np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Porii Sames]

While I'm not there yet, I'll say this much: I've had a single Lando sweep me and that was VERY late game. It was a RP version, though I'd say my team is rather weak to U-turn (I'd prefer to not reveal my team ATM).

Honestly, Lando doesn't seem all that broken.

Think of it like this:

Player 1 has Lando, Player 2 has Tenta

Player 2 can go to Latias

Player 1 can use U-turn on the predicted switchin or Earth Power on the double prediction

If Player 2 DOES go to Latias, and Player 1 DOES use EP, then P1 lost a shitload of momentum while P2 is able to predict the incoming Ttar and has successfully baited something out.

Should P2 leave in Tenta as P1 U-turns, then Tenta can Spin, set up a Sub, Toxic Spike, Scald the switchin for a potential burn, etc.

Now obviously, it could go either way. But there's still that risk, and, more notably, skill level that accompanies using Landorus-I, and that's where I find that it's not broken.

With Genesect, it required you to U-turn to scout counters and trap shit with Dugtrio. Kill things late game like Lucario with coverage moves. That's not skill. (I'm not saying Gene requires no skill to use; rather Landorus-I requires more due to its high risk/high reward nature).

I believe U-turn is very good for weakening up its usual counters, but honestly, what can't deal with a base 101 speed mon? Sure you lack switchins to it after your Celebi just got fucked over, but you're still able to easily pick it off with Scarf Keldeo since you now KNOW it can't set up and walk all over you.

I'm NOT suggesting U-turn is a bad set because it's definitely not. But it's not the apocalypse, everyone.

 

[Honus]

While I'm not there yet, I'll say this much: I've had a single Lando sweep me and that was VERY late game. It was a RP version, though I'd say my team is rather weak to U-turn (I'd prefer to not reveal my team ATM).

Honestly, Lando doesn't seem all that broken.

Think of it like this:

Player 1 has Lando, Player 2 has Tenta

Player 2 can go to Latias

Player 1 can use U-turn on the predicted switchin or Earth Power on the double prediction

If Player 2 DOES go to Latias, and Player 1 DOES use EP, then P1 lost a shitload of momentum while P2 is able to predict the incoming Ttar and has successfully baited something out.

Should P2 leave in Tenta as P1 U-turns, then Tenta can Spin, set up a Sub, Toxic Spike, Scald the switchin for a potential burn, etc.

Now obviously, it could go either way. But there's still that risk, and, more notably, skill level that accompanies using Landorus-I, and that's where I find that it's not broken.

With Genesect, it required you to U-turn to scout counters and trap shit with Dugtrio. Kill things late game like Lucario with coverage moves. That's not skill. (I'm not saying Gene requires no skill to use; rather Landorus-I requires more due to its high risk/high reward nature).

I believe U-turn is very good for weakening up its usual counters, but honestly, what can't deal with a base 101 speed mon? Sure you lack switchins to it after your Celebi just got fucked over, but you're still able to easily pick it off with Scarf Keldeo since you now KNOW it can't set up and walk all over you.

I'm NOT suggesting U-turn is a bad set because it's definitely not. But it's not the apocalypse, everyone.

I wouldn't really call Lando high risk and I think that's why it's so threatening. If it Epowers, then you lose your spinner, and possibly one of your counters to another mon [like Scarf Keldeo which is paired with Land a lot]. Now im just going to assume that the Latias is the standard cm one on stall teams like Meru's, obviously the lo ones with surf are a different story. If Latias comes in, then there's another prediction for your stall team to make, obviously this one's a bit more clear since Latias staying in to wall Landorus, but if Latias switches out then landorus is free to fire off an Earth power or U-Turn to get momentum back. Obviously there's more to a scenario than that like a weakened TTar [spikes and all that shit to take TTar out of the game is probably stalls best strategy against these types of teams], but Landorus has really only exhibited moderate risk, even if it does Epower and stay in to U-Turn on Latias/predicted switchin. Now if Lando U-Turns first, then sure, a layer of Tspikes is pretty big, as is a sub, scald to an extent too, even if they go to Latios or something, but again theres a really big risk for the opponent, and only a moderate one for Landorus. Worst case scenario is one of the aforementioned little victories for Tenta; Toxic spikes is probably the worst given TTar, but even then it's just 1 layer of Tspikes, plus Landorus got to switch in to another poke that beats Tenta. I think that this is one of the reasons why big L needs to be banned, he really has a disproportionate risk/reward scenario most of the time especially [and mostly] against defensive teams that basically have to rely on U-Turn weak pokemon to counter him. there's obviously a lot of ways to play around him and i'm sure we all have, whether defense, offense, or balance, but even one misstep with a U-Turn prediction can be disastrous for the opponent, whereas Landorus U-Turning the on a poke that isn't celebi/latias/etc just means he keeps momentum and loses 10% from LO [it adds up but again not a huge risk]

 

[ginganinja]

Player 1 has Lando, Player 2 has Tenta

Player 2 can go to Latias

Player 1 can use U-turn on the predicted switchin or Earth Power on the double prediction

If Player 2 DOES go to Latias, and Player 1 DOES use EP, then P1 lost a shitload of momentum while P2 is able to predict the incoming Ttar and has successfully baited something out.

Should P2 leave in Tenta as P1 U-turns, then Tenta can Spin, set up a Sub, Toxic Spike, Scald the switchin for a potential burn, etc.

Nice argument, and if I remember correctly the same argument people used to justify Tornadus-T being OU. On paper, it looks like a 50/50, however, in practise, this scenario is still heavily favoured in favour of the Landorus-I user, since the risk and reward factor means that staying in with your Tentacruel vs Landorus is the worse option.

Remember, it costs NOTHING for Landorus-I to simply use U-Turn, outside of losing 10% from Life Orb. The pressure is on the opponent to predict the correct move, and will be punished for predicting incorrectly. What's the worse case scenario for the Landorus-I user really? A safe switch to a Tentacruel counter if it stays in? Latias getting a free switch? Like sure, the above are annoying, gamebreaking? Not really. Now look at it from the side of the tentacruel user. If he predicts wrong, he loses his Tentacruel for free, something pretty significant. What about if he brings in Latias on the U-Turn, well in that case he loses his Landorus-I counter to the Tyranitar trap, for no real net gain AND still has to deal with Landorus-I when it next switches in.

Please bear the above in mind when you consider it a 50/50.

dan ninja'ed

 

[Nysyr]

Honestly, Lando doesn't seem all that broken.

Think of it like this:

Player 1 has Lando, Player 2 has Tenta

Player 2 can go to Latias

Player 1 can use U-turn on the predicted switchin or Earth Power on the double prediction

Nope doesn't work that way. They click EP and you flip the coin and bring in Latias. Then they sack whatever fodder they have to latias and would match up good vs anything that ttar is weak against. You have now lost your latias to TTar that just got in for free.

There are far less outs than you think.

Edit: 10 second ninjaed by ginga

Edit: Double ninjaed by a minute during editing too. My posting skills are weak.

@ Honus LO Latias typically runs HP fire, And I do believe LO surf still fails to kill standard bandtar in 2 hits...

Yep. Surf: 41.7 - 49.22% and thats 252 SpA latias vs 180 HP ttar when most latias run 184 SpA. I guess you could DM after one surf though. Its min-max dependant and requires you to run 252 SpA.

 

[Porii Sames]

I wouldn't really call Lando high risk and I think that's why it's so threatening. If it Epowers, then you lose your spinner, and possibly one of your counters to another mon [like Scarf Keldeo which is paired with Land a lot]. Now im just going to assume that the Latias is the standard cm one on stall teams like Meru's, obviously the lo ones with surf are a different story. If Latias comes in, then there's another prediction for your stall team to make, obviously this one's a bit more clear since Latias staying in to wall Landorus, but if Latias switches out then landorus is free to fire off an Earth power or U-Turn to get momentum back. Obviously there's more to a scenario than that like a weakened TTar [spikes and all that shit to take TTar out of the game is probably stalls best strategy against these types of teams], but Landorus has really only exhibited moderate risk, even if it does Epower and stay in to U-Turn on Latias/predicted switchin. Now if Lando U-Turns first, then sure, a layer of Tspikes is pretty big, as is a sub, scald to an extent too, even if they go to Latios or something, but again theres a really big risk for the opponent, and only a moderate one for Landorus. Worst case scenario is one of the aforementioned little victories for Tenta; Toxic spikes is probably the worst given TTar, but even then it's just 1 layer of Tspikes, plus Landorus got to switch in to another poke that beats Tenta. I think that this is one of the reasons why big L needs to be banned, he really has a disproportionate risk/reward scenario most of the time especially [and mostly] against defensive teams that basically have to rely on U-Turn weak pokemon to counter him. there's obviously a lot of ways to play around him and i'm sure we all have, whether defense, offense, or balance, but even one misstep with a U-Turn prediction can be disastrous for the opponent, whereas Landorus U-Turning the on a poke that isn't celebi/latias/etc just means he keeps momentum and loses 10% from LO [it adds up but again not a huge risk]

I'll agree, there's moderate risk, but even still many teams can at least get somewhat fucked over by Tentacruel, especially HO teams. Now I'm not attempting to throw this Lando argument into a Tentacruel viability discussion, but if the Lando player DOES mispredict, Tenta can Sub and Toxic stall the majority of common Landorus teammates (including weakening and most of the time defeating Band Ttar). And consider, what if this wasn't Tentacruel, but rather something like Heatran? Or anything Ground weak in the game that doesn't fear U-turn?

There's risk/reward to every move, and while Lando certainly has less of that because it's a very good poke, it still has to use a certain amount of risk.

@Ginga You bring up some good points, and I agree; perhaps I worded it wrong and made it seem too 50/50. Lando's still a high risk mon, but as for more of the U-turn side...

Say you bring in the Latias as the Lando player U-turns. (Also note: I only ever use LO Latias and consider that to be the best set by far). Lando brings Lati into Pursuit range, it Dmeteors the Ttar, gets Pursuited, etc. But U-turn Landorus cannot really sweep that well. It can switch in nicely thanks to its resistances and immunities, but it's just a tad too slow to really be THAT scary, with no way to boost any of its attacks.

Assuming Rocks + Surf + Draco with 184 SpA, does that not kill Ttar? Too lazy to calc. It's nothing huge, but eh.

 

[PK Gaming]

@Ginga You bring up some good points, and I agree; perhaps I worded it wrong and made it seem too 50/50. Lando's still a high risk mon, but as for more of the U-turn side...

What exactly makes Landorus a high risk Pokemon? It's a powerful Pokemon with decent defenses and an excellent typing that actually let's it switch into/set up on certain Pokemon. Sheer force effectively nullifies Life Orb recoil for most its moves, and it can use U-turn to get the best of its counters and flat out sweep teams on its own with Rock Polish.

I'd actually argue the opposite. It's opportunity cost is practically non-existent in comparison to other heavy hitters in the tier. Lati@s have to worry about Tyranitar / Steel-types, Hydreigon has to contend with its garbage Speed stat and terrible typing, Alakazam has to deal with weaker offenses if it opts to use Focus Sash. At worst Landorus has to deal with... not instantly winning a matchup if it predicts incorrectly?

So to reiterate, what exactly makes Landorus a high risk Pokemon?

 

[Nysyr]

Pokemon that can U-turn out of counters to traps will always be considered lower risk for the user, since Uturn/VS -> trapper is a broken mofo. Lando-I is no exception to this rule, and much like genesect if you predic the set wrong you better damn hope your counters/checks are healthy enough to take the hit. This is why I think that Lando-I is the biggest offender of this core. With Keldeo at least your counters need not be 100% healthy (EB can punch a hole if it gets a NP boost tho, scarf is locked to a move and EB keldeo can be revenged), and why I think he is the worst offender of the core. And even more similar to genesect, it can run a physical set which also has entirely different counters.

Lets be real we will never get rid of Ttar, just like we won't get rid of toed/tales, so we need to chip away at the offending core till we get something managable. I'm glad we are picking the most brainless part of the core.

 

[Porii Sames]

What exactly makes Landorus a high risk Pokemon? It's a powerful Pokemon with decent defenses and an excellent typing that actually let's it switch into/set up on certain Pokemon. Sheer force effectively nullifies Life Orb recoil for most its moves, and it can use U-turn to get the best of its counters and flat out sweep teams on its own with Rock Polish.

I'd actually argue the opposite. It's opportunity cost is practically non-existent in comparison to other heavy hitters in the tier. Lati@s have to worry about Tyranitar / Steel-types, Hydreigon has to contend with its garbage Speed stat and terrible typing, Alakazam has to deal with weaker offenses if it opts to use Focus Sash. At worst Landorus has to deal with... not instantly winning a matchup if it predicts incorrectly?

So to reiterate, what exactly makes Landorus a high risk Pokemon?

It just seems to me like it's more difficult to switch in, and having to rely on Focus Miss a lot of the times isn't optimal for me in the slightest. In theorymon, Focus Blast hits 100% of the time because we assume it does for the testing; such as how many calcs assume Rocks and the necessary weather (i.e. in the Exca test, it was always assumed that sand was up, otherwise Exca wouldn't be so dangerous).

I think a lot of people overlook how shitty Focus Blast is, which makes Lando higher risk to start. Focus Blast misses twice as much as Fire Blast (on average) and 3x as much as Draco Meteor; which are the lowest accuracy that Hydreigon and Lati@as are going to go respectively (I see Zam as less of a sweeper and more of an offensive pivot).

So that's one reason. The other is that there is still a lot of prep to be done for it to fully sweep - think of a Queen piece in chess. It's often tempting to just bring it out in the open to wreak havoc, but oftentimes you'll be punished for this. You need to clear out Scizor and weaken everything up JUST enough for it to get a good sweep, which is often a requirement for any sweeper - Terrakion, CM Keldeo, SD Breloom, etc. It's rarely easy for something to just come right in early-mid game and just sweep 24/7, and Landorus-I is, IMO, no exception. There's just a lot able to check it, honestly - if you could run 5 moves then it would fuck up so much shit it wouldn't even be funny, but that's not how it is.

Let's look at the top 10 for a second, shall we?

| 1 | Scizor |23.48928%|
| 2 | Ferrothorn |19.98081%|
| 3 | Politoed |18.90903%|
| 4 | Dragonite |17.23408%|
| 5 | Heatran |16.58880%|
| 6 | Jirachi |15.41532%|
| 7 | Tyranitar |15.18391%|
| 8 | Latios |14.47189%|
| 9 | Breloom |13.40895%|
| 10 | Garchomp |13.22152%|


252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 177-208 (55.48 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now BP isn't doing a huge amount to Landorus, percentage wise, but after Rocks (Lando switching in initally), Life Orb damage (from U-turn genereally), and Rocks damage again, it's down to around 65%; meaning that it's within KO range of BP (it's unlikely, but forcing it to HP Ice somewhere along the way spells death for it).

Scizor has spelled death for many sweepers; Landorus can handle it better than many, but it's still a hindrance to it.

Ferro doesn't directly fuck it over, but if it U-turns off of Ferro then it's in for quite a bit of damage.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.71 - 58.8%) -- 67.19% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 309-367 (87.78 - 104.26%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

*didn't include rocks on first calc because unnecessary for demonstration

Ferro is no solid check to Lando-T, but it forces Lando to use Focus Blast on it if it RPs on the switch (hell, or U-turns, or even HP Ices, I'm pretty sure that HP Ice + Rocks + EP doesn't kill Ferro). Lando can easily kill Ferro with Focus Blast should Focus Blast hit. But if it doesn't...


0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 168-198 (52.66 - 62.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Similar to Scizor, that's not a huge amount. It's only especially dangerous if Lando misses another Focus Blast, which isn't likely, or it hits a low damage roll. Ferro's then free to 2HKO with Gyro Ball.

Now stop.

I can hear what you're saying. I can hear you screaming it through your keyboard.

"What if Lando EP's on the switchin and kills Ferro off the bat?"

That's a possibility, a strong one at that. But we cannot assume that every Lando player has a. perfect prediction and b. perfect luck. Landorus is less dependent on these than the average sweeper, but these things imo MUST be taken into consideration for this suspect test.

Politoed:


252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 230-270 (71.42 - 83.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Politoed: 165-195 (42.96 - 50.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (No rocks; I'm assuming Protect on the Toed)

Now I know that Toed isn't a fantastic answer to Lando in any way. The first calc is primarily to demonstrate that Scarf Toed can easily tank a hit from Lando (unless, of course, it U-turns) and KO back (don't fucking ask me for calcs).

SpD Toed is very rare, yes, but it can avoid the 2HKO from Landorus. This calc isn't really important, but it's there.

Dragonite:


252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite ExtremeSpeed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 160-189 (50.15 - 59.24%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It can switch in on 4 out of its 5 moves most run moves, take out over half its health (around 65% after it takes the LO to kill you with HP Ice), and it's not an especially great check.

Heatran can only check it if it's Air Balloon but that's such shit that I won't even try to convince anyone with calcs.

Rachi too, fuck that. I mean, Scarf with Ice Punch kills it yeah, it can switch in on anything but EP or RP and go from there, but that's shaky at best.

LolTTar

Latios is widely regarded as one of Landorus' best checks.

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 190-226 (63.12 - 75.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 169-200 (56.14 - 66.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 93-110 (30.89 - 36.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


U-turn royally fucks over Latios, nuff said.


252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Landorus: 306-360 (95.92 - 112.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


In other words, with no boost whatsoever, Latios always kills Lando with DMeteor after Rocks, no questions asked.

Breloom takes a shitload of damage from each of Lando's main attack sets (I won't bother calcing, I'm pretty sure it gets 2HKOd by all of them).

Garchomp:

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 214-253 (67.08 - 79.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Only calc I feel needed to provide; Scarf Chomp can't really do a huge amount to it. There's a chance for Rocks + LO + Outrage to kill Lando, but that's stretching things.

What's the point of all these calcs? What's the point of this long-ass post?

It's to show that there are so many damn situational ways to deal damage to Lando from shit that's not normally, strictly speaking, meant to damage it.

But how does any of this show high-risk, high-reward? How is Landorus really all that risky?

It boils down to the shaky Focus Blast accuracy, and the fact that you're under pressure with every percent of damage you take from Stealth Rock and Life Orb (or even from shit like switching in on Scarf Keldeo's Secret Sword).

Granted, if you get it in safely on something that HAS to switch (Keldeo locked into Sword, Tar locked into Pursuit, switching in to Celebi's TWave, etc.) then you're ready to start fucking shit over.

But this is a meta where we have shit like Rock Gem Terrakion, Dual Dance Thundurus, and Cube, hitting hard with relatively low counters is something that seems commonplace.

As for the U-turn Landorus, a list of the top 30 Pokes that outspeed and fuck up Landorus: (Bold does normally, Red commonly runs Scarf and does so as well, Blue has strong priority that 2HKOs itl.) Bonus, Green is what straight up screws it over up front

| 1 | Scizor
| 2 | Ferrothorn
| 3 | Politoed
| 4 | Dragonite
| 5 | Heatran
| 6 | Jirachi
| 7 | Tyranitar
| 8 | Latios
| 9 | Breloom
| 10 | Garchomp
| 11 | Rotom-Wash (blah blah Scarf Rotom-W is shit)
| 12 | Keldeo
| 13 | Starmie
| 14 | Terrakion
| 15 | Alakazam
| 16 | Gengar
| 17 | Landorus-Therian
| 18 | Celebi
| 19 | Ninetales
| 20 | Skarmory
| 21 | Salamence (Outrage + Rocks + LO normally kills Lando)
| 22 | Forretress
| 23 | Volcarona
| 24 | Gliscor
| 25 | Tentacruel
| 26 | Jellicent
| 27 | Mamoswine
| 28 | Landorus
| 29 | Thundurus-Therian
| 30 | Gyarados

All of this to say, there's a lot of shit out there that can fuck over Lando depending on what moves it runs - and no matter what, you're not making Focus Blast's accuracy any better.

Should you choose to run RP, another fine option, you still have

Celebi
Lati@s
Gengar
SpD Rotom (esp. ChestoRest)
Gyarados
Bliss/Chans (don't give me bullshit, these can check fully special variants just fine)

So, with this monolith completed, these are all of my thoughts on why Lando-I is not broken, merely a very strong sweeper that is capable of screwing over a lot of common OU mons.

 

[malefic]

Made reqs for both ladders; ran sand-semi-offence on the suspect ladder and HO on the current and am currently tentatively leaning towards a no-ban.

Thoughts:

• I did not see much of Landorus-I on the (current) ladder. When I did see it, it was quickly dispatched with the appropriate move, usually priority. Since I was running HO with CBZor, LO Latios, and EBelt Keldy, handling Lando was far easier than it would be for balanced teams.
• With that said, Balanced teams should also be able to decently handle Lando-I with the aid of priority which I feel is crucial in the current meta, Landy or no Landy. As long as pokemon like Lati@s, Keldy, and scarfed Dragons continue to dominate the metagame, (at least one, preferably two sources of) priority should be considered (psst Ice Shard is a great move) when teambuilding (offensive or balanced teams). Being trashed by Landorus-I due to a lack of priority (or losing sources of priority early) on one's team should not be an excuse for banning it.
• With regard to the above point, I am not implying stall teams should include users of priority simply to beat landy. That said, the current meta is in a state where all but the best stall teams (offhand I can think of about 2) are unable to thrive leading to stall as a playstyle slowly being phased out.. This cannot be attributed fully to the prevalence of landy; instead it should be atttributed to the move offensive nature of the current iteration of the OU meta. Till more defensive options are made available, stall as a playstyle will remain weak and relatively ineffective with or without Landorus-I.
• Landy has made users far more watchful in their -previously- indiscriminate usage of SPdef rachi, as well as Choice-locked moves which it resists. This is surely good as players are forced to think and pivot more carefully around problems faced rather than solving them by mindlessly spamming abusable pokemon/moves.
• The suspect ladder, notably, allowed me to showcase the prowess of TR reuniclus as an endgame sweeper; this is a reminder for us to be more aware of our opponents' teams and not play sloppily once they feel the odds are in their favor at some point mid/early-game; going back on topic players facing off against Landy should be more aware of what pokes on their team check it/abruptly end its sweep and consequently use those pokemon more prudently (e.g. conserving sciz's health instead of using it to threaten the opponent's team -and rack up chip damage- indiscriminately).
• Scizor is a ridiculously good pokemon whose position on the usage statistics should only be higher; given the current state of the meta it is integral to offensive teams and should always be considered and reconsidered on balanced teams.

Interestingly, 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 273-321 (79.59 - 93.58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Schpoonman]

Okay. Thoughts so far on the ladder: Landorus has not been a problem. At all. It helps that my laddering team only has 2, sometimes 3 things that he can even set up on without taking it on the chin, but I'm just not seeing him as such a huge problem. Go figure.

I do have a question. I'm getting dangerously close to reqs, but I'm worried that I'm basically boned on actually breaking 2000 when I get to 65 deviation.

Can I still break 2000 or do I need to start over?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

eh, I would go for it, you might win like the next 5-10 games straight and get over 2000 you never know, you still have a shot IMO, but don't be to shocked if it doesn't pan out

A lot of the advice I got on the first page helped me get regs, if you lose any early games start a new alt. Also I find if you play during the day the matches are easier, that may not be great for fighting good players on the ladder, but at least you get regs.

 

[Nysyr]

Pretty good point was made earlier for pokes that are required to come from DW should be forced to show a dream ball next to the sprite or something, that removes the onus of determining sheer force vs sand force.

 

[X5Dragon]

The thing that makes Landrus OK for me so far and separates it from Genesect is how easy it is to land priorities on it, when you've got Ice Shard, ES and BP (I used SD LO Scizor) on top of taking neutral damage from SR. I always use at least two priorities in my team so that usually helps. I keep thinking that if Keledo weren't there how easy would it be since neither Landrous or TTar enjoys eating a boosted BP.

Edit: I found myself a good team, I'm gonna try to get reqs before the 30th...

 

[MikeDawg]

"I run hyper offense, so landorus isn't broken" is the most absurd reasoning i have ever heard.

Try to read correctly and not extrapolate, then everything will become less "absurd" to you. He's totally right about the priorities difference between Gene and Lando. That's not an arguement to justify an OU verdict though, in my opinion.

That was not the post i was refrrring to...

Since I was running HO with CBZor, LO Latios, and EBelt Keldy, handling Lando was far easier than it would be for balanced teams.

Balanced teams should also be able to decently handle Lando-I

 

[Reymedy]

Try to read correctly and not extrapolate, then everything will become less "absurd" to you. He's totally right about the priorities difference between Gene and Lando. That's not an arguement to justify an OU verdict though, in my opinion.

 

[malefic]

"I run hyper offense, so landorus isn't broken" is the most absurd reasoning i have ever heard.

You aren't even extrapolating - you're outright misconstruing my words. I'll just repeat what I typed word for word: since I was running HO with CBZor, LO Latios, and EBelt Keldy, handling Lando was far easier than it would be for balanced teams. How does that sound like "i run hyper offence so landy isn't broken", I don't know.

 

[MikeDawg]

You aren't even extrapolating - you're outright misconstruing my words. I'll just repeat what I typed word for word: since I was running HO with CBZor, LO Latios, and EBelt Keldy, handling Lando was far easier than it would be for balanced teams. How does that sound like "i run hyper offence so landy isn't broken", I don't know.

You noted that you are leaning toward not broken
Said that you run hyper offense so lando is not a problem for you at all (so obviously it isn't broken duh)
And then just "inferred" that balance /should/ be able to handle it just as easily
With no playtesting
No anything

Had you already played against lando with MORE THAN ONE playstyle (which just happens to not care about it) and then had some preconceived desicion and just used HO to ladder, it would be fine.

But clearly that was not the case and you are just now coming to a conclusion, and while the suspect test /should/ be ideally used for that purpose, only looking at it from one, somewhat of a minority, perspective makes you blind to the entire lesson.

Landy has made users far more watchful in their -previously- indiscriminate usage of SPdef rachi, as well as Choice-locked moves which it resists. This is surely good as players are forced to think and pivot more carefully around problems faced rather than solving them by mindlessly spamming abusable pokemon/moves.

And also this is completely backwards.

 

[G-Von]

I just want to make a quick note that I've been doing pretty damn well with a CM Lando with EP/FB/HP Ice. How people have not been running this is beyond me.

 

[Neliel]

Since i did the reqs, i think i should leave my thoughts here.
Honestly i've never fought a lando-i. Ever. this is probably due to the bad level of the users i fought, i found people with spinda, magmortar and stuff like that even when i was around 1900, so i cant give a verdict based on the ladder.
However, due to my past experience with lando, i can say ill vote for uber, not because its "broken", but because it always affects my builds so much, forcing me to always use at least a check for it on every team (gengar in custap offense, celebi in sand, cresselia in sun ect) and even then you can still lose to it if you found the u-turn one of if its paired with scarf ttar or if it has psichic and so on.

 

[blitzlefan]

Since i did the reqs, i think i should leave my thoughts here.
Honestly i've never fought a lando-i. Ever. this is probably due to the bad level of the users i fought, i found people with spinda, magmortar and stuff like that even when i was around 1900, so i cant give a verdict based on the ladder.
However, due to my past experience with lando, i can say ill vote for uber, not because its "broken", but because it always affects my builds so much, forcing me to always use at least a check for it on every team (gengar in custap offense, celebi in sand, cresselia in sun ect) and even then you can still lose to it if you found the u-turn one of if its paired with scarf ttar or if it has psichic and so on.

But is this really a bad thing? Would you go without a check for any powerful Pokemon? Teams without some sort of check or a way around a certain Pokemon (e.g. Landorus-I, Keldeo, Terrakion, Latios), are probably going to get screwed even if the Pokemon in question isn't broken.

 

[X5Dragon]

The way I see it, there is a huge difference between sticking a special/defensive wall for balancing purposes and sticking certain pokemon for the sole purpose of countering a single threat.

It gets kind of tricky sometimes, Gastrdon for example was great special wall against rain teams but it had a more specific calling, to stop Thundrus.

 

[Lavos]

porii actually brings up what i think is the most solid anti-ban argument i've heard in a while. bringing landorus in, especially against offensive teams, really is a pain in the ass. especially against teams that are packing two or more of the bolded pokemon that he lists above (i.e. latios, latias, gengar, keldeo, terrakion, etc.) it's actually pretty difficult. i often find myself only able to bring in landorus via u-turn/volt switch or by having to execute a double switch, which is inherently risky. despite how much i'd like to agree with pk gaming and co. arguing landorus isn't risky, it definitely is. i recognize that in the lucario scenario, it's definitely a higher risk for the lucario to stay in than it is for the landorus to u-turn. however, in an extremely high level of play (think smogon tour), risk/reward is understood by both players and then often disregarded to make better predictions. for example, my opponent has landorus in vs my lucario. i know the landorus has u-turn, and i have a pretty solid check called gyarados waiting in the wings to tank that. however, the u-turn is so painfully obvious, and the risk of leaving lucario in is so great, that i leave it in and swords dance anyways, putting my opponent in a really uncomfortable scenario. on paper, it doesn't sound smart, but it often works.

tl;dr: prediction and risk/reward arguments can only go so far for either side. it's raw experience that really determines which side of the fence you fall on. not saying arguing about it is pointless (during the kyurem-b test, i had three voting users come to me and say i changed their minds), but in the end, you can only theorymon a certain amount before it becomes obsolete.

 

[Neliel]

Let me rephrase it then
lets say i want to build a sand stall, almost any of them has a grass type on it, which is probably the pokemon you will have to check lando
Your choices are celebi, defensive loom, amoonguss, (ferrothorn?), shayming and tangrowth
its quite obvious that if you chose one of these not called bpass celebi (which still lose to u-turn!) you will have your sand stall ruined by lando. But lets say you want to use tangrowth, then you have to find something else only to take care of it. The only two things that comes to mind that checks lando other than celebi are defensive latias and zapdos.. i cant really say they are the best pokemon to use right know, with latias blocked by any steel type and trapped by ttar and zapdos being sr weak and 2koed anyway by hp ice...
This is what i mean by forcing my teambuildings, if you dont use sp def celebi in sand stall team you have to use generally bad things only to take care of one pokemon (maybe more than one, but for sure less stuff than celebi)

same thing goes for sunny teams, is there anything other than cresselia that can counter it? cresselia isnt bad for sure, but should i ALWAYS use it? not to mention that cresselia its still ttar bait...
So in the end, i think that lando is an unhealty presence for the metagame and therefore it should be banned.

 

[BKC]

the fact that some people think that it is totally reasonable to handle lando by having a check as well as perfect prediction when lando comes in so your check doesn't get screwed over on the switch just screams that something is wrong to me.

 

[PK Gaming]

@Porii Sames

With all due respect, I don't think you understand the concept of a high risk Pokemon. Being countered / checked by Pokemon does not make you a high risk Pokemon. A high risk Pokemon is a Pokemon that has initially has negative net worth when used on a team. High risk Pokemon can potentially be devastating (why else would you use them?) but they can also be a severe liability because of a flaw that makes them a high risk Pokemon in the first place.

There is no negative penalty for using Landorus on any given team. It does not make you more vulnerable to a specific Pokemon or team style by using it. It has weaknesses, but much like Blaziken or Excadrill (or any Uber) they can be covered fairly easily by teammates. It has the benefit of being able to avoid grounded hazards and bypass the drawback of being a flying type (Stealth Rock weaknesses) and a semi complete immunity to Life Orb. Landorus can be thrown on pretty much any offensive team and actually has a positive matchup against most (if not all) weather styles. (For example, it can legitimately sweep sun teams after a Rock Polish, for example). Those aspects are largely the reason why it can invalidate a playsyle (Stall) by itself.

Examples of actual High Risk Pokemon:
-Hydreigon in OU
-Yanmega and Zoroark in UU
-Moltres, Durant and Archeops in RU
-Altaria and Driflblim in NU

Concerning Focus Blast:

Focus Blast is an important coverage move, but it doesn't define Landorus. Nobody is claiming that Focus Blast hits 100% of the time, but you can't assume it'll always miss either. At the very least, the existence of Focus Blast allows Landorus to beat Pokemon it wouldn't ordinarily be able to. (Landorus w/o Focus Blast isn't even suspect worthy)

Landorus needing prep time:

Landorus does not need significant prep time to sweep. I don't think I really need to explain this, since we've already gone through several dozen pages of people complaining about Landorus / Tyranitar Pursuit cores. It's typing actually let's it set up on a lot of Pokemon (It has a handy resistance to Fighting and Ground)

It's fine to say Landorus isn't broken, but calling it a high risk Pokemon demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of the concept of high risk.