np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Conflict]

Im wondering how i got so far in ost (and 4-1 in superstars bw round) without ever using lando-i and facing some and not going out of my way to counter it (i.e. using bw1 teams....)?

I also saw Lando-I rarely sweeping whole teams in SPL, STourfinals or WCoP matches....

Someone explain plz? How does this discrepancy exist?

 

[X5Dragon]

Can I ask the guys who are voting in favor to ban whether they want to do so because they would like to nerf the T-L-K core or because of Landrus himself?

Because if it is the latter, then his RP set shouldn't be treated any differently than say, DD dancer like Dragonite and the like, or his other set in which he has to make sure he lands those kills otherwise someone is gonna put a big hole into him (and not be out sped by scarfers)?

 

[BurningMan]

porii actually brings up what i think is the most solid anti-ban argument i've heard in a while. bringing landorus in, especially against offensive teams, really is a pain in the ass. especially against teams that are packing two or more of the bolded pokemon that he lists above (i.e. latios, latias, gengar, keldeo, terrakion, etc.) it's actually pretty difficult. i often find myself only able to bring in landorus via u-turn/volt switch or by having to execute a double switch, which is inherently risky. despite how much i'd like to agree with pk gaming and co. arguing landorus isn't risky, it definitely is.

Yeah Lando can be really hard to bring in against offensive teams and especially U-Turn version don't fare that well against them. Another problem is that Landorus main stab while esiely spammable due to no LO recoil has just so many things that are outright immune to it. Also many people say you can just spam U-Turn and ruin its counters, but in reality you usually have 2 Pokemon that can counter/check Landorus-I say you have something like Celebie/Latias + a Rotom-W/Landorus-T the first thing you do is send in the Pokemon that wouldn't get completly fucked by U-Turn and earth power, sure Landorus has a way to damage both of these Pokemon, but especially early game people are unlikely to over predict and choose that move (unless what ever Landorus-I is up against is also weak against those moves).
I often get the feeling that in the suspect test threads the Pokemon that is suspected is always assumed to have all possible move sets at once plus team support and the enemy team only consists of one of the suspects counters that is played by an idiot. i might be exeggarting here, but in actual play it is always 6v6 and this is were theorymon often doesn't work anymore.

 

[Porii Sames]

the fact that some people think that it is totally reasonable to handle lando by having a check as well as perfect prediction when lando comes in so your check doesn't get screwed over on the switch just screams that something is wrong to me.

Take what you just said, and reverse it.

Say you make a team and all you have is a check to, say, Scarf Keldeo (fuck what anyone thinks, Scarf Keldeo is not inherently broken). Now when playing Scarf Keldeo with only one check (let's say here, I don't know, offensive LO Celebi. Bear with me for a moment).

252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 152-180 (42.81 - 50.7%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

So if you switch in on the HP Ice with rocks down, you're fucked either way tbh.

But Scarf Keldeo users know that, generally speaking, it's rare to use HP Ice seeing as how it has rather limited use compared to its other moves. Celebi isn't 2HKOd by anything else Keldeo has, rain boosted Hydro Pumps aside.

Your opponent knows that your only real answer to Keldeo is your Celebi. So what does your opponent focus on? Fucking up Celebi, of course.

Back to the Landorus argument - I'm not saying throw a Scizor on your team and you'll have no Lando troubles, that's a shit argument. What I AM saying is that your check is just that - a check. If Keldeo HP Ices later, maybe you can bring in your Volcarona and QD, meaning that Celebi is a successful check because your opponent rarely ever wants to use that HP Ice on Keldeo (against any team, not just theorymon).

Now look at this in regards to Landorus:

You have something which, despite good bulk and defensive typing, is difficult to switch in directly. You physically cannot do all that you want to with 4 moveslots - and most sweepers are, to a certain extent, able to (Garchomp, Breloom, CM Keldeo, etc.)

On top of that, even though you're not choiced, you have to predict very well. Don't give me shit about "I predict well" or "in the hands of a skilled player" because it's not about all of that, it comes down to damn luck whether or not your Landorus dies because you used Rock Polish instead of just killing that Tentacruel with Earth Power.

It's not "perfect prediction". There is no such thing and it's utter bullshit how much that gets brought up in theorymon. Any high-powered OU sweeper is broken with "perfect prediction". Lando requires less than normal since it doesn't need to go choiced, but it's still not broken.

Additionally, making one prediction that can do just that much more damage to Lando that puts it closer to BP range, or that can screw over the opponent's team is a part of Pokemon. Do I lead with Terrakion because I think he'll lead with Ttar, or do I lead Heatran because he might also lead with Forry? Terrakion vs. Forry is an easy kill for Forry with Gyro, Ttar vs. Tran usually favours Ttar. Granted, these choices aren't normally as massive as "do I switch anticipating the Earth Power or stay in on the now over-predicted Rock Polish?" but they are EVERYWHERE.

tl;dr Lando isn't broken

 

[Chan]

Landorus is popular at the moment and has access to U-Turn which is always a blessing, but I've never found him to be broken in a sense. He's quite potent packing the strength needed to effectively sweep teams with simply a Rock Polish boost, but I don't necessarily see him as an issue when so many things can do what he can do. He's nothing more than a fearsome pokemon who can set up for revenge or capitalize on poor plays. Wobbuffet can do the same thing arguably better, but everyone seems to have forgotten just how annoying and terrifying he can be.

If you miss an opportunity, you could call it gg by letting that Moxie Gyarados, Volcarona, CM Jirachi, or anything else set up on you to sweep and that's just the BW2 Metagame. The issue is a whole lot deeper than Landorus-I and while he may be in a similar scenario as DPP Salamence at the time of his ban, I think it is the core issues brought on by Gen 5 that have created so many monstrosities like Landorus-I.

 

[Porii Sames]

@Porii Sames

With all due respect, I don't think you understand the concept of a high risk Pokemon. Being countered / checked by Pokemon does not make you a high risk Pokemon. A high risk Pokemon is a Pokemon that has initially has negative net worth when used on a team. High risk Pokemon can potentially be devastating (why else would you use them?) but they can also be a severe liability because of a flaw that makes them a high risk Pokemon in the first place.

There is no negative penalty for using Landorus on any given team. It does not make you more vulnerable to a specific Pokemon or team style by using it. It has weaknesses, but much like Blaziken or Excadrill (or any Uber) they can be covered fairly easily by teammates. It has the benefit of being able to avoid grounded hazards and bypass the drawback of being a flying type (Stealth Rock weaknesses) and a semi complete immunity to Life Orb. Landorus can be thrown on pretty much any offensive team and actually has a positive matchup against most (if not all) weather styles. (For example, it can legitimately sweep sun teams after a Rock Polish, for example). Those aspects are largely the reason why it can invalidate a playsyle (Stall) by itself.

Examples of actual High Risk Pokemon:
-Hydreigon in OU
-Yanmega and Zoroark in UU
-Moltres, Durant and Archeops in RU
-Altaria and Driflblim in NU

Concerning Focus Blast:

Focus Blast is an important coverage move, but it doesn't define Landorus. Nobody is claiming that Focus Blast hits 100% of the time, but you can't assume it'll always miss either. At the very least, the existence of Focus Blast allows Landorus to beat Pokemon it wouldn't ordinarily be able to. (Landorus w/o Focus Blast isn't even suspect worthy)

Landorus needing prep time:

Landorus does not need significant prep time to sweep. I don't think I really need to explain this, since we've already gone through several dozen pages of people complaining about Landorus / Tyranitar Pursuit cores. It's typing actually let's it set up on a lot of Pokemon (It has a handy resistance to Fighting and Ground)

It's fine to say Landorus isn't broken, but calling it a high risk Pokemon demonstrates a severe misunderstanding of the concept of high risk.

I'm not saying high risk as in "glass cannon" or anything like that (unrelated note, I'm not seeing how Hydreigon is high risk either). Lando is high risk because the used has SO much pressure on them and just one fuckup and they lose their Landorus. It could be in the form of U-turning and taking too much damage and Scizor killing you, or overpredicting and having Tenta do too much to you with Scald leading to the same end result.

I literally cannot disagree with you more that there is "no negative penalty to using Landorus on any specific team". You have to provide team support (generally in the form of Ttar), have something to switchin for the general Landorus counters (say Gyarados), you need to make sure its HP doesn't drop too low and do every thing imaginable to stop it from getting into KO range of priority moves, if running RP (and even if you're not, it's still pretty damn important).

Yes, it fucks up sun pretty badly. Yes, it has all those key qualities you listed. There's no debating that. I will debate you on the weather issue - it does well vs sun teams should you get it in (i.e. you come in on Xatu while it Roosts) but it's just good vs. others, it's not like MK in Smash Bros in that it just has positive matchups across the board with all team types, but it's certainly threatening to many of the common types found there.

It's the unspoken logic that Lando probanners use as far as Focus Blast goes.

"Doesn't Specially Defensive Skarmory check Landorus pretty well?"
"No, Focus Blast does 54.79 - 64.67% and 2HKOs without rocks"
"What if Focus Blast misses (or, here's a novel fucking idea, they don't Focus Blast on the switch?) and Skarm stalls it out with Roost?"
"What if it doesn't?"

Nobody explicitly says it always hits, but everyone knows it's a shitty move to rely on and I feel that it's often overlooked just how often it misses. I know it's likely to hit most of the time, but it's not proportionate to how it seems to be made out here.

 

[reyscarface]

I'm not saying high risk as in "glass cannon" or anything like that (unrelated note, I'm not seeing how Hydreigon is high risk either). Lando is high risk because the used has SO much pressure on them and just one fuckup and they lose their Landorus. It could be in the form of U-turning and taking too much damage and Scizor killing you, or overpredicting and having Tenta do too much to you with Scald leading to the same end result

completely wrong, the pressure is on the opponent not on the landorus user. if landorus mispredicts, worst thing that can happen is a switch to take on something. if the opponent predicts wrong however, they lose a pokemon. who the fuck brings in landorus on a scald

srsly can we stop acting like the landorus user is a braindead 4 year old.

 

[Porii Sames]

completely wrong, the pressure is on the opponent not on the landorus user. if landorus mispredicts, worst thing that can happen is a switch to take on something. if the opponent predicts wrong whoever, they lose a pokemon. who the fuck brings in landorus on a scald

srsly can we stop acting like the landorus user is a braindead 4 year old.

First off, think about shit before responding. I'm not saying switch Landorus in on Scald. I was assuming it was Tenta vs. Lando, a matchup I'd brought up earlier and I'm sure has been brought up plenty, and I was saying the decision of whether to Earth Power or Rock Polish is a huge risk and places pressure on both opponents.

I should have been more specific, yes. It places insane pressure on the opponent, unless they have like 1 counter + 2 checks to it in which case they're normally fine, but I agree with you on that part.

The pressure is still on the Lando player to get it in safely, keep it out of KO range from priority if you're running RP and predicting if you're running U-turn (don't say you can just spam U-turn because Lando isn't fast enough to do that, takes LO recoil, and it's doesn't hit particularly hard a la Rotom-W's Volt Switch).

Any non-broken sweeper puts pressure on both the user and the opponent.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

This argument is inconsequential overall, IMO the important points of this threat have already been made and discussed.

It's the unspoken logic that Lando probanners use as far as Focus Blast goes.

"Doesn't Specially Defensive Skarmory check Landorus pretty well?"
"No, Focus Blast does 54.79 - 64.67% and 2HKOs without rocks"
"What if Focus Blast misses (or, here's a novel fucking idea, they don't Focus Blast on the switch?) and Skarm stalls it out with Roost?"
"What if it doesn't?"

Nobody explicitly says it always hits, but everyone knows it's a shitty move to rely on and I feel that it's often overlooked just how often it misses. I know it's likely to hit most of the time, but it's not proportionate to how it seems to be made out here.

This ticked me off a bit, it is no blindly ignoring the reality of the situation. Ok, yeah Focus Blast will only 2HKO 49% of the time because of misses, yeah you have us there... but wait that is almost literally a 50 / 50 scenario, half of the time you are literally losing your Landorus check, and would be pretty much lose as your team is eaten by Landorus's Earth Power, ripping large holes in your team for the opponent to exploit... 49% of the time, I don't see how you can find that acceptable.

This is ignoring other factors to, 21% of the time Landorus will score a special defense drop, and if one really does just spam Focus Blast, factoring in an average of 5 hits, Landorus will crit and 1HKO 28% of the time. So lets see, factoring in all the ways one can be screwed, Skarm will only come out on top... 37% of the time!

SpD Skarm is a really shitty check to Landorus, and don't pretend it isn't.

sheer force cancels out SDef drops

yep, doh!

also I did a calculation error the first time through, ignore that 3%

 

[Cherub Agent]

This is ignoring other factors to, 21% of the time Landorus will score a special defense drop, and if one really does just spam Focus Blast, factoring in an average of 5 hits, Landorus will crit and 1HKO 28% of the time. So lets see, factoring in all the ways one can be screwed, Skarm will only come out on top... 3% of the time!

sheer force cancels out SDef drops

 

[Porii Sames]

This argument is inconsequential overall, IMO the important points of this threat have already been made and discussed.

This ticked me off a bit, it is no blindly ignoring the reality of the situation. Ok, yeah Focus Blast will only 2HKO 49% of the time because of misses, yeah you have us there... but wait that is almost literally a 50 / 50 scenario, half of the time you are literally losing your Landorus check, and would be pretty much lose as your team is eaten by Landorus's Earth Power, ripping large holes in your team for the opponent to exploit... 49% of the time, I don't see how you can find that acceptable.

This is ignoring other factors to, 21% of the time Landorus will score a special defense drop, and if one really does just spam Focus Blast, factoring in an average of 5 hits, Landorus will crit and 1HKO 28% of the time. So lets see, factoring in all the ways one can be screwed, Skarm will only come out on top... 29% of the time!

SpD Skarm is a really shitty check to Landorus, and don't pretend it isn't.

Onto serious matters: assuming they do indeed Focus Blast when you come in, it's 50/50 off the bat. i.e. HALF of the time, Lando breaks through this check. That's a pretty fair check to me.

Now yes, there's the crit chances; I won't deny that. There's also the chances of Skarm not coming in to Focus Blast, not a numerical chance, no, but it's still there. Lando spams U-turn and Earth Power, not Focus Blast.

SpD Skarm's not a great check to Landorus, I wouldn't call it "really shitty" by any means. I mean I certainly wouldn't have it as my only answer to Lando, but alongside a Lati or BP Celebi it's not bad.

 

[reyscarface]

First off, think about shit before responding. I'm not saying switch Landorus in on Scald. I was assuming it was Tenta vs. Lando, a matchup I'd brought up earlier and I'm sure has been brought up plenty, and I was saying the decision of whether to Earth Power or Rock Polish is a huge risk and places pressure on both opponents.

I should have been more specific, yes. It places insane pressure on the opponent, unless they have like 1 counter + 2 checks to it in which case they're normally fine, but I agree with you on that part.

The pressure is still on the Lando player to get it in safely, keep it out of KO range from priority if you're running RP and predicting if you're running U-turn (don't say you can just spam U-turn because Lando isn't fast enough to do that, takes LO recoil, and it's doesn't hit particularly hard a la Rotom-W's Volt Switch).

Any non-broken sweeper puts pressure on both the user and the opponent.

its not hard at fucking all to get landorus in when you can have a team full of uturn / volt switch users and get him in for free every single turn. btw those teams are insanely good.

I also love how everyone assumes LO will kill off landorus, holy shit. ive played over 100 games with lando in the past 3 days alone and i havent died to LO recoild due to uturn spam once. its called being fucking smart about it, and if youre arguing from the point of view of an idiot then thats not worth arguing. uturn makes you lose 10% of your health, SR (if its up) will make you lose 12%. first off, getting SR up against an offensive team to begin with is hard. especially those uturn spam teams i just talked about, you wont get SR up soon at all unless you get lucky with your opponent being dumb in lead select.
and lando is definitely fast enough to do that, because he comes in on shit like: heatran, tentacruel, celebi, forretress, all of which will either be KOd or switches out to possibly get hit by uturn.

also can we please ban the word rock polish from this thread pls. if ppl think rock polish landorus is the problematic set then they shouldnt be talking.

 

[Porii Sames]

its not hard at fucking all to get landorus in when you can have a team full of uturn / volt switch users and get him in for free every single turn. btw those teams are insanely good.

I also love how everyone assumes LO will kill off landorus, holy shit. ive played over 100 games with lando in the past 3 days alone and i havent died to LO recoild due to uturn spam once. its called being fucking smart about it, and if youre arguing from the point of view of an idiot then thats not worth arguing. uturn makes you lose 10% of your health, SR (if its up) will make you lose 12%. first off, getting SR up against an offensive team to begin with is hard. especially those uturn spam teams i just talked about, you wont get SR up soon at all unless you get lucky with your opponent being dumb in lead select.
and lando is definitely fast enough to do that, because he comes in on shit like: heatran, tentacruel, celebi, forretress, all of which will either be KOd or switches out to possibly get hit by uturn.

also can we please ban the word rock polish from this thread pls. if ppl think rock polish landorus is the problematic set then they shouldnt be talking.

If you Voltturn it in then yeah, that's a free and easy switchin, but barring that, Lando's pretty damn hard to get in directly.

LO recoil doesn't kill Lando, I would never say that because it's a dumbass thing to say. What it does do is brings it into the KO range of attacks that wouldn't kill it ordinarily, like Bullet Punch.

 

[reyscarface]

and guess what, even in that situation, your so called flawless revenge killer scizor cant ensure lando wont switch out, and if he tries to do it and lando stays in, hes taking 85% from earth power, a KO after 2 SR switchins. yet another 50/50 landorus creates!!

 

[Porii Sames]

and guess what, even in that situation, your so called flawless revenge killer scizor cant ensure lando wont switch out, and if he tries to do it and lando stays in, hes taking 85% from earth power, a KO after 2 SR switchins. yet another 50/50 landorus creates!!

I haven't said Scizor was flawless at anything, or that any Poke was flawless at checking/countering Lando.

Yes it's another 50/50, meaning that with proper prediction Landorus can overcome one of its checks (I mean Scizor isn't even a Landorus check to begin with, but w/e) and KO something, Sciz in this case.

So with another 50/50, that adds skill to the game and pressures both the Scizor user AND the Landorus user AGAIN. I fail to see how that is truly broken.

 

[reyscarface]

oh boy you think winning 50/50s is skill, THERES A REASON THEYRE 50/50s. im done talking here

edit: and the other player can do exact same thinking as the lucario guy, effectively making this guess work. in higher levels of play not only one player can do that, both do, so its a coin toss. now for real gonna stop.

 

[Porii Sames]

oh boy you think winning 50/50s is skill, THERES A REASON THEYRE 50/50s. im done talking here

i recognize that in the lucario scenario, it's definitely a higher risk for the lucario to stay in than it is for the landorus to u-turn. however, in an extremely high level of play (think smogon tour), risk/reward is understood by both players and then often disregarded to make better predictions. for example, my opponent has landorus in vs my lucario. i know the landorus has u-turn, and i have a pretty solid check called gyarados waiting in the wings to tank that. however, the u-turn is so painfully obvious, and the risk of leaving lucario in is so great, that i leave it in and swords dance anyways, putting my opponent in a really uncomfortable scenario. on paper, it doesn't sound smart, but it often works.

 

[dice]

porii sames, your whole argument the past 2 pages has been either "focus blast has shitty accuracy", "landorus can lose the 50/50s which it causes", or "landorus can be revenge killed by priority". i mean... do i really need to point out how flawed your reasoning is? rey's already pointed it out, but if you predict a uturn from landorus and stay in with tentacruel, you'll die. if you go to latias your opponent just loses momentum and can earthpower again due to dragon pulse not killing and the threat of tyranitar waiting in the wings.. or just uturn. focus blast isn't landorus's STAB.. it's a coverage move for stuff like skarmory and rotom-w.. it's not used very often so what's your argument there? and being revenge killed isn't a very good argument especially considering that terrakion is weaker to more common priority than landorus and he was still considered the best pokemon in bw1..

 

[Porii Sames]

porii sames, your whole argument the past 2 pages has been either "focus blast has shitty accuracy", "landorus can lose the 50/50s which it causes", or "landorus can be revenge killed by priority". i mean... do i really need to point out how flawed your reasoning is? rey's already pointed it out, but if you predict a uturn from landorus and stay in with tentacruel, you'll die. if you go to latias your opponent just loses momentum and can earthpower again due to dragon pulse not killing and the threat of tyranitar waiting in the wings.. or just uturn. focus blast isn't landorus's STAB.. it's a coverage move for stuff like skarmory and rotom-w.. it's not used very often so what's your argument there? and being revenge killed isn't a very good argument especially considering that terrakion is weaker to more common priority than landorus and he was still considered the best pokemon in bw1..

If a lot of things are immune to your primary STAB, and HP Ice is weak af (by that I mean 70 BP, Landorus hits reasonably hard with it), I'd say that Lando's primary coverage move is Focus Blast, so yeah, primary coverage moves get used quite a bit.

Most of the 50/50s it gets into favours it. But you STILL need to predict right for those (either player) and the Landorus player has to make a lot of correct moves in order to have that end goal of sweeping/cleaning with Lando. Band Terrakion effectively does the same thing.

 

[Nysyr]

Focus blast is hardly used.

Things it hits:

Ferrothorn
Blissey
Heatran with balloon intact (jk uturn out)
Hydreigon (lol)
Kyu/B
Rotom-W
Mayyybe ttar but you need pitiful amounts of resid to KO it.
Skarm

Pretty damn short list, 2 of which are conditional as hell, and Hyd better damn well be healthy.

Only listed OU pokes.

Only rotom-w and skarm are even on the list of things you are required to click it on, as with proper hazards it just switches out and trys again later, or str8 up 2hkos with EP.

So drop the garbage about focus blast.

 

[dice]

| 1 | Scizor: Earth Power
| 2 | Ferrothorn: Focus Blast / Earth Power
| 3 | Politoed: Earth Power
| 4 | Dragonite: Hidden Power Ice
| 5 | Heatran: Earth Power / Focus Blast
| 6 | Jirachi: Earth Power
| 7 | Tyranitar: Earth Power
| 8 | Latios: Hidden Power Ice
| 9 | Breloom: Hidden Power Ice
| 10 | Garchomp: Hidden Power Ice
| 11 | Rotom-Wash: Focus Blast / SWITCH
| 12 | Keldeo: Earth Power
| 13 | Starmie: Earth Power
| 14 | Terrakion: Earth Power
| 15 | Alakazam: Earth Power
| 16 | Gengar: Hidden Power Ice / SWITCH
| 17 | Landorus-Therian: Hidden Power Ice
| 18 | Celebi: Hidden Power Ice
| 19 | Ninetales: Earth Power
| 20 | Skarmory: Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice
| 21 | Salamence: Hidden Power Ice
| 22 | Forretress: Earth Power
| 23 | Volcarona: Earth Power
| 24 | Gliscor: Hidden Power Ice
| 25 | Tentacruel: Earth Power
| 26 | Jellicent: Earth Power
| 27 | Mamoswine: SWITCH / Earth Power**
| 28 | Landorus: Hidden Power Ice
| 29 | Thundurus-Therian: Hidden Power Ice
| 30 | Gyarados: SWITCH / Hidden Power Ice

**50/50!

I have gone through the Top 30 used Pokemon from last month and labeled what Landorus would often be doing against each Pokemon. Funnily enough, there are only 4 cases where it would be using Focus Blast out of all 30 Pokemon. Compare that to the 13 instances of Landorus using Hidden Power Ice, and I would say that Landorus's most used coverage move is Hidden Power Ice and not Focus Blast like you stated, Porii Sames. I did not include U-turn in this since U-turn is often used as a result of forcing a Pokemon out for a risk-free momentum gainer. The instances where Landorus would use Focus Blast are on:

Ferrothorn: a Pokemon who could can Earth Power depending on the game state and what HP it is at
Heatran: if it is utilizing the extremely rare Air Balloon, and if you're not feeling lucky, you can always switch out into your Tyranitar / Water-type etc.
Rotom-W: The most common recipient of the Focus Blast. It is often hit on the switch with it or U-turn. If it's at a low enough HP, you can just KO it with Focus Blast. Keep in mind that Focus Blast has a much better chance of hitting than missing.
Skarmory: You OHKO the standard Physically Defensive set anyways, so why would it stay in? You can also Hidden Power Ice it if it is at a low enough HP.

Funnily enough, I also went through and counted the number of Pokemon that force Landorus to switch out in the top 50, and despite it's ubiquity, only 4 Pokemon do so.

Rotom-W: Read above.
Mamoswine: Can't switch in, has to revenge kill and loses momentum if the opponent switches and you Ice Shard (which is too high of a risk to NOT to Ice Shard normally.)
Gyarados: The best check, but it is Stealth Rock weak and falls to two Psychics after it.
Gengar: Another decent check, but it also falls to the rare Psychic or even two Hidden Power Ices after Stealth Rock.

So what were you saying, Porii Sames?

 

[Meru]

Can we also address how Latias is not really the best counter ever? Even ignoring the presence of CBtar, if Latias switches in on Landorus-I using Rock Polish, it has to Roost spam for LO recoil through something like four Hidden Power Ices before it can hit back for a KO. In the process, Latias becomes insanely susceptible to a crit. I've had this happen quite a few times now, since Latias doesn't have the juice to instantly hit back, except if it's the LO tank, which is barely viable right now.

 

[jc104]

...except if it's the LO tank, which is barely viable right now.

Could you possibly explain why? Seems to work fine to me. I mean, it's the only latias set that can actually do some damage to a Tyranitar, for starters.

 

[Meru]

Could you possibly explain why? Seems to work fine to me. I mean, it's the only latias set that can actually do some damage to a Tyranitar, for starters.

You still lose to Tyranitar though, in addition to being much less sturdy to take on Keldeo and Venusaur, which imo are two of the main reasons to run Latias. And if you run Surf, you're Scizor/Ferro bait.

Maybe it's viable but most of the time, I prefer CM or just straight up LO Latios.

 

[moonbase]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-30300728

Lando butt fucking this man's team.
It can live an adamant waterfall from gdos
Don't run Focus Blast, too unreliable.

Lando set I use

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 120 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psychic

Speed Evs outrun 184 speed venasaur @+2
Hp evs makes it hit life orb number
Psychic is used to hit the second best pokemon in the tier
No person with brains runs jolly max speed stoutland with ice fang.
Not many people run Hp ice vena
You can thank me later for the set.
Have a nice day