Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[peng]

While this is true, would it not be /worse/ without team preview?

Imagine this: You have a keldeo/lando/ttar core. You have keldeo out, the opponent has no choice but to switch in celebi, only to have tyrannitar come in and allow either lando or keldeo to sweep.

Or maybe you have a scarf moxiemence in the back and so you bring out your hidden magnezone to kill their skarm and suddenly you can now sweep without the opponent ever seeing it coming.

Basically, without team preview you have to predict what is on the other team (and, as we all know, the word predict in pokemon terms is just a glorified version of guessing), something that is not healthy from a skill standpoint and certainly isn't feasible with yet ANOTHER generation of powerhouses about to be released. Maybe you guess that the opponent's team is one of the 4% that has a magnezone on it so you switch out ferrothorn from the opponents dragonite. Turns out they don't have a magnezone and dragonite can now set up and sweep.

And you can't seriously believe that team preview gives the benefit to trappers/lures. If the opponent had a gothitelle that could kill my landorus-t and allow terrakion to sweep I would MUCH rather know about it than guess that they have one of the very few teams that use gothitelle.

Apologies, I think I wasn't specific enough in my post. Clearly knowing my opponent has Gothitelle is much better for me than my opponent. I would much rather know my opponent has a trapper than not know. This isn't the point I'm making.

However, I think people really overstate how big an advantage it is to know that my opponent has a trapper. If my opponent has Dugtrio + Volcarona, I still have to switch Heatran / Terrakion / something else in to prevent Volcarona from just racking up boosts all day. Its not like I can just avoid sending in Skarmory on Dragonite all game in order to avoid Magnezone. In my opinion, unless you are running Shed Shell, the trapper vs target scenario comes down to a lot of almost 50:50 calls. I'm not saying its easier to trap in BW (clearly its much more difficult), I'm saying its not as easy to avoid it as people make out.

The point I'm trying to make is that trappers become so much more devastating once you know that once X is gone, Y can sweep (even though it is harder to trap now). Without Team Preview, a trapper team still has to scout to make sure they can sweep even after the trap has taken place - they have to scout for Pokemon that could set-up on a choice-locked Pursuit, they have to scout to make sure something can't just come in and launch a counter attack on the free switch, they have to scout for any secondary checks or counters to your certain sweepers (or at least have a good idea of the team structure before sending in Tyranitar and Pursuiting). This is where team preview is such a huge advantage for trappers, as it tells them how weak I am to their specific sweepers after the trap has taken place. Team Preview does not make it easier to trap, but it makes it considerably easier to pull off a trap-based sweep for something like Volcarona, MoxieMence, Landorus-I, or Keldeo.

@Woodchuck - Yes, I do think trappers as a whole are an inherently broken concept even without team preview. What really pulls team preview into the equation is the ease of use of lures nowadays in combination with team match-up. Team preview makes it very difficult to lose a game when you know you have a good team match-up and that pulls the game out of the hands of the player too often for my liking. There's a ton of factors in there, but the big reasons for me disliking team preview are trapping / lures / team match-up (and probably a little dpp nostalgia)

 

[oasis]

First people hated Team Preview now all of a sudden everyone is complaining at the prospect of it being gone

How things change so quickly


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[Katakiri]

First of all, this whole post is based off the PokeBeach leaker's info, who provided us 5th Gen info previously and so far has leaked Gen 6 info completely accurately as well and just to show, everything that's been confirmed is in bold here:

Hide

http://pokejungle.net/2013/05/11/more-fairy-type-rumours/

• Fairy will be a new type. It is weak to Poison and Steel, immune to Dragon, super effective against Dragon, Dark, and Fighting, and Fire (LINK Note the sound that plays and Litleo's animation when Fairy Wind hits) and Psychic-type Pokemon take half damage from it.
• Sylveon is Fairy-type. Some older Pokemon will be reclassified to Fairy, such as Mawile (Steel/Fairy).
• Mewtwo has two new formes, not just one. Both are activated via items.
• The professor’s English name is Patrice. (PJ’s Note: Although it’s not the name of a tree, it is a masculine French name and sounds kind of like PA-TREE-SS)
• The Starter final evolutions are Fire/Psychic, Grass/Fighting, and Water/Dark.
• The first Gym is Bug, the second is Fairy, and the fourth is Fighting.
• A few attacks will be dual-typed.
• There will be a new type of battling style, “Sky Battles”, that Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with Levitate can participate in.
• You will be able to see a Pokemon’s EVs at a certain in-game facility. You will be able to boost the EVs through mini-games. It will take about two hours to get one stat to max EVs.
• New move: Belch a Poison-type attack with a base power of 120 but can only be performed if the user is holding a berry and the attack consumes said berry
• New move: Draining Kiss a Fairy-type attack which has a base power of 60 and heals user for the same amount that it damages the enemy for

Even with that said, it's still rumor so take it as you will. But with that out of the way, assuming the weakness/resist rumors are true, Gardevoir seems like it could be a real pain for quite a few reasons.
- Dragon immunity alone is pretty cute and, together with Psychic-typing, erases Lati@s from memory
- It has solid Sp.Def and Trace to make Heatran, Thundurus-T, Jolteon, DW Zapdos, DW Raikou, and the various Water Absorb Pokemon completely ineffective.
- Psychic resists Fairy so it gains another useful resistance.
- Trace also lets Gardevoir abuse anything from Rain Dish/Dry Skin, Natural Cure, Intimidate, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Multiscale, Sheer Force, Regenerator, Magnet Pull, Shadow Tag, Prankster, Poison Heal, I mean the list goes on and on.
- It has access to a wide support move-pool consisting of such gems as Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp, T-Wave, Encore, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Healing Wish on top of any goodies its new Fairy-side gets.
- It no longer has to rely on Psychic for STAB and can actually hit Dark-types Super Effectively and hitting Steels neutrally with STAB alone. (Take that, Scizor...until you SE Bullet Punch or Pursuit.)
- Gardevoir's Fairy-STAB keep its SE coverage on Fighting-types that Psychic gave it and at least hits Poison-types neutrally. (meaning it still can wreck Toxicroak and steal Dry Skin in Rain)

Aside from Gardevoir, Fairy just has so much going for it; Great neutral coverage including hitting Steel-types which is huge, its weaknesses are very rare and have relatively low Base Power overall, the Fire- and Psychic-types that resist Fairy STAB don't hit Fairy Super Effectively, and Fairy is Super Effective against Dragon, Fighting, and Dark which are some of the most common types out there.

Being a Fairy-type has one and only one small downside; being hit SE by Scizor Bullet Punch and Jirachi Iron Head. Absolutely everything else is a blessing: a virtually free Dragon immunity and a STAB with great coverage. Fairy-type is a free buff no matter what gets it. Pokemon like Gardevoir and Azumarril, which were decent to begin with, are just getting better. Again, any Pokemon that gains a Fairy-typing just gets better.

There hasn't been a type like this since Gen 1 Psychic-type. Yeah, I said it. Let that sink in. No type today has virtually no downsides. Even Dragons have to worry about the omnipresent Ice Beam and other Dragons. As of now, Fairy has to watch out for exactly two moves from two Pokemon; Scizor & Jirachi. Pokemon have to neuter their coverage by running a Steel-type attack like Iron Tail to hit Fairy Super Effectively. DD, Outrage, Earthquake, and Iron Tail seems a lot worse than say Fire Blast, DClaw, or Roost but that's likely how it has to be. I mean even DragMag is done. Hell, Gardevoir can Trace Magnet Pull and take out Mag herself and without Flash Cannon, Mag stands no chance. And even then, with Dragons running Iron Tail, you have Pokemon like Azumarril that are neutral to Steel. What now? Non-STAB EQ I guess? Great; that's like 70% at +1 right? It's all because nothing of value hits these things Super Effectively. And it even gets better than that! Outrage is a thing of the past! To take out a Pokemon like Rotom-W, Dragons have to lock themselves into a move for 2 to 3 turns that Fairy is immune to. That is insane power to hold over a metagame.

You might say that we don't know enough about what moves and new toys X/Y will give us to combat these and that is very true but from how it is looking at this very moment, we will have to jump through hoops to keep Dragons relevant. Garchomp seems like he might be reclaiming his title of Dragon King since he's the only one with relevant STAB to hit Fairy with.

I mean, I know this is like the New Super Theorymon 4 Alpha Turbo HD Remix of over-speculating but I believe it's justified because of just how game-changing these things could be. I'm not saying Fairy is a bad thing at all, I'm just saying that this is going to be the biggest transition since Gen 3 to Gen 4 just because so Fairy is going to mix things up so much. Again, SE against Dragon, Fighting, and Dark, Neutral to Steel and Water, and Immune to Dragon, 5th Gen teams rely on those types too much and Fairy's weaknesses too little to not struggle a bit in the transition.

 

[peng]

A lot of this comes down to how many Fairy Pokemon we get, how good they are, what dual-typings they have and how good the Fairy attacks are. There will very likely only be 4-6 new Fairy-type evolution lines at best, and probably half of those won't even be competitively viable. Add in retypyings and OU teams will probably get like 4 or 5 good Fairy-types to choose from.

I don't think we have enough information to go on to claim that Outrage is unviable next gen. Its like claiming Choiced Ground-types have been unviable for the last 3 generations because Flying-types and Levitate exist. For all we know we could get pseudolegendary Dragon / Steel types or Dragon / Poison types that completely shaft Gardevoir&friends. Fairy could get no good STABs and just be a massive flop. We could get a bunch of Fairies with terrible secondary-typings that make them unusable. We still have ~100 new Pokemon, along with new abilities and new moves to get announced before we can completely write-off dragons.

Will Fairies be good? Almost definitely.
Will we get enough good fairies to make Dragons unviable next gen? Doubt it.
With the information we currently have, I think Fairy will be an excellent alternative to Steel-types for a lot of teams, but I don't think there will be enough good Fairies to make them staples on any team, and as a result I'm sure Dragons will still see a lot of usage.

 

[ImperialWrath]

- Dragon immunity alone is pretty cute and, together with Psychic-typing, erases Lati@s from memory Except Lati@s are also Psychic types, meaning they're neutral to Fairy and resistant to Psychic, in addition to having good/great Sp.Def and Sp.Atk and being faster than Gardevoir. I don't think Gardevoir can take very many Psyshocks either, even if they're resisted.
- It has solid Sp.Def and Trace to make Heatran, Thundurus-T, Jolteon, DW Zapdos, DW Raikou, and the various Water Absorb Pokemon completely ineffective. That's only if they're Choice-locked into such nullified moves. Heatran will be resistant to both of Gardevoir's STABs, has super-effective STAB of its own, is already a good special wall, and is immune to the only moves boosted by Flash Fire, so I don't know why you listed it. The Electric types listed are faster than Gardevoir, and many have super-effective coverage options.
- Psychic resists Fairy so it gains another useful resistance.
- Trace also lets Gardevoir abuse anything from Rain Dish/Dry Skin, Natural Cure, Intimidate, Chlorophyll, Sand Rush, Multiscale, Sheer Force, Regenerator, Magnet Pull, Shadow Tag, Prankster, Poison Heal, I mean the list goes on and on.
- It has access to a wide support move-pool consisting of such gems as Hypnosis, Will-O-Wisp, T-Wave, Encore, Taunt, Destiny Bond, and Healing Wish on top of any goodies its new Fairy-side gets.
- It no longer has to rely on Psychic for STAB and can actually hit Dark-types Super Effectively and hitting Steels neutrally with STAB alone. (Take that, Scizor...until you SE Bullet Punch or Pursuit.)Why wouldn't Scizor Bullet Punch or even Bug Bite if it smelled Gardevoir coming? How strong would a Fairy STAB have to be if Gardevoir wants to stop Tyranitar in Sand (Max investment can tank 480 BP after SE and STAB modifiers from ~110 Sp.Atk) before it Crunches you to death? What stops Sucker Punch from ruining you?
- Gardevoir's Fairy-STAB keep its SE coverage on Fighting-types that Psychic gave it and at least hits Poison-types neutrally. (meaning it still can wreck Toxicroak and steal Dry Skin in Rain) None of this is new for Gardevoir, and it does need to watch out for Sucker Punch from Toxicroak, or even STAB Poison moves since it's still faster.

Aside from Gardevoir, Fairy just has so much going for it; Great neutral coverage including hitting Steel-types which is huge, its weaknesses are very rare and have relatively low Base Power overall, the Fire- and Psychic-types that resist Fairy STAB don't hit Fairy Super Effectively, and Fairy is Super Effective against Dragon, Fighting, and Dark which are some of the most common types out there. There are two Dark-types in OU, one of which is Hydreigon (who is completely screwed by Fairy attacks existing) and the other has six other weaknesses to arguably common types. The Dragon and Fighting types in the tier are usually able to hit hard, hit first, or some combination of the two while also tanking hits or being Breloom. Fairy doesn't resist anything other than Dragon, and most (nearly all) OU Dragons have enough power behind their coverage options to be threatening if they can make a neutral hit.

Being a Fairy-type has one and only one small downside; being hit SE by Scizor Bullet Punch and Jirachi Iron Head. Absolutely everything else is a blessing: a virtually free Dragon immunity and a STAB with great coverage. Fairy-type is a free buff no matter what gets it. Pokemon like Gardevoir and Azumarril, which were decent to begin with, are just getting better. Again, any Pokemon that gains a Fairy-typing just gets better. Toxicroak, Venusaur, and Gengar are all viable OU candidates for running Poison-type STAB moves if Fairy's presence warrants it, with Roserade looking on hopefully. Lucario can opt to run STAB Bullet Punch as well. Metagross has a resistance to Fairy, which means it will likely rise in usage. Gyro Ball is also very usable on slow Steel-type walls like Ferrothorn and Forretress. Finally, I suspect Jirachi, Chansey and Blissey would be worse off as Fairy-types, Jirachi because it would lose either its Bullet Punch resistance or its neutrality to Mach Punch and already resists Dragon, and the Blobs because they would have three times as many weaknesses and they lack the offensive presence to take advantage of the Fairy-type's coverage.

There hasn't been a type like this since Gen 1 Psychic-type. I don't see it. Psychic I had no viable weaknesses, no resistances outside of itself, and an egregiously unfair natural statistical advantage based on how Special and Speed worked. If Fairy is the closest type to reach that level, it can't be by very much when you consider things like Dragon IV.Yeah, I said it. Let that sink in. No type today has virtually no downsides. Bullet Punch is a downside, as is having as many resistances as Normal.Even Dragons have to worry about the omnipresent Ice Beam and other Dragons. As of now, Fairy has to watch out for exactly two moves from two Pokemon; Scizor & Jirachi. Metagross is still OU, and can't wait for X and Y. Lucario has Bullet Punch. For a change of pace, Mons like Crobat and Nidoking could be pretty cool, and both are solidly UU and somewhat viable in OU.Pokemon have to neuter their coverage by running a Steel-type attack like Iron Tail to hit Fairy Super Effectively. I'm not sure how many Dragons will actually need to hit Fairy-types super-effectively. Hitting them AT ALL is probably going to hurt if it's neutral, given the famous Dragon attack stats. DD, Outrage, Earthquake, and Iron Tail seems a lot worse than say Fire Blast, DClaw, or Roost but that's likely how it has to be. I mean even DragMag is done. Hell, Gardevoir can Trace Magnet Pull and take out Mag herself and without Flash Cannon, If Fairy is a problem, Flash Cannon will be run. Mag stands no chance. And even then, with Dragons running Iron Tail, you have Pokemon like Azumarril that are neutral to Steel. This one I can agree with, as long as it stays clear of Kyu-B. Azumarill + Fairy + Rain still existing = OU, in all likelyhood. What now? Non-STAB EQ I guess? Great; that's like 70% at +1 right? Do you have some calcs for that, actually? It's all because nothing of value hits these things Super Effectively. Fuck, I'm going to start suggesting Scolipede and Durant now, or even Venomoth. And it even gets better than that! Outrage is a thing of the past! To take out a Pokemon like Rotom-W, Dragons have to lock themselves into a move for 2 to 3 turns that Fairy is immune to. 1. Team Preview. 2. Moves like Outrage will immediately end if they don't deal any damage, try switching a Ghost-type in to Thrash or a Sap Sipper into Petal Dance (or just Shedinja into Outrage, really). If Rotom-W were to Volt Switch after Outrage hits, your Fairy switch-in would get the pseudo-trap, but otherwise it's the same as switching into any other Not Effective attack: you get a free switch in on the first turn (which isn't bad) and they get to switch to a coverage move or a different Pokemon on the next. That is insane power to hold over a metagame. Eh.

You might say that we don't know enough about what moves and new toys X/Y will give us to combat these and that is very true but from how it is looking at this very moment, we will have to jump through hoops to keep Dragons relevant. Garchomp seems like he might be reclaiming his title of Dragon King since he's the only one with relevant STAB to hit Fairy with. Kingdra's also pretty cool, since Rain keeps existing, but it does look like Garchomp for Dragonlord 2014...

I mean, I know this is like the New Super Theorymon 4 Alpha Turbo HD Remix of over-speculating but I believe it's justified because of just how game-changing these things could be. I'm not saying Fairy is a bad thing at all, I'm just saying that this is going to be the biggest transition since Gen 3 to Gen 4 just because so Fairy is going to mix things up so much. Again, SE against Dragon, Fighting, and Dark, Neutral to Steel and Water, and Immune to Dragon, But neutral or worse to a Dragon's coverage, 5th Gen teams rely on those types too much and Fairy's weaknesses too little ... to not struggle a bit in the transition.

I feel like people have greatly overestimated the power of the coming Fairy-type. Skimming through some analyses, there's more than a few Pokemon that already have cause to run Poison or Steel attacks in OU, undercutting Fairy's fabled (pun not intended) defensive abilities almost as much as its lack of resistances, other than the big one. Fairy's biggest asset is in what it hits super-effectively, in my opinion... that is, assuming it gets widely distributed moves better than Fairy Wind, which is the only move of its type thus far seen on more than one Pokemon and seems to have 30 base power, if Pokebeach was right about Hydreigon being 4x weak to it.

 

[Katakiri]

A lot of this comes down to how many Fairy Pokemon we get, how good they are, what dual-typings they have and how good the Fairy attacks are. There will very likely only be 4-6 new Fairy-type evolution lines at best, and probably half of those won't even be competitively viable. Add in retypyings and OU teams will probably get like 4 or 5 good Fairy-types to choose from.

I don't think we have enough information to go on to claim that Outrage is unviable next gen. Its like claiming Choiced Ground-types have been unviable for the last 3 generations because Flying-types and Levitate exist. For all we know we could get pseudolegendary Dragon / Steel types or Dragon / Poison types that completely shaft Gardevoir&friends. Fairy could get no good STABs and just be a massive flop. We could get a bunch of Fairies with terrible secondary-typings that make them unusable. We still have ~100 new Pokemon, along with new abilities and new moves to get announced before we can completely write-off dragons.

Will Fairies be good? Almost definitely.
Will we get enough good fairies to make Dragons unviable next gen? Doubt it.
With the information we currently have, I think Fairy will be an excellent alternative to Steel-types for a lot of teams, but I don't think there will be enough good Fairies to make them staples on any team, and as a result I'm sure Dragons will still see a lot of usage.

Well this will be the first time an incredibly over-used move like Outrage will have something with immunity to it. And when I said a move like Outrage, I mean the mechanics. The difference between Outrage and Choice-locked EQ is that the EQ Pokemon can switch out; Outrage locks you in for 2-3 turns. So it gives the option of KOing the Rotom-W that's about to WoW you, but you also have to use it next turn against a Fairy since it hit the last turn. Dragons could at least boost to +3 or 4 and not care about Steel, but now, they can get to +6 but if they click Outrage, they faint next turn.

And on top of that you have to realize, while Fairies will be prominent, so will Steel-types. Dragon, just like any other type, now have more than one type of Pokemon to look out for on top of all the things Dragons already have to worry about like Ice Shard and Choice Scarfers like Terrakion or Jirachi. Outrage's viability becomes a question of "can I afford the risk?" Moves like Draco Meteor will still be fine, but Outrage really is a risk now more-so than ever.

I mean teams can easily run multiple Dragon checks without stacking weaknesses nor giving up coverage. For instance: Mamoswine, Azumarril, and Scizor. Sylveon, Skarmory, and CS Terrakion. Heatran, Gardevoir, and Landorus-T. And we're much more than likely to get more Fairy-types down the line that will fit even better onto teams. Bring in as many Dragon/Steel or Dragon/Poisons as you want, but teams generally will have 2 or 3 Dragon checks without even meaning for 1 or 2 of them to be Dragon checks.

That all stems from Dragons now having 4-moveslot syndrome. Dragons now want to hit Fairy, Fire-resistant Fairy (Azumarril), Water-resistant Fairy (Azumarril), Ground-resistant/immune Fairy (if it exists), Poison-immune Fairy (rumored Mawile but unconfirmed), Steel, Ground-immune Steel, Water-resistant Steels, Fighting-neutral Steels, Fire-neutral Steels, and Heatran while still having enough power or a boosting move to sweep. That's a tall order for a Pokemon to cover all that before it can use its STAB.

The old standard of Dragon-Fire-Ground isn't enough anymore unless one of those coverage moves are STAB like Garchomp's. If these Fairy Pokemon have any bulk to them, a non-STAB +1 EQ really shouldn't OHKO. Azumarril can already attest to that.
252 +1 Atk Naive Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Adamant Azumarill: 65.35% - 76.73%
And for the less bulky Fairy's sake: 252 +1 Atk Naive Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Adamant Azumarill: 77.42% - 90.91%
And remember those calcs are Life Orb. Dragons like Dragonite, Haxorus, and even Salamence likely won't be using it in favor of Lum Berry.

And even if Fairy gets low base power moves (tho Moonblast seems legit), every Fairy announced so far has an Ice-type move in its movepool so it's unlikely that it will flop. Azumarril won't mind keeping Ice Punch at all.

I never said it was the end of Dragons but 6th Gen will certainly bring them down to Earth since they have Fairy on top of all their current 5th Gen worries to handle.

@Imperial Wrath
You keep harping on Bullet Punch but realize that Fairies can just switch out. Blissey, Wigglytuff, Clefable, nor w/e normal-type gets Fairy isn't going to stay in on any Physical Steel-type to begin with aside from like Forretress anyway so really, what's the difference? I won't even give you Jirachi because I was speaking for Pokemon that don't have secondary typings. If you don't have a secondary-typing, Fairy is a gift.

Aside from Gardevoir (who has Destiny Bond so she doesn't give a shit), no Fairy are Pursuit weak yet so nothing's stopping them from switching out. On top of that, Steel is still a really shitty offensive typing and Bullet Punch is very weak from anything other than Scizor. And even then, like Azumarril cares about a Bullet Punch neutrality when it's that slow already.

Lucario gets hit SE against Fairy and lacks the power to take down any Fairy but maybe Gardevoir with Bullet Punch. Wait...

252 +2 (for SE Fairy damage) Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Gardevoir: 85.25% - 99.64% : 2 hits to KO.
Nope, not even her without SR. Garde has Base 68 HP & Base 65 Def so she's likely to be the physically weakest Fairy unless Farfetch'd decides to become even more majestic. Like I said, Bullet Punch is rubbish even with Adamant and Life Orb.

Metagross has an entirely different set of problems named: both its STABs being trash, every Water-type in the game, Ferrothorn, Gliscor/Landorus/Hippo/Garchomp, Fire-types if he chooses Hammer Arm over EQ, and horrible 4-moveslot syndrome. Gengar has so many better options than Sludge Bomb and, I noticed you completely ignored what I said about Fairy-resistant Pokemon but I'll say it again, Pokemon like Gengar, Scizor, Roserade, Crobat, and Lucario aren't even decent switch-ins to Fairy moves in the first place because the coverage is just so good and the Pokemon that can switch in, can't hit it SE aside from Flash Cannon Heatran which I find hilarious (and 2 of the 3 Fairy we know the stats for can out-speed and hit Heatran Super Effectively with Azumarril Aqua Jet and Gardevoir Focus Blast respectively.)

Gardevoir has solid Sp.Def, Trace, Taunt, Hypnosis, and Destiny Bond to fall back on. Definitely not to be taken lightly. And Azumarril can hit those Fighting-types like Terrakion before it can attack via Aqua Jet and it still has plenty bulk to take just about anything something like Keldeo throws out too so if there is a physical Fairy move, Azumarril is in pretty good shape.

Poison does hit Fairy but it's useless for just about anything else aside from Venusaur who can actually make it threatening with Growth and Nidoking who can make anything threatening. Toxicroak's coverage goes out the window with Poison Jab. And on top of that, like I said before, these Pokemon can't switch-in on Fairy so why are they going to try go out of their way to run coverage for something that A: can't set up on them; B: doesn't threaten them Super Effectively in most cases; and C: doesn't wall their good STAB. It's like Rotom-W running HP Ground for Magnezone. It doesn't serve any purpose but to hit a Pokemon that will never switch into you, that you can already 2HKO with a better move, for more damage. Does not help your coverage at all but boy will that one Pokemon be in for a surprise if it ever switches in.

Dragons are really the only Pokemon that should be sacrificing coverage for Fairy-types because, just like you said, they only resist Dragon. Poison & Steel moves should not be any more common than they are now. They may increase in usage but there doesn't seem to be any call for it yet.

 

[Lork]

it is interesting that nintendo is quite clearly dealing with the metagame. they cite introducing fairy type as a means to balance out dragons, but there's another thing that people haven't mentioned. the moves introduced so far are very defensive (stat lowering, health regaining), and surely then this focus will nerf offense.

 

[Spork]

We're getting some great theorymon in this thread, which is why it's so annoying that Fairy's type matchups haven't actually been confirmed :/

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

that is, assuming it gets widely distributed moves better than Fairy Wind, which is the only move of its type thus far seen on more than one Pokemon and seems to have 30 base power, if Pokebeach was right about Hydreigon being 4x weak to it.

We can't really assume its base power. We don't even know the type match-ups for sure, and there's other things like stat ups, hold items, etc. which can change how much it seems to do.

Not to mention, they could've changed the damage formula for all we know. They've done it before.

 

[Codraroll]

So far, there have been certain typical characteristics with every type. Every type has had a few traits associated with it. For instance, Poison and Ghost all about wearing down the enemy and dealing indirect damage or cause other mischief, Grass has many HP-stealing attacks, Steel types are generally defensive and Rock have "high risk, high return" as an unofficial motto (high base power and low accuracy, or "glass cannon" stats are typical for Rock types). There are exceptions, of course, but most Pokémon of each type stick to the tropes.

Now, what might the focus of the Fairy type be? Will Fairies, like Steel Pokémon, be all about enduring whatever is thrown at them and boost their own defenses? Steel Pokémon lack good recovery, so there is certainly an idle niche of "stay alive AND healthy for a long time". However, defensive gameplay isn't that fun in the long run, and with the right amount of offense, it can be nullified.

Perhaps they will be like Dark Pokémon? As you might have noticed, Dark moves all have relatively low base power... unless the conditions are right for them. Foul Play hits opposing attackers hard, whereas Punishment is devastating to boosters. Payback and Assurance are great tools for slow users, and repeated usage of Bite or Crunch leads to missed turns or penetrated defenses for the opponent. Will fairies too be soft and humble until conditions are met, and then turn into wrecking balls?

Perhaps Fairy moves are liable to cause stat drops? Bug types are notorious in this regard, as many common Bug moves will involve changes to stats on the relevant side of the field. Perhaps the fairies will join this strategy, and wear down the opponents while giving themselves boosts?

I really hope Fairy doesn't go the same ways as Fire, Fighting Ground or Dragon: Raw offensive power. Fire deals loads of damage and might cause painful burns. Fighting moves punch large holes in opposing teams, but in the long run, they tend to fail when you need it the least. Ground moves are powerful, reliable and drawback-free - unless mitigated by something that flies. And we all know the ways of the Dragons. These four types make for easy "steamrolling" strategies in-game, just spam your most powerful move, and most things will go down easily, but the tactic doesn't fit fairies at all. Sure, you might need to fight fire with fire and give the new type moves that can bring down dragons in a couple of hits, but doing so with fairies? At least an eventual "Light" type could justify high-power moves bringing down dragons and dark creatures alike, but giving that sort of power to fairies... let's really hope GameFreak put their focus elsewhere.

However, anything would be better than introducing the first type based on raising one's own Evasion and drop the accuracy of the opponent - kinda like some Ground moves, just on a bigger scale. That would require massive bans to keep hax at acceptable levels, thus kinda ruining the impact of the new type.

All in all, I hope for Fairy moves to be somewhat like Psychic: Wonky status moves and moderately powerful offensive moves with all sorts of side effects, but not powerful to the point of being broken or overly spammable. A little good-willed HP restoration would be nice too.

 

[Jok]

here's me hoping that DECENT 'mons will become Fairy, stuff like Blissey and Milotic are solid candidate, and they would become once again usable in OU.
the ''Pixies'' by name (mew, celebi, manaphy, victini, maybe jirachi) could also be Fairy Type, given their ''category''.
One thing I didn't quite understood though, is Fairy type only immune to Dragon? Does it have resistances? (I recall that Fairy was resistant against Fight and Dark, but I could be wrong) would like a clarification for that!

 

[Katakiri]

One thing I didn't quite understood though, is Fairy type only immune to Dragon? Does it have resistances? (I recall that Fairy was resistant against Fight and Dark, but I could be wrong) would like a clarification for that!

It's just Dragon as far as we know. It hits Fighting and Dark super effectively but doesn't resist.

 

[alexwolf]

Btw Katakiri, why do you assume that Outrage will lock the user even if an immunity switches in (Fairy-type)? Iirc, Petal Dance doesn't lock you in against Sap Sipper users, so i guess the same will be true for Outrage...

EDIT: Thrash on Ghost-types too.

 

[Rapti]

I wonder how Pokemon-amie will affect the metagame, some people call it just hax but I beg to differ (kinda)

On one hand I don't really mind the increase in critical hit ratio if it's high enough, why high? 'Cause if if you have an opponent that will crit you 100% of the time with a move like Slash then it stops being hax and its just a buff to attack, sure it makes defensive boosts pointless assuming crits work like they do now but what arguably makes hax bad is it's unpredictability, if it can be predicted then a good player can take it into account and play around it, I mean persian basically had this on gen 1 and it was fine
Of course persian has bad offensive stats and if half of the BW2 meta crit'd all the time tjings would become even more offensive oriented than they already are, but if it caps at 50% damge increase it would certanly change the metagame but it would be workable and it would make high-crit moves, Sniper and the Armor abilites actually good

On the evasion boosts I'm not that convinced, sure if we get never miss moves of all types it might be manageable but it's certanly overcentralizing, still I don't like banning things so I thinks it should be at least tested

 

[Shurtugal]

If fairy is weak to fighting, steel, bug, or water, its gonna be mediocre at best. Also, how much SR is it taking? 25% would be pitiful

Also, has SE against fighting and dark confirmed? Bulbapedia and Serebii don't confirm so curious . Can someone link me to confirmation to weakness to steel and poison too? Lots of claims, some proof would be nice.

Edit: Chansey the fairy ftw

The pokemon who got fairy so far don't seem that good while Sylveon looks like a fast paced offensive juggernaut.

 

[Katakiri]

Btw Katakiri, why do you assume that Outrage will lock the user even if an immunity switches in (Fairy-type)? Iirc, Petal Dance doesn't lock you in against Sap Sipper users, so i guess the same will be true for Outrage...

EDIT: Thrash on Ghost-types too.

I didn't. I specifically said forcing them to Outrage on something like WoWing Rotom-W, which will lock them in for the next turn. Steels can be cleared by a +2 or so Outrage if their HP is low enough, but Fairy can revenge them even if they're at like 2% or w/e. Teams have to clear all Fairys completely before they can Outrage. But if Azumarril is any indicator, we will likely have some more Fairys that can just switch-in themselves.

That said, Fairy/Flying Togekiss would be extremely cute since it takes like 30% from Fire Blasts and is immune to Dragon & Ground. Flying/Fairy is just so good on paper even with the slight SR weakness. What is a Garchomp? What's a Salamence?

And it still has Roost ahahaha Poison Jab or Stone Edge, Chomp? 4 move-slot syndrome can really be happening.

If fairy is weak to fighting, steel, bug, or water, its gonna be mediocre at best. Also, how much SR is it taking? 25% would be pitiful

Also, has SE against fighting and dark confirmed? Bulbapedia and Serebii don't confirm so curious . Can someone link me to confirmation to weakness to steel and poison too? Lots of claims, some proof would be nice.

Edit: Chansey the fairy ftw

The pokemon who got fairy so far don't seem that good while Sylveon looks like a fast paced offensive juggernaut.

It's semi-confirmed. I posted the full rumor list a couple posts up in a hide tag. The guy gave us completely accurate 5th Gen leaks before and half of his 6th Gen leak list was confirmed at E3 (Sky Battles, visible in-game EVs, Fairy being SE against Dragon and NVE against Fire, I mean it's a fairly solid list of correct info to try and discredit.) He's an awesome guy and doesn't have any reason to lie and ruin 3 years of trust and total credibility among Pokefans for 5 more seconds of fame.

Fairy is weak to Steel but it's not Pursuit weak and Fairy hits Steel neutrally so Scizor can't switch-in on them nor trap them, and aside from him, only Jirachi carries any Steel-STAB worth being afraid of. There's Gyro Ball from Ferro and rarely Forrty (likes to run RS, SR, Spikes, & VS) but those two are pretty easily dealt with even if the Fairy doesn't want to switch out.

 

[Shurtugal]

Those prospects are scary. They don't seem like good defensive types but its quite offensive! I still say Scizor is a good overall check to the type as well as Jira and Venu, while the Lati Twins might be able to do something (is it weak to psychic or is this only offensively speaking?)

Edit; got link nvm on Lati mention. Also, for your sash smeargle set, explosion works to fuck Tenta and Forrey while doing 66% to bulky ThundyT and effectively smashing dnites multiscale

 

[ChaosAkita]

I love the idea of Poke-amie but I hope it does't affect link battles. Although with in-game Pokemon being as easy as it is, I don't feel like players need the boost at all, but I guess that is another discussion.

 

[blitzlefan]

tl;dr
Is eliminating only broken threats more important, or is creating a diverse metagame important, even if it's an "artificial" metagame?

 

[IcyMan28]

Obviously the Fairy type is a huge introduction, but I don't think Dragons will have the cataclysmic fall every is implying. Choiced dragons will need to play a bit more carefully, much like choice EQ users, but outside of that they do have other options. Sylveon came into Latios' LO Draco Meteor? That's fine, it'll just switch to Psyshock while not fearing Fairy attacks much at all. Garchomp has a viable alternative STAB to work with. Other examples apply I'm sure.

While it's obviously not possible to predict too far ahead, I could think of a few pokemon that could spare a slot for Poison or Steel in their moveslot. Gengar could easily run Sludge Bomb (if Blissey becomes Fairy type, this is actually advantageous), as could Venusaur or pokemon with a spare special slot. Iron Tail, an otherwise unimportant move, is also fairly well distributed. Who knows what other moves will be released?

Now for the pokemon. Fairy-type Wigglytuff will be unimportant and probably STILL outclassed by Clefable, who I think will inevitable become Fairy-type. Water / Fairy Azumarill is amazing.

Other potential reclassifications I could see are Celebi becoming Grass / Fairy, or even Steel / Fairy Jirachi.

 

[TLo]

You don't think Fairy type will have a major impact on dragons?
Look at Azelf. If Azurill gets Fairy typing and the Lake Trio doesn't then something is wrong.
WHEN Azelf gets Fairy typing, what happens when he outspeeds EVERY OU dragon in the current metagame and now serves as the greatest dragon check of all time? Guarded with Levitate he can easily come in on a dragon that's choice locked onto EQ because said dragon was trying to kill a steel type.

They released like 5 pokemon with Fairy typing, who knows what other pokemon could possibly wreak havoc on the dragons.

 

[X5Dragon]

Well we never did anything to make lesser used playstyles be more competitive so I don't know why that would change next gen, although stall with the new fairy type should get more boosted if anything.

Dragons will just switch to DD sets and Life Orbs/EBs along with including a powerful neutral move or Steel move coverage, Dragonite has both Iron Tail and Iron Head for example.

 

[Katakiri]

So far, it's looking like Fairy + Levitate/Flying-typing is going to be pretty amazing. Something that could come in on Garchomp with complete immunity to both its STABs just sounds delicious. From something like Salamence, a neutral Fire Blast is the most you'd have to worry about. That alone would change entire movesets but beyond that, we have Gardevoir walling and crippling Lati@s, Azumarill blocking Dragonite's Fire Punches, on top of any airborne Fairy walling Garchomp and pals. We have relatively hard counters to all of the most common Dragons in just 3 type combinations. That's meta-game-defining stuff.

People talk about how we could end up with no useful Fairy-types but making a useful Fairy-type is fairly simple even without digging into the pool of legendary Pokemon that may have a small chance.
Take Mismagius for example, a Pokemon that is decently likely to net itself a Fairy-typing. Ghost/Fairy Mismagius is immune to Dragon, Fighting, and Ground while out-pacing Garchomp and having a STAB that's SE against Dark-type Pursuit users. A nearly unresisted STAB combo doesn't hurt either. From sub-par Ghost to arguably the best Ghost-type in OU all with the addition of one typing.
Another one? Granbull. Normal/Fairy-type with Intimidate, great coverage, and the Attack to abuse it. That Intimidate would make Defensive Granbull a tough foe for physical Dragons.
One more? Absol. A Sucker Punch that powerful isn't to be taken lightly even if Dragons want to switch to their coverage moves. Fairy/Dark has near perfect coverage. The Lati are crying.
Bonus one? Sure, why not? Milotic. Water/Fairy. That one explains itself. It's even neutral to Steel. Gg, Dragonite & Mence.
I could name off 5 or 6 other winners but my point is that Fairy doesn't have to be slapped onto something like Chansey, Cresselia, or Azelf to shake OU. If it's not a brand new Pokemon, I'd bet it's likely a UU or RU Pokemon that becomes the premier OU Fairy-type.

Because of Fairy-type, Dragons have a big issue that will entirely change how they play. But at the same time, they can't change how they play all that much because Steel-types still exist and they will likely still be used for way more than just Dragon-checking. Dragonite can run Iron Head on his DD Set but now he has to choose between Fire Punch, Earthquake, or Superpower which is basically making Dragonite choose which Steel-type entirely walls him that day; Jirachi, Skarm, or Heatran? Could be all of them in Rain.

But Fairy is just as much and offensive typing as it is defensive. Even non-Fairy Pokemon might make use of Fairy coverage. Fairy/Ghost coverage is pretty nice. Heatran, Aria Meloetta (as if Girafarig is relevant), and Litleo are the only Pokemon I can think of that resist the combination while Fairy hits Ghost's Dark-type resists Super Effectively and Ghost hits Fairy's Psychic-type resists SE. Fairy/Dark is similar as Fairy covers Dark's Fighting- and Dark-type resists.
Pokemon like Zoroark would appreciate HP Fairy or let's say "Fairy Ball" as a way to hit Dragons and Dark-types without having to split that coverage between HP Ice & Focus Blast which leaves more room for Flamethrower or w/e it wants to run.
Something like Stoutland would love to have a move like, let's say "Fairy Tail" (GF is not above names that bad) to replace Ice Fang for Dragons while also hitting Fighting-types and Tyranitar SE all with the same move.

But these are just thoughts that cross my mind because I have nothing better to do this late. Venting and all that.
Fairy-type Hypno. Try to sleep at night. As if Sylveon's flesh-ribbons weren't enough.

 

[Gehenna]

I'm just glad Normal isn't (offensively speaking) strictly outclassed by Dragon anymore.

 

[ChaosAkita]

Do you guys think the addition of Fairy means that Gamefreak is starting to care more about balance?