Serious Zimmerman Acquitted

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Mack the Knife

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Someone follows you, at night, in a car, then gets out and makes a move towards you (and I'm guessing some words were said too). Anyone who assumes they have good intentions is probably well on their way to getting raped.

If Trayvon had beaten Zimmerman into a coma, it would've been richly and rightfully deserved.
Oh so I can just beat up random people at night if they come up and talk to me? Cause that's what your saying and that is where I have to disagree. It wouldn't have been at all deserved, since Zimmerman wouldn't have done anything to Trayvon in this alternate reality that you propose.. You can't just attack people if you think they might be suspicious, but you can still check on them, which is what I believed Zimmerman did and then he got attacked.
 

Crux

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Oh so I can just beat up random people at night if they come up and talk to me? Cause that's what your saying and that is where I have to disagree. It wouldn't have been at all deserved, since Zimmerman wouldn't have done anything to Trayvon in this alternate reality that you propose.. You can't just attack people if you think they might be suspicious, but you can still check on them, which is what Zimmerman did and then he got attacked.

Since you were obviously there maybe you should have testified on behalf of Zimmerman because if you had then maybe these crazy fucking liberals wouldn't be using this logic and reason bullshit and implying that he might have been malicious!
 

Mack the Knife

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Since you were obviously there maybe you should have testified on behalf of Zimmerman because if you had then maybe these crazy fucking liberals wouldn't be using this logic and reason bullshit and implying that he might have been malicious!

Sorry about that should have said "which is what i believed he did" I'll edit it. Also, I agree, many peoples logic and reason is a bit off, but I wouldn't assign it only to liberals.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
Sorry about that should have said "which is what i believed he did" I'll edit it. Also, I agree, many peoples logic and reason is a bit off, but I wouldn't assign it only to liberals.
You think that Trayvon was not justified in responding with some degree of violence when a man who had been following in a car exits the car and confronts him, probably in a very aggressive and threatening way given what we know of the situation?
 

Mack the Knife

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You think that Trayvon was not justified in responding with some degree of violence when a man who had been following in a car exits the car and confronts him, probably in a very aggressive and threatening way given what we know of the situation?
Actually, if Zimmerman approached him a threatening manner, then I could understand a punch being justified, but from what we heard he was beating him. I think if he punched him and ran off, and then Zimmerman shot him, Zimmerman would be guilty, but it didn't happen that way. Also, if it's Zimmerman's fault that Trayvon started beating him let me apply the same logic to another situation.If I am told not disturb a man in an office, and I walk into the office, because I think the man is up to something, the man starts beating me. I manage to grab a piece of glass and stab the man so he'd stop beating me, but I end up killing the man. I want you to answer, am I justified in killing the man or is it my fault?
 

alexwolf

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A precedent that it's okay to kill someone if you successfully picked a fight with him first is just not acceptable.
QFT. I am totally astonished by this incident. Lol at self defense, lol at neighborhood watch having guns, and generally the blood thirstiness in america never ceases to surprise me. And i just can't believe that after this whole tragedy happened there are people who are expressing in this thread that they want to see Zimmerman lynched as if we live in the middle age.

Deck Knight said:
So when some guy starts whaling on you and beating you into the dirt - potentially to death - are you going to just lie down and take it? Or are you going to defend yourself - with lethal force if necessary.
So the best answer to a potentially deadly attack against you is another death instead? Are you fucking kidding me? Have you ever thought that a gun can be used in other ways other than killing, such as wounding to prevent from following or just threatening?

I just can't believe that killing someone under those circumstances can be justified to the eyes of so many people, really disappointing and sad.
 

Mack the Knife

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@Alexwolf This is just me trying to assume the best in people, but what if Zimmerman meant to just shoot Trayvon in the leg, but accidentally killed him? I just wanted to say it is a possibility, and none of us here have all the info.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
Actually, if Zimmerman approached him a threatening manner, then I could understand a punch being justified, but from what we heard he was beating him. I think if he punched him and ran off, and then Zimmerman shot him, Zimmerman would be guilty, but it didn't happen that way. Also, if it's Zimmerman's fault that Trayvon started beating him let me apply the same logic to another situation.If I am told not disturb a man in an office, and I walk into the office, because I think the man is up to something, the man starts beating me. I manage to grab a piece of glass and stab the man so he'd stop beating me, but I end up killing the man. I want you to answer, am I justified in killing the man or is it my fault?
You realise that in order for Trayvon to commence beating him Zimmerman would have had to approach, right? I wasn't talking about Zimmerman's guilt or lack of it, I was merely saying that generally speaking people (NOT EVEN BLACK ONES) don't randomly start beating on you without some kind of provocation so it is likely that the situation was initiated by Zimmerman.

I'm not actually responding to that analogy because it isn't analogous at all and I am hoping to dear God that you are being disingenuous because it is one of the stupidest things I have read. This is even more asinine than Pwnemon's analogy. Keep 'em coming boys.
 

Mack the Knife

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You realise that in order for Trayvon to commence beating him Zimmerman would have had to approach, right? I wasn't talking about Zimmerman's guilt or lack of it, I was merely saying that generally speaking people (NOT EVEN BLACK ONES) randomly starting beating on you without some kind of provocation so it is likely that the situation was initiated by Zimmerman.

I'm not actually responding to that analogy because it isn't analogous at all and I am hoping to dear God that you are being disingenuous because it is one of the stupidest things I have read. This is even more asinine than Pwnemon's analogy. Keep 'em coming boys.
I apologize I assumed you were talking about his guilt or innocence. Also, after reading it over I realise my analogy was a bit ridiculous. Again i apologize. Also, I realise this argument or thread isn't going to change anything, and this argument isn't necessary, since the judgement has already been passed.
 
Oh so I can just beat up random people at night if they come up and talk to me? Cause that's what your saying and that is where I have to disagree. It wouldn't have been at all deserved, since Zimmerman wouldn't have done anything to Trayvon in this alternate reality that you propose.. You can't just attack people if you think they might be suspicious, but you can still check on them, which is what I believed Zimmerman did and then he got attacked.
It's not like he just walked up and spoke to him at first sight. He followed him for a significant distance (certainly long enough to make someone uncomfortable), then decided to get out of his car (and maybe it's just a coincidence, but when nobody else was in the vicinity) and cause a confrontation. Zimmermans actions pretty much read in exactly the same way a potential abductor could go about their business too, if anyone would have a right to claim self-defence for anything in this case it would be Trayvon if Zimmerman had ended up dead, not the other way around -- you don't get to stalk someone and then claim self defence.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
I'm not actually responding to that analogy because it isn't analogous at all and I am hoping to dear God that you are being disingenuous because it is one of the stupidest things I have read. This is even more asinine than Pwnemon's analogy. Keep 'em coming boys.
for the last time, that was not an analogy, that was simply an example of the operator's EXACT WORDS in another context to show how they could be misconstrued as something other than an "order to stand down," meaning Zimmerman did not think the dispatch told him he must stay in his car. however, by all means keep ignoring my argument and bashing me, because i see how disastrous acknowledging it could be to your argument that he directly disobeyed authorities leading up to the confrontation.
 

GatoDelFuego

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The thing I don't really like about this situation: what if martin was a woman and initiated a fight with zimmerman because she was fearful for her own safety? Would initiating a fight with someone in that case be seen as "justified"?

The right call was made in this case, zimmerman shouldn't have gotten murder. But he provoked a fight (maybe not initiated, but intentionally provoked) and winds up killing the other guy involved.

This reminds me of some other case I saw several months back. A gas station owner was being harassed through the locked front door of his gas station. He could have stayed safe inside and let the police handle things, but instead he made the choice to open the door and immediately shoot some teenager. I don't know what the final verdict was, but I don't like the fact that these kinds of cases enforce a "take matters into your own hands" mentality.
 
elcheeso said everything I wanted to say but was too dumb/angry to do so. Great posts.

Anyway if the people who are crying out about racism in this country (and this thread), because of this case, want to make change....wouldn't the first step be to stop making everything about race? In my opinion the worst thing you can do right now is create more division between races and by making this case such a black vs white case (by the way Zimmerman isn't even under the racial classification of "white" as DK has said numerous times) only further feeds the hate amongst both groups towards each other.
I saw a comment the other day from an Asian American girl who said she believes that race is only an issue because black people constantly bring it up and segregate themselves with HBCU's etc. One person had a great response that I think a lot of people here could benefit from reading.

When I use 'you' in this rant, I'm not talking about ONLY you OP. I'm speaking to ALL people with light skin, who continue to think public statements like this are acceptable and that by somehow throwing your ignorance around, you will convince millions of darker skinned americans that the discrimination they have to face every single day is non-existent (it won't, by the way).
Not to get into a 'this oppression is bigger than that oppression' battle, but you can't possibly think that the (still totally absolutely unacceptable) oppression of asians and hispanics in the US has created anywhere near the amount of institutionalized racism and ingrained racial hatred that the enslavement of 10-15 million africans from the 1500s to the 1800s + the jim crow era forced segregation, lynchings etc. has caused.

For those that need a very abridged history lesson, The United States of America was created by white Europeans, on land that was stolen from Native Americans, largely on the backs of African slaves. People with THEIR OWN communities, beliefs, traditions. Who were stolen from their continent en mass and then systematically turned into the equivalent of animals. Beasts of burden that white people sent into the fields, 'bred' as they saw fit, threw the white people's slops to eat (why do you think that traditional 'black' food is made of things like pig offal), raped, traded like baseball cards, and were made to shed their names, their traditions, their religion and any aspect of 'human-ness' so that their white masters could continue to convince themselves that they were justified in doing what they were doing and continue to profit off their backs.

Then when enough white people in the 1800s were unable to convince themselves any longer that these darker skinned human beings were not actually animals and were in fact human beings, black people were reluctantly given 'freedom' - but not before the white people had a war which was largely started because a large amount of (mostly rich and powerful due to the fact that they were able to build their businesses off of free land and labor) white people didn't WANT to acknowledge that black people were humans and should no longer be treated as animals or exploited so that white people could make huge profits off their backs.

After the war was over and black people were reluctantly given some human rights, it took until the 1960s (that's only about 50 years ago now) before black people were able to obtain the legal right to even openly occupy the same space as white people in every day interactions.

Are you really that naive to think that in only 50 years, 400+ years of treating black people as inferior non-human beings would just disappear?

I will admit that the affects of institutionalized racism easy enough for someone who doesn't have to live with dark skin to totally disregard. If you don't have to deal with being denied jobs, housing, educational opportunities, etc. then you won't really think about it. It won't even really be on your radar. But to basically call black people liars (because when you say these things, that is what you are really doing - telling black people that their struggles don't exist, and they must be experiencing life wrong) when you have NO EARTHLY IDEA what they go through every day is just the height of arrogance. The ability to discount what millions of black americans say happens to them on a daily basis using the notion YOU YOURSELF don't experience or see it happen in your face is totally lacking empathy, and you are deliberately alienating an entire race of people because for some reason you feel the need to shame black people and tell them that they are whining and they should just shut up already.

YES racism is still all around and YES it's still just as big of an issue as it used to be. Sure black people aren't regularly being strung up from a tree in the park by your friendly neighborhood lynch mob anymore, but people with darker skin are still being denied jobs (all you have to do is say there was a 'better qualified' applicant), still being denied housing (all you have to do is say that someone else was approved first), still being denied education (all you have to do is live in an area where better, more qualified teachers don't want to live and work aka 'urban areas') and still being treated as unreliable, untrustworthy and even dangerous because we still have remnants in our society of over 400 years of propaganda that white people created in order to convince themselves and their descendants that it was totally ok to make their fortunes off the backs of human beings who were darker skinned than them. Let's not even explore the NEW form of slavery, blacks (largely young black males) being thrown into for-profit prisons at larger percentages than white, hispanic and asians, for longer terms than white, hispanic and asians, and many times for non-violent crimes so that people can profit from their incarceration at the expense of their entire futures.

Zimmerman might have some hispanic/black heritage, but I guarantee you that he's benefited heavily from his father's white male privilege during his entire life, and has the same ingrained feelings of fear and superiority that a large percentage of white male americans have for and over black people. You can scream 'he is hispaaaaaaaaaaaanic' all you want, but to black people (and probably to himself too) he is just another white guy. Note that the family heavily downplayed his hispanic heritage during the entire thing.

Now to your point of blacks killing blacks, why do you think that black people would have grown up and lived in this very same world in which everyone has been treating them 'less than' and then NOT internalized this attitude themselves? Why do women still allow each other to be treated as if they don't have control over their own bodies (see the current issues in our country regarding access to birth control and abortion). Why are women still paid less than men in many situations? If someone can feel disgusted by themselves for being overweight, why can black people not feel disgusted by their own black skin? These feelings are shaped by external influences. I wouldn't know that being fat was gross until someone (or many someones) told me that. Otherwise I'd think that I was just me and that's the way I was supposed to look.

Until blacks can learn to love themselves, they will continue to perpetuate black-on-black crimes. Loving themselves is really difficult, however, when they are getting shit slung at them by all other races of humans, being treated as less than worthy of things like food, housing and jobs ('welfare queens', 'ripping off food stamps', being 'on the dole', 'section 8 users', 'affirmative action hire'). No one blinks a fucking eye when a white person uses these assistance programs, but if a black person does they are automatically seen as 'stealing' from taxpayers. Hispanics are also talked down about for using these services, but at a MUCH lower frequency, at least among the people I know. So black people create safe havens where they don't feel quite as attacked, in the form of black social clubs, black fraternities, historically black universities. HBCUs were created because they were NEEDED, since black people were not allowed to be educated alongside white people. They continue today in order to remember their history and provide a safe haven for blacks that is apparently STILL NEEDED! And please lets not pretend like white people don't also perpetuate segregation, don't move into whiter neighborhoods and join whiter social groups and participate in activities that are largely seen as 'white'. Why would a black person want to join a majority white tennis club, where they will be stared at and treated strangely the entire time? Why would a black person go out of their way to put themselves into a majority white situation, so they can feel odd and out of place? I know I don't do that, why would you expect that they would? So they can experience the privilege of being around light skinned people, because obviously the experience will be soooooo beneficial for them. Why don't YOU try to go to a few largely black events, experience what that feels like, and come back and tell us how you gained so much from the experience and can't wait to do it again!

My rant's over, this shit has been building up in my brain for a week and I had to explode all over the place.
 
I've said my piece and have nothing else to contribute. However, I'm posting in defense of pwnemon's grill example.

The conversation with the dispatcher at the relevant part:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.

Notice the wording. It's not "don't do that" nor is it "we'd rather you not do that." In fact, the word choice does not in any way explicitly /not/ to do it. To garner that meaning from the words, you would have to examine the tone of the dispatcher.

(start at 2:26)

I'm not in any way an expert on voice / tone / whatever, but I've listened to the dispatcher's line "Ok, we don't need you to do that" a ton of times trying to analyze it myself and I came to the conclusion that, even with the tone, it was very ambiguous.

Now pwnemon's example:

A: You in the mood for pulled pork sandwiches tonight?
B: Ok, I'll start up the grill right now.
A: Nah, I don't need you to do that.

The word choice is basically identical. The original person asks a question. "Are you following him?" = "You in the mood for pulled pork sandwiches tonight?" Afterwards, the person responds in the affirmative in terms of taking action. "Yeah" = "Yeah I am following him" and "Ok, I'll start up the grill right now" obviously indicates action. Finally, the last lines are obviously equivalent. In terms of pwnemon's example, the "Nah, I don't need you to do that." basically says...exactly what it does. I don't need you to do that! But you can imagine the conversation continuing...

B: Oh, but I insist.
A: You sure?
B: Yeah, I'm sure.
A: All right, thanks man.

While I'm not saying that's how the call with the police dispatch continued, that's a potential branch from the line "Nah, I don't need you to do that." Considering the situation, Zimmerman's mental state at the time (likely flustered?), the dispatcher's ambiguous word choice and tone...it's not hard to imagine Zimmerman thinking it wasn't wrong, or that he was just going above and beyond his duty. It's really not.

Pwnemon's example only attempted to show THAT, how Zimmerman was not in fact directly told no, but instead was given an ambiguous sentence of which he could construct multiple separate instructions that he must or must not follow. That's all. It's not in any way asinine, stupid, ass backwards, etc as other posts have suggested. If you think a post is so stupid...then explain why. Your argument really should not be "this post is dumb as fuck, I'm not responding to it" as the majority seem to be...because really, by saying so, you're the one that looks dumb as fuck. Debates in this forum would be much more fun to contribute to if they didn't devolve into "no you're dumb" "NO YOU ARE." especially when the most frequent reason for the ad hominem is that the person instigating it just didn't understand the other person's argument.
 

yond

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Dude Wikey that really didn't respond to my point at all. My point isn't that "black people" are the reason racism is still an issue at all. My point is anyone who turns any kind of controversy into a race conflict (when it really isn't one) is the issue.

I really did not want to turn this into a race debate, but after reading that atrocity of a post you quoted I feel a need to respond. In this day and age everyone minority group in this country is crying for equality and I consistently see "white males" being vilified everywhere I go, as if every white male on this planet lives with the desire to make all other groups oppressed. While I understand that minorities definitely face hardships and everyone should have concern for that... I can't sit by and just let someone "cherry pick" history like that. First of all: The South was built on the backs of slaves not all of America. The Midwest and West were built on the backs of migrant farmers (mostly European immigrants at that) and the northern cities liberated slaves long before the Civil War. The author of the post, once again, makes a sweeping generalization of white people implying that every single one of them is a racist bastard who took advantage of black people and then passed down the idea to their entire ancestral line to hate black people always. For fucks sake is that what people still believe? Yes there are still racist white people, (For that matter there are racists in every kind of people. Even people of black skin are racist towards white people... I've seen it first hand) but they are looked down upon in society by most. The majority of all people (including whites!!!) aren't racist and for most race isn't the judge of someone anymore. Most people judge others based on character and if you honestly are blind enough to not see that, I actually feel sorry for you. No white males in our generation enslaved any black people and they didn't live under law-enforced segregation like it was in the past. On the same note nor were any black people of our generation slaves or segregated. The past happened, it was horrible, and it shouldn't be forgotten. At the same time you shouldn't be using it as grounds to blame all ones problems on. Yes, there are serious issues with urban area opportunities (where most black people live) and that needs to be fixed, but what is hating on the white male going to do for them? The people who are going in there, donating money for better programs, incorporating affirmative action to improve the education of minorities and trying to help build up those communities are the white people that poster was so quick to vilify.

Everyone deserves equality and all the minorities who are working for that are 100% right in doing so. However, when people like that poster you quoted come out and bring up the past as if young white people did that to the young black people of this era I am shocked and appalled. Minorities crying out that everyone should be accepted should also understand that this includes treating white people with the same respect you are asking for. Because from what I see, all the people speaking out about this are making villains out of an entire group of people, when it's only the few who are truly at fault. Basically, my point is if you people want to end all the hate and conflict, try being the first person to make a change. If you continue to make everything an issue of one race against another, no progress will ever be made.

KD24: We discussed this on IRC, but my point wasn't about the issues being solved more in the idea that there are absolutely people our there with white skin who are at least making and effort and trying to help. There are several charity organizations that do work for people in bad situations like that, I'm sure you know of some. I was just ranting a bit after reading a terrible post and was contradicting its points. I'm not making them out to be hero's, just that they aren't bad people.
 

GatoDelFuego

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@the whole "don't need you to do that" thing

It's true that zimmerman didn't disobey anybody, but when the dispatcher said he didn't need to follow martin he said "OK". He acknowledged that the dispatchers were right! He didn't dispute that and say he was going to keep following, he made it seem like he was following the advice of the dispatcher. He didn't do anything "wrong" but it certainly wasn't the right thing to do in my mind.
 
first, blarajan thats the most ridiculous argument i've ever seen. in fact the whole comparison is beyond stupid, the 911 dispatcher isn't your buddy, they're acting as instructors. it falls apart right there, because of the implication of convenience for a friend is the context of that discussion, not that this comparison had any legs to stand on to begin with.

Yes, there are serious issues with urban area opportunities (where most black people live) and that needs to be fixed, but what is hating on the white male going to do for them? The people who are going in there, donating money for better programs, incorporating affirmative action to improve the education of minorities and trying to help build up those communities are the white people that poster was so quick to vilify.
I dunno how you can say this yondie, the biggest problem with those urban areas is NO ONE is going in there to help. you're lucky to escape to be able to take advantage of opportunities for minorities. my criminal justice teacher this year was a cop from baltimore city and she said the biggest issue is that the kids poised for success are usually being taken right away into the world of drugs/crime or they're physically beat to know their place and that those students are the ones in need of help and yet they're not getting it. while you cant blame white people, lets not build them up as heroes of contribution when in reality nothing is happening
 
yondie. Do some research on systematic racism. This isn't about the relatively simple matter of hurting someone's feelings, no one gives a shit about vilified you feel, and if racist comments didn't carry with them any weight beyond "wah that hurts my feelings", no one would give a shit about that either. Racism is deep seated in the minds of people, regardless of how many black best friends they have. If you're completely ignorant to it, you're probably taking part in it. Hell, even people who ARE aware of it are probably taking part in it, it isn't an easy thing to discard because everything about our societies set up white people (specifically white men who appear straight) as the ideal/most truthful/really hard workers who are awesome and everyone else is seen as lesser, even if it's in subtle ways. I disagree that slavery is purely responsible for systematic racism, it exists in countries like mine that never had legal slavery... but it adds another element that doesn't bode well. Anyway, so basically what you're saying is:

-THINK ABOUT WHITEY FOR ONCE, we're only 250 percent more likely to be found justified in killing a black person, and 350 percent more likely to be found justified in stand your ground states! POOR WHITEY! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...-there-racial-bias-in-stand-your-ground-laws/
-THINK ABOUT HOW WHITEY MAN IS VILIFIED BY EVERYONE, with everyone filmed the same way with the same lighting, speech etc, white men are only found 13% more trustworthy and generally better at what they did than both white women and black men! POOR WHITEY!
-THINK ABOUT HOW WHITEY FEELS WHEN we're 50% more likely to get called back for an interview over Jamal and Lakisha and more likely to benefit from additional qualifications! POOR WHITEY! http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html
-HOW CAN PEOPLE EVER ACCUSE THE SYSTEM OF BEING RACIST? Whitey would never set up a discriminatory justice system! POOR WHITEY! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-quigley/fourteen-examples-of-raci_b_658947.html
-THE JUSTICE SYSTEM BEING SYSTEMATICALLY RACIST DOESN'T CAUSE ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS FOR NON-WHITE EMPLOYMENT, white people with drug felonies have a 17% chance of being called back for a job but black people with the same qualifications and felony are 3% likely to get called back! POOR WHITEY!

Seriously dude, when I said to do some research in my first post, I meant it. It isn't hard to find, and almost all of the research points towards deep seated racism outside of the odd idiot thinking OMG BLACK PEOPLE ARE (BAN ME PLEASE)S AND BABY RAPISTS. We all perpetuate a system where black people (in the US anyway) are the lowest of the low, and even if they DO work towards being the best qualified person they can be, they benefit from it far less than your average white person does. If you can't take any responsibility for that then you shouldn't be talking about the subject. No one cares about how bad you feel when white people are blamed for this system, because they're basically crocodile tears. You benefit from it the most, whether you want to or not.

PS: POOR WHITEY!
 

yond

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Ya I never said white people had it worse than anyone else. It would be ignorant to believe or say so. I just was saying vilifying them solves nothing and is false in many circumstances. It's also why I tried to avoid it until Wikey's post just got me going. Your examples (and bitter sarcasm) is duly noted.
 

Deck Knight

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elcheeso:

Does it not dawn on you that many examples of "racism" in the criminal justice system are justified by one minor fact you seem to gloss over:

If a violent crime is going to be committed against you, it is *vastly* more likely to be committed by a black person because their violent crime rate is *vastly* out of proportion with their population. Violent crimes have longer sentences than do non-violent crimes.

Here's another little tidbit: Did you know the reason why crack is prosecuted more strongly than powder is because black people are disproportionately the *victims* of its trafficking? It's black drug dealers victimizing black clients - just like its black murderers causing a black bloodbath on the streets of Chicago. I think Hannity has been running a count of the people murdered in Chicago since the end of the Zimmerman trial and it's already easily exceeded 100. The vast majority of the "racist" stats revolve around having pity for perpetrators (all of whom presumably had a trial before permanent incarceration) or hostility towards police work, and not about the victims the police are trying to protect.

Furthermore, urban areas that seem to discriminate more against blacks tend to vote the same way as the black population of that city. So they both vote for the same "social JustUs" officials that appoint the police commissioner and other executive agents. At some point you have to realize that the job of the police is to most effectively protect their neighborhoods, and white people just aren't killing, robbing, maiming, and assaulting other white people to the same degree in proportion to their population as black or hispanic people are in their communities.

The object of criminal justice is to protect victims, not to discriminate against people. So what would you have them do in communities where the most likely person to victimize you happens to be the same race as you? In Chicago and other leftist bastions, it seems to be you just let the gangs sort it out because if you actively seek to arrest the black or hispanic gang leader, you're just going to get called a racist. Your arrest is just going to be used by (primarily white, rich, leftist) sociologists and prognosticators at Huffpo as the latest example of the undying racism of 'Murrica."

I'm really tired of being blamed for atrocities hundreds of years ago because I was born with a "ghost peach" skin tone. I'm also tired of people pretending that slaves magically appeared in chains for White Europeans when the fact is African tribalist nations invented slavery in part as a way to get rid of their prisoners of war (so they wouldn't flee and rejoin the other tribe) and still perpetuate the practice to this very day. I don't understand how people can blame White Europeans for the evils of the slave trade when their societies eventually *abolished* it, but turn a blind eye to the fact its African originators *still practice it.* I can only surmise its because they don't know the real history of either Western Civ or Africa, and that they can barely point to the home nation on a map, let alone any country in Africa.

Same with them pretending the tribalistic societies of the Native Americans were essentially just nomadic hippies and not a low-tech parallel to say, the Klingons in Star Trek. If you want to have a big whine about the evil white people who founded the Western Civilization you take for granted on a daily basis, go ahead. As for me, I recognize the history of the world is war and darkness, that North America was not a peaceful utopia before the colonists arrived from Europe, and I'm glad our society no longer feels the need to invade anyone to expand its influence, having long since shifted to free-market trade.

I imagine our descendents will have very harsh words for our behaviors as well, and call us barbarians, decadent sophists, or worse. Yet we don't feel that way about our society now, at least not those of us pushing the narrative that people hundreds of years ago were unacceptably backward ignorants while we are enlightened, "other-aware" sophisticates.
 
Why has this incident, the death of Trayvon Martin, stayed in the media for so long? The actual shooting occurred well over a year ago. I heard about it then, and it was marginally interesting news then, and is marginally interesting news now. I have never made myself familiar with the facts of the incident; just an overview of it.

I'm not going to ask what was so special about this incident that the media wanted to sensationalize it for so long; nearly all private media outlets have no real interest in not being run in as scummy a way as possible. What I am asking is why people kept eating up the shit that the media kept putting out for them.

It wasn't even good tasting shit. Its the worst kind of shit possible; the kind with racial overtones. Its ridiculous.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
So, after thinking about it for a while, I think I know where my problem with Florida law is. I still support gun rights, and conceal and carry, and even self defense. But here's what I don't support.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ing&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.041.html

Line 2A needs to change, or be removed. If you initially provoke a use of force, you should not be legally allowed to use lethal force in your own defense. No one should be allowed to start a fight, kill the person they're fighting with, and then claim self defense. I don't understand why that line is in there in the first place.

Can anyone think of a reason why that line might be there?
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
elcheeso:

Does it not dawn on you that many examples of "racism" in the criminal justice system are justified by one minor fact you seem to gloss over:

If a violent crime is going to be committed against you, it is *vastly* more likely to be committed by a black person because their violent crime rate is *vastly* out of proportion with their population. Violent crimes have longer sentences than do non-violent crimes.

Here's another little tidbit: Did you know the reason why crack is prosecuted more strongly than powder is because black people are disproportionately the *victims* of its trafficking? It's black drug dealers victimizing black clients - just like its black murderers causing a black bloodbath on the streets of Chicago. I think Hannity has been running a count of the people murdered in Chicago since the end of the Zimmerman trial and it's already easily exceeded 100. The vast majority of the "racist" stats revolve around having pity for perpetrators (all of whom presumably had a trial before permanent incarceration) or hostility towards police work, and not about the victims the police are trying to protect.
Does it not dawn on you that the likely cause of the increased crime rates within these communities is due to disenfranchisement with a system that actively oppresses them? I think I would be far less inclined to follow the law if I legitimately believed (even if you don't accept that it is true then I think it is pretty clear that this belief is pretty wide spread) that the legal system and my government were out to get me / believed that I was less valuable than another citizen by virtue of some part of me that I cannot choose. Or if I was born poverty stricken with almost no way to escape it. That's a good motivator for crime.

Furthermore, urban areas that seem to discriminate more against blacks tend to vote the same way as the black population of that city. So they both vote for the same "social JustUs" officials that appoint the police commissioner and other executive agents. At some point you have to realize that the job of the police is to most effectively protect their neighborhoods, and white people just aren't killing, robbing, maiming, and assaulting other white people to the same degree in proportion to their population as black or hispanic people are in their communities.
O as long as you vote the same way (conservative) it's ok to discriminate, right? Of course some black people can be complicit in their own oppression, it is silly to suggest otherwise.

The object of criminal justice is to protect victims, not to discriminate against people. So what would you have them do in communities where the most likely person to victimize you happens to be the same race as you? In Chicago and other leftist bastions, it seems to be you just let the gangs sort it out because if you actively seek to arrest the black or hispanic gang leader, you're just going to get called a racist. Your arrest is just going to be used by (primarily white, rich, leftist) sociologists and prognosticators at Huffpo as the latest example of the undying racism of 'Murrica."

The object of criminal justice is to protect victims, not to discriminate against people.
not to discriminate against people.

I'm really tired of being blamed for atrocities hundreds of years ago because I was born with a "ghost peach" skin tone. I'm also tired of people pretending that slaves magically appeared in chains for White Europeans when the fact is African tribalist nations invented slavery in part as a way to get rid of their prisoners of war (so they wouldn't flee and rejoin the other tribe) and still perpetuate the practice to this very day. I don't understand how people can blame White Europeans for the evils of the slave trade when their societies eventually *abolished* it, but turn a blind eye to the fact its African originators *still practice it.* I can only surmise its because they don't know the real history of either Western Civ or Africa, and that they can barely point to the home nation on a map, let alone any country in Africa.

Same with them pretending the tribalistic societies of the Native Americans were essentially just nomadic hippies and not a low-tech parallel to say, the Klingons in Star Trek. If you want to have a big whine about the evil white people who founded the Western Civilization you take for granted on a daily basis, go ahead. As for me, I recognize the history of the world is war and darkness, that North America was not a peaceful utopia before the colonists arrived from Europe, and I'm glad our society no longer feels the need to invade anyone to expand its influence, having long since shifted to free-market trade.
I imagine our descendents will have very harsh words for our behaviors as well, and call us barbarians, decadent sophists, or worse. Yet we don't feel that way about our society now, at least not those of us pushing the narrative that people hundreds of years ago were unacceptably backward ignorants while we are enlightened, "other-aware" sophisticates.
Guys the free market solved imperialism and saved the black people from themselves.

They killed each other so it's ok to kill them right?

It's ok to commit mass genocide and oppress the Native Americans because they weren't living in a peaceful utopia beforehand.

We abolished slavery guys, what more do you want?

White people are way more forward thinking than black people, they're oppressing themselves by being criminals it's not us!





You may not be personally to blame for the oppression of various minorities in the past but you are absolutely to blame for the propagation of the racism and bigotry that oppresses these people through political stagnancy now because of your (and your ilk's) vile and callous rhetorical bullshit.
 
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