Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?

Status
Not open for further replies.
BKC said:
Your argument can be summed up as "I play heavy offense almost exclusively and I never have trouble with Kyurem-B. Heavy offense also does not use Kyurem-B [untrue btw], therefore it's not broken", ignoring how ridiculous it is against defensive playstyles.

What the hell do next month's stats, any potential core, and especially the Fairy type have to do with any of this?
Click to expand...

No, my argument is:

A) OU players and their decisions didn't create the BW2 bias towards offense (and the inferiority of defensive playstyles), Game Freak did and they are trying to fix that with the new fairy type and other patches.

B) Kyube didn't have any major influence on the direction of today's metagame, is handled rather well by offensive and balanced teams, it's counters are readily available, weaknesses plenty and as far as choices go most opt for other sweepers (as of June Stats).

Edit: I'd like to see a response from the pro-banners side on alexwolf's anaylsis of it's set against the 3 major playstyles, thanks.
 
It was bad for OU then, and it's bad for OU now.

The problems Kyurem-B brings to the metagame (see my link + other users' posts in this thread for details) get more noticeable and more pronounced the more we clean up the tier. The unfortunate timing of its test left it overshadowed by other, more immediately absurd threats (especially Genesect) and, I'd argue, colored the vote quite a bit. A retest in the comparatively calmer current OU would likely be far more telling about its proper placement. (not getting my hopes up, but...come on, council!!!)
 
X5Dragon said:
No, my argument is:

A) OU players and their decisions didn't create the BW2 bias towards offense (and the inferiority of defensive playstyles), Game Freak did and they are trying to fix that with the new fairy type and other patches.

B) Kyube didn't have any major influence on the direction of today's metagame, is handled rather well by offensive and balanced teams, it's counters are readily available, weaknesses plenty and as far as choices go most opt for other sweepers (as of June Stats).

Edit: I'd like to see a response from the pro-banners side on alexwolf's anaylsis of it's set against the 3 major playstyles, thanks.
Click to expand...


So you're saying PS usage statistics accurately prove a pokemon's competitive performance?
And even if it was handled well by balance and offense ( which I would even disagree on ), the fact it is such a nightmare to one ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE shows how terrible it is for the metagame, stall is still viable, but the sheer existence of things like kyurem-b is definitely hampering it's growth.
OU players and their decisions did create the BW2 bias towards offense, we have the tools to shape the metagame however we want it to, but people like you create a bias towards offense by disregarding every other playstyle during suspect testing.
 
The question here is whether we should ban a Pokémon to improve a playstyle, especially one that has been dumped on multiple times this generation and not just by Cube.

Technically, most of the things we have banned could be dealt with, but only in very specific ways. Aura Sphere could "counter" evasion, Genesect + Dugtrio was countered by Shed Shell Heatran, Excadrill was countered by Skarmory I believe and so on.
 
Spinda said:
So you're saying PS usage statistics accurately prove a pokemon's competitive performance?
And even if it was handled well by balance and offense ( which I would even disagree on ), the fact it is such a nightmare to one ENTIRE PLAYSTYLE shows how terrible it is for the metagame, stall is still viable, but the sheer existence of things like kyurem-b is definitely hampering it's growth.
OU players and their decisions did create the BW2 bias towards offense, we have the tools to shape the metagame however we want it to, but people like you create a bias towards offense by disregarding every other playstyle during suspect testing.
Click to expand...

I'm saying the stats provide us with an insight on Kyube role in the current metagame, a factor upon many to judge him upon. Like I said and will say again, Kyube is a great pokemon, it's sub set is deadly, but I don't believe it is broken. Stall is indeed viable, I can testify to at least 10 matches with players who run stall teams and have over 2000 points to their claim (I even managed to knock a top 10 stall team down).

Every single test since the beginning of BW2 was an attempt to temper off Game Freak's decision to make BW2 an offensive metagame, even Deo-D's testing was to prevent HO teams to run rampant with almost guaranteed hazards. If a playstyle cannot fend for itself there is only so much we can do.
 
Alright, time to make a post.

Kyurem-B at first really didn't seem that broken, in fact I thought it sucked at first.

I don't think that anymore. Kyurem-B, specifically the Sub and Mixed Attacker set absolutely rape stall and can tear apart defensive teams, along with Sun. Kyurem-B doesn't have a "good" impact on the metagame, it limits it. Even offense struggles with Kyurem-B, as it just hit incredibly hard. You don't switch into Kyurem-B safely, and considering how it has a pretty solid move-pool you don't really have any "counters" to it. Choice Band is a bit overrated in my opinion because of how you basically trade one for one, and it doesn't really give you too many advantages apart from defensive teams. The mixed set however is equally as dangerous, and considering how it really does have no counters, it limits stall and sun greatly. Sun struggles with taking down Kyurem-B, which decreases diversity in oppose to increasing it. Stall has trouble with this Kyurem-B in the same sense it did with Landorus-I, but to an even worse extent. For example, when BKC brought stall the World Cup, he had faced a Dragon Tail Defensive Kyurem-B. If that had been mixed, he would have been in a lot more trouble because of how Kyurem-B breaks up stall. Thanks to it's valuable bulk and resistances Kyurem-B can tank more than you would imagine, it certainly is very useful outside of offensive rolls, but in my opinion they are just not as good. As the metagame keeps getting thinned out and more broken stuff keeps getting banned, Kyurem-B is just getting better and better.
 
I think that both parties have posted very detailed arguments supporting their claims and that this should be settled with another suspect voting of Kyube. However does anyone here belive that it should be tested before Keledo? A voice from the OU council would also be nice on the subject of supporting a playstyle by banning a threat that doesn't threaten the entire metagame.
 
Yes. It has zero safe switch ins, huge surprise factor (you never know which set youre facing until its too late) and breaks defensive cores like no one. Bulk sets cant even be properly revenge killed (keldeo cant ko without specs and even then its not guaranted, terrakion needs at least a life orb to guarante the ko, thundurus-t relies on focus blast and cant guarante the ohko even with life orb, scizor and breloom fail to ohko and even if rocks are up it inst guaranted, scarf mence doesnt guarante the ohko either even with outrage) and it hits so hard even without investment that you are simply never safe against it regardless of its spread. Band kyurem b which is arguably his worst set is still monstrous and can easily deal huge blows to the opponent team early game with dragon claw/fusion bolt and clean lategame with outrage. Kyurem-b combination of power, bulk and coverage are unmatched and make it just way too hard to deal with. Also before someone say that hyper offense deals with kyub fine keep in mind that it can ohko forre/skarm with hp fire through sturdy making sure you wont get any hazards up.
 
I don't get where this ''stall can't deal with Kyu-B'' mentality comes from, at least for the most common and dangerous set, the Sub +3 attacks, which is easily handled by stall teams with classic stall Pokemon such as SpD Jirachi and Chansey. Kyu-B is dangerous for stall to deal with, not impossible, as is Hydreigon, Sableye, and Mew (this is the only similarity between Kyu-B and those Pokemon, just sayin' before people jump on the bandwagon). Not to mention that if Kyu-B gets locked into Outrage, it will most likely be revenge killed by the scarfer / Sand Rush poke that most stall teams have, meaning that it will take down one Pokemon at most.

Also BKC, i don't know if you were referring to me, so if you were, no i don't usually play all out offense, i prefer more balanced teams and still i deal with Kyu-B fine, provided i prepare for it (you can't expect to deal with a top-tier threat you haven't been prepared for).

Finally, how some people can say that Kyu-B brought zero positive things in OU, when it's one of the few viable pokes that can fit in weatherless offense teams and go toe to toe with rain and sun teams, as well as fit on weatherless balanced and stall teams to do the same thing. It brought a much needed boost to all kind of weatherless teams.

EDIT: @ShootinStarmie

Because maybe some of us don't think sun and rain are broken.
 
alexwolf said:
Finally, how some people can say that Kyu-B brought zero positive things in OU, when it's one of the few viable pokes that can fit in weatherless offense teams and go toe to toe with rain and sun teams, as well as fit on weatherless balanced and stall teams to do the same thing. It brought a much needed boost to all kind of weatherless teams.

EDIT: ShootinStarmie

Because maybe some of us don't think sun and rain are broken.
Click to expand...
Deoxys-D and S boosted weatherless teams too, I guess we should unban those.

It has been said in Kyu-B discussion that it is the fault of the voters, well that applies to weatherless too. As a community, we have made multiple votes that allowed weather, Rain especially, to thrive. Kyu-B may aid this single playstyle but it is a huge factor in the decline of other playstyles and adds onto the mindlessness we have dealt with for the entire generation. Honestly, I'm hesitant to call a boost for weatherless a benefit for the metagame. Certain Pokemon, Terrakion, Kyu-B, Genesect, and Landorus are the ones that come to mind atm, are good regardless of which weather was in effect, if any at all. So not only are these mons boosting weatherless but they're boosting just about any offensive team (in the case of Kyu-B, Sun is an exception) which, to me, nullifies this "benefit" and adds on to the silly offensive meta we have.

A Kyu-B test after Keldeo's would be great but it may be too late by then. Even taking into consideration that XY won't be ready for awhile after its release I'm sure that caring for BW will be at an all time low (which is incredibly low looking at how this generation has gone).

I feel it is worth noting that I honestly don't care about stall. Our metagame is offensive because broken Pokemon were allowed to roam free for such a long period of time and if an offensive metagame were created without this characteristic I would be fine with it.
 
ShootinStarmie said:
Instead of trying to match Rain and Sun's brokenness, why don't we ban Kyurem-B, ban Politoed, and ban Ninetales (if they happen to become broken)? We shouldn't be keeping Kyurem-B in OU just because it checks rain and sun teams (because they are absurdly powerful).
Click to expand...
WHOA there - let's try to see the big picture of your quote. The point that alexwolf is trying to make is NOT "keep Kyurem-B because it checks Rain and Sun," but "keep Kyurem-B, because there's not enough evidence pointing that it's broken."

Yes, Kyurem-B has scary good stats, but they are offset by its critical flaws. 125/100/90 bulk are good numbers, but not so good when paired with Dragon / Ice typing, which makes Kyurem-B vulnerable to SR, Draco Meteors, Outrages, Close Combats, Bullet Punches, Mach Punches, and Stone Edges. For reference, Haxorus is taking Close Combats and Bullet Punches much better than Kyurem-B, despite its lower stats. Cool, KyuB has 170 Attack, except it can't use Outrage without being revenge-killed the following turn.

It's not hard for Offensive and Balanced teams to carry checks for Kyurem-B, and as alexwolf mentioned, even stall can play around it. Kyurem-B isn't doing anything different to stall that a SD Haxorus and other wallbreakers cannot do. A defensive Jirachi and Ferrothorn (preferably in Rain) are both solid answers to Kyurem-B. Blissey / Chansey / specially-defensive Gastrodon can tank hits from Kyurem-B that lacks Dragon STAB or after Intimidate support. Specially-defensive Heatran can tank an Earth Power and retaliate with a Lava Plume / Toxic. Even Stall teams have faster Pokemon like Latias / ScarfTar / Stoutland to punish Kyurem-B at low health or ones locked into Outrage. Not to mention, Kyurem-B is extremely weak to hazards.
 
I've had that same thought many times throughout BW2 Nysyr, but this isn't one of them. They're giving some time for the meta to settle without Landorus and I see that as reasonable.
 
Pocket said:
-snip-
Click to expand...


Do you really think "playing around it" is an answer to keep this Pokemon OU? I'm sure you could "play around" many Uber Pokemon, but it doesn't mean they aren't broken. Of course Kyurem-B is doing different things, as it's a mixed attackers (extremely hard to wall). Stuff like SD Haxorus may not be able to be walled, by they are very decently checked by sturdy walls like Skarmory, and at most they are taking out 1 Pokemon. This is the problem, nothing on a stall team (or a balance team for that matter) can face Kyurem-B. So because Heatran can tank one Earth Power you think stall teams can deal with Heatran? As for your mention of Latias / ScarfTar / Stoutland point, none of these Pokemon can switch in, meaning they are having to fodder off a Pokemon just to force Kyurem-B out, in which the Kyurem-B user is winning the trade off. Also, losing 1 Pokemon is a stall team is pretty drastic, as then the team starts to crumble (losing that Pokemon Kyurem-B just KOed is going to leave you weak to something else...)

Finally, being weak to hazards? Again, I don't think this is as big of a deal when you factor in amazing bulk, Sub, and reliable recovery. I'm not saying is doesn't care about hazards, but it doesn't care as much as you might think.
 
Woah, let me stop you right there. Sp def heatran has absolutely no way to even think about tanking an earth power:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 369-437 (95.84 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Ferro NEEDS rain to even consider trying to tank in hidden power fires, blissey/chansey/gastro are murdered by outrage and if kyurem b is the subhone claws set they become setup fodder and if its the subroost set they are getting phazed away by dragon tail and cant do ANYTHING back. While jirachi fares half decently against most sets it loses to choice band sets and the sp based mix has a decent chance at 2hkoing with epower after rocks while the physically based can do the same with fusion bolt. Both ttar and stoutland can hit it hard but neither of them are capable of guaranteing a ko while latias can only ko if its the offensive set. Also it doesnt need to use outrage early game when its checks are still alive (unless your kyub is weakened and has no more use, doing this is extremely dumb), so it wont really be easy to revenge kill. Heck choice band can just spam dragon claw/fusion bolt early game while mixed sets can pick teams apart with ice beam+coverage moves and still deal tremendous amount of damage.
 
ShootinStarmie, I just listed a number of Pokemon that can switch into Kyurem-B. Unless this Kyurem-B user has perfect prediction and uses HP Fire on my Forretress, Ice Beam my Landorus-T, Earth Power my Jirachi, and Outrage on my Blissey, it aint taking down a stall team. To say that Kyurem-B eliminates an entire playstyle is a gross exaggeration.

Yes, entry hazard damage does matter, as it limits the number of times Kyurem-B can switch in. It has no room for Roost if it wants to stallbreak, and combined with LO damage it is wearing down fast to the point that it will be checkmated by Latias, etc.

Furthermore, this is a wallbreaker set that doesn't exactly function well against more fast-paced teams. Against more common playstyles, Sub + 3 Attacks or Scarf KyuB is far more effective imo. (The same reason why back in BW1 DD / CB Haxorus was far more common than SD Haxorus).

Also this:
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Haxorus Superpower vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 268-316 (81.95 - 96.63%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So Haxorus can technically take out Skarmory and proceed to wreck stall teams, just the same as Kyurem-B. Being a potent stallbreaker isn't enough to get a Pokemon banned.

EDIT: my b on Heatran - it cant take a LO Earth Power; I was thinking of Sub Earth Power at that point.
 
When I first laid eyes on Kyurem-B my first thought was "How is this sh*t OU".
And honestly I'm sure many people felt the same way. Kyurem-B , as mentioned a million times before , has gigantic power. Kyurem-B is a rare Pokemon in terms of the fact that his STABs alone can truck through the entire OU Metagame. You know something's up when all of the Steel Types in OU are facing a potential 2HKO from a Banded Outrage or a straight-up OHKO from HP Fire or Earth Power or Fusion Bolt. Kyurem-B sports massive defenses and impressive/useful resistances. This seriously allows a ton of switch-in opportunities which is golden for an offensive Pokemon. Kyurem-B is "unpredictable" and that's what makes him significantly dangerous. Should I switch out tanking the Dragon Claw only to find out next turn it's Expert Belt? If I Volt Switch out, could he set up a Substitute and sh*t on my team? The fact that his sets lack a "universal" answer is a definite problem.
 
Kyub isnt that different from the whole ou.. even if you ban it you will have hydreygon who replaces it and so on. Sure cb outrage coming from a 170 base atk pokemon is scary but the majority of them doesnt even run max atk. Honestly kyub isnt the first one in my black list but yeah checking the sub set with a rain stal its pretty hard. I dont know what to tell you, maybe just make uber the standard tier and play that?
 
Pocket said:
ShootinStarmie, I just listed a number of Pokemon that can switch into Kyurem-B. Unless this Kyurem-B user has perfect prediction and uses HP Fire on my Forretress, Ice Beam my Landorus-T, Earth Power my Jirachi, and Outrage on my Blissey, it aint taking down a stall team. To say that Kyurem-B eliminates an entire playstyle is a gross exaggeration.

Yes, entry hazard damage does matter, as it limits the number of times Kyurem-B can switch in. It has no room for Roost if it wants to stallbreak, and combined with LO damage it is wearing down fast to the point that it will be checkmated by Latias, etc.

Furthermore, this is a wallbreaker set that doesn't exactly function well against more fast-paced teams. Against more common playstyles, Sub + 3 Attacks or Scarf KyuB is far more effective imo. (The same reason why back in BW1 DD / CB Haxorus was far more common than SD Haxorus).

Also this:
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Haxorus Superpower vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 268-316 (81.95 - 96.63%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So Haxorus can technically take out Skarmory and proceed to wreck stall teams, just the same as Kyurem-B. Being a potent stallbreaker isn't enough to get a Pokemon banned.

EDIT: my b on Heatran - it cant take a LO Earth Power; I was thinking of Sub Earth Power at that point.
Click to expand...

You actually didn't list any Pokemon that can switch into Kyurem-B. Jirachi has a chance of being 2HKO'd on the switch, as does Ferrothorn (yes, even in Rain). You say the blink blobs and Gastrodon can take on Kyurem-B lacking outrage. Okay first, that's if they are lacking Outrage (I actually think D claw would do the job, but just for arguements sake lets say D claw isn't enough). Okay great, Blissey and Gastrodon have switched into Kyurem-B, potentially taking an Outrage to the face. Now what? Blissey and Gastrodon can't touch Kyurem-B, and in the end, the Kyurem-B user is going to be winning. I already explained to you how Heatran doesn't beat Kyurem-B either, so I won't repeat myself.

Also, why are you even bringing up SD + Fighting Gem Haxorus? Is this even a thing? And my point still stands, Haxorus is at best taking out one Pokemon, as it lacks reliable recovery, or the sheer force to dent stall teams at +0 (unlike Kyurem-B)
 
I think that the anti-ban side really needs to consider that Kyurem-W, a pokemon that shares many flaws with Kyurem-B, is banned. So I must ask one question: What makes Kyurem-W broken that prevents Kyurem-B from being broken?
 
What he wanted to say is that bw will still be a shit even without kyub. Its true btw, theorycally haxorus destroys stall just like kyub (sd taunt lum or other weird stuff) as well as sd terrakion, mix mence, sd garchomp ect.

@ magcargo outrage locks you whilr draco meteor doesnt
 
Yes SD Fighting Gem Haxorus breaks stall, but mentioning sets that don't exist in the metagame is pointless. It's like saying Curse Cradily beats stall. Also, SD Haxorus is only really devastating to stall teams, where as Kyurem-B shits on so many types of teams, not just stall. Sun (offense and Stall), Rain (offense and stall), balance, weatherless (stall) etc. It's just so hard to deal with and restricts your team building (unlike say, SD Haxrous)
 
Kyurum-B is brokenly strong. The Sub set rips holes in balanced/stall teams with next to no effort, as by the time you have the set scouted you've already lost something vital to your core. Just because it isn't a problem for offense doesn't mean that having cube in the tier is healthy for the meta. The Lead Mamo+Sub Kyurum+Magnezone core basically forces your opponent into giving cube a sub, as the only pokes that can handle Mamo without being trapped are bulky waters, which are just set-up bait. I have had a stupid amount of success with that core and it required little/no "skill" on my part.

On an unrelated note, I really don't understand why everyone considers hydreigon such a potent wall breaker. SPDef Hippo does a pretty good job walling it, and residual damage wears on it pretty quickly. It's one of those things that looks like a threat on paper, and then it's pretty easy to "play around". It's also not bulky enough to take a hit from some common faster stall mons like Latias and Starmie, both of which cube has no problem shaking off. If I'm playing stall and I see an opponent with cube, I think to myself "I'm going to have to pull something out of my ass to keep this game close". My reaction to Hydreigon is more of a "oh well I might have to sac something at some point". The two are not comparable at all as threats to defensive teams.
 
LO DClaw would indeed kill the pink blobs - I would not entertain bringing them in on Kyurem-B unless I made sure that Kyu-B is the less offensive sub variants.

If Jirachi switches in on anything barring Earth Power, it will force Kyurem-B out (unless KyuB wants to risk getting paralyzed and killed by Iron Head). I can also bait Kyurem-B to use Outrage / Dragon Claw with my Politoed and bring in Ferrothorn for Iron Barb + LO recoil damage. Then Kyurem-B would be forced out, lest it wants to die to a Gyro Ball (or simply die if locked into Outrage). Or Kyurem-B can predict the switch and HP Fire / Ice Beam, only to be Encored / poisoned / Scald burned by Politoed. Etc

Basically, Kyurem-B must run 4-attacks mixed set to have a chance at taking down stall teams, and this particular moveset doesn't do particularly well vs offensive teams (which explains why this set is rare). Unlike Landorus, or even current OU mons like Terrakion, it does not have a set that can sweep and wallbreak at the same time. It is only giving trouble to stall teams, and even then stall can play around it and come up on top.

Also stall =/= BW2 OU metagame, so there's no obligation to ban a Pokemon to make Stall better. Kyurem-B must be an overwhelming force at a global metagame level if it wants to be considered banworthy, not simply a pestilence to stall.
 
Magcargo 2 said:
I think that the anti-ban side really needs to consider that Kyurem-W, a pokemon that shares many flaws with Kyurem-B, is banned. So I must ask one question: What makes Kyurem-W broken that prevents Kyurem-B from being broken?
Click to expand...


Well you see, instead of 2hkoing the metagame (which other ou pokes can do anyway) Specs Kyurem-W pretty much ohkos the metagame. I don't think further explanation is needed here...
 
Wow. I leave for two hours, and I come back to 71 posts. That's amazing guys keep up the discussion!

I think some of you guys need to back up a bit and focus more on KyuB himself, and not just the sets. Yes, some of his sets are what pushes him over the broken line, but some of you need to be more specific on why Kyurem-B as a whole is either broken or not broken.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top