Lower Tiers The RU Viability Ranking Thread

[Molk]

Alright, made some updates!

Golurk up from top B rank ----> low A rank
Roselia up from mid B rank ----> top B rank
Swanna added to top C rank
Butterfree added to low C rank
Serperior added to mid C rank

If i forgot any supported changes, just let me know and i'll make them asap :).

EDIT: just decided to make the nomination

I'd like to bring up moving Vanilluxe up from low C rank to top C rank after recent experiences with it. Vanilluxe is often overlooked as a hail abuser because of the availability of other hail pokemon such as Rotom-F, Walrein, and Glaceon, but imo i think Vanilluxe has enough going for it to stand out and warrant top C rank. Firstly and most importantly: Vanilluxe has a little bit of Speed going for it as an Ice Body pokemon, sitting at a nice base 79 and only being slower than the fastest Ice Body pokemon: Glalie by one point (note that vanilluxe hits way harder than Glalie). This lets Vanilluxe set up a Substitute on Pokemon things like Glaceon never could, such as Adamant Kabutops or Jolly Absol, and also lets Vanilluxe outspeed and KO these threats when needed while the other Ice Body mons would simply end up KOed. Vanilluxe has Automotize going for it as well, which is essentially an Agility that makes Vanilluxe take less from Low Kick and Grass Knot. While Vanilluxe's poor coverage means it might struggle to sweep on occasion, theres no doubt that Blizzards coming from a Vanilluxe after it got a Speed boost will really hurt offensive teams, and because of Ice Body, Ice Cream takes less recoil from Life Orb, which is always pretty cool. Lastly, Vanilluxe has access to Explosion, which lets Vanilluxe lure in foes that can easily take Blizzards, most notably Cryogonal, Explode on them severely weakening or possibly Koing them, and clear the way for another hail abuser to sweep unimpeded. This would be a lot cooler if the Explosion nerf didnt happen but eh, still OHKOs cryo after rocks and does a decent amount to slowking, so its not too bad i guess.

So what do you guys think?

 

[Mack the Knife]

Alright, made some updates!

I'd like to bring up moving Vanilluxe up from low C rank to top C rank after recent experiences with it.
So what do you guys think?

Yes thank you! I had given up hope, but I'm glad you've seen it's uses. I totally back this statement.

 

[Molk]

Alright, since its been a few days i guess i might as well make the Vanilluxe update (there wasn't really that much discussion outside of irc though :[).

Anyways, heres the update i made!

Vanilluxe up from low C rank to top C rank

I'll post here with another nomination if i can think of one within the next few days :). Also if anyone disagrees with the luxe move feel free to post about why it should be placed somewhere else/moved back to low C rank.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

No proposals (right now) but can we please get rid of the "cannot move this Pokemon from D" thing? If someone wants to move Dusknoir or Sandslash they should be at least allowed to try to nominate it for a higher rank - not letting anyone do that is kinda bad imo

 

[Molk]

No proposals (right now) but can we please get rid of the "cannot move this Pokemon from D" thing? If someone wants to move Dusknoir or Sandslash they should be at least allowed to try to nominate it for a higher rank - not letting anyone do that is kinda bad imo

Sure! To be honest i kinda forgot that there was a Pokemon that cannot be moved category in the first place :s. It was mainly there for Munchlax and the joke Pokemon Metang before, but after i removed those and E rank people suggested to add Dusknoir and Sandslash to the Pokemon that cannot be moved, so i ended up adding them in the end. I've removed that section from the op now, no real need for it anymore imo.

 

[Bughouse]

Speaking of D rank and Sandslash, that's really just not where it belongs. I ask in all seriousness what does a better job against Aerodactyl and Archeops? It tanks physical hits, sets up rocks and spins like nothing else. Add in the Electric immunity, which Kabutops would love, and you're in business. I successfully laddered to reqs with a Sandslash as a huge part of my team's success (since I needed to preserve Moltres) and I can't think of anything else that could have done what my team wanted.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

The thing about Sandslash is that is is a terrible Pokemon at spinning. It loses to pretty much all of the spinblockers in the tier; even Dusknoir, unfortunately, and as such it finds itself terribly outclassed as a spinner by Kabutops and Cryogonal (ie the two spinners actually worth using). Sandslash's Electric immunity may be neat, but do keep in mind that most of the relevant Electric-types still donk Sandslash (Rotom-C with Leaf Storm, Galvantula and Manectric having Grass moves). Sandslash actually isn't really that bulky, because it still loses to the powerhouses of the tier, such as Druddigon, Entei, Escavalier, and Waterfall Kabutops; having no recovery does not help it either. With its lack of recovery and helplessness against Ghost-types, Sandslash gets worn down by the very hazards it is supposed to be removing. It's not worth the trouble when Kabutops and Cryogonal can actually beat spinblockers, while even Hitmonchan can at least guarantee spins with Foresight. SR+Spin may seem neat, but you can just use two teamslots with a SR user and Kabutops/Cryogonal, and you'd be better off there.

So the cold, hard truth is this. Sandslash may have some initially appealing qualities such as Spin, SR, and the bulk, but a poor defensive typing, lack of recovery, and helplessness against spinblockers means that you're much better off running a different choice the majority of the time.

I agree with the Simipour nom though, definitely put it in Low B.

 

[Celever]

Unlike I think most of you I actually decided to try out a fully defensive Sandslash set. He was satisfactory to say the least. He easily span away hazards every battle and could tank hits after that. The thing with Sandslash is, like a lot of RU, he suffers 4MSS. I ran knock off, toxic, rapid spin and stealth rocks and he far out-did Kabutops after I decided to try out both with similar teams. We seem to be in a mind-set here in RU that pokemon like Sandslash and Dusknoir are ineffective without even trying them. I tried Dusknoir and he would arguably deserve top D but I'm not sure. Sandslash on the other hand I am confident he is good enough for Low or Mid C. Kabutops is the offensive spinner of the tier and Cryogonal is the special (both-wise) spinner of the tier. Unless you can give me a better physically defensive spinner then Sandslash belongs in mid C. Now people will talk to me now on irc telling me I'm a noob and stuff but most of you won't have tried Sandslash in the current metagame, and if so definitely not a similar set to what I posted. So basically try before you hate and move Sandslash up.

Sandslash fits great on many teams where Kabutops and Cryogonal don't, you can't deny facts and fact is Sandslash needs to be Mid C or higher.

 

[Bughouse]

You're using Sandslash wrong. Of course it loses to basically all spinners. I don't contest that. However, it can switch in on some nasty moves, like CB Head Smash from Aggron. It has good utility as a physical defensive option. Earthquake actually means Sandslash can do something to Ferroseed, unlike Kabutops. It can also do something to Qwilfish. It certainly has a big enough niche differentiating itself from the other spinners that it merits C ranking. If my team had used any other spinner, it would have been worse off.

Yes, you do have to predict around spin blockers a lot more. But it's totally doable. I mean, I did it.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I'd agree with Sandslash for Low (or Mid) C. First though I want to get stuff out of the way.

The thing about Sandslash is that is is a terrible Pokemon at spinning. It loses to pretty much all of the spinblockers in the tier; even Dusknoir, unfortunately, and as such it finds itself terribly outclassed as a spinner by Kabutops and Cryogonal (ie the two spinners actually worth using).

I don't see how it loses to every Spinblocker. Spiritomb is OHKOed after a Swords Dance boost. (252 +2 Atk Sandslash (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Spiritomb: 92.11% - 108.55% (50% chance to OHKO)) It struggles against Rotom but against Choice Scarf Rotom, which likes to spam Volt Switch, Sandslash can switch into that and literally get a free spin off unless they have 2 Ghosts (I'll elaborate a bit more one the Volt Switch part later). idk about Golurk but I think its pretty 50-50 in that case and it depends on who ran more speed. Although it doesn't beat Rotom most of the time, lolDusknoir beats it after a LONG time, and it still loses to Misdreavus horribly, beating the most common spinblocker in the tier most of the time (unless you have some crappy physically defensive Spiritomb in a one-on-one situation, and even then it is still iffy thanks to the Lum Berry) is pretty good.

Also, there a lot of good Pursuit users in the tier to trap these Pokemon, such as Absol, Escavalier, and Spiritomb. They are important for other purposes too such as serving as an offensive elimination of Slowking, something that is invaluable, so Sandslash appreciating Pursuit support isn't a bad thing.

Sandslash's Electric immunity may be neat, but do keep in mind that most of the relevant Electric-types still donk Sandslash (Rotom-C with Leaf Storm, Galvantula and Manectric having Grass moves).

Also keep in mind that Manectric almost always uses Volt Switch and is Choiced. It loses to Galvantula and Rotom-C still, but that can be said about every single Ground-type in the tier (especially for Rotom-C). That hasn't stopped Golurk or Rhydon from being in Low A though (one of Golurk's best qualities is probably its Volt Switch immunity despite being OHKOed by Leaf Storm)

Sandslash actually isn't really that bulky, because it still loses to the powerhouses of the tier, such as Druddigon, Entei, Escavalier, and Waterfall Kabutops; having no recovery does not help it either.

Sandslash shouldn't be a physical wall. If you are using it as your physical wall or only response to powerful physical attackers you've screwed yourself over pretty badly. Sandslash can take a hit and retaliate, and while almost every strong physical 2HKOs it (with 232 HP / 0 Def or something), there aren't very many physical attacks that can OHKO it. This becomes apparent in situations against Entei or even Escavalier, who risks taking a lot of damage in one on one situations (up to 80%) . Having no recovery doesn't help, but really, many top tier Pokemon that get worn down easily and don't have recovery, even stuff like Druddigon and Escavalier.

The thing I like about Sandslash that I recently noticed when I was trying it out is that it synergies very well with Flying-types, a type that really appreciates the removal of Stealth Rock. Most of the time, if you have an Scarfed Electric-type vs. Swellow or Aerodactyl or Scarf Braviary or something, it WILL use an Electric move unless it is really trying to predict (which could easily screw it over if the bird decides to use Facade/Stone Edge/Return). Sandslash can switch in, stop the momentum, and pull off the spin to get rid of Stealth Rock, which really helps the Flying types. It also makes for one of the few Pokemon to deal with the Mighty Aggron (can avoid a 2HKO from a CB Head Smash with a bit of investment) or other things such as Aerodactyl, important when you consider Aggron gets a free switch into many Flyers. Kabutops is OHKOed by CB Head Smash and any Electric move, and Cryogonal is weak to Stealth Rock (while Sandslash just resists it) and is also OHKOed by Aggron (obviously). It also performs well against Suicide Lead Crustles, which is often used as a lead for more offensive teams. Although this is admittedly minor, being the only (major) Rapid Spinner not weak to Fighting is also a nice trait.

Finally, of course, you know, the fact that it has Rapid Spin in the first place is good too. Not every team that needs hazard removal should be expected to pick either Kabutops or Cryogonal, or Hitmonchan if that thing counts as a spinner. RU may have some good spinners, but there isn't much to choose from, especially when it is VERY easy to set up Stealth Rock in RU.

For these reasons, I believe Sandslash has too many good qualities to be stuck in D-Rank and should be at least in Low C. Its not really outclassed by anything and its not horrible, so I don't know why it deserves D-Rank (maybe its because its overrated and therefore its bad qualities are highlighted that much more?)

I'd also much rather use Sandslash than some of the other Low C mons such as Beeheeyem or Murkrow.

Not sure about Simipour but I really doubt it is a Low B Pokemon. Never tried it out and I've never seen one actually do anything successful (I've seen like, 2, and they both were not that great). In general I'm not sure about all these NU Pokemon getting the same rank in here as in NU.

 

[Bughouse]

Btw, Sandslash can run Night Slash for those pesky Rotom switch-ins. I eventually opted for Rock Slide to shore up a few weaknesses (screw Stone Miss), but back in the day, I ran Night Slash and nabbed a few surprise kills.

 

[shadowpandax]

I don’t really get Sandslash going up to Mid C or Low C. I think a major problem with Sandslash, other than its poor special bulk, is the chance of getting off a spin. Chances are that most teams have a way of threatening Sandslash very easily. Sandslash is the slowest of the three “premier” spinners in RU, which typically means that it has trouble to spin after KOing the spinblocker that it’s supposed to beat because of its poor special defense and common weaknesses. If I want to use a SD spinner on a team more geared towards offense, I’d rather use Kabutops because chances are that it gets off a spin much higher than if I were to use Sandslash. It has its niches, such as being able to switch into Electric attacks and having somewhat ok defense (although saying it beats CB Aggron is not true, it gets 2HKOed by Heavy Slam defensive or not), but Kabutops doesn’t have a terrible time trying to switch in. It can switch into CB Entei Flare Blitz with no real problem, and then beat the ghosts right after an SD boost. If you run defensive Sandslash, you’re not getting past any ghosts anytime soon. I’d prefer reliability of getting off a spin with Kabutops than Sandslash, and relying on the fact that Pokemon like Misdreavus aren’t very common is something I wouldn’t take a chance on (even if the ladder is really not keen on what’s good or bad).

On another note though, I feel that the ranking system has gotten a little too lenient. Pokemon like Beheeyem and Murkrow are certain examples of Pokemon that I think would be more suited for Top or Mid D rank than Low C, and recently, some Pokemon have been just getting whatever ranking one person feels comfortable with. I know that no one really uses these Pokemon, but to be perfectly honest, they don’t really have a “notable niche” like what the C rank description says.

Sorry if anything’s not really clear or if I missed over a point about Sandslash, I don’t really have too much time on my hands. Maybe Sandslash for Top D, but as the D rank description says something about relatively low reward compared to a higher ranked Pokemon, this is really the case with Sandslash when comparing it to the other spinners in the tier.

 

[SilentVerse]

On another note though, I feel that the ranking system has gotten a little too lenient. Pokemon like Beheeyem and Murkrow are certain examples of Pokemon that I think would be more suited for Top or Mid D rank than Low C, and recently, some Pokemon have been just getting whatever ranking one person feels comfortable with. I know that no one really uses these Pokemon, but to be perfectly honest, they don’t really have a “notable niche” like what the C rank description says.

I agree with this a lot tbh; I feel a big problem with the way the rankings currently are is that D-rank's definition makes it so that no one really wants to put any Pokemon there, since a lot of people don't want to admit that the Pokemon they like to use is "below average in RU". Imo, D-rank should be where Pokemon who are generally outclassed, but do have small advantages over the Pokemon in higher tiers, should be placed, in addition to the Pokemon who are just kinda mediocre in RU. That way, stuff like Skuntank and Swoobat (granted, I haven't used these, but idk I feel I'd rather use something like Drapion / Sigilyph anytime I'd want to use them?), who are honestly almost completely outclassed by Pokemon in higher tiers won't clog up C-rank so much, which would help players see what Pokemon actually have a "notable" niche in RU.

 

[Celever]

In spite of the above post I decided to look through C rank for pokemon who really should be D:
Vigoroth
Beheeyem
Victreebel (at the very least Low C, it's too high in Mid C IMO)
Ditto (See Victreebel)
Flareon
Camerupt (He got a lot of hype earlier but he's not actually that good)
Gabite (Out-classed is a perfect word to describe him)
and MAYBE Marowak, but I'm just not a big fan of Marowak, I don't really know.

Now that was a lot of pokemon moving down, so let's look into D rank at the thought of a couple pokemon moving up to C.
Gothorita.
Her niche is totally unique. Along with Trapinch they are the only two trappers of RU (and NU) via ability and Gothorita had mention of being suspected in NU. The way she traps pokemon here and, if they are walls, sets up Calm Minds on them or if they are frail simply blast them with a Psychic is definitely worthy of C rank IMO. I would put her in Mid.

Vileplume
Vileplume has a good niche of being the physically defensive but offensive grass type of the tier. With the dual STAB Tangrowth lacks Vileplume can become a reliable tank if played well, and he needs pretty much no team support, he is the team support.

I don't know that's just what I think about these pokemon, I mentioned a bunch of pokemon that should move down, but can you honestly tell me that any of them are effective in this current metagame?
If your answer was no then you are correct!

Also Swoobat should stay in C because the niche he has is simple Calm Mind/Nasty plot, allowing it to either use Nasty Plot and Amnesia in one turn with Calm Mind of max out its Special Attack in one turn and proceed to sweep. If you can get the strategy to work it is fantastic, so he has a good enough niche to stay in C.

 

[Molk]

I'd be totally fine with moving some of the lower C rank Pokemon down to D rank and changing around the definitions a little bit. C rank does have a tendency to get a little bit crowded after a while because as was mentioned before, people don't like to admit that their Pokemon probably belongs in D rank, and will end up suggesting it for C rank instead. This way we could clear out the C rank or uneeded Pokemon a little bit and change the definition of D rank a bit so its easier to see if your Pokemon fits in D rank or C rank. Even if the person nominates their Pokemon for a higher rank, we could just look at the definitions and see that D rank fits it better and mention that. As for the specific Pokemon that were mentioned, i'll post my thoughts on them below in italic.

Murkrow: No problem with this, Krow can be annoying at times but its really not that great of a mon overall
Beheeyem: No problem with this either, Beheeyem can do some damage but theres no getting around how much competition it recieves from the other Psychic-types.
Skuntank: No problem with moving Skuntank down, sure it has its advantages over Drapion in Sucker Punch, better Special bulk, and Fire Blast, but its still pretty outclassed overall.
Swoobat: I could actually see Swoobat staying in C rank tbh, that extra Speed it has over Sigilyph is really nice, and so is the idea of Simple Calm Mind, after a boost Swoobat actually hits a bit harder than Sigilyph because of simple actually. I've seen Swoobat used pretty effectively in the past and although it does recieve a lot of competition from Sigi i think a C is fine for it.
Vigoroth: No problem with moving Vigoroth down either, its pretty cool but its really not absolutely amazing, and one move Normal-type coverage doesn't help tbh :/.
Victreebel: Should definitely stay in C rank, Victreebel is easily one of the most threatening tools that a manual sun team in RU could possibly have, even (iirc) OHKOing the entire tier after a single growth boost. I know that the boost might be hard to get in the first place, but theres no denying how threatening it makes Victreebel in the sun, and bel can still do quite a bit of damage even without a boost between Solarbeam/Giga Drain/Leaf Blade, Sludge Bomb, and sun boosted Weather Ball.
Ditto: Could probably stay in C rank. Ditto's still a pretty nice revenge killer although its rarely seen, and even outside of the revenge killing role it makes a pretty nice scout as well, scouting out entire sets simply by switching in.
Flareon: I could see Flareon is either D rank or C rank to be honest. It does have some nice special bulk, Wish, Heal Bell, and Flash Fire going for it. But at the same time it struggles with a weakness to Stealth Rock that holds it back quite a bit and means it can get worn down/put into 2HKO range pretty easily if the Flareon user isn't careful. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Camerupt: Could probably stay in C rank, I've seen Camerupt used pretty effectively in the past, while its defenses aren't really top notch it does have some cool resistances/immunities going for it, and i'd say it has a pretty cool niche in Electric immunity+Fire resist with Stealth Rock, phazing, and a nice dual STAB combination.
Gabite: No problem with putting this in D rank.

As for one of the other proposed changes: Simipour definitely seems like a pretty cool Pokemon between Nasty Plot, Torrent, and its nice Speed stat, but personally i think low B rank might be pushing it a bit. Simipour seems more like a C rank mon to me, idk. I'll try out Simipour myself later and see what i think after a bit of testing.

i'll post/edit something about Sandslash once i get my thoughts together.

 

[Celever]

As I said on irc Murkrow should stay in C rank. It has a wide movepool capable of creating switches quickly, it can run the Swagplay set Liepard is famous for except it has reliable recovery in roost and is bulkier than Liepard with eviolite. He is unpredictable in that he can use featherdance to force a switch, or he could even trap you with mean look and perish song and keep roosting for a couple of turn. If your opponent has been setting up Murkrow also gets priority haze, if you hate facing CP Sigilyph the priority haze completely shuts it down for something to switch in and take the Sigilyph out. A life orb set is viable too, according to Molk and Shake, I haven't used life orb Murkrow though. Another thing Murkrow has is reliable damage in night shade against walls, and even psycho shift to get rid of toxics walls might press onto Murkrow. He also has access to priority Rain Dance and Sunny Day.
Murkrow's movepool is simply amazing, providing support to teams, being checks or even counters to many other pokemon and even being able to run an offensive set Murkrow always has a trick under his witch's hat.

 

[Mack the Knife]

Y'know to me Glaceon is a bit better to me than Walrein. So I nomintate Glaceon for Low A Rank and Walrein for Top B Rank

 

[Celever]

I thought we agreed a while ago to have all hail pokemon no higher than Top B. And either way we should probably focus on getting C tier sorted out before other propositions.

 

[EonX]

Ok, going to try and cover everything I can here. Forgive me if I miss something. First up, all the C-rank propositions:

Murkrow: While I don't see Murkrow a lot, there's no denying that it has a crazy wide movepool to work with. It has Prankster and a plethora of support options Clever already mentioned. Its good weather support, can completely shut down any set-up sweeper at a moment's notice, has reliable recovery, and it even has U-turn to build momentum. It's not complete garbage offensively either. Base 91 Speed is a good Speed tier in RU as it outspeeds Lilligant, Moltres, and quite a few others. Base 85 offenses aren't the best in the world, but it's certainly usable. Should stay C-rank.

Beheeyem: I'm ok with this move I guess. Sure, it has a ton of power, but there are so many Psychic-types in RU that it has to compete with. Of course, it doesn't help that you compete almost directly with Slowking for a teamslot. The TR set has to deal with Slowking, Mesprit, and even Exeggutor. the Specs set has to deal with Slowking primarily, but there's also Mesprit and Gardevoir to deal with. Analytic does give it a niche, but it just has so much competition to deal with. I'd go with Top-D rank.

Skuntank: Molk covered my thoughts pretty well here.

Swoobat: I know Simple Calm Mind gives it a niche, but I just don't think it's enough of one to keep in C rank. Yeah, it's a little faster than Sigilyph, and yes, it does have Simple CM to boost twice as fast as Sigi, but it's even frailer than Sigilyph is and it doesn't have the ability to ignore passive damage like Sigilyph does (which does help to makeup for Sigi's lack of bulk at times on offensive sets) I guess it would be ok if it stayed in Low C or something, but I would prefer to see it go down to Top D.

Vigoroth: Definitely ok with this moving down tbh. Mono-normal coverage is pretty terrible when there's Rhydon, Steelix, and quite a few Ghost-types running around (Golurk, Spiritomb, and Rotom)

Victreebel: Definitely think this should stay in C rank. It's one of the few Chlorophyll users that can actually go mixed and it has Weather Ball so it doesn't have to rely on HP Fire. The only remotely common Scarfer that can outspeed Victreebel in sunlight is Manectric, so it's difficult to revenge kill without priority (and it resists Aqua Jet) It 2HKOes everything at worst in sunlight after a boost... no exceptions.

Ditto: Kind of on the fence with this one, though leaning toward keeping it in C rank. The ability to revenge kill pretty much anything your heart desires is neat as well as the ability to scout entire sets at will.

Flareon: Oh, Flareon how I love thee but Gamefreak hates thee. Joking aside, I'd be ok with Flareon moving down to Top D. The Stealth Rock weakness just kills it and many of the things it is usually used to check have a coverage move for it. Most Grass-types have a secondary STAB (Exeggutor, Amoonguss) a coverage move (Sceptile, Tangrowth) or just a physical set entirely (Sceptile) to get around Flareon. Outside of the Grass resistance, I just think it's outclassed by the next Pokemon I'm going to cover, so more on that in a moment.

Camerupt: If you really want a Specially Defensive Fire-type, this is the better choice. Secondary typing to make it immune to Electric, neutral to Rock, and it isn't ripped apart by SR. Honestly, unless you really need a Grass resistance with your defensive Fire-type, I'd use Camerupt over Flareon. Leafeon works well enough with Camerupt to make up for the lack of Wish and Heal Bell support that Flareon would provide while Camerupt has SR, a phazing move, and 2 STABs that have pretty decent coverage together to discourage setup. Definitely for keeping Camerupt in C rank.

Gabite: Nothing to add onto here. Cool with the move to D rank.

Simipour: I don't have a ton of experience with it, but I think on the front, Top C would fit it a little better. That said, I will need to playtest it more to prove or disprove my opinion on it.

Sandslash: I'll reserve the right to comment on this later. Don't really have the time to organize all of my thoughts on it right now.

Glaceon/Walrein: I've kinda thought Glaceon is the best overall Hail abuser for a long time now. That said, the whole no Hail Pokemon higher than Top B thing has a precedent (with my nomination of Glaceon to Low A as the example oddly enough) so yeah.

 

[Mack the Knife]

I thought we agreed a while ago to have all hail pokemon no higher than Top B. And either way we should probably focus on getting C tier sorted out before other propositions.

Then why is Walrein low A? If there should be at least one in low A, it should be Glaceon.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I agree with most of what EonX has said, although I think Swoobat should stay where it is because the Speed is nice to outpace things like Scolipede. As for the Glaceon/Walrein matters, the no hail mons higher than B has been covered before, the main reason Walrein is the one in Low A is because Walrein is extraordinarily broken when used in hail (and hence the best hail abuser in the tier). That said, I'm here to propose a D-Rank definition change:

Reserved for Pokemon that have a very limited niche in the RU metagame. These Pokemon often have large flaws that cost more than they're worth, or face large competition to the point where their use is limited to specific teams.

Feel free to change this up a bit if you'd like, I'm just saying we should probably change the definition.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Honestly, what does Ditto actually manage to revenge kill in RU? This isn't OU where you have Dragon-types using Dragon Dance that OHKO themselves and the rest of the tier with Outrage in due time. There are very, very few Pokemon that can actually serve as offensive checks to themselves without dying, and a majority of them are pretty slow. The only Pokemon that boost their speeds alongside their power are Crawdaunt (who I guess Ditto can really take advantage of your team if it does that tbh, but it doesn't work through a Sub anyway), Feraligatr (who honestly really needs that Life Orb boost, and it resists its own STAB - good luck sweeping your opponent with a Dittogatr), and Lilligant (who is raising its own special defense anyway, can use Sleep Powder on Ditto, or just keep setting up). Ditto could take down a Swords Dance sweeper such as Gallade, Kabutops, or Absol but those guys are typically frail enough to send out a Choice Scarf user of your own, or even something that is bulky enough because, again, the Life Orb boost not being there kinda hurts.

tl;dr Ditto should probably be D-Rank. It only does work against a few teams.

 

[complete legitimacy]

Flareon and Vigoroth certainly have niches; they just require support. They are both good enough for C rank. If this is not enough to sway people's minds, I request the reasoning of user: SilentVerse.

 

[Molk]

Hey everyone, just wanted to post again and let everybody know that i've officially added Simipour to top C rank for now. I'm going to give the rest of the currently discussed mons (Sandslash, C-D mons) a day or two before i make any changes involving them to make sure everything ends up fully discussed. But right now, i think its fine to move Simipour because there haven't been any objections to it at least getting a C rank afaik (?) I've tested it out myself and it was pretty nice, although i don't think its top tier material.

Anyways, looking at the ranks, i was thinking that Klinklang looked a little bit odd in top B rank to me. I know from experience just how amazing Klinklang can be with the proper support, but thinking about it, i think Klinklang would probably fit in a little better in either mid B rank or low B rank because of its notable coverage issues: Klinklang has always had a bit of a problem with a small movepool, not getting many really good physical moves outside of its two signature moves, Substitute, and tms every Pokemon gets such as Return, which often leaves it walled early game by common threats such as Steelix or Escavalier. Of course Wild Charge fixed this up a bit and lets Klinklang get past a few of the pokemon that check it when its running return, such as weakened Slowking and Poliwrath, but ends up being walled by a different pool of common Pokemon including Lanturn and Rotom-C, and still has a bit of trouble with some of the Pokemon that wall Return varients such as the aforementioned Steelix and Escavalier. Wild Charge has recoil too, meaning the opponent can on occasion lure Klinklang into killing itself with its own recoil, or brining it into KO range of another move, instantly stopping a sweep. I guess what i'm trying to say is, Klinklang isn't a bad Pokemon by any means, far from it in fact, but that small movepool really does let it down sometimes, and because of the fact that both varients of Klinklang can be walled by common threats, i think it should be placed lower down in B rank instead of being right at the top.

 

[Molk]

o_k, i've updated the ranks with moving the C rank Pokemon down to either low C rank or to top D rank, here's a summary of the changes i've made so far.

Beheeyem down from low C rank ---> top D rank
Swoobat down from mid C rank ---> low C rank
Gabite down from low C rank ---> top D rank
Ditto down from mid C rank ---> low C rank
Flareon down from low C rank ---> top D rank

I might make a few other changes later depending on whether or not anyone strongly disagrees with these changes/wants more Pokemon moved down.

I've also moved Sandslash up to low C rank for the time being, although i'll move it back down if theres any really strong opposition. Klinklang is still up for discussion