I think that Keldeo is very good but I wouldn't go as far to say it is broken. There are viable counters that have already been mentioned and any successful teams have 1 or more Keldeo counters. It's kind of like Raikou in UU a very good mon but the metagame has adapted and counters rose in usage to counter Raikou. It's a similar situation with Keldeo very good but counterable.
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Keldeo, evaluating a potential suspect test.
- Thread starter Pocket
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Keldeo is definetly a monster in this metagame - but there's a difference between being a monster and being broken. Each one of Keldeo's sets have counters that happened to be already common before he was released, even if said counters depend on the coverage move he's using. For instance, the closest thing to a Genesect counter (That wasn't obliterated by its usual partners, that is) at the moment was a pokémon that absolutely loathes the OU environment such as Rotom-H, resisting every single common move of its
Yes, your Keldeo counter(s) may be overwhelmed by the set he's using but you are not exactly forced to use niche counters. As much as I hate facing him (Or rather, due to that) and because I'm slowly returning into competitive Pokémon after a five-month hiatus (Although I never stopped reading Smogon, even if unlogged), I'm not sure if it's worthy of a test
Yes, your Keldeo counter(s) may be overwhelmed by the set he's using but you are not exactly forced to use niche counters. As much as I hate facing him (Or rather, due to that) and because I'm slowly returning into competitive Pokémon after a five-month hiatus (Although I never stopped reading Smogon, even if unlogged), I'm not sure if it's worthy of a test
wait wait wait waaaaaaaaaaaaait
slow down there
youre telling me theres no problem with this? what the actual fuck?
So keldeo has "counters", and he can overwhelm them at times. but this is ok because the mons we are using arent niche counters. man thats dumb.
So youre telling me just because celebi, for example, happens to counter keldeo he isnt worthy of a test, even when MORE OFTEN THAN NOT keldeo can just breeze past celebi? so wtf is my counter for if keldeo can overwhelm him? "theyre so common in OU you can make a team with them!" yeah go make a team of celebi / latias / gastrodon and see how far that gets you vs a tyranitar. or maybe you want a team of max spdef rotom-w / gyarados / jellicent and now you have a nice trio of water types, which just severely restricted your teambuilding. did i mention keldeo can walk past these two 3mon cores anyways?
and pleeease dont say bullshit like niche counters arent required. that amoonguss sees usage in OU should be enough to demonstrate how centralizing this pokemon is. i wonder who of you theorymonners will be the first person to post "AMOONGUSS WOULD SEE USAGE IF KELDEO WERENT OU ANYWAYS", i got my face ready for the facepalming.
I may still use Amoonguss if Keldeo got the boot, its still bar none one of the best checks to Breloom, and with Keldeo gone I would be free to run a physically defensive spread to check things like Terrakion.
I do agree though, it would lose a ton of overall usefulness, becoming a very niche Pokemon.
I do agree though, it would lose a ton of overall usefulness, becoming a very niche Pokemon.
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Yes. There are plenty of lower tier Pokemon that are considered the 'best' but aren't broken. The most prominent one that comes to mind is RU Slowking. It can perform multiple roles, excels at them, and can fit on just about any team. But is it broken? No, far from it. No respected RU player (that I'm aware of) thinks Slowking is ban worthy or even close for that matter. BW1 UU Snorlax also comes to mind as a 'best' pokemon that isn't broken. Point of the matter, is that some Pokemon will always have the edge over others. Be it that they wall more things, support more things, or sweep more things. You can ban all you want but there's always going to be that top 3-5 threats (or even just 1) that have an edge over the rest of the tier. Best Pokemon in tier x ≠ broken. That said, I'm inclined to think that Keldeo isn't broken, but I am indifferent on whether or not its role in OU is positive or negative. This was posted a page ago, but I really thought this notion was a little too silly to not address.
I've honestly never had that much of a problem with keldeo. I mean the thing is fantastic, but my team has always been able to revenge kill it if keldeo did end up taking out one of my mons not to mention that all of keldeos choice sets are fairly easy to wall with a little prediction. I'm not all that great in competitive OU, so maybe people higher up on the ladder use it better. Still that's my two cents.
Ok, so Keldeo is really interesting when you look at it. It's a fact that Choice Specs Keldeo is really powerful, but honestly that's really the only broken set. Plus, because of it's somewhat terrible movepool, it will always have sure counters in Jellicent and Celebi. However, on some of my Specs sets I run Hasty Nature with X-Scissor to catch Celebi on the switch. On non-physically defensive sets, its usually a 2HKO, but its a bit silly for a last moveslot. But, then again...Keldeo is pretty limited.
For the scarf set, Rotom is a great counter, and any other variant of Keldeo including the specs set is taken out by other scarfers or pokemon that are faster like Tornadus or Jolteon (not that anyone uses those two pokemon anymore) or in my case Starmie with Psychic/Psyshock, which I run on my main OU team.
So while i feel that Keldeo isnt worth banning or even trying to ban (we did the suspect before right?), honestly, I'm sure a lot of people will end up disagreeing about that and Keldeo's gonna get put on the suspect platter and sliced up and shipped out to Ubers anyhow. I'm quite close to getting the rank in order to participate in suspect testing, but if not, here's my opinion about Keldeo: DONT SUSPECT TEST IT! I like Keldeo in OU and it never seems to pose a threat to me, and. If it does get suspect tested, then im against a ban for sure.
For the scarf set, Rotom is a great counter, and any other variant of Keldeo including the specs set is taken out by other scarfers or pokemon that are faster like Tornadus or Jolteon (not that anyone uses those two pokemon anymore) or in my case Starmie with Psychic/Psyshock, which I run on my main OU team.
So while i feel that Keldeo isnt worth banning or even trying to ban (we did the suspect before right?), honestly, I'm sure a lot of people will end up disagreeing about that and Keldeo's gonna get put on the suspect platter and sliced up and shipped out to Ubers anyhow. I'm quite close to getting the rank in order to participate in suspect testing, but if not, here's my opinion about Keldeo: DONT SUSPECT TEST IT! I like Keldeo in OU and it never seems to pose a threat to me, and. If it does get suspect tested, then im against a ban for sure.
Keldeo can be quite a problem to deal with, in terms of things switching in on it, I wouldn't say it's broken at all. Keldeo's stabs can be resisted and ineffective for Jellicent for one, when it's in Rain is another story. Keldeo can do serious work if you predict right. It's just a good OU mon to use and it's fairly easy to use, imo at least. I don't feel like Keldeo is worth banning, but I can say it's a monster in Rain with Hydro Pump and such. I just think it's a pretty good mon to use in general, not broken, but strong.
I'm not quite decided on Keldeo yet, but my thoughts at the moment are;
The main issue at the moment is Keldeo's unpredictability - it has a fairly barren movepool, sure, but it gets just enough to be able to threaten all of it's would-be counters. For example, Celebi walls most Keldeo sets - unless it's the Expert Belt HP Bug set, or Choice Specs under Rain. Jellicent can counter Keldeo fairly effectively - unless it's Specs with Hidden Power Ghost or Electric. Latios can revenge kill Keldeo by outspeeding and using Psyshock or Draco Meteor - unless Keldeo is Scarf, with HPump under rain, or HP Ghost/ Bug (though needs a bit of prior damage/ Latios switching in on the first attack). Basically, between Specs, Scarf, Expert Belt and the rare Calm Mind set, Keldeo can basically get past any of it's counters (especially with Pursuit Tyranitar or Politoed support), and predicting which of it's several viable sets it's running is almost impossible to determine right away (unless it's SubCM; in which case Lefties gives it away - but that's one of Keldeo's lesser sets anyway).
Also. I just wanted to mention that literally everyone in the entire community is OK with their being a few 'best' pokemon in OU. I mean, look at freaking Scizor - does anyone complain about him? No, and for good reason. So can people please not use the ridiculous argument of:
You guys just keep on banning the best stuff in OU
And before long,
We'll be left with nothing but Magikarp!
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
*takes a deep, calming breath*
The main issue at the moment is Keldeo's unpredictability - it has a fairly barren movepool, sure, but it gets just enough to be able to threaten all of it's would-be counters. For example, Celebi walls most Keldeo sets - unless it's the Expert Belt HP Bug set, or Choice Specs under Rain. Jellicent can counter Keldeo fairly effectively - unless it's Specs with Hidden Power Ghost or Electric. Latios can revenge kill Keldeo by outspeeding and using Psyshock or Draco Meteor - unless Keldeo is Scarf, with HPump under rain, or HP Ghost/ Bug (though needs a bit of prior damage/ Latios switching in on the first attack). Basically, between Specs, Scarf, Expert Belt and the rare Calm Mind set, Keldeo can basically get past any of it's counters (especially with Pursuit Tyranitar or Politoed support), and predicting which of it's several viable sets it's running is almost impossible to determine right away (unless it's SubCM; in which case Lefties gives it away - but that's one of Keldeo's lesser sets anyway).
Also. I just wanted to mention that literally everyone in the entire community is OK with their being a few 'best' pokemon in OU. I mean, look at freaking Scizor - does anyone complain about him? No, and for good reason. So can people please not use the ridiculous argument of:
You guys just keep on banning the best stuff in OU
And before long,
We'll be left with nothing but Magikarp!
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
*takes a deep, calming breath*
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keldeo is pretty strong. the belt set only has a few counters; jellicent / celebi depending on hidden power, max hp latias, and amoonguss are the really viable ones. most stuff gets annihilated by the proper move, and keldeo can always just toss out an icy wind to slow down latios / jirachi...the specs set is just hilariously broken. you need a water immunity to beat it because specs rain hydro pump 2hkos every water resist (excluding like, max max celebi). it's fast, it's strong, it's resistant to SR, and it has arguably the best coverage in the game. throw on top of that an already obscenely powered stab that gets a x1.5 boost in a very common weather (and ohkos all weather setters...) and it's pretty clear on which side of the ou-uber fence keldeo should sit.
Since you are so keen to vote in a Keldeo suspect test, its important to clear up some of your logic. For instance, Rotom-W is not a counter to the Scarf Set, as Sacred Sword threatens a 2KO factoring in SR or a tiny bit of residual damage. Rotom-W also takes a decent chunk just switching in on a water move under rain, so its not an amazing choice switching in on Keldeos STABs period, especially as it lacks viable recovery.
Secondly the Specs set like destroys all 3 of the mons you listed, so currently, your claim is that its 100% ok if I have to sac something every time to comes in so I can force it out with my scarfer which is terrible logic. Its one of the reasons people are so anti Kyurem-B atm.
I'm sorry I've clearly confused everyone by what I meant: I agree that it's ok that there's a best pokemon in a given tier. What I meant was go chew on why it got itself to that spot and why it's ok or not ok in other metagames where there's a similar example. That's why I started talking about why Keldeo is in that position and why it's different than something like Scizor / Chomp / Rak which are clearly inferior and will be whether or not Keldeo is there. I didn't post my opinion on Keldeo, I asked you to do the thought exercise because suspect testing is still more of a learning process than anything.
For the record I don't think Keldeo is as directly unhealthy as Landorus or other things I wrote way too much about.
For the record I don't think Keldeo is as directly unhealthy as Landorus or other things I wrote way too much about.
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I ran a few calcs on some of the checks to Specs Keldeo (along with rain).
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-194 (40.59 - 48.01%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (guaranteed with Bug)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss in rain: 186-219 (43.05 - 50.69%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 321-378 (79.45 - 93.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, that's a lot of damage getting thrown around. I thought these were checks to Keldeo? They take a huge hit on switch-in, allowing Tyranitar to come in and finish them off. I'm noticing a lot of similarities when I look at our last suspect test (Lando-I) and this potential. What exactly can they do in return, other than stall? I'm not saying Keldeo is broken, but when a pokemon is able to abuse Drizzle to a point where it's 2 HKO'ing everything by just using Hydro Pump. Like in the last test, T-tar was a large reason with why Lando-I's Rock Polish set was so devastating was because of Tyranitar's Pursuit abilities.
Now, I'm not saying Keldeo is broken, but I've been using Keldeo a lot recently, and honestly it's just a ridiculous weather abuser. It's the ultimate weather abuser, barring Sun. I use it on my sand teams, and I find myself being a lot less careful with Tyranita or Hippo, because losing the weather war is not a huge issue.... I have a pokemon on my team that benefits from rain to the point that if I do lose the weather war, can abuse their weather.
The real issue in my mind is the fact that it gets it all: bulk, power, AND to top it all off it gets a move that hits on the physical side with STAB. So basically, Keldeo is a mixed attacker who doesn't have to split his EVs in order to get the KOs.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-194 (40.59 - 48.01%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ghost vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- 25.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (guaranteed with Bug)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss in rain: 186-219 (43.05 - 50.69%) -- 58.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 321-378 (79.45 - 93.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
As you can see, that's a lot of damage getting thrown around. I thought these were checks to Keldeo? They take a huge hit on switch-in, allowing Tyranitar to come in and finish them off. I'm noticing a lot of similarities when I look at our last suspect test (Lando-I) and this potential. What exactly can they do in return, other than stall? I'm not saying Keldeo is broken, but when a pokemon is able to abuse Drizzle to a point where it's 2 HKO'ing everything by just using Hydro Pump. Like in the last test, T-tar was a large reason with why Lando-I's Rock Polish set was so devastating was because of Tyranitar's Pursuit abilities.
Now, I'm not saying Keldeo is broken, but I've been using Keldeo a lot recently, and honestly it's just a ridiculous weather abuser. It's the ultimate weather abuser, barring Sun. I use it on my sand teams, and I find myself being a lot less careful with Tyranita or Hippo, because losing the weather war is not a huge issue.... I have a pokemon on my team that benefits from rain to the point that if I do lose the weather war, can abuse their weather.
The real issue in my mind is the fact that it gets it all: bulk, power, AND to top it all off it gets a move that hits on the physical side with STAB. So basically, Keldeo is a mixed attacker who doesn't have to split his EVs in order to get the KOs.
Overall Ropeburn I agree with you, however, Tyranitar isn't found on rain teams :p, if anything it would be Scizor which traps those Pokemon after they take a hit.
I also want to note that once one sees what move Spec-Keldeo is stuck into, one can easily pivot around it, especially if they are using a Hidden Power. Hydro-Pump is dangerously powerful, but one must remember that Hydro-Pump is missing 20% of the time, turning that 59% 2HKO on Amoonguss for example, into happening 38% of the time, not to mention Hydro-Pump is on the clock with it's low PP. A lot of defensive teams also have water immune Pokemon like Jellicent to pivot into, even Blissey and Chansey take Hydro-Pump well enough, if not EVed stupidly.
I also want to note that once one sees what move Spec-Keldeo is stuck into, one can easily pivot around it, especially if they are using a Hidden Power. Hydro-Pump is dangerously powerful, but one must remember that Hydro-Pump is missing 20% of the time, turning that 59% 2HKO on Amoonguss for example, into happening 38% of the time, not to mention Hydro-Pump is on the clock with it's low PP. A lot of defensive teams also have water immune Pokemon like Jellicent to pivot into, even Blissey and Chansey take Hydro-Pump well enough, if not EVed stupidly.
I don't really know if Accuracy should be taken into account, honestly, because you're betting your chances on a ~40% that you won't die. One of the main reasons Lando-I was banned was because of its sheer force set, which included Focus Blast, which guaranteed tons of kills, and that was never really taken into account when judging him, because it had a decent chance of hitting both. That's not a coin flip I want to bet one of my pokemon on.
As for keldeo:
Overall, I may have exxaggerated Keldeo's power, but honestly, can anyone say Keldeo brings anything....good to the table? All I'm seeing in terms of arguments is "What's one more water resistance on your team?". It's just that we're limiting our options. OU is becoming very cookie cutter, because you have to watch out for so much. What do we lose by banning Keldeo? A nerf to Drizzle? Oh no.
Thanks for the reponse ScarfWynaut; the PP of Hydro Pump isn't something I had considered before. That may be something I have to keep in mind during my next session. However, I'd still have to say I'm a bit more biased towards a pro-ban.
^As much as I can appreciate these sentiments, they hold little to no ground in the realm of our current tiering philosophy. As principle, we believe in minimizing the Uber list while maintaining balance. Pokemon that are kept in the metagame are not retained for what they bring to the metagame. Our tiering philosophy is based on the fundamental premise that more Pokemon/more diversity is better, and that Pokemon should be retained as long as they don't unbalance the metagame.
Even if you personally feel Keldeo adds nothing interesting or fun to the metagame, that holds no water based on our tiering principles.
I'm not saying those principles can't be argued or changed, but I'm just saying how they are.
Even if you personally feel Keldeo adds nothing interesting or fun to the metagame, that holds no water based on our tiering principles.
I'm not saying those principles can't be argued or changed, but I'm just saying how they are.
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I just discovered the "portrait of an uber" thread from a couple years ago, and it has contributed greatly to what I believe is my final conclusion on Keldeo.
One of the specifications discussed (and approved of) was the ability to sweep without putting the pokemon or team at risk. I believe this very much captures keldeo, this particular sentiment even moreso than something like excadrill.
Whether we are talking about scarf/specs/ebelt/etc., keldeo has counters and checks. Let us digress for a moment and look at the counters and checks for something like Terrakion. Ignoring the SD set for purpose of comparison (since it is then a difficult case to compare to keldeo given how less useful a boosting move is on it), common terrakion counters/checks are lando-t and skarm. If one of these pokes comes in (bar hp ice for lando ;) @Spinda), they force terrakion out but in the process they are able to set up hazards or, in the case of lando, either hit the switchin very hard or u-turn. If we were to look at keldeo's common checks now: jellicent, latias, celebi, we would see that while these are hard stops (actually not really, but that's for a different discussion), these pokes are also generally unthreatening and scream set up/pursuit bait. While terrakion's counters are able to inhibit terrak's team with hazards/etc., making it somewhat of a liability to try and sweep with, keldeo's counters do not ascertain pressure, rather they force keldeo out right into a good matchup against said counter with not much harm done, meaning that keldeo has significantly less risk when using it as opposed to other top tier ou mons.
Another concopt that was brought up was the ratio of how much damage it can do to how much it can take. This time we will compare two controversial pokes: keldeo and kyurem-b. Now obviously kyurem has crazy power and bulk, but that isn't all that the sentiment was covering. A major part of it was soft damage. Kyurem is stealth rock weak, spikes weak, priority weak, sandstorm weak, has a rather poor defensive typing (in the grand scheme of things... Yes it gets switchin opprotunities but that doesn't make it any less vulnerable to a later scizor/rakkion/ keldeo/ etc switch ins. If we were to assume common battle conditions, Kyurem would have less than 75% of its health on its first switch in (rocks+possible sand, spikes, damage on switch in, etc). This, combined with the fact that many common moves are doing 2x damage very much so alleviates its great bulk. Keldeo on the other hand is resistant to sr, resistant to the most common priority, is weak to less common types. These traits, namely rocks and priority resistances, enhance keldeo's ability to "take damage" very well.
So it is for these reasons (among others that I dint care to post as I'm typing from an ipod) that I believe keldeo does indeed fit the bill of uber
One of the specifications discussed (and approved of) was the ability to sweep without putting the pokemon or team at risk. I believe this very much captures keldeo, this particular sentiment even moreso than something like excadrill.
Whether we are talking about scarf/specs/ebelt/etc., keldeo has counters and checks. Let us digress for a moment and look at the counters and checks for something like Terrakion. Ignoring the SD set for purpose of comparison (since it is then a difficult case to compare to keldeo given how less useful a boosting move is on it), common terrakion counters/checks are lando-t and skarm. If one of these pokes comes in (bar hp ice for lando ;) @Spinda), they force terrakion out but in the process they are able to set up hazards or, in the case of lando, either hit the switchin very hard or u-turn. If we were to look at keldeo's common checks now: jellicent, latias, celebi, we would see that while these are hard stops (actually not really, but that's for a different discussion), these pokes are also generally unthreatening and scream set up/pursuit bait. While terrakion's counters are able to inhibit terrak's team with hazards/etc., making it somewhat of a liability to try and sweep with, keldeo's counters do not ascertain pressure, rather they force keldeo out right into a good matchup against said counter with not much harm done, meaning that keldeo has significantly less risk when using it as opposed to other top tier ou mons.
Another concopt that was brought up was the ratio of how much damage it can do to how much it can take. This time we will compare two controversial pokes: keldeo and kyurem-b. Now obviously kyurem has crazy power and bulk, but that isn't all that the sentiment was covering. A major part of it was soft damage. Kyurem is stealth rock weak, spikes weak, priority weak, sandstorm weak, has a rather poor defensive typing (in the grand scheme of things... Yes it gets switchin opprotunities but that doesn't make it any less vulnerable to a later scizor/rakkion/ keldeo/ etc switch ins. If we were to assume common battle conditions, Kyurem would have less than 75% of its health on its first switch in (rocks+possible sand, spikes, damage on switch in, etc). This, combined with the fact that many common moves are doing 2x damage very much so alleviates its great bulk. Keldeo on the other hand is resistant to sr, resistant to the most common priority, is weak to less common types. These traits, namely rocks and priority resistances, enhance keldeo's ability to "take damage" very well.
So it is for these reasons (among others that I dint care to post as I'm typing from an ipod) that I believe keldeo does indeed fit the bill of uber
Mike, I hate to say it but I don't think you have a legitimate point here.
How are those pokes not threatening?
You HAVE to have a Tyranitar (and no other check) for Latias to be unthreatening. Latios or Starmie being threatening to EVERYTHING.
Celebis' T-Wave can dismantle most offensive (and even defensive) Pokemon, while its Nasty Plot/Baton Pass set can screw whole teams UNLESS you have Scizor, AND it doesn't have HP Fire. Heck, even if you HAVE a Scizor, if Celebi predicts you and passes as you switch, you could be given a major threat a chance to set up on Scizor (or whatever your Celebi switch-in is) anyway.
Jellicent may be a less threatening Pokemon, but Scald, Toxic, and W-o-W are nothing to simply write off.
In fact, I could really turn this around and say that Terrakion is a LOT less Risky to use than Keldeo, because it provides FAR less opportunity for enemies to set up for a sweep. The worst Terrakion's checks can do is Lando-T using Rock Polish/Gravity, or Skarm setting up spikes. I guess Gliscor could try setting up SD/Agility on it, but are we really afraid of that? Almost every set up sweeper fears one of its STABs, which EVERY Terrakion set has.
On the other hand, UNLESS Keldeo HAS the right HP / Icy Wind, and DOES have the liberty to use it (not choice locked), it is a potential set up opportunity for a wide range of dangerous sweepers-- Salamence, Gyarados, Dragonite, B-Pass Celebi, and even just CM Latias. When I have Terrak and Keldeo on my team, and I'm securing a late-game win, I will always try to revenge kill with Terrakion and not Keldeo, just because Keldeo provides far more opportunity for the opponent to potentially set up a boosting sweep and turn the tables around.
I've even had the shoe on the other foot-- I've LET the opponent keep Keldeo (avoided killing it) at times so I could set up a Celebi boost/pass sweep at least a few times. I've never LET a Terrakion kill get away when presented.
"Sweep with bringing little risk to the team" may be an Uber characteristic, but it's not one you can apply to Keldeo, and it's CERTAINLY not one more applicable to Keldeo than Terrakion.
How are those pokes not threatening?
You HAVE to have a Tyranitar (and no other check) for Latias to be unthreatening. Latios or Starmie being threatening to EVERYTHING.
Celebis' T-Wave can dismantle most offensive (and even defensive) Pokemon, while its Nasty Plot/Baton Pass set can screw whole teams UNLESS you have Scizor, AND it doesn't have HP Fire. Heck, even if you HAVE a Scizor, if Celebi predicts you and passes as you switch, you could be given a major threat a chance to set up on Scizor (or whatever your Celebi switch-in is) anyway.
Jellicent may be a less threatening Pokemon, but Scald, Toxic, and W-o-W are nothing to simply write off.
In fact, I could really turn this around and say that Terrakion is a LOT less Risky to use than Keldeo, because it provides FAR less opportunity for enemies to set up for a sweep. The worst Terrakion's checks can do is Lando-T using Rock Polish/Gravity, or Skarm setting up spikes. I guess Gliscor could try setting up SD/Agility on it, but are we really afraid of that? Almost every set up sweeper fears one of its STABs, which EVERY Terrakion set has.
On the other hand, UNLESS Keldeo HAS the right HP / Icy Wind, and DOES have the liberty to use it (not choice locked), it is a potential set up opportunity for a wide range of dangerous sweepers-- Salamence, Gyarados, Dragonite, B-Pass Celebi, and even just CM Latias. When I have Terrak and Keldeo on my team, and I'm securing a late-game win, I will always try to revenge kill with Terrakion and not Keldeo, just because Keldeo provides far more opportunity for the opponent to potentially set up a boosting sweep and turn the tables around.
I've even had the shoe on the other foot-- I've LET the opponent keep Keldeo (avoided killing it) at times so I could set up a Celebi boost/pass sweep at least a few times. I've never LET a Terrakion kill get away when presented.
"Sweep with bringing little risk to the team" may be an Uber characteristic, but it's not one you can apply to Keldeo, and it's CERTAINLY not one more applicable to Keldeo than Terrakion.
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While keldeo's counters are indeed good pokemon, that doesn't neccesarily make keldeo riskier to use.
The biggest liability when using it is latios being able to dmeteor (though jirachi, ferro, ttar, scizor, icy wind are all possible answers to this). Starmie can be dealt with similarly (in fact, doesn't starmie take a total shit ton from hpump? (Unless it's bulky, in which case what does it really threaten?))
Yes, celebi CAN nasty plot (though I don't see why an obvious switch to a celebi counter wouldn't solve this) or it can swords dance or do whatever it has in its repetoire, but this is flawed in a) the likelihood and b) the impact. If celebi isn't running max spdef, it isn't exactly a reliable way to deal with keldeo. If it is, it isn't difficult to outspeed and ko with the switch in.
If we are just talking about ebelt/specs, those pokes don't have all that much opprotunity (even against scarf... Keldeo still outspeeds after a boost (or 2 for gyara) and can ko before they can set up if they are switching in, especially after rocks or in rain) considering they are outsped and 2/1hkod.
This is opposed to skarm getting up hazards, applying a large amount of pressure and reducing the entire team's defensive capabilities.
And the same can be said for terrakion, but to a greater extent. Rain boosted hpump does much more to the likes of mence/dnite/etc than close combat, meaning that especially considering the ubiquity of choiced terrakions, it is even moreso setup bait.
The risk obviously differs with the set, scarf being the worst offenser. But in that case, keldeo isn't being used as a wallbreaker, it is a revenge killer/lategame sweeper and so it shouldn't be used until that risk brought on by lower damage output is neccesary or alleviated.
The biggest liability when using it is latios being able to dmeteor (though jirachi, ferro, ttar, scizor, icy wind are all possible answers to this). Starmie can be dealt with similarly (in fact, doesn't starmie take a total shit ton from hpump? (Unless it's bulky, in which case what does it really threaten?))
Yes, celebi CAN nasty plot (though I don't see why an obvious switch to a celebi counter wouldn't solve this) or it can swords dance or do whatever it has in its repetoire, but this is flawed in a) the likelihood and b) the impact. If celebi isn't running max spdef, it isn't exactly a reliable way to deal with keldeo. If it is, it isn't difficult to outspeed and ko with the switch in.
If we are just talking about ebelt/specs, those pokes don't have all that much opprotunity (even against scarf... Keldeo still outspeeds after a boost (or 2 for gyara) and can ko before they can set up if they are switching in, especially after rocks or in rain) considering they are outsped and 2/1hkod.
This is opposed to skarm getting up hazards, applying a large amount of pressure and reducing the entire team's defensive capabilities.
And the same can be said for terrakion, but to a greater extent. Rain boosted hpump does much more to the likes of mence/dnite/etc than close combat, meaning that especially considering the ubiquity of choiced terrakions, it is even moreso setup bait.
The risk obviously differs with the set, scarf being the worst offenser. But in that case, keldeo isn't being used as a wallbreaker, it is a revenge killer/lategame sweeper and so it shouldn't be used until that risk brought on by lower damage output is neccesary or alleviated.
Interesting post MikeDawg, although I do have some issues with it. First off Jellicent isn't really pursuit bait unless you are using a specially defensive version, actually countering Scizor and crippling incoming Tyranitars with Willow-Wisp or Scald, (although yes, this does make it less effective at checking Keldeo), just a nitpick.
Mainly, while yes Keldeo counters do not pose the immediate threat as Landorus-t to Terrakion, I believe the section you are referencing (and please correct me if I am wrong) refers to niche Pokemon being used against the potential Uber. Keldeo counters provide many more functions than just countering Keldeo and many of them are commonly found as the defensive backbone for a team, providing excellent team synergy, filling many other roles. I don't think a Pokemon should be potentially Uber just because it's counters don't make an immediate presence.
While I do have to admit, this characteristic isn't common in OU, there are a few others I have to counter point: Thundurus-T, Gengar, Salamence, Infernape. All of these Pokemon's main counters don't have much of an immediate presence as you described, and many of them can even break through counters with the right moves.
Mainly, while yes Keldeo counters do not pose the immediate threat as Landorus-t to Terrakion, I believe the section you are referencing (and please correct me if I am wrong) refers to niche Pokemon being used against the potential Uber. Keldeo counters provide many more functions than just countering Keldeo and many of them are commonly found as the defensive backbone for a team, providing excellent team synergy, filling many other roles. I don't think a Pokemon should be potentially Uber just because it's counters don't make an immediate presence.
While I do have to admit, this characteristic isn't common in OU, there are a few others I have to counter point: Thundurus-T, Gengar, Salamence, Infernape. All of these Pokemon's main counters don't have much of an immediate presence as you described, and many of them can even break through counters with the right moves.
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Oh, I was referring to setup bait for jelli, not pursuit (lum dnite, etc.) :)
And the inspiring discussion was started by jumpman a few years ago about what makes a pokemon uber, not counterint uber pokes :p one of the points essentially came down to "will sweeping pose a risk to the team?" And while all of keldeos checks are indeed good pokemon and easily put on a team, that doesn't make them less universally threatening (with the exception of the obvious offensive (and much shakier) ones like the latis)
And I don't mean neccesarily an offensive presence. Just the ability to do something like set up hazards (ferro for thundy, lando/skarm for mence), or cripple a great switch in (jirachi for gengar), of even set up (gyara/ whatever for infernape depending on set). It comes down to "how likely is this poke to be a minor liability?"
Edit: Here is the thread for reference
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/portrait-of-an-uber.43566/#post-1607521
All that could be said has already been said. I'll just add this.
From a standard offense-player's standpoint, Landorus-I was easier to trap/revenge than this piece of shit pony. That's all I have to say. It's annoying as an offensive player because unlike Lando this thing resists all the common OU priorities bar mach punch, so scarf version is liberally thrown around to blow holes in anything not names Scarf Latios/SunSaur. not that he doesn't have a respectable bulk either. Water/Fighting is an amazingly good defensive typing. And in the rain it doesn't even have to predict unless you have a jellicent. Just spam Hydro Pump and you're pretty much denting everything.
I don't know if that makes it broken, but sure as hell it deserves a suspect test if Lando did.
From a standard offense-player's standpoint, Landorus-I was easier to trap/revenge than this piece of shit pony. That's all I have to say. It's annoying as an offensive player because unlike Lando this thing resists all the common OU priorities bar mach punch, so scarf version is liberally thrown around to blow holes in anything not names Scarf Latios/SunSaur. not that he doesn't have a respectable bulk either. Water/Fighting is an amazingly good defensive typing. And in the rain it doesn't even have to predict unless you have a jellicent. Just spam Hydro Pump and you're pretty much denting everything.
I don't know if that makes it broken, but sure as hell it deserves a suspect test if Lando did.
Keldeo is really good but I don't think he's worthy of a ban. I have a team where my strategy is to take out Celebi/Jelli/Tenta/Amoongus/Gyara/Latias/Latios, make sure I win the weather war, weaken everything else that resists water to the point that it can be KO'd, and then let my scarf Keldeo loose and spam surf or hydro pump for the win. I played a game just today where I was down 5-2, but everything the other guy had left was sufficiently weakened and my rain was up so I was able to spam surf for the win. It reminds me of RBY Tauros in a way. If you let him out too early, he might barely kill one poke, but if you play it right he can clean up entire teams.
Tauros didn't even have any hard counters, but Keldeo has at least those 7 I named. Granted, it's a little different now because the pony can get around those counters with hidden power, but you only get one hidden power. He doesn't have an answer to everything, and it's possible to outplay the person using Keldeo. Not worthy of a ban imo.
Tauros didn't even have any hard counters, but Keldeo has at least those 7 I named. Granted, it's a little different now because the pony can get around those counters with hidden power, but you only get one hidden power. He doesn't have an answer to everything, and it's possible to outplay the person using Keldeo. Not worthy of a ban imo.
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 144-172 (44.03 - 52.59%) -- 82.81% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I don't think Skarm would dare set up spikes on that, and you already know how I feel about lando.. Unlike Keldeo, Terrakion is way less weather reliant and breaks things in every weather, what are you really gonna do with keld if you lose your weather war vs sun?
We've already established that unless its a scarf terrakion, skarm isn't getting any hazards up on it, and I would reply to lando-t hitting you hard but guess what.. If you could easily switch to a Celebi counter if it nasty plots on your keldeo, I'm sure you could easily switch into a lando-t counter, ofc lando-t could u-turn but do you really wanna risk that when you're taking 35% from stone edges and you have no reliable recovery? ( Celebi could also u-turn, btw. )
Terrakion actually has 2 insanely powerful STAB moves, unlike Keldeo, Secret Sword is pissweak, nobody can deny that..
Terrakion has 2 better boosting moves in SD And RP, has an ability which is actually useful for it, doesn't need weather nor trappers because it's ridiculously easy for it to break his common counters on its own, all in all, it's fair to say I'm more threatened by terrakion when I see him in team preview than I'll ever be by Keldeo, and this is by someone who runs scizor on practically every team.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
And honestly, I feel like it relies on weather and/or trap support way too much to fill that quota. I like Keldeo, I use it quite often, but in my opinion it's the furthest thing from broken.
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