Lower Tiers The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Demoness]

Froslass, the premier spiker of UU, is being suspected. That's just to show how prevalent spikes are in UU.

Uh, I already knew this. I play the same damn tier, and I acknowledged that Spikes were a major factor.

L

late-game, holes can still be punched...like I don't know, KOing pokes.

Raikou can also punch holes lategame because by then, I think i can reasonabley assume that things have been weakened enough that the extra power is not needed to attain KOs. I also think that "punching holes" is something more reserved for mid-mage, but I digress.

You guys are looking at Zapdos in terms of only its offensively capabilities.

What? I will gladly acknowledge that Zapdos runs quite good defensive sets, and is a major pro over Raikou. I don't think anyone was trying to delibertley do this

The special walls of UU are Umbreon and Snorlax...both of which can usually beat both Zapdos and Raikou 1v1. It is a disadvantage to both Zap and Raik.

Raikou can run only a few: Choiced Scarf/Specs, Expert Belt, and SubCM.

This is true, but Raikou is still a very top-tier threat despite only running a few different sets. Being able to only run a few sets is not as bad as your tone makes it seem if the Pokemon uses those sets very well.

How is Zapdos not as versatile as Raikou?

Where have I said this anywhere in my previous post? stop trying to put words into my mouth -_-

 

[Aecor]

Sir, my intention was not to put words into your mouth. What you're basically trying to say by disproving my post is Raikou is better offensively compared to Zapdos. Raikou cannot late game (where faster frailer threats are KO'd, etc) "sweep" because it lacks immediate power, something Zapdos can boast. I'm trying to say Zapdos has much more utility than Raikou, therefore, it should be S-ranked because Raikou is basically only good as an offensive sweeper. I'm done with the Zapdos/Raikou argument. I believe it should be S-ranked. If anyone comes up with a better counter-argument, I'll change it to A.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Never said mew was bad lol, Its an amazing pokemon. Its just that raikou, Victini, Zapdos and stuff are stronger right off the bat without ANY setup time. Thats why they are S ranked.

Actually, Raikou doesn't hit THAT hard w/o any boosts(Choice Specs in my eyes does count as a boost), and by the time you've got enough set up power from CM, Mew isn't out of the question as it would have gotten to the power faster with NP.

Also to compare Raikou, Zapdos and Victini to Mew makes 0 sense as they do different things. At this point I'm seeing a lack of effort in your argument, come on at least compare mew to something that makes sense.

ALSO All of those pokemon are S for running 2+ deadly sets that can be very effective in this metagame due to their balance of power and at least decent bulk and for more reasons that vary on the pokemon. (ALso PS All those pokemon also have worse coverage compared to Mew)

Not to mention support Mew is one of the best supporters in this tier with the wide range of things it can run (SR, Will-O, Thunder Wave, Trick Room (I do not know why you would use this, but I would like to not forget the option of running it) etc. Mews support viabillity is undeniable, ESPECIALLY with it's simply great and balanced Stat Spread, which none of the S mons EXCEPT victini have anything nearly as balanced.(Zapdos is close though)

 

[Iminyourcloset]

So there's this debate-type-thing going on with Raikou and Zapdos, and I'm just putting in my two cents here. No hate to anyone. Peas on Earth <3

In my personal experience, while Raikou has an "oh shit I could get swept" factor about it, a lot of the time that's my over-exaggeration. Zapdos doesn't have that same dreadful feeling, but it's versatility is what makes it dangerous. "Should I send in my Heracross and Stone Edge? or will it just tank the hit and Discharge? What about its Hidden Power? Or Special Defense vs. Physical Defense? Could it be a rare scarf variant?"

Now, while Raikou can run various Hidden Powers as well, it has to be careful not to lose coverage. Unlike Zapdos, it has no reliable recovery, nor does it really have the bulk Zapdos can abuse. And it also doesn't have the nice immunity to 2/3 of hazards known to Pokemon.
When facing Raikou, the options are really "SubCM? or Choice?" both of which don't offer much difference, hence similar answers to each of the sets. there is that Hidden Power scare, I admit, but it's either Grass or Ice. Zapdos, however runs a third at least: Grass, Ice, or Flying. while this may seem small, that's the difference between your Roserade taking little to no damage, a lot yet managable damage, and getting KOed. (secondary STAB, something Raikou could only dream of)

While Raikou is a sweeping machine, and Zapdos arguably isn't as good in that area (I would say that Raikou is just a smidge better cuz speed, but Zapdos has Flying-type, so meh), the fact that Zapdos can do what Raikou does AND be able to run defensive sets is what makes it, in my eyes, S-rank and what makes Raikou, unfortunately, A-rank (although high A-rank)
So...um...yeah..o_o

Oh and I forgot to talk about Mew. He's wonderful. being able to make nearly any set possible is an amazing feature. Yet, the thing is, Mew's stats are great, but they're so rounded. This is good, but for being a sweeper, there are faster and stronger options. For being a supporter, there are 'mons with better typing (Psychic isn't too good defensively) and better defensive stats (Azelf and Cresselia are both pure psychic, one being an offensive powerhouse, the other a defensive one. These are the two mons that come to mind). What makes Mew Mew is the ability to have just about any move in existence and the ability to abuse both its good bulk and good offenses. Mew should be A-rank as opposed to S-rank in my opinion since:
-Good stats, but it's a Jack of all trades, master of none, unfortunately. 100 just isn't what it used to be.
-While it's Pure offensive sets are good, it's Typing of Psychic can bring it down some, being Pursuit weak and being weak to notably common Dark and Ghost moves, as well as bug moves from the likes of Heracross and Yanmega, who can outspeed it (Scarf and Speed Boost, respectively)
-Being Susceptible to all 3 hazards is never a fun thing, and its ability is meh at best. (although admittedly, this doesn't stop Raikou, but I'm arguing him to stay in A-rank anyway)

I love mew, but he belongs in A-Rank.

 

[Aecor]

Iminyourcloset, I agree with you 100%. It's the versatility that adds the fear of facing a Zapdos. Also, slight nitpick: Raikou can be Expert Belt :X

 

[PTJon7]

Yea that was a convincing argument Closet, I can see now why Zapdos is S-Rank.

I really really do think Chandelure is A-Rank though. My reasoning:

Hide

I also think Chandelure should drop down to A-Rank as well. Its really not that tough of an opponent to face, its slow and has a typing that makes it easy to revenge kill thanks to weaknesses to Ground, Rock, Dark, and Water. Sure it may be tough to switch into thanks to it's massive SAtk stat but Chandelure is almost a guaranteed free kill if your team has a Snorlax on it. 84% of Chandelures still run Flash Fire as well, making Trace P2 another excellent counter to it. I just think that Chandelure is too easy to shut down against most players for it to be considered S-Rank.

 

[Aecor]

Chandy for A.

 

[Monte Cristo]

"Oh and I forgot to talk about Mew. He's wonderful. being able to make nearly any set possible is an amazing feature. Yet, the thing is, Mew's stats are great, but they're so rounded. This is good, but for being a sweeper, there are faster and stronger options. For being a supporter, there are 'mons with better typing (Psychic isn't too good defensively) and better defensive stats (Azelf and Cresselia are both pure psychic, one being an offensive powerhouse, the other a defensive one. These are the two mons that come to mind). What makes Mew Mew is the ability to have just about any move in existence and the ability to abuse both its good bulk and good offenses. Mew should be A-rank as opposed to S-rank in my opinion since:
-Good stats, but it's a Jack of all trades, master of none, unfortunately. 100 just isn't what it used to be.
-While it's Pure offensive sets are good, it's Typing of Psychic can bring it down some, being Pursuit weak and being weak to notably common Dark and Ghost moves, as well as bug moves from the likes of Heracross and Yanmega, who can outspeed it (Scarf and Speed Boost, respectively)
-Being Susceptible to all 3 hazards is never a fun thing, and its ability is meh at best. (although admittedly, this doesn't stop Raikou, but I'm arguing him to stay in A-rank anyway)"

Alright, Time to argue lol, Comparing Azelf, Mew and Cress, is like comparing Darmanitan and Chandalure, they may share a type, but they all do different things (Cress is a extremely bulky support 'mon but unfortunatly can't do anything back to the likes of houndoom (while mew can superpower, explosion(if support) or aura sphere) and most of the other pursuit trappers, while Mew can actually hit back for decent damage or even good damage even on the support set, and Azelf is mainly a glass cannon that dies to most Pokemon in UU,kind of a balance VS power situation if you ask me, at the same time Mew doesn't get walled by as much things as azelf because it can do so much more as an attacker, plus it can set up in front of things isntead of having to force something out to NP on it)

Also about the "jack of all trades, but master of none" I feel like this is a REALLY big misconception, as it is the best NP-er in the tier and one of the best set up sweepers in the tier as well (Comparing it to the other UU special attackers is really a weak argument to me, as hitting weaker off the bat can be compensating by it's devistating combination of bulk, and power with NP), when you talk about hitting right off the bat, it doesn't NEED to hit right off the bat, as Mew can set up on a plethora of things like Snorlax unlike a lot of UU set up sweepers, especially a threat to stall as it can set up on the usual memebers of a stall team and wreck with +2 or even +4 boosted hits with just 2 turns of set up, and still have a decent amount of health left, some pokes like Raikou have much more trouble with this unlike Mew.

It also is one of the best Pokemon in all of it's roles, yes Cresselia is a better supporter defensivly, but due to Mew's balanced stats, it does better against set up sweepers, stall times and the like. And also can hit shit back for decent damage with Psyshock, explosion etc. as it can still pack a punch for a support pokemon.

Also it has a GREAT base 100 speed for a tier filled with 95 speed or lower 'mons which is another reason on why it is so good.

 

[Moose V]

"Oh and I forgot to talk about Mew. He's wonderful. being able to make nearly any set possible is an amazing feature. Yet, the thing is, Mew's stats are great, but they're so rounded. This is good, but for being a sweeper, there are faster and stronger options. For being a supporter, there are 'mons with better typing (Psychic isn't too good defensively) and better defensive stats (Azelf and Cresselia are both pure psychic, one being an offensive powerhouse, the other a defensive one. These are the two mons that come to mind). What makes Mew Mew is the ability to have just about any move in existence and the ability to abuse both its good bulk and good offenses. Mew should be A-rank as opposed to S-rank in my opinion since:
-Good stats, but it's a Jack of all trades, master of none, unfortunately. 100 just isn't what it used to be.
-While it's Pure offensive sets are good, it's Typing of Psychic can bring it down some, being Pursuit weak and being weak to notably common Dark and Ghost moves, as well as bug moves from the likes of Heracross and Yanmega, who can outspeed it (Scarf and Speed Boost, respectively)
-Being Susceptible to all 3 hazards is never a fun thing, and its ability is meh at best. (although admittedly, this doesn't stop Raikou, but I'm arguing him to stay in A-rank anyway)"

Alright, Time to argue lol, Comparing Azelf, Mew and Cress, is like comparing Darmanitan and Chandalure, they may share a type, but they all do different things (Cress is a extremely bulky support 'mon but unfortunatly can't do anything back to the likes of houndoom (while mew can superpower, explosion(if support) or aura sphere) and most of the other pursuit trappers, while Mew can actually hit back for decent damage or even good damage even on the support set, and Azelf is mainly a glass cannon that dies to most Pokemon in UU,kind of a balance VS power situation if you ask me, at the same time Mew doesn't get walled by as much things as azelf because it can do so much more as an attacker, plus it can set up in front of things isntead of having to force something out to NP on it)

Also about the "jack of all trades, but master of none" I feel like this is a REALLY big misconception, as it is the best NP-er in the tier and one of the best set up sweepers in the tier as well (Comparing it to the other UU special attackers is really a weak argument to me, as hitting weaker off the bat can be compensating by it's devistating combination of bulk, and power with NP), when you talk about hitting right off the bat, it doesn't NEED to hit right off the bat, as Mew can set up on a plethora of things like Snorlax unlike a lot of UU set up sweepers, especially a threat to stall as it can set up on the usual memebers of a stall team and wreck with +2 or even +4 boosted hits with just 2 turns of set up, and still have a decent amount of health left, some pokes like Raikou have much more trouble with this unlike Mew.

It also is one of the best Pokemon in all of it's roles, yes Cresselia is a better supporter defensivly, but due to Mew's balanced stats, it does better against set up sweepers, stall times and the like. And also can hit shit back for decent damage with Psyshock, explosion etc. as it can still pack a punch for a support pokemon.

Also it has a GREAT base 100 speed for a tier filled with 95 speed or lower 'mons which is another reason on why it is so good.

Might I add that the stallbreaker specially defensive set detroys worlds if it has support to handle yanmega/chandy. I'd argue that, with will-o, good recovery, taunt and quite respectable bulk, mew is potentially the best stall breaker in the tier.

 

[Chronic Smash]

Claydol and Dusclops should move down to the E rank,Claydol is totally outclassed by Blastoise as a Spinner and by Xatu as a screener,heck its also complete set up fodder against the likes of Suicune and Scrafty.Most of the times is death fodder.As i said Claydol is complete garbage at least in my opinion,if you want a spinner go for Blastoise.Ipersonally think that and that it should go back to RU.

Dusclops isnt any better.If you want a good spinblocking pokemon go for Cofagrigus which has better stats and movepool,takes hits a lot better and has at least decent offensive presence.Like Claydol Dusclops is also complete set up fodder and its really a big pile of garbage.Also the fact that he is susceptible to every form of hazard makes its longevity go out of the window.Like with Claydol it should drop to E rank and to RU in general

Bisharp,I kinda dont like that its C tier I personally think it should raise to B rank at least because it can run a very solid SubSD set with Sucker Punch and can sweep unprepared teams which is fantastic.

Also I wanna point out that Suicune should raise to A rank because it just Never Dies!,if suicune gets a Calm Mind or 2 of,your probably screwed.Since all damage you do to it is useless cause' suicune can just rest up.And your work of weakening it was worthless.

Qwilfish should move down to D tier.Qwilfish is completely outclassed by Roserade in every single role it performs,plus Roserade has natural cure which makes it the perfect status absorber,while qwilfish really hates bein statused.

Ambipom is awful,it only has one nitch.Fake Out+U-Turn,the thing is only useful as a lead and its totally outclassed by mienshao as a lead.In the end Ambipom is basically death fodder,cuz the thing is soo frail.It cant switch in on any attack and its totally outclassed,Ambipom should definitely Drop to E rank and to RU imo.Mienshao does the same as Ambipom but much better and has regenerator.

Riolu should never,ever be used in UU.It is a complete gimmick,you basically need a lot of hazard support,a safe switch in.Riolu cant take hits and it can just be revenge killed by Mienshao or any priority users.

 

[The Leprechaun]

Qwilfish should move down to D tier.Qwilfish is completely outclassed by Roserade in every single role it performs,plus Roserade has natural cure which makes it the perfect status absorber,while qwilfish really hates bein statused.
.

I could not disagree with you more here. While roserade maybe a specially defensive goddess, it can't handle any physical attacks from almost anyone. Qwilfish however is as defensive as it gets with good defensive stats as well as intimidate. Also, fish's typing is incredible in UU. Two of the main attacking types in the tier are fighting and fire, both of which are resisted by fish. Yes, roserade may also resist fighting but she can't take multiple hi jump kicks or close combats. She just doesn't have the physical bulk. On top of this, fish has access to some great support moves such as thunder wave and taunt, and with his decent speed stat, he's able to utilise these moves well to stall break. For these reasons, I'd like to nominate Qwilfish for B

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

D-Rank is just fine for Ambipom, Claydol, and the likes. E-Rank doesn't need to exist because you could logically put half of the RU and NU tiers in there with no point; simply putting a Pokemon in the D-Rank is already implying that they're bad.

Riiolu is fine in the D-Rank as well; since it's actually a viable gimmick, obviously it needs a lot of support to do well, but it's still capable of accomplishing something in UU.

Also Qwilfish is actually really good in UU, and is definitely B-Rank; it's not comparable to Roserade in the slightest aside from being able to spike. They check different threats and handle a different side of the spectrum, while Qwilfish has an incredible support movepool to work with. It's just fine in B-Rank.

 

[The Leprechaun]

Also Qwilfish is actually really good in UU, and is definitely B-Rank; it's not comparable to Roserade in the slightest aside from being able to spike. They check different threats and handle a different side of the spectrum, while Qwilfish has an incredible support movepool to work with. It's just fine in B-Rank.

Oh lol, from the post before mine i though qwilfish was c-rank. Whoops.

 

[Aecor]

Xen, you kind of need more of an argument...you can't just come in here guns a blazing--especially with bad grammar. Care to elaborate?

 

[Moose V]

Claydol and Dusclops should move down to the E rank,Claydol is totally outclassed by Blastoise as a Spinner and by Xatu as a screener,heck its also complete set up fodder against the likes of Suicune and Scrafty.Most of the times is death fodder.As i said Claydol is complete garbage at least in my opinion,if you want a spinner go for Blastoise.Ipersonally think that and that it should go back to RU.

Dusclops isnt any better.If you want a good spinblocking pokemon go for Cofagrigus which has better stats and movepool,takes hits a lot better and has at least decent offensive presence.Like Claydol Dusclops is also complete set up fodder and its really a big pile of garbage.Also the fact that he is susceptible to every form of hazard makes its longevity go out of the window.Like with Claydol it should drop to E rank and to RU in general

Bisharp,I kinda dont like that its C tier I personally think it should raise to B rank at least because it can run a very solid SubSD set with Sucker Punch and can sweep unprepared teams which is fantastic.

Also I wanna point out that Suicune should raise to A rank because it just Never Dies!,if suicune gets a Calm Mind or 2 of,your probably screwed.Since all damage you do to it is useless cause' suicune can just rest up.And your work of weakening it was worthless.

Qwilfish should move down to D tier.Qwilfish is completely outclassed by Roserade in every single role it performs,plus Roserade has natural cure which makes it the perfect status absorber,while qwilfish really hates bein statused.

Ambipom is awful,it only has one nitch.Fake Out+U-Turn,the thing is only useful as a lead and its totally outclassed by mienshao as a lead.In the end Ambipom is basically death fodder,cuz the thing is soo frail.It cant switch in on any attack and its totally outclassed,Ambipom should definitely Drop to E rank and to RU imo.Mienshao does the same as Ambipom but much better and has regenerator.

Riolu should never,ever be used in UU.It is a complete gimmick,you basically need a lot of hazard support,a safe switch in.Riolu cant take hits and it can just be revenge killed by Mienshao or any priority users.

So...you want to move everything in D rank to a currently nonexistent E rank for no reason at all? Now, I could be wrong, but I believe that may just make absolutely no sense

 

[CoolStoryBrobat]

Claydol and Dusclops should move down to the E rank,Claydol is totally outclassed by Blastoise as a Spinner and by Xatu as a screener,heck its also complete set up fodder against the likes of Suicune and Scrafty.Most of the times is death fodder.As i said Claydol is complete garbage at least in my opinion,if you want a spinner go for Blastoise.Ipersonally think that and that it should go back to RU.

Hatewagoning I see...We recently removed the E-Rank and just bumped the bottom of the barrel to be D-Rank. While I won't necessarily say "Lol these Pokemon suck don't ever use them" I will say that your reasoning is mostly facilitated by your opinion...And an extremely common general opinion that really isn't changing much of what the thread already contains.

Dusclops isnt any better.If you want a good spinblocking pokemon go for Cofagrigus which has better stats and movepool,takes hits a lot better and has at least decent offensive presence.Like Claydol Dusclops is also complete set up fodder and its really a big pile of garbage.Also the fact that he is susceptible to every form of hazard makes its longevity go out of the window.Like with Claydol it should drop to E rank and to RU in general

Once again same as what I said above...However Dusclops can be an incredibly annoying Pokemon to take down in the long run. Ever fight against the RestTalk set? Suddenly hazard damage means nothing. Or against the rare Curse Split Dusclops? Have fun staying in on it. The pressure (no pun intended) Dusclops lacks it makes up for a bit in its ability to just sit in your face. While I do agree it is setup fodder...Try not to fuel your opinion so hard that you overrun your actual reasoning.

Bisharp,I kinda dont like that its C tier I personally think it should raise to B rank at least because it can run a very solid SubSD set with Sucker Punch and can sweep unprepared teams which is fantastic.

A lot of Pokemon have the potential to sweep UNPREPARED teams...given the fact they're unprepared to deal with them. Bisharp is pretty deadly but there's only so much stuff you're going to likely setup on. Not only that but it's got a lot of competition from the likes of Honchkrow who has a bit more flexibility with its movesets as an offensive Dark-Type, who also can freely use Pursuit on its sets. Bisharp's uncanny weaknesses don't exactly help it either, though it is still deadly in its own right. I kinda feel it's worthy of a C-Ranking due to the support it needs before it can just facilitate a sweep.

Qwilfish should move down to D tier.Qwilfish is completely outclassed by Roserade in every single role it performs,plus Roserade has natural cure which makes it the perfect status absorber,while qwilfish really hates bein statused.

Lol, when's the last time you switched Roserade into a Darmanitan's Flare Blitz? Or a Mienshao's Hi-Jump Kick? Or a Crobat's Brave Bird? Roserade and Qwilfish are both poison-type Spikers, but they play entirely differently. Roserade's got the potential to go as an offensive Pokemon with Sleep Powder and Leaf Storm, aside from being a SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE Pokemon who lays hazards. Qwilfish is a PHYSICALLY DEFENSIVE Pokemon with Intimidate which offers a lot of opportunities to freely switch in and setup, and even cripple things with Thunder Wave or Haze to remove boosts from things like Scrafty attempting to set up. Roserade can't boast any of those qualities and Qwilfish doesn't exactly play the same as Roserade...you're comparing apples and oranges bruh. And if you're using Qwilfish to absorb status, you ain't doing it right...

Ambipom is awful,it only has one nitch.Fake Out+U-Turn,the thing is only useful as a lead and its totally outclassed by mienshao as a lead.In the end Ambipom is basically death fodder,cuz the thing is soo frail.It cant switch in on any attack and its totally outclassed,Ambipom should definitely Drop to E rank and to RU imo.Mienshao does the same as Ambipom but much better and has regenerator.

Same thing I said in response to the first paragraph...

Riolu should never,ever be used in UU.It is a complete gimmick,you basically need a lot of hazard support,a safe switch in.Riolu cant take hits and it can just be revenge killed by Mienshao or any priority users.

Riolu is pretty gimmicky, cheap, annoying, etc. And players who are prepared for it can beat it down. But what you kind of don't notice is that you can't exactly "revenge kill" Riolu if it's already commenced into the Roar Spam. Unless your Mienshao is carrying Fake Out, then it's gonna just continuously run train and spamming Copycat. Riolu actually can take a decent hit or two with access to Eviolite, and provided you get surprised when it's not dead, you're going to have the time of your life.

 

[Iminyourcloset]

To Respond to my responses (not in an argue-y way but more of "I saw that"):
@OiawesomeDG: Mew is good/great/whatever. Like what I said, I love it. But S-Rank v. A-Rank, I just think Mew is A-Rank for reasons I stated. I get what you mean in comparing pokemon; I was just comparing two basic 'mons easy to relate to Mew--I wasn't going to go all out and say that they're better in every situation ever, but that Mew is at a disadvantage (at times at least) with its unspecified stats. But, etcetc we disagree, that we can agree on. (<:3)
@I080I: Stallbreaker set I haven't tried personally- only heard about it. I might have to sometime soon...hm.

Anyway, E-rank no longer exists because while some quite a few lower tier things are usable/viable in UU, listing all of them would be tedious, and/or they are too much specified on a certain niche or gimmicky.

Claydol/Dusclops/Riolu/etc are fine in D-Rank, because:
A) E-Rank no longer exists, blahblahblah
But even if there was--

B) Claydol, while not very good in typing, has Levitate which makes him immune to (T)spikes. And he also resists Stealth Rock, which is kinda nice for a spinner. Plus, he can also set up SR, something no other UU spinner can boast (best one is Kabutops, which doesn't run SR usually iirc). While I wouldn't want to have to put it on my team, it does have that slight niche, enough for it to not be dead weight.
C) Dusclops is somewhat annoying. Especially if it's someone skilled using him. he's got bulk, and ghost typing isn't too shabby defensively. although it's still D.
D)Riolu is a gimmick and little more. However, the fact that if you don't have a priority move on your team, or the 'mon that does is dead, (let's say it's your arcanine but it's at 30% HP; good luck taking an SR+Spikes.) you're screwed.
E) Ambipom is still annoying. If it isn't dead the first turn (which is surprisingly possible) it'll come in later and it could end your sweep, partially break through your wall or even sweep itself. Fake Out is annoying, and it is bait to get a steel or ghost type in, however it still causes a flinch. And due to Togekiss we all know how bad flinches can be.

On another note, I just saw that Cryogonal is D-rank as well...Can someone please explain to me? I haven't used him before, but he seems like he would be good on at least hail teams. (correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't hail-based 'mons supposed to be 'graded' based on being in hail?) Or possibly even offensive teams. I know his defense is shit, but I would think you could play around it....??????

Anyway, I'm going to agree that Chandy be A-rank- Very strong, but speed is negligible even with scarf; it's common weaknesses make it unsuitable for S-rank in my personal opinion...Although it is a tough choice. Being walled by Snorlax is never a fun thing. Even Specs will have a hard time, forced to be locked into HP fighting. Yet, I admit- Snorlax isn't literally on every team. However, Chandelure is usually pressured against any bulky water that's not weak to ghost, or anything faster than it with a super effective move, which most teams should carry one, the other, or both. Personally, it's A-rank. However, it is a close call :/.

 

[Aecor]

Mew should be A-ranked. Although Mew can run a variety of sets, it is generally difficult to find a set that Mew outperforms other Pokes. For example, Mew can run a Swords Dance set with either Life Orb or Lum; however, in that case, you should use a plethora of other Swords Dancers, namely Virizon, Cobalion, Weavile, Bisharp, etc. They boast better STABs, better typing, and higher speed (in the former 3, the latter has access to STAB Sucker Punch). Mew can run a Nasty Plot set which is great, but the greatest special sweeper is Raikou. Sure, it has bulk, so it can technically run a better NP set than Azelf, but one has to keep in mind that bulky should not be accounted for unless: a.) You're running a speed boosting set or b.) You are using a recovery move. The best comparison I can come up with is Agility Zapdos. Not only are you allowed to invest in HP to get an Agility, it has Roost which allows it to recover off LO damage. Mew can run a NP set, but it will want to be able to use: Nasty Plot, Softboiled, Psyshock, Aura Sphere, (filler move such as Fire Blast, Dark Pulse, or Shadow Ball). If you opt to go for a bulky sweeper of Nasty Plot, Softboiled, Psyshock and Aura Sphere, you're walled by Sableye. Azelf can run a better Offensive NP set due to the movepool (Used to hit what is popular in the UU Meta) and is faster + stronger. Perhaps Mew's best sets are the stall-breaking specially defensive sets. It can wall a lot of the UU meta (With proper support), needing only 1 or 2 support Pokes. Mew for A.

 

[noknuckles]

Is there a Baton Passer that's better than Mew? I always found Mew dangerous because it's an excellent Baton Passer that can also threaten to sweep. When Weavile sets up SD, I kknow what it's going to do. When Mew sets one up, I can never be sure.

It's also in the running for the best Stealth Rocker. It can run Toxic, WoW, TWave, whatever you need. It's got recovery. It can even go offensive, covering up whatever weaknesses your team has. It can SR AND Baton Pass. It can do so much as a supporter that there's no single Stealth Rocker that outclasses Mew. Rhyperior is nice, but Mew can do things Rhyperior can't

I think Mew fits in well with the other A-ranks. But I don't think it gets outclassed by anything as it can do unique things that no other SD/NP/Support/Baton Passer can do. I don't believe in the "Mew's stats are so well rounded it can't excel at any one thing" mentality. It has enough defensively to be difficult to take down if you EV it to be bulky. It doesn't have excellent attacking stats or typing, but its ability to deal SE damage on ANYTHING and possibly BP out into a more potent sweeper makes up for it

 

[KM]

Claydol and Dusclops should move down to the E rank,Claydol is totally outclassed by Blastoise as a Spinner and by Xatu as a screener,heck its also complete set up fodder against the likes of Suicune and Scrafty.Most of the times is death fodder.As i said Claydol is complete garbage at least in my opinion,if you want a spinner go for Blastoise.Ipersonally think that and that it should go back to RU.

Dusclops isnt any better.If you want a good spinblocking pokemon go for Cofagrigus which has better stats and movepool,takes hits a lot better and has at least decent offensive presence.Like Claydol Dusclops is also complete set up fodder and its really a big pile of garbage.Also the fact that he is susceptible to every form of hazard makes its longevity go out of the window.Like with Claydol it should drop to E rank and to RU in general

Bisharp,I kinda dont like that its C tier I personally think it should raise to B rank at least because it can run a very solid SubSD set with Sucker Punch and can sweep unprepared teams which is fantastic.

Also I wanna point out that Suicune should raise to A rank because it just Never Dies!,if suicune gets a Calm Mind or 2 of,your probably screwed.Since all damage you do to it is useless cause' suicune can just rest up.And your work of weakening it was worthless.

Qwilfish should move down to D tier.Qwilfish is completely outclassed by Roserade in every single role it performs,plus Roserade has natural cure which makes it the perfect status absorber,while qwilfish really hates bein statused.

Ambipom is awful,it only has one nitch.Fake Out+U-Turn,the thing is only useful as a lead and its totally outclassed by mienshao as a lead.In the end Ambipom is basically death fodder,cuz the thing is soo frail.It cant switch in on any attack and its totally outclassed,Ambipom should definitely Drop to E rank and to RU imo.Mienshao does the same as Ambipom but much better and has regenerator.

Riolu should never,ever be used in UU.It is a complete gimmick,you basically need a lot of hazard support,a safe switch in.Riolu cant take hits and it can just be revenge killed by Mienshao or any priority users.

You've already been responded to a ton so I'm just going to pick out a few things.

Everything with E Rank in it is obviously irrelevant, especially when you say "Drop to E rank and to RU", because this thread has absolutely no power over what stays in what tier, that's completely usage based.

Your "arguments" for Suicune and Bisharp rising aren't really anything I can respond to because there really isn't any substance to your arguments, but both of those points have been made previously in this thread so I suggest you look at the corresponding posts.

Concerning qwilfish though....

Qwilfish isn't outclassed by Roserade whatsoever. They fill completely different roles, imo. Roserade is mildly specially defensive (with very mediocre SpD typing, I might add, weaknesses to Ice, Psychic, Flying and Fire aren't doing it any favours), whereas Qwilfish is a defensive monster with amazing defensive typing giving him resistances to Fighting and Fire. His two weaknesses can easily be covered by a single poke (Umbreon is a great partner), and unlike Roserade he isn't forced to choose certain utility moves to compensate for incompatibility. Although he doesn't get sleep powder, he gets a host of other useful utility moves like Thunder Wave, Pain Split, Destiny Bond, Haze, and Taunt, which Roserade can only dream of having. And yes, he doesn't get natural cure (although it really isn't crippled by status too much, sleep and freeze are sort of universal, burn is whatever, and t-wave is annoying at best), but he instead gets intimidate, which is one of the best defensive abilities there is. Roserade is obviously pretty great too, but it definitely doesn't "outclass" Qwilfish.

 

[KM]

Yea that was a convincing argument Closet, I can see now why Zapdos is S-Rank.

I really really do think Chandelure is A-Rank though. My reasoning:

Hide

I also think Chandelure should drop down to A-Rank as well. Its really not that tough of an opponent to face, its slow and has a typing that makes it easy to revenge kill thanks to weaknesses to Ground, Rock, Dark, and Water. Sure it may be tough to switch into thanks to it's massive SAtk stat but Chandelure is almost a guaranteed free kill if your team has a Snorlax on it. 84% of Chandelures still run Flash Fire as well, making Trace P2 another excellent counter to it. I just think that Chandelure is too easy to shut down against most players for it to be considered S-Rank.

I don't personally think that Chandelure is top S ranked, but I don't think it's deserving of a drop into A as well. What you said about most people running Flash Fire is true, but in the context of viability ranking it's sort of irrelevant. In my opinion, Flame Body is just better at mid/high-level play, and it makes 100% counters not as reliable. P2 will be taking a very hefty chunk from fire blasts, and a smart Chandelure player who stays in on non-banded Snorlax can easily take a base 40 pursuit, and possibly cripple Snorlax with a burn. Trick also screws up both of these counters - even if Snorlax manages to take down Chandy with pursuit and no Flame Body hax occurs, it can be crippled with a scarf and a boosting sweeper can easily be brought in for a free turn.

 

[Mazz]

Ace Emerald and I were dicking around on the ladder with an Electivire team here for a while, and it did surprisingly well. We ran a pure physical life orb set to differentiate itself from the likes of Raikou, Zapdos, and Rotom-H, which is what I believe gives it merit in the UnderUsed tier. After a Speed boost from Motor Drive, Adamant Electivire tops out at 433 Speed, outspeeding neutrally-natured +1 Kingdra. Compile that with the insane coverage bestowed upon it through Wild Charge, Ice Punch, Earthquake, and Cross Chop, many teams fail to beat a +1 Electvire once their Rhyperior or Swampert have fallen. Things like Porygon2, Slowbro, Arcanine, and Gligar all take severe amounts of damage via the corresponding move, making switching in on Electivire very difficult. However, even while Adamant and holding a Life Orb, you don't get nearly as many OHKOs as you'd think possible, as offensive Zapdos for example, was only taking about 85% damage from Ice Punch, meaning that Stealth Rock is a must when using Electivire. It's survivability isn't all that great either, as the Life Orb and Wild Charge recoil tend to add up fairly quickly, meaning Wish support is highly desired by Electivire if you want to keep it around in a match for a while. With the four-ish Intimidate users in the tier running around, Electivire can find itself forced out of a match more often than not, as its usefulness recedes when it has a -1 Attack stat. That said, I'd like to nominate Electivire for C-Rank, as it is a very functional Pokemon that just needs that extra bit of support to be truly threatening. Just imagine pairing this thing up with like a Gothorita, something with Stealth Rock, and a Pokemon to lure Electric-type attacks. The opposition would just crumble.

 

[Gary]

Nominating Piloswine for C-Rank.

I've heard a lot of good things about Piloswine, but I had my doubts, until I used it. It's AMAZING! It's so damn bulky with Eviolite, allowing it to run Max Attack to make it an offensive and defensive threat. It's one of the best counters to CM and Scarf Raikou in the tier, and also Offensive Zapdos, because Heat Wave can only 3HKO Piloswine. It's also an amazing check to every variant of Victini bar the Band set, because V-Create just barely 2HKOs it. It's also one of the best checks to Flygon, because Ice Shard will always KO it. Most importantly, Piloswine is a great overall check to hail teams, especially if you use Stone Edge, because Glaceon fails to even 3HKO it with Blizzard, and Rotom-F can't touch it. It's an outstanding Pokemon for teams that find themselves weak to Electric-types or hail teams, need a user of Stealth Rock, and an all around great offensive tank that threatens a large portion of the offensive and defensive metagame. It still has a LOT of flaws and it's more of a niche Pokemon, but it's a VERY underrated team member that shouldn't be underestimated or overlooked on teams that are incredibly weak to the things listed above. Perfect C-Rank Pokemon IMO.

 

[Psychotic]

Update:

Chandelure down from S ==> A rank
The more offensive this metagame gets, the worse it looks for Chandelure. Snorlax is also becoming a staple on most balanced teams, so I am dropping this down to A.

Walrein up from C ==> B rank, it is a staple of hail stall and is capable of setting up on a ton of choiced attacks and walls in the tier, it is a solid enough choice to be moved up to B.

Electivire is being put into D rank for now, it is a decent offensive option to check electric types in the tier, but is pretty weak outside of that. I will ask for other opinions on this and test it out myself to see if it should move up to C.

Mew has been discussed a lot, but it is definitely staying A rank. It has a ton of different sets, but Mew doesn't have any extremely powerful STAB attacks to make up for it's decent attacking stats. I think it's best set right now is probably the Special Defensive one, and if the metagame shifts to allow this set to shine, I might consider moving it up to S.

I will try to continue updating this thread once a week from now on. Thanks to everyone who posted, there is some great discussion going on.

 

[Double Electric]

Unless I'm missing something, shouldn't Froslass be deleted from the list, since it's banned from UU now?