sorry to ruin the replay but that doesn't prove that keldeo is broken, it shows a poor player getting beaten. Celebi was the MVP of that match by far, it kept latios from demolishing the team, and removed toxicroak as an otherwise HUGE threat via perish song. Also, he could have done the same thing his keldeo did that match with any offensive starmie given the circumstances.
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 12 - Always (I Wanna Be With You) [SEE POST #263]
- Thread starter haunter
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Yes, and offensive teams are built to maintain offensive pressure and yet apparently they can't do it to Keldeo. (At least according to some arguments here).
I never said it couldn't get SR + 1 Spikes (2 is really pushing it and you know it). I had said no player of skill would let it get THREE of them up, and never implied anything else otherwise please don't put words into my mouth.
I felt that Forrey / Skarm + Gar + Keldeo was a poor argument because that's half a team, and quite honestly I don't see how Keldeo is exclusive to being able to abuse SR + 1 Spikes. However, we can agree to disagree. I only implied this in the case of Skarm / Gar / Keldeo as well, as Tyranitar is an obvious exception as well as rain support.
If I'm using Skarm / Gar / Keldeo then I'm pretty handicapped in the teambuilding process (not to mention that Keldeo isn't muscling past Latias or Starmie anymore what with it being CM and all and Lati@s and Starmie threaten those other three. You could bring up more teammates but honestly that just limits me more, etc. Or Scarf Keldeo instead but then it lacks backbone to muscle past it's other checks / counters so I digress I can see that this is a viable way to utilize Keldeo's strength but I don't see how using full teams (or half teams) can be considered viable arguments to ban Keldeo).
I never said Keldeo couldn't be used on these types of teams, only that the fact that we are providing Keldeo with so much support does not convince me it's broken (any Pokemon can do well if a team supports it imo x.x) -- the fact that it can be used on hazard stacking teams isn't exclusive to Keldeo since just about every suspect Pokemon in the past could since they were offensive in one way or another so I don't really get that point (and many other Pokemon too even if Keldeo is gone and a lot of Pokemon reap the benefits of weakened counters too like Lucario to name one of the top of my head).
However, I'm willing to agree to disagree since you obviously don't feel the same way.
I never said it couldn't get SR + 1 Spikes (2 is really pushing it and you know it). I had said no player of skill would let it get THREE of them up, and never implied anything else otherwise please don't put words into my mouth.
I felt that Forrey / Skarm + Gar + Keldeo was a poor argument because that's half a team, and quite honestly I don't see how Keldeo is exclusive to being able to abuse SR + 1 Spikes. However, we can agree to disagree. I only implied this in the case of Skarm / Gar / Keldeo as well, as Tyranitar is an obvious exception as well as rain support.
If I'm using Skarm / Gar / Keldeo then I'm pretty handicapped in the teambuilding process (not to mention that Keldeo isn't muscling past Latias or Starmie anymore what with it being CM and all and Lati@s and Starmie threaten those other three. You could bring up more teammates but honestly that just limits me more, etc. Or Scarf Keldeo instead but then it lacks backbone to muscle past it's other checks / counters so I digress I can see that this is a viable way to utilize Keldeo's strength but I don't see how using full teams (or half teams) can be considered viable arguments to ban Keldeo).
I never said Keldeo couldn't be used on these types of teams, only that the fact that we are providing Keldeo with so much support does not convince me it's broken (any Pokemon can do well if a team supports it imo x.x) -- the fact that it can be used on hazard stacking teams isn't exclusive to Keldeo since just about every suspect Pokemon in the past could since they were offensive in one way or another so I don't really get that point (and many other Pokemon too even if Keldeo is gone and a lot of Pokemon reap the benefits of weakened counters too like Lucario to name one of the top of my head).
However, I'm willing to agree to disagree since you obviously don't feel the same way.
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Every. Single. Pokemon needs support. There inst a pokemon that you can literally slap on any team and expect it to work. We banned pokemons that were only broken on weather teams, we banned a pokemon that was only broken on HO, we banned a pokemon that was only broken in an specific core and team archetype and now we have keldeo who is broken in any team except sun. Custap lead+gar inst a lot of support, its just the standard for HO which in the same way that pursuit trap is the standard for sand offense. Yes keldeo needs support but so does every single pokemon and keldeo also happens to work with any kind of team. So yeah teammates is an excellent argument specially when keldeo works with most teams instead of being restricted to a single archetype.
It's not that Keldeo needs support, but it's that you can replace Keldeo with A LOT of pokemon in that core and make it seem broken if you assume gengar always prevents spinning and custapskarm always gets sr + 2 spikes up
If it was actually that hard to deal with, though.. I'd much rather ban those 2.
I was about to post that playing with/against Keldeo, I've found the the Expert Belt set is probably the best. Before the suspect test, I'd almost exclusively run the Choice Scarf set, but E-belt is very good. The opponent usually has no idea if you are choiced or e-belt, and in my experiences against Keldeo. Also before the supect test i was leaning towards a ban on Keldeo. However, while playing to get reqs, I've found that while Keldeo is always a threat, because it is obviously one of the best OU pokemon. I don't find it to be broken. I generally have a way to check it and get rid of it (sometimes with a bit of trouble, but i digress). Once you find out Keldeo is choiced it is very easy to deal with with things like offensive Latias (which I have been using to great success on the ladder).
Anyways, at least as of now, I'm gonna have to say Keldeo is not broken.
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In general, Keldeo's checks / counters range quite a bit. Some good checks are Starmie, Venusaur, Celebi (HP Bug?) / bulkier Latias, Toxicroak, and things that outspeed it like Alakazam. More defensive counters like Amoonguss and Tentacruel are rather easier ways to beat it. Keldeo just can't harm them, although a Specs Icy Wind does hurt a less Specially Defensive Amoonguss. Keldeo does have a harder time against defensive teams as it can't directly beat its more defensive counters. Roserade is also a pretty nifty check that works pretty well, but if you aren't running Rest you may be in trouble if you switch in very often.
Counters/Checks:
Amoongus- would not be used if Keldeo wasn't in the meta
Specially Defensive Celebi- can be beaten with hazards, pursuit, or hp bug
Jellicent- Beaten by pursuit or with hp ghost and hazards
Invested Latias- can be beaten by eb keldeo and pursuit
Tentacruel/toxicroak- not viable for the vast majority of styles, including many types of rain
Checks
Latios- defeated by some pursuits, but I would say it's actually better (imho) than some of the counters if you can put some spikes up to get the 2hko on ttar that aren't heavily invested.
Starmie- can be beaten by icy wind or pursuit, can't ko without LO
Venusaur- not viable for the majority of teams, can be defeated by icy wind and hazards. also TTar can Pursuit it too.
Other things that are faster and KO are checks too, but they can be icy winded so they need to be able to really hit Keldeo hard. The pokemon in bold are the only pokemon that are even close to being as difficult to switch in on as Keldeo is: Celebi has baton pass, amoongus has spore, and Latios is Latios. All the others are momentum losers or pokemon/movesets of pokemon that aren't viable except that they answer Keldeo, and some of them are just too easily beaten to rely on.
That list is missing Slowking. While it's certainly a gimmick, it's quite possibly the best Keldeo counter in the game. Regenerator plus slack off, and psyshock to bypass CM variants makes almost impossible for Keldeo to break it. HP bug only does around 40% from specs variants. Unfortunately, it shares the pursuit weakness with many of the Pokemon you listed.
The thing about all these pokemon getting Pursuited does not make any sense to me because the majority of them have STAB super-effective moves against Tranitar, who is the Pokemon I'm assuming you are referring to since it is the one of the only pokemon in OU that usually packs it. Also, saying pokemon aren't viable in OU or saying they wouldn't be used if a certain Pokemon didn't exist is not an incredibly viable argument since it still proves the counter exists, even if it is unconventional.
Also, to comment on some of those pokemon individually, I agree that all the bolded pokemon are very solid counters to Keldeo. As for Jellicent, any remotely specially defensive one is not threatened by any variant other than the choice specs one which still only does 40% - 48% to the standard spread Smogon recommends with a super-effective hidden power. This is damage that can easily be recovered off and if you see it do a huge chunk like that, it is obviously going to be specs and allow you to safely switch into anything else to handle it. Even if you do force Keldeo out and Tyranitar comes in afterwards, Jellicent can easily pack Will-O-Wisp to burn it and make any pursuit trapping attempt ineffective. The only variant of Tyranitar that threatens Jellicent is the banded one in this situation, which is also a predicted switch in you can just as easily switch out to account for before you can get pursuit trapped. There is also the fact of how an univested scald will do around 28% to this type of Tyranitar and threaten with the burn chance, making the person using the Keldeo a bit more cautious to just switch Tyranitar in and pursuit trap it. Tentacruel, can also counter Keldeo's offense and I would argue it is extremely useful on many types of teams. Even on rain teams where Keldeo is getting the bonus of the weather, a Tentacruel can still just Protect with a combination of leftovers and rain dish to easily take two Hydro Pumps. Venusaur will also easily threaten out Keldeo as it outspeeds in sun and can OHKO it or take hits similarly to Amoonguss if it so desires to run a defensive set, which people seem to forget it is capable of doing. I also feel Gastrodon can be added to this list because outside of a specs Secret Sword, it can handle any other attack from this pokemon and recover off the damage
As far as threats that outspeed, there are 8 in OU that do it naturally and plenty of other common scarfers that outspeed and threaten a non scarfed set. Even with the scarfed set outspeeding them, it then no longer has the power to KO most of the defensive pokemon that can easily put a stop to it. There are also a ton of other pokemon that outspeed it in lower tiers that could be completely viable in OU such as Raikou, Crobat, Azelf, and Tornadus. Once you can figure out the item or know what hidden power it is running, this pokemon becomes just as easy to handle as any other common offensive threat in OU.
That's a very loose definition of either "perfectly" or "viable".
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Do not be overly optimistic about a pokemon's ability to damage Tyranitar simply because they can hit it with a Super Effective Stab move, Tyranitar has amazing special bulk. Most of these pokemon will fail to 3hko specially defensive ttar with leftovers. Also Scizor is perfectly capable of pursuiting many of these pokemon as well. When I talk about Pursuit trapping I'm exclusively talking about Tyranitar and Scizor.
Now you are very right in saying, 'just because the counters would not be used if Keldeo did not exist, still proves counters exist.' To be clear, the crux of this area of the discussion is that the counters/checks are 1. not reliable or 2. not suited to be used on many styles. Specially defensive Celebi is the only exception I think, but it must run a very inferior move set to avoid being trapped and is not particularly affective at anything but soaking up Scald, Hydro Pumps, and Surfs. It has little offensive presence and doesn't do very much for stall either compared to pokemon with similar roles, like Ferrothorn or Chansey. In addition it is 4x weak to bug, which means Keldeo can get past it with HP Bug. I've talked about the metagame-breaking affect that Keldeo has do to lack of viable ways of dealing with it in other posts in this thread (many team styles are forced to choose between pokemon that handle Keldeo, but are substantially inferior, or choose better pkmn that cannot deal with Keldeo in an effective way, and this increases the importance of team matchup, which is not competitive.)
Do not be overly optimistic about a pokemon's ability to damage Tyranitar simply because they can hit it with a Super Effective Stab move, Tyranitar has amazing special bulk. Most of these pokemon will fail to 3hko specially defensive ttar with leftovers. Also Scizor is perfectly capable of pursuiting many of these pokemon as well. When I talk about Pursuit trapping I'm exclusively talking about Tyranitar and Scizor.
Now you are very right in saying, 'just because the counters would not be used if Keldeo did not exist, still proves counters exist.' To be clear, the crux of this area of the discussion is that the counters/checks are 1. not reliable or 2. not suited to be used on many styles. Specially defensive Celebi is the only exception I think, but it must run a very inferior move set to avoid being trapped and is not particularly affective at anything but soaking up Scald, Hydro Pumps, and Surfs. It has little offensive presence and doesn't do very much for stall either compared to pokemon with similar roles, like Ferrothorn or Chansey. In addition it is 4x weak to bug, which means Keldeo can get past it with HP Bug. I've talked about the metagame-breaking affect that Keldeo has do to lack of viable ways of dealing with it in other posts in this thread (many team styles are forced to choose between pokemon that handle Keldeo, but are substantially inferior, or choose better pkmn that cannot deal with Keldeo in an effective way, and this increases the importance of team matchup, which is not competitive.)
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I might sound naive but a lot of these arguments sound like people describing poke'mon? Aren't there a bunch of mons, whom, after their #1 checks/counters are out of the game, it can wreak havoc? I don't think Keldeo is the only one who does it. The argument about "keldeo does so much with its counters gone" and "trapping its counters is easy" sounds like poke'mon. Don't people make teams with other marquee sweepers/killers and put mons on their team to help? DragMag sounds like TTarDeo(KelTar?). It just seems like Keldeo damages resists past 50% which is being deemed as "unhealthy for the meta"(and I agree it makes me think 'OP') on top of being able to hit it's counters/checks set it apart. But think again? There are CBmons who do 50%+ as well and they can carry odd moves to deal damage to counters/checks. Kelranideo(tyranikel?) is strong but it's nothing new.
I'm getting a little annoyed with people saying Keldeo forces Celebi to run an inferior moveset (Baton Pass instead of U-Turn) to escape Pursuit. Keldeo is not the Pokemon forcing Celebi to do this, Tyranitar and Scizor are (and I think we all agree that they're not broken). If Keldeo gets banned, Celebi will still run this set, because it lets it escape two of its biggest enemies, and it's not like Keldeo being gone would stop these Pokemon from running Pursuit. Also, how exactly is it an inferior moveset if it lets Celebi escape these Pokemon when it would have been trapped and KOed if it were running U-Turn?
Just to echo the sentiments of the above users, we are trying to improve the analyses. Many of the sets are good. There are certain policies we have in C&C, such as not Speed creeping, that may not reflect the certain amount of Speed some people run. We are always seeking to optimize the spreads and moves, however. If you have any concerns with the quality of our analyses, more specifically keeping sets up to date, go to this thread. Cut the abrasive tone though -- that's not helping anyone.
In any case, I just finished the reqs on the suspect ladder, and honestly, I didn't really notice a difference without Keldeo. I saw a crap ton of Starmie, Scizor, and Rotom-W, which wasn't all that enjoyable tbh. Scarf Landorus-T was also a common thing I faced. Jirachi was also more common, and I saw a couple physically defensive Amoonguss. Those were about it though...I guess it's just a matter of easy mode teams. I saw some stall, and guess what? The teams ran the EXACT SAME Pokemon. I saw SDef Celebi, SDef Amoonguss, bulky Rotom-W, Latias, Tentacruel, etc. I'm convinced that this means Keldeo is not the thing restricting teambuilding. Starmie, Rotom-W, and Politoed are stepping up and becoming the next Hydro Pump spammers. They're not broken, having their checks, and neither is Keldeo.
btw, my accounts were porla and flying jug o.o -- I had some fun, thoughtful matches. I ran a couple of my own teams and Bryce's Toxicroak rain offense for a stretch toward the end of my run.
In any case, I just finished the reqs on the suspect ladder, and honestly, I didn't really notice a difference without Keldeo. I saw a crap ton of Starmie, Scizor, and Rotom-W, which wasn't all that enjoyable tbh. Scarf Landorus-T was also a common thing I faced. Jirachi was also more common, and I saw a couple physically defensive Amoonguss. Those were about it though...I guess it's just a matter of easy mode teams. I saw some stall, and guess what? The teams ran the EXACT SAME Pokemon. I saw SDef Celebi, SDef Amoonguss, bulky Rotom-W, Latias, Tentacruel, etc. I'm convinced that this means Keldeo is not the thing restricting teambuilding. Starmie, Rotom-W, and Politoed are stepping up and becoming the next Hydro Pump spammers. They're not broken, having their checks, and neither is Keldeo.
btw, my accounts were porla and flying jug o.o -- I had some fun, thoughtful matches. I ran a couple of my own teams and Bryce's Toxicroak rain offense for a stretch toward the end of my run.
I'm giving up on getting reqs; while getting the rating is easy enough, keeping a 2:1 ratio on suspect is proving to be incredibly difficult, even though it was a breeze on current. I've restarted 3-4 times and my last alt just went from 13-3 to 14-8, and I've had enough. I guess I'm just not good enough to get reqs this time around. I'd still like to share my experiences with the two metas though.
I pretty much agree with what Jukain said about there not being a huge difference between the ladders. Keldeo isn't hindering crap IMO, people are still running the same sets Keldeo metagame or not. Checking Keldeo really isn't that much different than checking other hydro spammers, which is why pokes like sdef Celebi are still used. I really wouldn't say Keldeo is any more of a threat than LO analytic Starmie, which has basically taken Keldeo's role on the suspect ladder. Rain is really the only thing that makes hydro spam difficult to check, but of course you can always bring your own weather to combat that. Without rain, Keldeo really can't break through the likes of spdef Celebi, Amoonguss, etc., which is the main reason I don't think it's broken.
One difference I've noticed between the ladders though, is that volt-turn cores are much more common on suspect. This is possibly due to the absence of Keldeo, as it resists u-turn and outspeeds every volt switcher except for the uncommon (and mostly underwhelming) Jolteon. I'm not saying that this is a positive or negative effect of Keldeo's absence, this is just what I've observed from playing many matches on both ladders, as in the past I've never really noticed how Keldeo helped keep volt-turn in check.
I pretty much agree with what Jukain said about there not being a huge difference between the ladders. Keldeo isn't hindering crap IMO, people are still running the same sets Keldeo metagame or not. Checking Keldeo really isn't that much different than checking other hydro spammers, which is why pokes like sdef Celebi are still used. I really wouldn't say Keldeo is any more of a threat than LO analytic Starmie, which has basically taken Keldeo's role on the suspect ladder. Rain is really the only thing that makes hydro spam difficult to check, but of course you can always bring your own weather to combat that. Without rain, Keldeo really can't break through the likes of spdef Celebi, Amoonguss, etc., which is the main reason I don't think it's broken.
One difference I've noticed between the ladders though, is that volt-turn cores are much more common on suspect. This is possibly due to the absence of Keldeo, as it resists u-turn and outspeeds every volt switcher except for the uncommon (and mostly underwhelming) Jolteon. I'm not saying that this is a positive or negative effect of Keldeo's absence, this is just what I've observed from playing many matches on both ladders, as in the past I've never really noticed how Keldeo helped keep volt-turn in check.
nah, that just means people in the suspect test dont care enough to make actual teams and instead they just use a team they had that doesnt have keldeo. really, the biggest flaw of suspect tests are that it really doesnt represent the way the metagame will look. if keldeo is banned, how the metagame will look will be decided by future tournaments and their players, as they set the pace for the development by teambuilding and trying out new stuff. theres 0 reason to do this for suspect ladder because it offers absolutely no advantages over using a team i had made that has no keldeo, therefore giving an inaccurate representation. this also goes to the guy saying voltturn is everywhere. volt turn is p much the same team all the time and doesnt use keldeo (as in doesnt exactly need it, could use it), therefore making it a perfect style to use in ladder as it requires 0 teambuilding and little to no thinking.
really just use rational thinking a little bit before posting "waa ladders r the same"
I'm going to agree with this, with a replay to boot.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent-45651155
As you notice throughout the match, all of my Keldeo "checks" are hit hard by Drizzle threats, showing that their presence is all still needed, and not at all specialized/tailored to defeat Keldeo. I really don't think Keldeo is the broken culprit here.
The issue is that rain (and sun to a much lesser extent) in GENERAL has the same negative effects that keldeo perpetuates. Since it has been established that rain is going nowhere (for good reason... There is absolutely no time for that adjustment), our best recourse is to ban the "next best abuser" in order to nerf the entire threat. Was that my agenda going into the test? No. I only really considered it after the previous post. I came into the suspect test seeing Keldeo as an unhealthy presense in the meta that also has the capability to perform a standard sweeping role later in the game. Whether that brokenness is simply an effect of rain is no matter since rain DOES EXIST AND IS NOT LEAVING. As such, keldeo+rain is the least common denominator that we can consider (with added pursuit support and the like being the greatest)
That's a poor conclusion, its just that nobody is going to change their teams around till after the meta would settle down after (potentially) keldeo being banned.
In my case, I just got done with OU current and was looking for changes to my team for OU suspect (running Hail obv).
Thing is, I had designed the synergy of the team hand n hand for it to work against as many threats as possible while not getting destroyed by Keldeo. To account for Keldeo being gone and bringing in things that were not viable to run with it around, that would mean building a new team from the ground up.
I may not be laddering due to school and I miss out on this suspect but I would like to agree here.
I run a rain team with Orb Thundurous-T and Scarf-Keldeo. Thundurous has gotten me more KOs than Keldeo (on average in a game as well) and I believe only once or twice have Keldeo gotten 3+ KOs in a game. And with those 3+ KOs, Keldeo got 1 or 2 revenge kills then swept up a weakened team. Also, I'm more terrified of Sun and Venusaur than any other team. I've never beaten a Sun team yet. But never lost a game because my opponent had Keldeo. I also don't run Celebi or a Latias. Infact most KOs a Keldeo has gotten against me was 2 or 3. One was a revenge kill, the other I was already weakened on my last Pokemon.
IMO I don't think it's broken. Is it a Pokemon you should be prepared for? Yes. Is it good? Yes. Is it broken? No. I don't even think it's the best Pokemon in the game. I know we shouldn't use usage as an argument but Keldeo being 13th on the normal ladder and 7th on the 1850 ladder screams something is a miss. If something is broken shouldn't it be used a lot more than 7th? Yes usage isn't a big deal but using the old Garchomp comparision where I believe the team was "Lead, Garchomp, Garchomp Counter #1, Garchomp Counter #2, Counter of Garchomp's Counter, Spinner and/or Anti-Lead" Garchomp's usage reflected that. I don't think the metagame statistics reflect that when you replace Garchomp with Keldeo. Usage only tells part of the story however.
I've looked over the thread at a glance a few times and I get the feeling more than once someone suggests a counter to Keldeo and someone responds with "what if it was running x instead of y?" and that annoys me. Keldeo can't run with full EVs in each stat, have choice specs, choice scarf and expert belt as it's item and run the moveset HP/Surf/SW/HP Ice/HP Grass/HP Ghost. I feel like say "play better" is an insult and a cop out but I feel like with careful play in a game you can work out it's set. If you get surprised then your opponent outplayed you and good job to them. That's part of the game. If they make you think they have HP Ice by switching out on your Jelli once, then next time hitting you with it, good job to them. They make you think they have a scarf or specs but have Expert Belt then you've been out played. Your opponent can do that with any Pokemon on any team. Ttar can Pursuit trap something, make you think it's banned by switching only to switch back in later and KO with Expert Belt. That leads me to weather.
In the rain yes Keldeo is more powerful. But what water Pokemon isn't? We all thought Kingdra was OP when rain was allowed with Swift Swim. Toxicroak is better with rain, don't make it broken does it? Rain makes all water types and other Mons as well, better. I don't think we can make a ban on something simply because of weather. If that was the cause I wanna ban Venusaur cause it's stupidly good in the Sun. Weather is a bonus to a Pokemon. But I don't feel like it makes it broken.
Overall, no, I don't think we should ban Keldeo. I'm upset I don't get to participate properly in this test so I'm only going on what I have played with and against Keldeo. From that experience I can confidently say a few things:
- Keldeo doesn't easily sweep and obtain 3+ KOs (this is not including late game when the opponent has is weakened as any competent sweep can do that)
- Keldeo does not become an "I win" selection any first time player can use to ensure wins (I have a win/loss of about 70/55 and I use Keldeo)
- Keldeo does have counters which hinder it's sweeping ability (it relys on HP for coverage and will miss KOs on certain counters due to this)
- Keldeo does not centeralise the Metagame as whilst I do use it I hardly see it
Also the statistics don't back up claims of it being centralizing. I do not think we should ban something that can be stopped, can't easily KO, doesn't become an "I win" button and that doesn't make the Metagame revolve around it.
Usage stats have nothing to do with this or any suspect tests specially if its used to back up this ridiculous argument: "Keldeo does not centralize the metagame because I hardly see it"
There inst an "i win button" pokemon that is uncounterable nor is anyone saying keldeo is such a thing. Every pokemon that got banned had ways around them but they were simply too powerful for the tier because they required specific and very few checks and counters to beat them and could easily beat the rest of the tier and keldeo is no different. Also can we please stop talking about banning rain. It wont be suspected in this gen anymore so this is all pointless. Whether keldeo is only broken in rain or not is irrelevant because rain inst going anywhere.
There inst an "i win button" pokemon that is uncounterable nor is anyone saying keldeo is such a thing. Every pokemon that got banned had ways around them but they were simply too powerful for the tier because they required specific and very few checks and counters to beat them and could easily beat the rest of the tier and keldeo is no different. Also can we please stop talking about banning rain. It wont be suspected in this gen anymore so this is all pointless. Whether keldeo is only broken in rain or not is irrelevant because rain inst going anywhere.
But, to some degree, shouldn't usage reflect that? I know usage isn't the be all and end all of suspects but if something was simply too powerful for the tier with specific checks and counters, shouldn't the usage be reflective of that? Shouldn't Keledo be used more as it's harder to counter? Therefore shouldn't also it's counters? To me it seems to ridiculous to ignore what we basically almost base our tiers on to begin with when it comes to a discussion on whether something is over-centralising or not. If it was over-centralising it should be used more and therefore so should it's counters. The usages backs up my statement of me hardly seeing it. Because that's the truth. Roughly 1 in 8 games I play the opponent has a Keldeo. My statement may seem childish but I'm allowed to point out my observation. On the subject of the "I win" button, if we dropped say Arceus in OU, wouldn't it become an "I win" button simply because of it's power? That would be over-centralising. Keldeo doesn't have that effect.
Unsure if this was directed at me but if it is, I didn't intend to ban rain. I was stating that whilst rain makes it better it also makes other things better and therefore shouldn't be used in this discussion of it making Keldeo broken.
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