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Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)
- Thread starter GCSChris
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Pikachu light ball offenses arent even breaking past the kyurem formes. Mawile on the other hand has much higher attack than deoxys-a and i think its higher than a life orb deoxys-a. So no, they arent even comparable, specially when mawile has that typing and boosted defenses to make up for speed.
Lol you know it. Now I can finally use poison moves without being noobsish/bad.
Well of 'course i am assuming that they will release some competent Pokemon from the new typing that they have been advertising as crazy, but is this really too much to assume?
You say that the resistances of Fairy-types are small in quantity. It has a total of 4 resistances / immunities so let's check out some other types that are considered as good defensively. Water-type, which has resistances. Dragon-type, with 4 resistances. Ground-type, with 3 resistances. Ghost-type, which has 4 resistances / immunities. And Poison-type, with 4 resistances. So you can see that what you say about the Fairy-type not having enough resistances doesn't make any sense.
As for if Fairy-type moves are going to be good offensively, one thing is certain. They will be one of the best offensive STABs for a Pokemon to have, and this is for two reasons. They hit a big number of commonly used type for super effective damage (with the exception of Dark, which is not that common) and they create combos that get almost unresisted neutral coverage when paired with Dark, Ghost, or even Steel. Now, if non Fairy-types will commonly use Fairy moves is something that i can't talk about without making huge assumptions, but i think that Pokemon which would get almost perfect neutral coverage when combining their STAB with a Fairy-type move ( Dark, Ghost, and Steel) would probably want to use Fairy-type attacks.
Just because it lost some resists does not lower its potential. Don't forget, now he can kill steels with steel wing if needed.
As swamp rocket said in the ubers forum
"Weezing, Ho-oh, Charizard (lol), Moltres, Crobat, Rotom-H, and Skarmory resist the combo. Ho-oh and Skarmory are relevant so this is a bit of a problem for the combo."
Ho oh is obviously über so disregard that so looking on that list the only thing that is immune/resistant to ground/fairy that is somewhat relevant is skarm and arguably zard. Zard has piss poor defenses and a horrendous weakness to stealth rock while skarm is weak on the special side and has less resists now so it'll lack some of the tanking abilities it used to have. So ground/fairy seems fairly solid as a offensive typing.
It doesn't have perfect coverage, but essentially. I'm not particularly threatened by unSTAB EQ, since there are plenty of things that can take this combo. Venusaur, Volcarona, Ferrothorn, etc. Make a pokemon with those dual STABs and we'll talk.
As a side note, what exactly qualifies as a "good" type for all the naysayers that don't think Fairy will change things? Are 4 key resistances/immunities and great neutral coverage not enough? We don't need the second coming of the steel type to change the meta and people should really stop expecting that.
Finally, even if GF follows the precedent set in Gen 2 and only introduces enough fairies to amount to 2% of the current national dex, that's still 12 pokemon. That's not counting retcons and GF has already revealed 5 completely new fairy-type lines. By comparison, Ghost only has 14 lines and it's doing just fine.
That is true, but one of two things could happen, one, specially defensive sets would see more usage other then on my team, or, two, gf could surprise us and pull out more Pokemon. I personally have been waiting for a levitating poison/steel type, but that probably stems from my underlying affinity for poison and ground types.
Heatran gets yet another 4x resist while Scizor has gotten even stronger offensively. Frankly, Scizor did not need yet another offensive buff. I suppose it might be odd flavorwise if the Fairy type were immune to U-turn, but the move is fairly broken/guaranteed momentum unlike Volt Switch, so I wish that Fairy types brought this immunity to the table. Scizor can't U-turn easily against a Fairy type due to the new resistance, but it still beats most with Technician boosted STAB bullet punch. Steel type pokemon got buffed even more this generation, and it's pretty pointless honestly because they resist almost everything to begin with, and the loss in Dark/Ghost 2x resistances barely matters because there are no Dark or Ghost moves above 85 BP, while a new resistance to the Fairy type is entirely unnecessary. There is even more prevalence on the Steel type now, and they're rise even higher in usage. Dragons have had coverage options in Superpower, Earthquake, and Fire Blast to get around them, but must now carry a potential Steel move to get past Fairy types which are immune, weakening their coverage and strengthening Steel types even more.
I'm hoping that the distribution of parting shot is low, or else it could get obnoxious with every Fairy seizing insane momentum within one turn. I'm also hoping that GameFreak doesn't give Fairy pokemon overpowered 120 BP moves, but relegates them to the same level moves as Ghosts. If there are absurdly powerful Fairy moves on an offensive pokemon, I hope that it is limited in coverage like Keldeo, being forced to rely on a weak HP and 55BP Icy Wind to hit certain pokemon super effectively. If we get overpowered offensive Fairies, the new metagame will be terribly(in a terrible way) offensive. I'm hoping that Fairy type pokemon are more like Ground or Steel types; Bulky, and defensive, but with enough power to handle themselves. We might just get a more balanced metagame instead of what we have now.
The immunity to Dragon type moves is awesome, though I see this giving more popularity to offensive dragons with solid secondary STAB options like Garchomp, Lati@s, Hydreigon, and Kyurem(B). Choiced Dragons should decrease in usage greatly, and we'll still see many boosting sets.
I'm excited by the much needed buff to Poison, as we (hopefully) will see a rise in defensive(Amoonguss, Nidoqueen) and maybe offensive poison types. Poison type pokemon have decent STABs, and function more as cleric/support pokemon, sporting very useful resistances, immunity to poison, and toxic spike absorption/placement. The slight buff to Fire type pokemon which now resist Fairy (but don't hit it super effectively) is appreciated, but for the most part only Heatran will enjoy the new resistance as a defensive Fire type pokemon. Venusaur, Toxicroak, and Gengar have much greater incentive to run Poison type moves, though I do not see anything besides Muk rising in usage to abuse Poison type moves. (Nidoking is still too slow, though a Sheer Force Modest Scarf set might have a niche role in OU)
Dragons yet again have solid coverage for every single type that resists or more importantly, is immune to their moves. Dragonite, Garchomp, and Haxorus get 100 BP 75% accurate STEEL type Iron Tail (Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B get 80 BP Iron Head) Special attacking dragons get many other coverage or STAB options, and therefore will have to rely on them instead.
I'm hoping that the distribution of parting shot is low, or else it could get obnoxious with every Fairy seizing insane momentum within one turn. I'm also hoping that GameFreak doesn't give Fairy pokemon overpowered 120 BP moves, but relegates them to the same level moves as Ghosts. If there are absurdly powerful Fairy moves on an offensive pokemon, I hope that it is limited in coverage like Keldeo, being forced to rely on a weak HP and 55BP Icy Wind to hit certain pokemon super effectively. If we get overpowered offensive Fairies, the new metagame will be terribly(in a terrible way) offensive. I'm hoping that Fairy type pokemon are more like Ground or Steel types; Bulky, and defensive, but with enough power to handle themselves. We might just get a more balanced metagame instead of what we have now.
The immunity to Dragon type moves is awesome, though I see this giving more popularity to offensive dragons with solid secondary STAB options like Garchomp, Lati@s, Hydreigon, and Kyurem(B). Choiced Dragons should decrease in usage greatly, and we'll still see many boosting sets.
I'm excited by the much needed buff to Poison, as we (hopefully) will see a rise in defensive(Amoonguss, Nidoqueen) and maybe offensive poison types. Poison type pokemon have decent STABs, and function more as cleric/support pokemon, sporting very useful resistances, immunity to poison, and toxic spike absorption/placement. The slight buff to Fire type pokemon which now resist Fairy (but don't hit it super effectively) is appreciated, but for the most part only Heatran will enjoy the new resistance as a defensive Fire type pokemon. Venusaur, Toxicroak, and Gengar have much greater incentive to run Poison type moves, though I do not see anything besides Muk rising in usage to abuse Poison type moves. (Nidoking is still too slow, though a Sheer Force Modest Scarf set might have a niche role in OU)
Dragons yet again have solid coverage for every single type that resists or more importantly, is immune to their moves. Dragonite, Garchomp, and Haxorus get 100 BP 75% accurate STEEL type Iron Tail (Garchomp, Dragonite, and Kyurem-B get 80 BP Iron Head) Special attacking dragons get many other coverage or STAB options, and therefore will have to rely on them instead.
Ok, so I will admit I was forgetting about Bug and only thinking of 3 resists/immunities. Even so though, I really don't think they are anything all that special. The key for Pokemon is resisting, not individual types, but movesets. While neither of its weaknesses are all that common (yet), its resistances don't exactly pair together that well. The most common Bug move is U-Turn which resisting is nice, but being hit by it means they can switch to a counter. Fighting is probably the nicest of the resists, but pretty much every relevant fighting type has a secondary STAB that hits for neutral damage. Dark, is nice to have but not a common attacking type. Finally, Dragon immunity sounds awesome, but again, every single dragon, bar Hydreigon carries neutral hitting coverage (and has the option of SE coverage). Even if Fairy was the be all end all Dragon stop, that just means Dragons are used less, making the offensive advantages of the type less important. Again, I think that Fairy simply by itself is not all that good defensively. You compared to some other types, but they have the advantage of resisting common paired moves. Water resists Water+Ice. Dragon resists Grass+Fire, and is frequently paired with things letting it resist other common moves paired with the elements it resists. Fairy, I think, lacks that use by itself, but is similar in that, when paired with the right typing, can be very good defensively.
The real thing though is that I feel on the offensive side people are looking too much at the current metagame and not thinking about how it would change. In my mind, the more successful Fairy is defensively, the less successful it will be offensively. It only looks good offensively at all because the things it hits hard are common. But if it is that good at beating them, they won't be nearly as common. Such a situation will only arise if the fairies are good themselves regardless of whether Dragons and Fighters are common, or, in other words, if they are naturally good and not a niche counter. So, while I think that a single good fairy thrown into the gen 5 meta would be good offensively, in a meta adapted to their existence, that won't really be the case. Again, I think flying type is probably the best comparison here.
Of course, all of this is dependant on the Pokemon themselves. Typing is important, but not that defining. Dragon is good because it has good members, not because the typing itself is so good (it is, but without the members, that wouldn't matter).
Edit @IcyMan28 : I did say I thought it was good as a dual type, but just that the type by itself is unimpressive defensively, unlike say Dragon or Water. Also, more importantly, you are making a very big assumption when you say subpar attacking type. If Fairy is good, they are not subpar. Subpar would be running a move for one specific Pokemon you are weak to. Not running a move that covers a wide range of opponents. Its impossible to say what attacking types will be good and which will not be, which is why assuming Fighting and Dragon resists are great, for example, is somewhat silly, as we have no way of knowing if those types will still be common or not.
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Wait, besides from Fairy pokemon and Steel types, what else now resists Dragon moves?
He means that the Dragon type has four resistances, namely FWG + Electric.
EDIT: @jas61292 You can't look at Fairy's utility as a mono-type when comparing it to Fighting or Dragon pokemon that are dual-typed. If that's the case, we can play the same game. In my opinion, Fairy is almost always a great type to have (in addition to another) because its resistances tend to be high powered pokemon with high BP moves. Dragon/Fire, Fighting/Rock...those combos are good because each part of it covers types that the first is weak against, but that won't work against Fairy. You can only hope for neutral damage at best. Lots of pokemon can use Iron Tail/Iron Head, whatever. The mere fact that they are having to run a subpar attacking type is in itself a pretty big metagame shift.
EDIT: @jas61292 You can't look at Fairy's utility as a mono-type when comparing it to Fighting or Dragon pokemon that are dual-typed. If that's the case, we can play the same game. In my opinion, Fairy is almost always a great type to have (in addition to another) because its resistances tend to be high powered pokemon with high BP moves. Dragon/Fire, Fighting/Rock...those combos are good because each part of it covers types that the first is weak against, but that won't work against Fairy. You can only hope for neutral damage at best. Lots of pokemon can use Iron Tail/Iron Head, whatever. The mere fact that they are having to run a subpar attacking type is in itself a pretty big metagame shift.
Steel can't take on Ghost & Fairy is weak to Poison.
"Finally! My time has come!"
But seriously, Drapion has always been a fantastic Psychic/Ghost counter. Unfortunately, that's about all he could do aside from lay Toxic Spikes...until Fairy arrived! He's also not bad with a Scarf with Ice Fang & Pursuit for Gengar, Alakazam, and Dragons respectively. Food for thought.
I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who noticed this. Drapion can finally be the wrecker I know he can be.
jas sorry, but what you say really makes no sense. Fairy doesn't resist commonly paired moves? What about Fighting + Dark, which is commonly used by Fighting Pokemon? And then you go and mention Water and Dragon, which resist Water + Ice and Grass + Fire, when every offensive Pokemon that carries those combos has another move to hit Water and Dragon-types at least neutrally, respectively? I don't know about which game you are talking, but in this game good offensive type combos are Fighting + Rock, Ghost + Fighting, Ice + Ground, Electric + Ice, Water + Flying, Flying + Fighting, and Ground + Rock. Those are the kind of combos offensive Pokemon use in order to be difficult to wall, and no single type alone resists them. Every one of those types that we were talking about (Water, Ghost, Ground, Poison, and Dragon) usually doesn't have enough resistances to make a good defensive mon, alone, unless this mon has huge defensive stats, and the same is true for Fairy. But Fairy pairs perfect defensively with a ton of both good offensive and defensive types (Ground, Water, Ghost, Fighting, Steel, Electric, Poison), making it undoubtedly one of the best and most synergetic defensive typings.
And what does the bolded sentence even mean? Does Golurk resist every of Terrakion's coverage moves? No, but it still counters it. Does Skarmory resist every coverage move of CB Scizor? No, but it still counters it. Every Fairy-type with even remotely good defensive stats that is not weak to the common coverage options of Dragons (Fire, Water, and Ground) will easily take two neutral coverage hits and OHKO back, making for a very good answer to them. Of 'course the Dragon-types that get strong Poison and Steel moves could use them to hurt the Fairy-types, but this would greatly limit their coverage against Steel-types and would leave them with bad 4mss.
Your assumption that Fairy won't be that good of a typing is based only on the type not getting any good Pokemon, which is absurd to say the least...
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First off, yes, its true, offensive combos that are used are not resisted fully by most Pokemon. However when deciding if a typing is good defensively you make sure that the one move hitting them neutral is the non-STAB one. All common Dragon's bar Hydreigon have a neutral hitting secondary STAB. Not all them run that STAB (the flying ones), but that's because such a move doesn't really exist. But Dragonite and Salamence getting reliable flying STAB is no more or less likely than Fairy having good moves. All common fighting types have a neutral hitting secondary STAB. All common bugs have a neutral or better hitting secondary STAB. You get the picture. The only guys who are fine taking neutral hitting STAB attacks from powerful offensive mons are ones with absolutely fantastic bulk. So yeah, if you give one Skarmory bulk it could make a good defensive mon. It is good enough defensively for that. But for your more average bulk Pokemon, Fairy is not providing a ton of safe switch ins.
I think my problem with what you are saying is that you are making a lot of assumptions yourself. Taking two neutral hits and OHKOing back? How about a Specially Defensive fairy with the bulk of Mantine (aka Special Skarmory)? Is that walling Latios? Not likely. And that's with a neutral hitting coverage. Most dragons have enough room for more than one coverage move easily. Its not 4MSS so much as Dragon Move/Steel Coverage/Filler/Filler. Garchomp would be fine running Iron Head if need be to take out a bulky Fairy. But more importantly, assuming the OHKO is I think the problem. Skarmory is the definition of a defensive Pokemon. Its not OHKOing Keldeo. Or Venusaur. And that is with a 120 Power (and 100% accurate) move, which Fairy is in no way guaranteed to have. It is very possible that those Pokemon will be getting 3 hits in, not 2.
Now, don't get me wrong, Immunity to Dragon is awesome, but without a secondary typing resistant to their coverage moves, I just think dragons are too strong for that to make it a good defensive typing outside of on super dedicated walls. Overall, I think the biggest problem is just that what it walls are the things most likely to be free to carry coverage for it.
Haha maybe it would be more popular then ninetales.
It's pretty nice that Fairy/Ghost has virtually unresistant coverage (Normal/Fire Litleo is the only one). Shame no Pokemon has that dual STAB yet...
Make it happen, GF. Do it. Immune to Dragon, Ground, & Fighting; neutral to Pursuit; and x4 resists U-Turn. Please, GF.
But as for type coverage, you have to wonder what Pokemon will use Fairy attacks. I mean would Gengar give up Focus Blast or another slot for the possibly more accurate Moonblast (just an example) if it gets it? It hits Dark-types, Terrakion/Keldeo, and Dragons Super Effectively. It's kind of like Ice and Fighting wrapped into one typing, which I think has a lot of merit over options Pokemon currently run like HP Ice.
It completely depends on what learns Fairy moves, but Pokemon like Venusaur could really benefit from it. Clear the field of Fire-types and a set of Giga Drain, HP Fire, and Moonblast covers everything else. The ability to run HP Fire and still have something to dispatch Dragons is something that a lot of Pokemon need. Additionally, while there are very few OU-worthy Dark-types, a Fairy move tossed Tyranitar's way would help it take out Fighting-types and Dragon-types which was something that cost two move-slots before; any thing that wants to switch-in on Tyranitar Crunch just gets crippled by "Fairy Punch" or something.
So far, everyone's been shedding a tear for Ice-types not getting anything or Dragons getting a decent counter, but I feel like the real victim here are Psychic-types. Fairy just swooped in and stole the 2 main reasons Psychic-types should exist: resistance to Fighting and Super Effective against Fighting. To add insult to injury, Fairy resists Bug & Dark AND hits Dark super effectively which were Psychic-type's crippling weaknesses: weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit and the inability to touch Dark-types. Psychic hits Poison Super Effectively and resists itself, but that's all it has over Fairy. Gen 5 was sort of Psychic's return to relavance, but Fairy came and wiped that all away in one fell swoop. Steel's nerf mainly effects the Steel/Psychic-types as well! If we get a fair number of good Fairy-types, (Gardevoir, Mawile, & Azumarril are a great start) Psychic is really going to struggle to find any use in the new metagame. Abilities and new Pokemon could change that for at least a few Pokemon, but we'll see how everything plays out in October.
Make it happen, GF. Do it. Immune to Dragon, Ground, & Fighting; neutral to Pursuit; and x4 resists U-Turn. Please, GF.
But as for type coverage, you have to wonder what Pokemon will use Fairy attacks. I mean would Gengar give up Focus Blast or another slot for the possibly more accurate Moonblast (just an example) if it gets it? It hits Dark-types, Terrakion/Keldeo, and Dragons Super Effectively. It's kind of like Ice and Fighting wrapped into one typing, which I think has a lot of merit over options Pokemon currently run like HP Ice.
It completely depends on what learns Fairy moves, but Pokemon like Venusaur could really benefit from it. Clear the field of Fire-types and a set of Giga Drain, HP Fire, and Moonblast covers everything else. The ability to run HP Fire and still have something to dispatch Dragons is something that a lot of Pokemon need. Additionally, while there are very few OU-worthy Dark-types, a Fairy move tossed Tyranitar's way would help it take out Fighting-types and Dragon-types which was something that cost two move-slots before; any thing that wants to switch-in on Tyranitar Crunch just gets crippled by "Fairy Punch" or something.
So far, everyone's been shedding a tear for Ice-types not getting anything or Dragons getting a decent counter, but I feel like the real victim here are Psychic-types. Fairy just swooped in and stole the 2 main reasons Psychic-types should exist: resistance to Fighting and Super Effective against Fighting. To add insult to injury, Fairy resists Bug & Dark AND hits Dark super effectively which were Psychic-type's crippling weaknesses: weakness to U-Turn and Pursuit and the inability to touch Dark-types. Psychic hits Poison Super Effectively and resists itself, but that's all it has over Fairy. Gen 5 was sort of Psychic's return to relavance, but Fairy came and wiped that all away in one fell swoop. Steel's nerf mainly effects the Steel/Psychic-types as well! If we get a fair number of good Fairy-types, (Gardevoir, Mawile, & Azumarril are a great start) Psychic is really going to struggle to find any use in the new metagame. Abilities and new Pokemon could change that for at least a few Pokemon, but we'll see how everything plays out in October.
Jas, you are just arguing for the sake of it. Gardevoir will wall even Specs Latios(I ran the calcs). Mega Mawile probably ohkos with Sucker Punch. Azumarill will beat it.
And then the predictable mons that are unconfirmed such as scarf fairy Mismagius, Clefable and Milotic will all beat Latios as well.
NONE of these have Mantine's bulk, so I don't see your point. Is it that mono fairy is lackluster? Well duh, mono anything is lackluster. Only a few mons make it work for them due to phenomenal stat distribution(Blissey, Jolteon).
Assuming there are no OU worthy Fairies (either they're all Uber or really sub-par stat wise) I feel like HP Fairy (assuming HP still works like it does now) or normal Fairy moves will be used mostly for coverage. A move that can hit Fighting, Dragon and Dark types is amazing for coverage.
I also feel like Ice is almost outclassed. Grass is still average defensively, most ground and flying types have a second type where a weakness can be abused and Dragons are now taken out by Fairies. Ice could end up like Fire, Grass or to a point Ghost type moves where you only use it for STAB, filler coverage or to hit something specific with a x4 weakness
I also feel like Ice is almost outclassed. Grass is still average defensively, most ground and flying types have a second type where a weakness can be abused and Dragons are now taken out by Fairies. Ice could end up like Fire, Grass or to a point Ghost type moves where you only use it for STAB, filler coverage or to hit something specific with a x4 weakness
I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm arguing because I think people (like they always do when something new comes out) are vastly overestimating Fairy. I don't think it will be bad, but the metagame is not just going to stagnate at what it is now with Pokemon running exactly the same sets and letting Fairy types wall them. Things will adapt, and I don't think the defensive capabilities of fairy will be anything all that special once they do.
Also, fwiw, (while I disagree that Mismagius or Milotic are likely to be fairy in the first place), almost none of the possible fairies wall Latios. Psyshock screws most things up, except Gardevoir and maybe physically defensive Milotic (and Latios can very easily run a special coverage move to beat it anyways). And even Gardevoir needs defensive investment to avoid being two shot by a neutral hitting coverage move (or Psyshock) from LO or Specs Latios. Simply put, Dragons are strong as hell, and while I am not saying good fairies won't exist, there will not be as many good fairies as good dragons, and it will take a lot more than the typing itself and a good member or two to put a stop to them.
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HP is for coverage; ideally 4x coverage due to its low base power. As it stands, HP Ice is effective against more pokemon than HP Fairy. That may change with the release of new pokemon but for Fairy to outdo Ice (which will be tough, because of what Ice does to Dragonite/Salamence/Garchomp), there needs to be a decent influx of 4x Fairy weak pokemon. Dragon/Fighting, Fighting/Dark, and Dark/Dragon are the only candidates. So far, only three of those pokemon exist and only Hydreigon is particularly threatening. I'll stick with ice.
All you say is that if Fairy-types don't get matched with good secondary types they won't be anything special. And this is true for any good defensive typing we have. What matters is that Fairy-type is an inherently good defensive typing for the current OU metagame. If we will get Fairy-types with good stats, moves, abilities, and secondary typing to make this typing worth it is another discussion, but you saying that Fairy's defensive abilities are being overestimated is both wrong and without any reasoning.
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