Why are you bringing up how well kyurem black does in ubers and how high he is ranked in ou viability thread when this has no relevance to its brokeness? Since when is maximizing sp atk and speed ''spreading evs around''? He doesnt need atk invesment, he hits 376 which is as high as adamant 252 gyarados. Average bulk? He is bulkier than freaking ferrothorn. Mediocre coverage? Since when is mixed bolt beam coverage+ground average?
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Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?
- Thread starter Gary
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Honestly, if anyone is still using the movepool argument at this point, they should just be redirected to this post. Like you mentioned, what does Kyurem-B really NEED in its movepool other than a physical Ice-type move? A boosting move would be nice, but really, this is the only thing that Kyurem-B really wishes it had. To tell you the truth, Kyurem-B has almost everything it could possibly ever need outside of a physical Ice-type move. But then again, why is this such a bad thing anyway? With its above average SpA, Kyurem-B can take advantage of its already titanic physical attack and forgo some EVs to pump up its lower SpA. All it really needs is Fusion Bolt and a Dragon-type STAB, and even then it really doesn't NEED it. I find it funny that its Mixed sets are considered more dangerous then its physical sets, yet people are complaining that having to use moves like Ice Beam, Earth Power, and Hidden Power Fire is what is making Kyurem-B less of a threat then it actually could be due to its lackluster movepool. So with that logic, the sets that are raising eyebrows are actually the sets that don't take much advantage of its 170 base Attack stat, but that's what makes Kyurem-B not as good?
So all in all, I don't really see a reason to use the barren movepool argument anymore. Kyurem-B has everything it could possibly want in its special movepool, and like other posters have mentioned, Kyurem-B really doesn't mind not fully investing in Attack. It's so dangerous because it's able to attack from both sides of the spectrum, not limited to just one. That's why this argument is flawed. Kyurem-B is made better by taking advantage of its special movepool, so it really doesn't need to try and compensate for its lack of a physical movepool, when it already has a good Dragon-type STAB and something to hit bulky Water-types with.
To tell you the truth, I think Mixed Kyurem-B would STILL be considered an overall better set then its physical set if Kyurem-B got Ice Punch or Icicle Crash. The Mixed sets are deemed uncounterable, and even with Ice Punch, the physical sets could STILL be countered by something. Mixed sets would always be superior in my eyes. The versatility is just too hard to pass up.
I was talking about its movepool, not the pokemon itself.
A lot of Pokemon have sets that are deemed 'uncounterable'. As a matter of fact, most good wallbreakers in OU should rightfully be 'uncounterable'. (EX: Garchomp, Terrakion, Hydreigon). Hydreigon alone invalidates the argument that a strong wallbreaker that can defeat almost every Pokemon in the game switching in with its myriad of options is the least bit overpowering. Hydreigon is let down by its speed and common weaknesses, which allows a fair number of Pokemon in OU to check it. Kyurem-B suffers from the same issue. For all of its defenses, it is still quite easily swept past by many offensive Pokemon in OU.
The movepool argument has some merit. Its only safe physical attacks to use are Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt and neither moves can defeat his checks on the switch. STAB Ice Beam and Earth Power coming from 120 base Sp. Attack are very respectable, and allow Kyurem to remedy some, but not all of the holes in its offensive game. Unlike OU's tried and true powerhouses, Kyurem-B has no viable boosting moves whatsoever, meaning that no matter what, you are stuck with the same offensive stats that many other Pokemon have the option to boost with the likes of Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Quiver Dance. With its unimpressive speed and exploitable weaknesses to overcome, this is definitely a problem.
Also, with its only standout traits being supreme bulk (shared with Kyurem, mind you) and a gigantic Attack stat, don't you find it strange that an allegedly bannable Pokemon is stuck covering many contingencies (SR + Spikes weakness, lackluster physical movepool forcing it to go mixed, a large number of checks) that other offensive simply don't have? Kyurem-B is definitely competent in OU at what is does, but I think people here are trying to force an issue that simply doesn't exist. Kyurem-B is a victim of the 'newcomer' syndrome and nothing more - if you're going to take issue with him, you'll first have to address the old dogs who are quite resoundingly better than he is.
The movepool argument has some merit. Its only safe physical attacks to use are Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt and neither moves can defeat his checks on the switch. STAB Ice Beam and Earth Power coming from 120 base Sp. Attack are very respectable, and allow Kyurem to remedy some, but not all of the holes in its offensive game. Unlike OU's tried and true powerhouses, Kyurem-B has no viable boosting moves whatsoever, meaning that no matter what, you are stuck with the same offensive stats that many other Pokemon have the option to boost with the likes of Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, and Quiver Dance. With its unimpressive speed and exploitable weaknesses to overcome, this is definitely a problem.
Also, with its only standout traits being supreme bulk (shared with Kyurem, mind you) and a gigantic Attack stat, don't you find it strange that an allegedly bannable Pokemon is stuck covering many contingencies (SR + Spikes weakness, lackluster physical movepool forcing it to go mixed, a large number of checks) that other offensive simply don't have? Kyurem-B is definitely competent in OU at what is does, but I think people here are trying to force an issue that simply doesn't exist. Kyurem-B is a victim of the 'newcomer' syndrome and nothing more - if you're going to take issue with him, you'll first have to address the old dogs who are quite resoundingly better than he is.
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Alright, this is why people want Kyurem-B banned.
What's the highest non-uber attack? Kyurem, at 170.. What's the second highest attack in the entire game? Kyurem, at 170.
Okay. Now, what's the second highest non uber attack? 165, belonging to Rampardos which dwells in PU.
The second highest OU attack stat is that of Haxorus, which is 147, 23 points less.
Movepool or typing are not excuses when you have the second highest BST our of all 649 pokemon.
Let's take a look at Metagross' Smogon overview.
Four shortcomings. A lot of these are things that Kyurem-B has in common with. Meh typing? Check.Meh speed? Check. Weak to common STAB moves? Check.
I repeat my post from last time. Kyurem-W has the same typing, same stats (def/spD and atk/spA switched) but the ONLY thing it will have over Kyurem-B is the better movepool. I use Kyurem-B in Ubers so much.
I don't mean to start an argument over this kind of thing but that's kind of the point of the thread, so feel free to disagree with my opinion.
What's the highest non-uber attack? Kyurem, at 170.. What's the second highest attack in the entire game? Kyurem, at 170.
Okay. Now, what's the second highest non uber attack? 165, belonging to Rampardos which dwells in PU.
The second highest OU attack stat is that of Haxorus, which is 147, 23 points less.
Movepool or typing are not excuses when you have the second highest BST our of all 649 pokemon.
Let's take a look at Metagross' Smogon overview.
Four shortcomings. A lot of these are things that Kyurem-B has in common with. Meh typing? Check.Meh speed? Check. Weak to common STAB moves? Check.
I repeat my post from last time. Kyurem-W has the same typing, same stats (def/spD and atk/spA switched) but the ONLY thing it will have over Kyurem-B is the better movepool. I use Kyurem-B in Ubers so much.
I don't mean to start an argument over this kind of thing but that's kind of the point of the thread, so feel free to disagree with my opinion.
Just saying, I completely agree with your point, but Gyarados also has 6 analyses, and Jirachi has 7
The stats, man. Kyurem-Black is faster and more powerful than Metagross. If you were to multiply their HP by their Defenses, you'd also find that Kyurem-Black is bulkier than Metagross. Why are you comparing Kyurem-Black to a niche-less pokemon with all-around worse stats that should've dropped to UU a long time ago?
Secondly, Kyurem-White and Kyurem-Black share a movepool for the most part. The advantage that Kyurem-White has is that it's movepool favors it's 170 Special Attack state while Black's movepool mostly compliments it's lower 120 Special Attack.
Also I'm not sure why my other post was deleted because I think it's a good point to make that Keldeo, a 2-time suspect has a worse movepool than Kyurem-Black which goes to show that having a poor movepool is a flaw that can easily be overcome. IMO, Kyurem-B's movepool is what edges it out of being a blatant Uber. Can you imagine if Kyurem-B had Physical Ice STAB or good boosting moves?
Seriously, this has been bugging me for such a long time. It has an amazing 120 Special Attack stat, which is so often overlooked and reserved for just Ice Beam, yet the Mixed set you listed (Which might I add Outrage < Dragon Claw) is phenomenal. It has a measly ten stat difference in SpA with Latios, a very common Dragon-Type. I still don't see how its movepool is bland, let's look at some moves it has that can be considered "worthwhile"
- Roost
- Stone Edge (Coverage if you are desperate to defeat Fire-Types that get destroyed by Outrage anyways)
- Dragon Claw
- Dragon Pulse
- Dragon Tail (Support set)
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Blizzard
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power
- Focus Blast
- Return/Frustration
- Hone Claws (Hey, you wanna boost that attack, go ahead)
- Dual Screens (Even more support)
- Payback (Idk, use to destroy Ghosts)
- Shadow Claw
- Zen Headbutt
- Sleep Talk (Counter that nasty Spore)
- Substitute (Block status)
- Rock Slide (For those worried about Stone Edge missing)
- All the weathers (With the exception of Sandstorm, but who would even use that)
- Freeze Shock (I guess you could use as a gimmick, it is it's only Physical Ice Move)
- Safeguard (Very gimmicky, but could be used to support, or if you don't want to use Substitute)
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That list looks like it was pulled out of your ass, no offense. Dragon Pulse? Rock Slide? Flash Cannon? Shadow Claw? Shadow Ball? Do people really run these? O_O Is that even VIABLE? Everything gets Toxic / Protect so that's redundant to mention.
Why would you run Safeguard over Substitute? Pray tell.
Why would you run Safeguard over Substitute? Pray tell.
Oh that is true for the Toxic/protect. I will delete those. And, yes, I have seen them used, maybe not Flash Cannon or Shadow Ball, which I will remove also, but the others one will stick. Dragon Pulse provides a nice Special-STAB coming off of 120 SpA, why wouldn't it be added? Rock Slide,as I mentioned, is only used if you are paranoid and still argue Power vs. Accuracy. Shadow Claw is another coverage move that could be used. Key word: COULD. Should it be used? Meh, probably not. But hey, it gets it. Also, how about the other moves I listed, more than people give it credit for.
Ok, how about using a fully Special-Set which, while not common, may be used to catch some opponents off guard and have a nice surprise factor. Here it is:
Kyurem-Black @ Expert Belt / Life Orb / Choice Specs
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Draco Meteor / Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Dragon Pulse / Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Earth Power
While this set is inferior by a ton to say a mixed set or a fully physical set, it still could be used to capitalize on its above average Special Attack. This set is mainly for surprise factor and is outclassed by its counterpart in Ubers, but since this is OU, I will not bring up that Discussion. Yeah, basically this set can be used a sort of gimmick and surprising set.
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True, I guess you could use Outrage to make it a Mixed set. Kyurem is better for pure-special though.
@クレセリア: I call bullshit on that. The only viable options Kyurem-B has are:
If you're using any other move, you're probably using an extremely shitty set.
- On the physical side: Outrage, Dragon Claw, Fusion Bolt
- On the special side: Draco Meteor, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, Earth Power, HP Fire (Blizzard if you're running Hail)
- Support moves: Substitute, Roost, Hone Claws, Dragon Tail
If you're using any other move, you're probably using an extremely shitty set.
No, you aren't. Let's see, he gets Dual Screens, which is a good support move, gets Safeguard another support move, gets many other coverage moves. Like Focus Blast, usable on Kyurem-W, but for some reason not on Kyurem-B?
While I agree with you that no one should ever use shadow ball and the likes on Kyub, them being viable isn`t the point he`s trying to make. If a pokemon with 120 base sp. attack doesn`t use a STAB Dragon Pulse, it means it has better options (which it has). This only stresses that Kyub has everything he needs. Gary explained this very well in his post, btw.
I agree that it has everything it needs (hell I just approved suspecting it!) but that's no reason to over exaggerate it's movepool that list had a lot of things that should not have been mentioned (Flash Cannon really?). Like you said, it has better options, which was my point.
EDIT: Also, give a look at Plooper's post; it's spot on.
EDIT: Also, give a look at Plooper's post; it's spot on.
This is the point I am trying to make, it doesn't just have like seven good moves. It has a plethora of moves it CAN use. Should it? Probably not. But you can expand further if you just look beyond what is the norm.
Nope. You just looked at Kyurem-B's movepool and pretty much listed all moves it learns. The majority of those moves are flat-out stupid on Kyurem-B. If you're using Safeguard, Dual Screens, Payback/Return/Rock Slide/Flash Cannon/Shadow Claw etc on Kyurem-B, you are using a shitty set. My point stands.
I already listed Focus Blast.
Kyurem-B has enough tools to function, sure. I'm just saying that you're listing a bunch of shitty moves and saying Kyurem has "more (options) than people give it credit for", which is obviously not the case.
But you're picking out the shittiest moves I listed. Read above your post, they shouldn't be used, yet if you want to for more coverage you can. Like how you say Dual Screens is shit, yet I have seen Terrakion using HP [Ice], both Gimmicky and used for a specific reason. They are nothing alike, yet they are the same at one time. Gimmicky and shouldn't really be used unless you are stupid, yet you can, if you'd like to. Not everything is set in stone, just because it doesn't have the best BP or the greatest coverage ≠ not usable at all.
I think you're trying to make Kyurem-B sound like it has an amazing movepool. It doesn't. It's decent at best.
Like I've said many times, the disadvantage, and the ONLY disadvantage, that makes Kyurem-B not Ubers is the movepool.
Also, I've never seen anyone use Draco Meteor on this thing before. I think its the perfect move for a mixed set, as you don't need to switch out due to your crippled SpA stat, as you can go back to physical attacks.
Here's a set around it:
Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw / Substitute
Like I've said many times, the disadvantage, and the ONLY disadvantage, that makes Kyurem-B not Ubers is the movepool.
Also, I've never seen anyone use Draco Meteor on this thing before. I think its the perfect move for a mixed set, as you don't need to switch out due to your crippled SpA stat, as you can go back to physical attacks.
Here's a set around it:
Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt / Dragon Claw / Substitute
To be 100% honest I am kind of OVER-Capitalizing, but it is just in the defense of it having a shitty movepool, which it doesn't. This set is good and all, but it absolutely needs Rapid Spin and Wish support, Life Orb+Sub+Stealth Rock add up very quickly, so it is kind of hard to use. But if you are good at predicting with Espeon, i guess this set could work.
While Kyurem-B doesn't have a large move pool, it gets Ice Beam and Earth Power. That is all it needs. Since it has Teravolt, the only Pokemon in the game that resists this combination of moves is Surskit (this isn't a joke). Plus, it hits for super-effective on many of OU's top Pokemon and thus dismantles a lot of defensive cores. The reason Kyurem-B is often regarded as better than Kyurem with these two special moves is because it is able to run a physical move as its additional coverage slot, e.g. Fusion Bolt. With little to no investment in its colossal attack stat, it is able to serve as a mixed sweeper with very good coverage for the metagame.
I'm not touching on whether or not its suspect worthy, but its movepool is not a hinderance.
I'm not touching on whether or not its suspect worthy, but its movepool is not a hinderance.
I'd also like to note that if you use these moves in conjunction with HP [Fire] and Dragon Claw or Outrage, you can easily destroy all of OU.
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