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Kyurem-B Discussion: Is it Broken?
- Thread starter Gary
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Well the thing about Hydreigon is that it really doesn't have to predict any of its common switch-ins, because pretty much every single one of them are smashed by another coverage move anyway. If Hydreigon Draco Meteors on the Ferrothorn switch-in, Ferrothorn risks being KOed by Fire Blast the following turn, even after the SpA drop. Same with Forretress and Skarmory. Heatran and Jirachi are destroyed by EQ as well. So I don't really see where you're coming from with Hydreigon being forced to predict constantly, because it actually doesn't have to at all. That's one of the biggest factors that still makes Mixed Hydreigon viable in this metagame, because it lacks any sort of reliable switch-in.
I don't really see where this MASSIVE prediction comes into play. Hydreigon doesn't need to predict shit.
It was the first Pokemon I thought of that Ice and Steel both hit neutrally. I can't be arsed to find something that all three, including Breloom, neutrally (is there anything that is?).
Well, Slowbro resists all 3:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 54-65 (13.74 - 16.53%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 54-65 (13.74 - 16.53%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 48-57 (12.21 - 14.5%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 45-53 (11.45 - 13.48%) -- 9HKO at best
So Kyurem-B's CB Ice Shard hits less than LO Breloom's Mach Punch.
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 54-65 (13.74 - 16.53%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 54-65 (13.74 - 16.53%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 48-57 (12.21 - 14.5%) -- 9HKO at best
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Slowbro: 45-53 (11.45 - 13.48%) -- 9HKO at best
So Kyurem-B's CB Ice Shard hits less than LO Breloom's Mach Punch.
Alternatively meloetta could've been used for calcs.
I couldn't call a Kyu-B Ice Shard "weak" as it's not really a huge difference from Scizor or LO loom while being a really good attack type. I'd help Kyu's versatility even moreso though in preventing other Dragons from easily checking it. That may be something that could push it over the edge.
I couldn't call a Kyu-B Ice Shard "weak" as it's not really a huge difference from Scizor or LO loom while being a really good attack type. I'd help Kyu's versatility even moreso though in preventing other Dragons from easily checking it. That may be something that could push it over the edge.
Sorry, I didn't mean it was weak, just that it's not really bringing anything to the table that hasn't been done before besides OHKOing Latios and Haxorus, for which Mamoswine needs Icicle Crash. It would help against revenge killers, but physically offensive sets will still find themselves being walled.
Ok, so I was using a stall team on the ladder just now. It was doing well, and then I ran into a substitute attacking Kyurem-B. It got in before I could get TS up, and proceeded to completely rape my team. It massacres stall, and the only thing you can do about it is run Chansey in a neutral weather, get TS up quickly and still have it kill 2-3 pokemon, or use Cresselia in the sun. There is almost nothing that can take 2 hits from it, and the best you can do is revenge it. Against stall, it also manages to easily make substitutes on a non-phazing pokemon, and then kill any member of your team you send out. IT is just ridiculous. Even a bad player can easily crush a stall team with the sub+3 attacks set. It is really scary.
Physically defensive Forretress:
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (95 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 186-222 (47.57 - 56.77%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 112-132 (31.63 - 37.28%) -- 96.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Forretress is 3HKO'd and it's slower, so it's only getting 1 hit in if it switches in.. You sacrificed your spinner and part of your defensive backbone for 50% on kyurem-B, when they didn't even predict anything, they just clicked the button they'll always be clicking.
Wish + CM Jirachi:
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Jirachi: 144-169 (35.64 - 41.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 188-224 (48.08 - 57.28%)
Jirachi is 3HKO'd and it's slower, so it's only getting 1 hit in if it switches in.. You sacrificed a wish supporter, a potential win condition and part of your defensive backbone for 50% on kyurem-B, when they didn't even predict anything, they just clicked the button they'll always be clicking.
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 112-132 (34.25 - 40.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 108-127 (27.62 - 32.48%)
You can't attack it, it isn't worth it, you do 30% and die. Your only options are whirlwinding, leaving your skarmory at 30% or so or roost stalling and hoping kyurem-b hits itself, which isn't neccesarily the most reliable way to deal with threats.. Thats while you risked switching into a fusion bolt, which would've crippled your skarmory or even killed it.
There's just not a single pokemon that's this free to just spam one move..
tl;dr: if you switch into anything that isn't called full hp ferrothorn, you're in a shitty situation, its a choice user that doesn't have to predict at all.
I know the mixed set is arguably more broken, but you guys are seriously underestimating the CB set's brokenness, it's always been the most terrifying thing for any of my teams to face, regardless of whether they're offensive or defensive.
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (95 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 186-222 (47.57 - 56.77%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 112-132 (31.63 - 37.28%) -- 96.85% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Forretress is 3HKO'd and it's slower, so it's only getting 1 hit in if it switches in.. You sacrificed your spinner and part of your defensive backbone for 50% on kyurem-B, when they didn't even predict anything, they just clicked the button they'll always be clicking.
Wish + CM Jirachi:
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Jirachi: 144-169 (35.64 - 41.83%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 188-224 (48.08 - 57.28%)
Jirachi is 3HKO'd and it's slower, so it's only getting 1 hit in if it switches in.. You sacrificed a wish supporter, a potential win condition and part of your defensive backbone for 50% on kyurem-B, when they didn't even predict anything, they just clicked the button they'll always be clicking.
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 112-132 (34.25 - 40.36%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 108-127 (27.62 - 32.48%)
You can't attack it, it isn't worth it, you do 30% and die. Your only options are whirlwinding, leaving your skarmory at 30% or so or roost stalling and hoping kyurem-b hits itself, which isn't neccesarily the most reliable way to deal with threats.. Thats while you risked switching into a fusion bolt, which would've crippled your skarmory or even killed it.
There's just not a single pokemon that's this free to just spam one move..
tl;dr: if you switch into anything that isn't called full hp ferrothorn, you're in a shitty situation, its a choice user that doesn't have to predict at all.
I know the mixed set is arguably more broken, but you guys are seriously underestimating the CB set's brokenness, it's always been the most terrifying thing for any of my teams to face, regardless of whether they're offensive or defensive.
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I agree with Spinda about CB being terrifying, but it usually isn't too bad for offensive teams which can usually outspeed/KO or outspeed/bring down to KO range, send in a second threat, and KO. With SR, offensive teams have many options to KO CB Kyurem. CB is horrific for Stall teams to face, while the Scarf set is a bitch for offensive teams.
What if the ferro user switchs out? Now youre at -2 and lost 20% health from life orb while not achieving anything. Hydreigon dependance on status reducing moves put it in a terrible situation everytime it mispredicts.
Wait so the Ferrothorn user can predict the Draco Meteor, and then switch out, but the Hydreigon user can't predict shit? Use a better argument please, I thought you would have learned by now how bad of an argument prediction is from the Keldeo suspect test. Anyway, please get back onto topic, why is Hydreigon even being discussed?
Hydreigon is at -2, ferrothorn doesnt have to predict anything. Just go to anything that inst weak to superpower. Also yeah enough discussing hydreigon, thats not really the point.
Man these last few pages have only been about Ice shard which it doesn't even get, and Hydreigon. CB calcs are great and all, but there isn't much point in comparing Kyurem-B in terms of raw power to Terrakion and Garchomp, which boast better speed/boosting moves. That's never going to be the reason people consider it to be broken. Pokemon hit harder based on the BP of their moves, not so much their attacking stats. (Kyurem-B does get Draco Meteor, Ice beam, Bolt Strike(lol), Earth Power, Focus Blast, and of course Outrage)
I feel that more defensive sets, like the Sub/Roost/Dtail/Ice Beam set (specially or physically defensive) are particularly dangerous against all teams but maybe not HO so much. 120/90/100 defenses are incredible on a pokemon that has the same attack as jolly Terrakion and Modest Starmie with zero offensive investment and a fully bulky spread! Stall teams can't break the substitutes, and can't even phaze quickly enough as 95 Speed is very fast against bulky stall teams. Even balanced teams struggle against bulky Kyurem-B, as once their hard hitting fighting type is gone, (or specs latios) they can't break subs and they get shuffled/stalled out to the point where every mon can be cleaned up by a sweeper. Checks can't even be switched in due to the threat of Dragon Tail which forces even more switches due to the threat of Ice Beam/Dragon Tail behind a Sub. CB Scizor fails to do more than 50% to physically defensive Kyurem-B who can easily Roost out a predicted Superpower, switch out at near full health if BP, or take the BP and Dragon Tail Scizor out, guaranteeing it comes in around 40% health next time if Spikes/SR are on the field while still forcing a potentially disadvantageous switch(don't forget, on top of all this, Kyurem-B will still be around 50% health) This pokemon functions so well with spikes/SR and worst of all, Toxic Spikes, I'm shocked by how easily it cleans up teams. SubRoost can PP stall out Gyro Ball, Stone Edge, and even 16 BP moves like CC if Toxic Spikes are on the field. With Toxic Spike support, Kyurem-B is actually rewarded for Sub/Roost. I think the combination of absurd bulk, terrific mixed attacking stats, and more than decent physical/special movepool(STAB Ice beam alone would be enough and its support movepool is incredible, end of story) make Kyurem-B a broken pokemon. Until it's banned, I'll take full advantage of all of this, and of course, the switches it forces.
edit: grammar
edit 2: and I haven't even talked about Sub/3 Attacks
edit 3: after talking with Spinda, I would have to concede that CB Outrage is ridiculously powerful and that there is a huge difference between it and CB Garchomp's Outrage, but in this offensive metagame,(offensive teams handle band better, stall plays around it) Scarf is usually better due to Kyurem-B's not so stellar 95 speed and its SR weakness. Too many pokemon can switch in and threaten to KO, many without SR. (OU pokemon (not listing UU) Garchomp, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Salamence, and Ferrothorn with some Atk all KO, while Scarftar, Keldeo, Scarfzone, Volcarona, Breloom, Scizor, Conkeldurr, Alakazam, Gengar, Infernape, Jirachi, Thundurus-T, Conkeldurr, Tornadus, Victini, and Scarf Landorus-T.
I feel that more defensive sets, like the Sub/Roost/Dtail/Ice Beam set (specially or physically defensive) are particularly dangerous against all teams but maybe not HO so much. 120/90/100 defenses are incredible on a pokemon that has the same attack as jolly Terrakion and Modest Starmie with zero offensive investment and a fully bulky spread! Stall teams can't break the substitutes, and can't even phaze quickly enough as 95 Speed is very fast against bulky stall teams. Even balanced teams struggle against bulky Kyurem-B, as once their hard hitting fighting type is gone, (or specs latios) they can't break subs and they get shuffled/stalled out to the point where every mon can be cleaned up by a sweeper. Checks can't even be switched in due to the threat of Dragon Tail which forces even more switches due to the threat of Ice Beam/Dragon Tail behind a Sub. CB Scizor fails to do more than 50% to physically defensive Kyurem-B who can easily Roost out a predicted Superpower, switch out at near full health if BP, or take the BP and Dragon Tail Scizor out, guaranteeing it comes in around 40% health next time if Spikes/SR are on the field while still forcing a potentially disadvantageous switch(don't forget, on top of all this, Kyurem-B will still be around 50% health) This pokemon functions so well with spikes/SR and worst of all, Toxic Spikes, I'm shocked by how easily it cleans up teams. SubRoost can PP stall out Gyro Ball, Stone Edge, and even 16 BP moves like CC if Toxic Spikes are on the field. With Toxic Spike support, Kyurem-B is actually rewarded for Sub/Roost. I think the combination of absurd bulk, terrific mixed attacking stats, and more than decent physical/special movepool(STAB Ice beam alone would be enough and its support movepool is incredible, end of story) make Kyurem-B a broken pokemon. Until it's banned, I'll take full advantage of all of this, and of course, the switches it forces.
edit: grammar
edit 2: and I haven't even talked about Sub/3 Attacks
edit 3: after talking with Spinda, I would have to concede that CB Outrage is ridiculously powerful and that there is a huge difference between it and CB Garchomp's Outrage, but in this offensive metagame,(offensive teams handle band better, stall plays around it) Scarf is usually better due to Kyurem-B's not so stellar 95 speed and its SR weakness. Too many pokemon can switch in and threaten to KO, many without SR. (OU pokemon (not listing UU) Garchomp, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Hydreigon, Salamence, and Ferrothorn with some Atk all KO, while Scarftar, Keldeo, Scarfzone, Volcarona, Breloom, Scizor, Conkeldurr, Alakazam, Gengar, Infernape, Jirachi, Thundurus-T, Conkeldurr, Tornadus, Victini, and Scarf Landorus-T.
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This thread is going in circles.
Kyurem-B is an excellent Pokemon. It boasts numerous advantages over its attacking brethren, including massive bulk and 170/120 offensive stats with moves like Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire, Roost, Substitute, Dragon Claw, Hone Claws, and Dragon Tail to utilize them. Any attempts to call this movepool bad are futile. Keldeo has less viable moves than it, yet we consider it top-tier OU. With this movepool, it can run numerous sets, among which are Sub Hone Claws Dragon Tail, Modest lure with Focus Blast, Scarf, Band, specially based mixed, physically based mixed, Roost 3 attacks, and Sub 3 attacks. With a Babiri or Chople Berry, it becomes the best SmashPass recipient in the game. It functions as a counter to non-Analytic Starmie, Rotom-W, and Jolteon, and is a great check to Water- and Electric-types in general. The most devastating set is generally regarded to be Sub 3 attacks. This set is the bane of stall, as it has the coverage and sheer power to break apart the bulkiest of Pokemon, forcing stall teams to adapt with Pokemon like Jirachi, bulky SD Scizor, Stoutland and Breloom. With a Sub up, offensive teams are hard pressed to defeat it without losing a Pokemon in the process. Just describing the Sub set ignores the revenge killing abilities of the Scarf set, lucrative power of the Band set, etc. Kyurem-B has the ability to wreck its checks with the switch of a single move, making it brutally difficult to deal with and unpredictable.
On the other hand, Kyurem-B also has its fair share of weaknesses; chiefly, a vulnerability to hazards. Its Ice typing leaves it weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Spikes. Toxic Spikes make it impossible for the Sub set to properly do its job. Kyurem-B is also weak to common priority, including Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom/Conkeldurr's Mach Punches. Weaknesses to common Fighting-, Rock-, and Dragon-type attacks limit its performance. The ever-common Jirachi is an excellent check to it, and with the most recent innovation -- a Shuca Berry -- Kyurem-B has a difficult time against it. As many Pokemon as Kyurem-B can beat, there numbers a sizable amount that it cannot hope to function in the presence of. Attacks like sun-boosted Fire-type attacks are too much, even for a Pokemon with such great bulk as Kyurem-B.
In summary, Kyurem-B is a top-tier, deadly threat. Arguing that would be futile. However, it has a number of flaws that somewhat limit its performance. Are they enough to counterbalance its sometimes overpowering strengths? That's the primary question I find needs to be addressed in this thread.
tl;dr focus on the important things, not random irrelevant stuff
Kyurem-B is an excellent Pokemon. It boasts numerous advantages over its attacking brethren, including massive bulk and 170/120 offensive stats with moves like Ice Beam, Draco Meteor, Outrage, Fusion Bolt, Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire, Roost, Substitute, Dragon Claw, Hone Claws, and Dragon Tail to utilize them. Any attempts to call this movepool bad are futile. Keldeo has less viable moves than it, yet we consider it top-tier OU. With this movepool, it can run numerous sets, among which are Sub Hone Claws Dragon Tail, Modest lure with Focus Blast, Scarf, Band, specially based mixed, physically based mixed, Roost 3 attacks, and Sub 3 attacks. With a Babiri or Chople Berry, it becomes the best SmashPass recipient in the game. It functions as a counter to non-Analytic Starmie, Rotom-W, and Jolteon, and is a great check to Water- and Electric-types in general. The most devastating set is generally regarded to be Sub 3 attacks. This set is the bane of stall, as it has the coverage and sheer power to break apart the bulkiest of Pokemon, forcing stall teams to adapt with Pokemon like Jirachi, bulky SD Scizor, Stoutland and Breloom. With a Sub up, offensive teams are hard pressed to defeat it without losing a Pokemon in the process. Just describing the Sub set ignores the revenge killing abilities of the Scarf set, lucrative power of the Band set, etc. Kyurem-B has the ability to wreck its checks with the switch of a single move, making it brutally difficult to deal with and unpredictable.
On the other hand, Kyurem-B also has its fair share of weaknesses; chiefly, a vulnerability to hazards. Its Ice typing leaves it weak to Stealth Rock and vulnerable to Spikes. Toxic Spikes make it impossible for the Sub set to properly do its job. Kyurem-B is also weak to common priority, including Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom/Conkeldurr's Mach Punches. Weaknesses to common Fighting-, Rock-, and Dragon-type attacks limit its performance. The ever-common Jirachi is an excellent check to it, and with the most recent innovation -- a Shuca Berry -- Kyurem-B has a difficult time against it. As many Pokemon as Kyurem-B can beat, there numbers a sizable amount that it cannot hope to function in the presence of. Attacks like sun-boosted Fire-type attacks are too much, even for a Pokemon with such great bulk as Kyurem-B.
In summary, Kyurem-B is a top-tier, deadly threat. Arguing that would be futile. However, it has a number of flaws that somewhat limit its performance. Are they enough to counterbalance its sometimes overpowering strengths? That's the primary question I find needs to be addressed in this thread.
tl;dr focus on the important things, not random irrelevant stuff
I think Kyube unfairly screws over Stall much more than it does offense. HO teams, for example, find it easy to revenge with nearly all relevant Scarfers (Latios, Teriyaki, Keldeo, Salamence, Jirachi), whereas stall teams have basically no way to stop it. However, if it gets in safely on a move that isn't SE and isn't super powerful, it can easily wreck stuff with the combination of its great bulk and power.
But the thing is those "flaws" that hinder Kyurem-B's performance is shared by the Uber Kyurem-W...
That's what I'm kinda trying to say. Kyu-W has a better movepool, that's the only thing you can actually say its superior in. Nothing else.
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Inferstrain, I posted neutrally on the little details we've argued to death. They are in no way related to Kyurem-W.
Kyurem-B has flaws, yes. But then again, so does every pokemon in the game. Kyurem-White is better than Kyurem-Black. However, Kyurem-Black is inferior to it for the sole reason that it lacks a great physical movepool, forcing it to go mixed. That's what I'm trying to say. They're not too different, it's just that Kyurem-White has a key advantage over it.
But the point of the thread is not who is better. It's if Kyurem-Black is too much for the OU metagame.
Then why did you bring this up in the first place? -_- But no seriously quit talking about Kyurem-W.
Considering all this comparison with Hydreigon, does anyone ever feel like you wish you were using Kyurem instead of Kyurem-B? This is assuming the usage of the Sub/Roost/DT/Ice Beam set, which a very thin consensus here seems to agree is the 'best' set. Kyurem-B has 10 more defensive, so it will take Gyro Balls, Mach Punches and Bullet Punches a little worse, and of course there's the 40 less base attack meaning Dragon Tail will do quite a bit less damage, but considering the purpose of the set, Pressure is such a good ability.
While Kyurem-B does hit a lot harder with Dragon Tail (Kyurem-B 0 Atk Dragon tail vs. 4 HP/0 Def Keldeo = 34% - 40% compared to Kyurem 0 Atk Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP/0 Def Keldeo: 25% - 29%), having Pressure can speed up the PP stalling process significantly. Not only that, but what Kyurem can do what Kyurem-B can't is stall out Keldeo with significantly more easy and a lot less risk. Sort of.
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kyurem: 49.33 - 58.59%
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kyurem-B: Secret Sword: 46.25 - 54.62%
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump in the rain vs. 252 HP / 200 Def+ Kyurem(-B): Hydro Pump: 52.64 - 62.11%
Secret Sword has 24pp. With Pressure, that cuts down the number of turns you need to not get hit by a crit while not behind a sub to 12. Without Sacred Sword, CS Keldeo is relatively useless against a team with either Kyurem or Kyurem-B, but particularly Kyurem, as it can quite easily take four Hydro Pumps in the rain while roosting off the damage, particularly with Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy.
I hope this isn't considered too off topic, but I think one of the things you have to consider when factoring in Kyurem-B's capabilities is that of its 'inferior' counterpart.
While Kyurem-B does hit a lot harder with Dragon Tail (Kyurem-B 0 Atk Dragon tail vs. 4 HP/0 Def Keldeo = 34% - 40% compared to Kyurem 0 Atk Dragon Tail vs. 4 HP/0 Def Keldeo: 25% - 29%), having Pressure can speed up the PP stalling process significantly. Not only that, but what Kyurem can do what Kyurem-B can't is stall out Keldeo with significantly more easy and a lot less risk. Sort of.
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kyurem: 49.33 - 58.59%
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Kyurem-B: Secret Sword: 46.25 - 54.62%
252 SpA / 252+ Spe Choice Scarf Keldeo Hydro Pump in the rain vs. 252 HP / 200 Def+ Kyurem(-B): Hydro Pump: 52.64 - 62.11%
Secret Sword has 24pp. With Pressure, that cuts down the number of turns you need to not get hit by a crit while not behind a sub to 12. Without Sacred Sword, CS Keldeo is relatively useless against a team with either Kyurem or Kyurem-B, but particularly Kyurem, as it can quite easily take four Hydro Pumps in the rain while roosting off the damage, particularly with Hydro Pump's shaky accuracy.
I hope this isn't considered too off topic, but I think one of the things you have to consider when factoring in Kyurem-B's capabilities is that of its 'inferior' counterpart.
Most players realize that Kyurem-C is still considered the better user of Sub Roost. I don't think any knowledgeable player would disagree with you on that. It's just a lot harder to fit on teams then Kyurem-B because its more stall oriented, whereas Kyurem-B excels on offensive teams, which are much more common.
But anyways, we need to seriously get back on topic here. The purpose of this thread isn't to compare Kyurem-B to other Dragons, like many users have been doing lately. No more talking about Hydreigon, Kyurem-W, Kyurem-C, etc. JUST Kyurem-B.
I feel like Kyurem-B is more intimidating on paper than it is in practice because of 170 base Attack and nasty STABs. Its Outrage and even its Dragon Claw really, really hurt. Not to mention it's bulkier than it should be and 120 base Special Attack compliments its base Attack really well.
But in matches, even with my goofy-weird teams (I'm a Crobat fanboy... don't hurt me), it never really poses as much of a threat as I expect. Sure, if you let it set up with Hone Claws or Sub, it can get a little scary if you don't have anything faster. But over a third of the metagame IS faster with super effective shots on it (no thanks to its defensively horrendous typing) and a lot of Pokemon below it speed-wise have super effective priority. Also, I can think of Pokemon who can set up that are just as scary if not scarier, and not all of them are even close to being top-tier threats (Haxorus w/ Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, Metagross with Agility, CM or TR Reuniclus)... Hone Claws just isn't that great of a set-up move, and Substitute... well, it's scary behind a sub, but even Pokemon like Toxicroak and regular Kyurem can set up shop and go to town when they're behind subs. Maybe not as immediately intimidating, but certainly they use subs well.
It absolutely punches holes in teams with Choice Band, Life Orb, or Expert Belt, but so do a lot of other Pokemon, and it doesn't even do so overwhelmingly. It can revenge kill with a Scarf, but there's things that are faster and not weak to all three entry hazards that can do the same. Its need to either split EV's on the mixed sets or forgo Attack for SpAttack (or vice versa) doesn't do it many favors. A very shallow USEABLE movepool makes it a bit predictable, and lacking physical Ice-STAB is just one of several problems that keep it from being a broken force. Middling speed, lack of set-up options, defensive typing that is easily taken advantage of, and lack of coverage (okay, maybe it doesn't really NEED coverage with Dragon- and Ice-type STAB coming off of 170 Base Attack and 120 Base Special Attack) hurt it.
I think it's very good at what it does, and it deserves its place around A or A+ on the viability thread, but it's something for which most mindful battlers will be prepared. It has checks and counters. It CAN be played around, and it doesn't take an exorbitant amount of effort or team dedication to do so. It'll wreck your house once in a while, but I doubt there's an experienced battler in here that hasn't been mauled at least once by every offensive Pokemon in OU. When it's used well, it'll earn its keep on your team. When it's not, you'll get smashed. Seems like a pretty good standard for any Pokemon in any slot on your lineup.
Feels like a lot of these arguments are going around in circles >.<
But in matches, even with my goofy-weird teams (I'm a Crobat fanboy... don't hurt me), it never really poses as much of a threat as I expect. Sure, if you let it set up with Hone Claws or Sub, it can get a little scary if you don't have anything faster. But over a third of the metagame IS faster with super effective shots on it (no thanks to its defensively horrendous typing) and a lot of Pokemon below it speed-wise have super effective priority. Also, I can think of Pokemon who can set up that are just as scary if not scarier, and not all of them are even close to being top-tier threats (Haxorus w/ Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, Metagross with Agility, CM or TR Reuniclus)... Hone Claws just isn't that great of a set-up move, and Substitute... well, it's scary behind a sub, but even Pokemon like Toxicroak and regular Kyurem can set up shop and go to town when they're behind subs. Maybe not as immediately intimidating, but certainly they use subs well.
It absolutely punches holes in teams with Choice Band, Life Orb, or Expert Belt, but so do a lot of other Pokemon, and it doesn't even do so overwhelmingly. It can revenge kill with a Scarf, but there's things that are faster and not weak to all three entry hazards that can do the same. Its need to either split EV's on the mixed sets or forgo Attack for SpAttack (or vice versa) doesn't do it many favors. A very shallow USEABLE movepool makes it a bit predictable, and lacking physical Ice-STAB is just one of several problems that keep it from being a broken force. Middling speed, lack of set-up options, defensive typing that is easily taken advantage of, and lack of coverage (okay, maybe it doesn't really NEED coverage with Dragon- and Ice-type STAB coming off of 170 Base Attack and 120 Base Special Attack) hurt it.
I think it's very good at what it does, and it deserves its place around A or A+ on the viability thread, but it's something for which most mindful battlers will be prepared. It has checks and counters. It CAN be played around, and it doesn't take an exorbitant amount of effort or team dedication to do so. It'll wreck your house once in a while, but I doubt there's an experienced battler in here that hasn't been mauled at least once by every offensive Pokemon in OU. When it's used well, it'll earn its keep on your team. When it's not, you'll get smashed. Seems like a pretty good standard for any Pokemon in any slot on your lineup.
Feels like a lot of these arguments are going around in circles >.<
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