Other Looking Ahead to Gen VI Mark II (SEE POSTS #818 & #858)

[Super Mario Bro]

@ ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I would definitely wage that bulky Pokes like Blissey, Celebi, Jirachi, Milotic, Uxie and Cresselia are going to be fairies, since it would make a whole lot of sense from a flavor perspective; don't lose hope in that regard. As for bulky Fairies that have been revealed so far, don't forget about Clefable, who resists the previously perfect Dark-Fighting coverage, and has respectable bulk to boot.

 

[termi]

I mean come on, only 3 of the fairies from Gen 6 have a secondary typing and all of them are single stage with what will appear to be low stats (Klefki, Dedenne, and Carbink). None of the fairies so far have shown very high defensive stats either.

I guess a 50/150/150 bulk is pretty underwhelming, yeah

Serebii just confirmed that Talonflame gets a new ability called "Fast Wings" which gives flying type moves priority. This means Brave Bird is going to be one of the strongest priority moves (Damage wise) in the game

I knew there had to be a catch, it sucked so bad. But then again, it's got a base speed of 130, is priority really that important? I guess it can now bypass scarfers and pranksters and such but still, underwhelming offenses hold it back.

 

[Kejmur]

Man I am really disappointed that there have been very few fairies with secondary typings. I mean come on, only 3 of the fairies from Gen 6 have a secondary typing and all of them are single stage with what will appear to be low stats (Klefki, Dedenne, and Carbink). None of the fairies so far have shown very high defensive stats either. This pretty much rules out the possibility to tone down the power of certain attackers in OU because they don't resist a secondary STAB / the usual pairings to Fighting or Dragon moves. For example, we don't have any Fairies that can resist the common Rock / Fighting combo or Dragon / Fire / Ground. I mean seriously Game Freak throw me a bone with a Ground / Fairy, which would follow the pattern of Ground types having high defensive stats. How about a Grass / Fairy that IS NOT Whimsicott with actual defensive stats so Breloom and Keldeo don't run through the tier with Pursuit support?

For example, looking at all the fairies now, Garchomp can still run through all of them with a SD set with coverage of Dragon Claw + Earthquake (still stings Steel-types) + Stone Edge. A +2 STAB EQ with no resist and an only decent defense stat is still going to really hurt. Same with Terrakion with SD + Close Combat + Stone Edge; all of them are just smashed by Stone Edge.

Seriously if the epitome of bulk for the Fairy-type is Azumarill, Togekiss (SR weak :( ), and Carbink then this gen is just going to be the same shit just having a tiny bit more trouble spamming high-power, choiced Fighting and Dragon moves. The pure fairies aren't going to do shit unless they get some good defensive stats to back them up and some palatable resists to the types that compliment Dragon and Fighting attacks. With more Dragons coming our way and with little fairies with secondary typings to stop them, it isn't looking to bright from my perspective.

I somewhat agree with your examples on Fairies, but you forgot to mention Intimidate Granbull, which has really good movepool (HEAL BELL, T-Wave, Elemental Punches, Good Base Attack, etc.) and his physical bulk with Intimidate is actually good, so there's one. And if pure existance of Fairies will force Dragons to run Dragon Claw instead of Outrage, than suddenly stuff like Hippowdon or Swampert can suddenly deal with those dragons, as they suddenly hit for much, much less damage. As long as Fairies forced dragons to not use Outrage as 'GG I just one click to break sh*t up' for just really late game sweep (or force it out at all) then defensive teams will sigh with massive relieve. Dragon Claw Garchomp is much MUCH easier to stop than Outrage one. It's the same in case of Salamence, Dragonite, Haxorus, etc. I may even add to this Avalugg, which survive two hits from Adamant Choice Band Outrage from Haxorus WITH SR UP and two Adamant Choice Band Outrages from KYUREM-B without SR up 100% of time as well and +2 YacheBerry Garchomp Outrage which can't 2HKO Avalugg back without SR up, than imagine how easily Avalugg will stop those with Dragon Claw up. Some interesting additions means that Dragon should be easier to stop, don't be so pessimistic.

Serebii just confirmed that Talonflame gets a new ability called "Fast Wings" which gives flying type moves priority. This means Brave Bird is going to be one of the strongest priority moves (Damage wise) in the game

Yeah, I saw it and if it really works this way, then I need to say Talonflame looks at least decent now. Although this typing is still damn horrible especially with such low bulk (x4 weak x_X) and his attack look pretty damn low, but if you can Swords Dance, +2 Priority Brave Bird looks suddenly look strong. In lower tiers he may wreck havoc, but his stats still look underwhelming for a tier like OU.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Probably a stupid question, but why exactly would fairy types force Dragons to not use Outrage? Unless I am mistaken, if a move like Outrage fails to hit, one can then switch out, so there really isn't much of a reason not to use it. IDK though, I never tried to use Thrash on a Ghost type.

 

[Spenstar]

So according to Serebii, these are a thing:

Aroma Veil
Bulletproof
Grass Pelt
Magician
Symbiosis

Goodra's speed-lowering ability is Gooey, and Talonflame's priority ability is Gale Wings. But what about the rest of these...?

 

[R_N]

So according to Serebii, these are a thing:

Aroma Veil
Bulletproof
Grass Pelt
Magician
Symbiosis

Goodra's speed-lowering ability is Gooey, and Talonflame's priority ability is Gale Wings. But what about the rest of these...?

I bet Aroma Veil is Aromatisse's hidden ability. Maybe just passively prevents status effects?

 

[Coogrr]

Does anyone else think that Azumarill is going to result in a huge decline in Keldeo usage if it gets a good physical fairy move?

 

[Spenstar]

Does anyone else think that Azumarill is going to result in a huge decline in Keldeo usage if it gets a good physical fairy move?

Azumarill is all but confirmed to know Play Rough, 90 BP 90 Acc physical fairy move. In other words, yes, big time. HP Electric won't even help too much

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I somewhat agree with your examples on Fairies, but you forgot to mention Intimidate Granbull, which has really good movepool (HEAL BELL, T-Wave, Elemental Punches, Good Base Attack, etc.) and his physical bulk with Intimidate is actually good, so there's one. And if pure existance of Fairies will force Dragons to run Dragon Claw instead of Outrage, than suddenly stuff like Hippowdon or Swampert can suddenly deal with those dragons, as they suddenly hit for much, much less damage. As long as Fairies forced dragons to not use Outrage as 'GG I just one click to break sh*t up' for just really late game sweep (or force it out at all) then defensive teams will sigh with massive relieve. Dragon Claw Garchomp is much MUCH easier to stop than Outrage one. It's the same in case of Salamence, Dragonite, Haxorus, etc. I may even add to this Avalugg, which survive two hits from Adamant Choice Band Outrage from Haxorus WITH SR UP and two Adamant Choice Band Outrages from KYUREM-B without SR up 100% of time as well and +2 YacheBerry Garchomp Outrage which can't 2HKO Avalugg back without SR up, than imagine how easily Avalugg will stop those with Dragon Claw up. Some interesting additions means that Dragon should be easier to stop, don't be so pessimistic.

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 165-195 (39.85 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (105 HP, 182 Def)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 184-217 (44.44 - 52.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (105 HP, 182 Def)
Keep in mind that it doesnt have recover. Theres no doubt that dragons got more checks this gen, but very few of them are reliable. Granbull is only a check for physical dragons, sylveon is only a check for special dragons (it actually loses to psychock latiwns though), whimsicott is too frail and weak to common fire coverage moves, etc. Also yeah, i dont see why outrage would stop being used. If a fairy comes in you can simply switch out.

 

[Ves]

Keep in mind that it doesnt have recover.

Actually, it does.

 

[Spenstar]

Actually, it does.

Could this be the physical blissey we've been looking for?

 

[Coogrr]

Azumarill is all but confirmed to know Play Rough, 90 BP 90 Acc physical fairy move. In other words, yes, big time. HP Electric won't even help too much

Yeah, I thought it would probably learn play rough. To not die to Azumarill, Keldeo will need to run HP electric or grass and predict the switch in.

 

[Atlaus]

Does Togekiss get Play Rough? STAB Serene Grace Fairy move that lowers attack sounds really lol worthy.

 

[Soda]

Probably a stupid question, but why exactly would fairy types force Dragons to not use Outrage? Unless I am mistaken, if a move like Outrage fails to hit, one can then switch out, so there really isn't much of a reason not to use it. IDK though, I never tried to use Thrash on a Ghost type.

If it hits once and then a Fairy is switched in, maybe it still has to use it 1-2 more times? I see your point though. Many Dragons do use Choice sets though and those will be much harder to use with fairies around. However good news for Dragons, apparently Draco Meteor's BP wasn't nerfed.

Fairies would be way too overwhelming if they were all super good. I think people are forgetting the possibility that Cresselia and Blissey might become fairies. That would be a HUGE deal. Cresselia instantly becomes immune to both of Garchomp's STABS. Also, Cresselia likely won't have as much trouble using Moonlight (as unreliable as it is) since 80% of battles won't be constant rain. I really don't think this generation will be more of the same. Weather is certainly relatively done for. It will be used more than in Gen 4, but exponentially less than Gen 5. Dragons might not be knocked down quite as hard as we expected, but do we really want that anyway? Dragons are pretty awesome. :P

Also in love with Goodra's ability.

 

[ryan]

Does anyone else think that Azumarill is going to result in a huge decline in Keldeo usage if it gets a good physical fairy move?

On top of Fairy-types to screw over Keldeo (among other Fighting-types), the Hidden Power, Hydro Pump, and Drizzle nerfs are going to screw with Keldeo. It's funny to see such a top threat in OU from BW is getting nerfed so much in XY. It might still be a top threat, but I have my doubts.

 

[Cowtao]

On top of Fairy-types to screw over Keldeo (among other Fighting-types), the Hidden Power, Hydro Pump, and Drizzle nerfs are going to screw with Keldeo. It's funny to see such a top threat in OU from BW is getting nerfed so much in XY. It might still be a top threat, but I have my doubts.

I could see it still being a threat mainly because of it's already impressive stats. He also doesn't need Hydro Pump or Hidden Power if he is running something like a Sub + Calm Mind set to sweep. Only fault is that now Keldeo is completely walled by Jellicent. owo

 

[Kejmur]

Probably a stupid question, but why exactly would fairy types force Dragons to not use Outrage? Unless I am mistaken, if a move like Outrage fails to hit, one can then switch out, so there really isn't much of a reason not to use it. IDK though, I never tried to use Thrash on a Ghost type.

Yeah, I should be more clear, my bad. I mean if you run Dragon Dance/Swords Dance, if Fairies can force Dragons to choose weaker Dragon Claw (using both on those sets is not the best idea IMO), than stall suddenly have much easier time dealing with those, as Swords Dance/Dragon Dance sets bring the highest amount of power against them when they run Outrage. With Dragon Claw is looks much easier. It won't change a thing on Choice sets (as those can afford to run both Dragon Claw and Outrage) and things like Choice Band are much easier to handle as Fairies bring that crucial Dragon immunity, so you can't just spam early/mid game Outrage (and if someone suddenly got this lucky crit with Outrage, even physically bulky steel types took heavy damage, so the risk of using Outrage even early on wasn't that high against defensive teams, especially if you used this CB Dragon just to weaken steel type for another one) and just get decent damage no matter what it is. Technically it may mean now that Outrage is technically only late-game move, already making things much easier to handle, especially on Choice sets, as no one will use Outrage early/mid game on those and while you scout their sets early on with much less risk. This is what I meant - it will force Dragon users (at least on set-up sets) to use Dragon Claw IMO. Outrage just doesn't sound as reliable, and being forced into even later late game with Outrage means that you could take more damage from hazards if stall team had good amount of phazing going on. So yeah, as long as it forces much more conservative Outrage use (sometimes this mindless DD [or SD] Outrage combo on Dragon based HO teams early on just to weaken Steel type switch-in was really damn annoying and if they had lucky crit...), stall will have easier time with dragons. And BTW I'm not sure myself if Outrage locks in if you hit immunity, so I won't comment this, but this is something that should be checked ASAP IMO.

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 165-195 (39.85 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (105 HP, 182 Def)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 184-217 (44.44 - 52.41%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (105 HP, 182 Def)
Keep in mind that it doesnt have recover. Theres no doubt that dragons got more checks this gen, but very few of them are reliable. Granbull is only a check for physical dragons, sylveon is only a check for special dragons (it actually loses to psychock latiwns though), whimsicott is too frail and weak to common fire coverage moves, etc. Also yeah, i dont see why outrage would stop being used. If a fairy comes in you can simply switch out.

What kind of stats you include for Avalugg ? From what I remember last time his stats were estimated for 100/180 (maybe something changed, I didn't check his most fresh stats) and it looked like this. I checked them more then once, but maybe I made some mistake (as your calcs totally surprised me), although I would swear I didn't. I included Max HP/Max Def Positive Nature EVs.

Adamant Choice Band Haxorus Outrage

34.95% - 41.20%

Choice Band Outrage Adamant Kyurem-B (Well in this case it changes absolutely nothing with SR, so whatever)

41.90%- 49.54%

This is why I said it.

EDIT: Ahhh yeah I know what kind of mistake I made. Mixed Up HP Stat with Def Stat of the same base stat number, while looking on another Pokemon (100 Base HP is not equal to the same 100 Defense Stat) in one of Smogon analysis to check how much point you have with certain number of EVs. Checked again and yeah, ur right, it looks exactly as you posted. My mistake than.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I used 105 HP, 182 Def. It will always 2hko with stealth rock up.

 

[doughboy]

I guess a 50/150/150 bulk is pretty underwhelming, yeah

Robert Alfons You got to put a little more thought into it man. The stats are there, but the resists aren't. You need both to succeed.

Rock / Fairy
Weakness: Ground, Water, Grass, Steel
Resist: Normal, Fire, Flying, Bug, Dark
Immunity: Dragon

Carbink doesn't have any resists to the attacking types that are (actually) common as STAB's to OU sweepers outside of its immunity to Dragon. I'll give you Fire for Heatran and Volcarona. Every single physical Dragon in OU has Earthquake listed as coverage. The two special Dragons of OU: Latias and Latios, both use Surf on their attacking sets. Kyurem-B is mixed. Hydreigon, the least use Dragon of them all (seriously no one really uses it at 3-4% usage iirc on the 1850 stats) doesn't use surf or Earth Power commonly, but it can viably use it.

Hide

Physical Dragons:
All calcs with physical carbink. Except for Kyurem-B because it runs mixed sets. In Kube's case it is mix and match between physical and special carbink.

Garchomp:

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 176-210 (57.89 - 69.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 229-273 (75.32 - 89.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Dragonite:
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 198-234 (65.13 - 76.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 134-158 (44.07 - 51.97%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Salamence:
252 Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 122-144 (40.13 - 47.36%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This means Carbink can not take any damage before it comes in to check DD Mence without a Life Orb.

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 159-187 (52.3 - 61.51%) -- 96.48% chance to 2HKO

What if it got a DD off?
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def (custom): 237-281 (77.96 - 92.43%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kyurem-B:
Specially based mixed vs Special Carbink:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 146-172 (48.02 - 56.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Specially Based mixed vs Physical Carbink:
252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 187-221 (61.51 - 72.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Physically Based mixed vs Special Carbink:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 134-159 (44.07 - 52.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Physically Based Mixed vs Physical Carbink
4 SpA Life Orb Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 109-130 (35.85 - 42.76%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Special Dragons:
All calcs with Special Carbink.

Latios:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 170-200 (55.92 - 65.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 146-174 (48.02 - 57.23%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 146-174 (48.02 - 57.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


252 SpA Expert Belt Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 134-161 (44.07 - 52.96%) -- 86.72% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Latias:
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 133-156 (43.75 - 51.31%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even Psyshock is doing a hefty chunk and with SR down a combo of Psyshock + Surf could KO.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def (custom): 107-126 (35.19 - 41.44%) -- 78.13% chance to 3HKO

Hydreigon:

Hydreigons run Modest natures, so they hate higher attacking stats than Latios' (383 vs 359). Because of that, they achieve the same KO's as Latios.

So as you can see, even with max defense, Carbink is still 2HKO'ed by every physical Dragon in OU, some without SR down. The special Dragons can 2HKO it too with SR down even when it uses a completely specially defensive set. So yeah, the defensive stats are there but the resists are not. Actually, I would say that Carbink's HP stat really let's it down. It plays a huge factor in its overall bulk. I did not include sand for the special dragons because of Sand Streams's reduced turn effect.

Super Mario Bro Yeah I am hoping for that really badly but it is waning because nothing has appeared about them yet. Although we probably won't know of some of those retypings because a. they have to be transferred through Pokemon Bank or b. we haven't ripped the game data yet. Miltoic's access to Cute charm gives me hope! BTW the Dark / Fighting combo is resisted by every Fairy, even the pure Fairies :p

 

[sidakarya]

About good fairies in OU: Remember that we still don't have a full list of fairy-types in X+Y, and there are still some potential retypes that we've not seen because they're not available except through Friend Safari. But yeah, I do agree they've been so far underwhelming: Togekiss seems like the only one guaranteed an OU spot (though to be fair, just having that means Dragons will have to choose to change up their movesets and be walled by Skarmory instead). This might have been as well deliberate, because dragons are supposed to be awesome (just not game-breaking) and Fairy has one of the best type-matchups in the game.

And about Outrage not being used as much, I think one of the reasons is that if Outrage knocks out something and you send out a fairy, it's free turn to be OHKO'd by Dazzling Gleam or worse, a free set up turn. Also you still get confusion hax if it ends on the second or third turn which is never a good thing.

 

[Haruno]

Assault VestAn item to be held by a Pokémon. This offensive vest raises Sp. Def but prevents the use of status moves.

Thoughts?

 

[silenced]

Uh.... Malamar has Contrary, so wouldn't it actually lower its Special Defense?

I think items don't work with contrary, only stats drops/increases as a result of attacks, or moves like sand attack and so on.

 

[Coogrr]

Assault VestAn item to be held by a Pokémon. This offensive vest raises Sp. Def but prevents the use of status moves.

Thoughts?

Not very many offensive pokemon who would want this because of the decrease in power over a life orb or choice item. Not very many walls who would appreciate the extra sp.def over passive regen from leftovers. Snorlax might like it, maybe jirachi if it uses body slam to spread paralysis instead. There might be a lot more uses that I'm just not thinking of right now, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[doughboy]

Assault VestAn item to be held by a Pokémon. This offensive vest raises Sp. Def but prevents the use of status moves.

Thoughts?

Assault Vest IMO is WAY better on TTar than the MegaStone actually. IIRC, the MegaStone for Tyranitar boosts its defense stat the most, which is the stat that Tyranitar focuses on the least in OU because all of its weaknesses are primarily physical attacks. You can save the MegaEvo for something more powerful. With Assult Vest, it can really put its specially defensive set to work as a Bulky Attacker. With Sandstream in play, it hits 738 Sp. Def! Look at this calc for max HP / max SpD+ with Assult Vest Tyranitar:

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 109-130 (26.98 - 32.17%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 102-120 (25.24 - 29.7%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 126-150 (31.18 - 37.12%) -- 92.43% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Latios is absolutely helpless. It needs a Choice Specs Grass Knot to possibly 3HKO Tyranitar. IMO it is actually a great item for bulky offensive teams. Snorlax is also another potential user.

 

[alexwolf]

I agree with TPDB, SpD Ttar would make for a great Assault Vest user. Some possible other users could be Rhyperior and Slowking, in their respective tiers, both of which would still have a way to prevent getting setup on (Dragon Tail), and Slowking also has Regenerator to make up for its lack of recovery. Great to see an actually good defensive item, although its use seems to be extremely limited (special tanks that can function without their non attacking moves).