Ladder Balanced Hackmons

[Adrian Marin]

How come Mega Evo's can't be used without mega-evolving in gen 6 custom games now? Not only does it make mega evo's not have your desired ability, it also makes them almost unviable (Mega Tyranitar might work if this change stays permanent) This really affects the general metagame, I found my self in a battle with a normal Aggron instead of a Mega Aggron, it almost cost me the match. Also, Pixelite and co are all bugged, they do not do anything right now.

 

[MJB]

How come Mega Evo's can't be used without mega-evolving in gen 6 custom games now? Not only does it make mega evo's not have your desired ability, it also makes them almost unviable (Mega Tyranitar might work if this change stays permanent) This really affects the general metagame, I found my self in a battle with a normal Aggron instead of a Mega Aggron, it almost cost me the match. Also, Pixelite and co are all bugged, they do not do anything right now.

because this is how it works in game. gen6 custom is essentially the gen 6 beta and so is trying to become as like gen 6 ou will be as possible, mega evolution mechanics and all.

Also how is this to do with BH ? :P

 

[Adrian Marin]

because this is how it works in game. gen6 custom is essentially the gen 6 beta and so is trying to become as like gen 6 ou will be as possible, mega evolution mechanics and all.

Also how is this to do with BH ? :P

I was alarmed, mainly because I thought gen 6 custom games allowed everything, such as Mega Evo's without Mega Stones. I did not think this would be an exception for XYBH when it's released. It has a lot to do with BH mainly on how it affects the meta provided that these changes stay permanent (the glitch will be fixed eventually.)

EDIT: If this is a decision to balance out the current XY BH meta, it does not really help the Mewtwo-Y problem, Insomnia Mewtwo-Y is still very powerful and normal Mewtwo can use a useful ability at the beginning such as Fur Coat, also, if this stays permanent. I also want to say that Pure/Huge power and Shadow Tag/Arena Trap are really unbalancing and broken based on my analysis (and many others as well) for reasons not difficult at all to figure out.

 

[Arcticblast]

Alright, I'm thinking that we should allow all mega evos to be used with mega evolution or mega stones, but I am also of the opinion that some of them are deserving of suspect testing (most notably Mewtwo Y).

Also, on a completely unrelated note, does the fact that XY is unhackable mean that we get to determine how mechanics are implemented when it is impossible to create a scenario in-game?

You seem to underestimate the power of Skill Swap chains, which got a lot easier now that WiFi battles are simple to start.

 

[Rumors]

AFAIK, the Gen VI Custom Game "balancing" isn't anything related to BH, but rather them just using it to test mechanics and stuff to get the standard metas as accurate as possible. I doubt any non-standard meta is prioritized right now in terms of developing stuff.

If anything, use the opportunity to compare the balance of unrestricted megas to restricted megas.

Also, they really need to program in the Assault Vest. There are devious things I wish to try with it.

 

[Pikachuun]

AFAIK, the Gen VI Custom Game "balancing" isn't anything related to BH, but rather them just using it to test mechanics and stuff to get the standard metas as accurate as possible. I doubt any non-standard meta is prioritized right now in terms of developing stuff.

I don't get it though. They've made Gen 1 OU (Beta), why can't they just make Gen 6 OU (Alpha/Beta/Whatever) :\

 

[Uselesscrab]

Hello everyone,

I played Balanced Hackmons a lot in fifth gen (more, in fact, than the standard metagames) and I'm really looking forward to utilizing all the new toys of this generation. Where can this mode be played right now?

By the way, has anyone considered ridiculously overpowered Fur Coat Shuckle/Mega Aggron for walling physical attackers?

 

[Adrian Marin]

Hello everyone,

I played Balanced Hackmons a lot in fifth gen (more, in fact, than the standard metagames) and I'm really looking forward to utilizing all the new toys of this generation. Where can this mode be played right now?

By the way, has anyone considered ridiculously overpowered Fur Coat Shuckle/Mega Aggron for walling physical attackers?

Hah, let's just hope everyone starts playing BH more (I my self never even play standard metas anymore, my main account, Adrian Marin Bh barely has any standard meta battles, but bh......... So anyway, you can't play X/Y BH in any ladder yet, however, you can check out the #Othermetas room in Showdown! you'll find many X/Y BH players such as my self eager to battle.

ur Coat is by no means OP with high defense Pokemon, especially when status offense is usually the target to defend against (Particularly the new Protean Spore and the classic PH Spore/Dark Void.)

 

[Arcticblast]

I will be testing a lot of game mechanics in the coming few weeks. If you would like to see a BH-specific game mechanic tested, please leave a comment on my profile. I understand that BH has a lot of little nuances that make the game interesting, although we might not understand how many of them work with the generation shift.

First person to ask me to test Mold Breaker gets infracted because I'm not dealing with that right now.

 

[ntiller]

I will be testing a lot of game mechanics in the coming few weeks. If you would like to see a BH-specific game mechanic tested, please leave a comment on my profile. I understand that BH has a lot of little nuances that make the game interesting, although we might not understand how many of them work with the generation shift.

First person to ask me to test Mold Breaker gets infracted because I'm not dealing with that right now.

What about the second person to ask you to test Mold Breaker?

 

[Arcticblast]

It scales upward by one infraction point until everyone who asks is banned or until I decide to start getting around to it (not for a while).

 

[michaeloche]

If you guys are complaining about Megatwo Y so much, here's a possible check, albeit an unorthodox one: Ninjask.

Ninjask @ Choice Band/Expert Belt/Life Orb/whatever
Ability: Magic Guard (subject to change)
EVs: 252 in all except SpA
Jolly Nature
-Megahorn
-Brave Bird
-Earthquake
-U-turn (if you use CB)/Sacred Fire/whatever

The main selling points of this are the fast that Ninjask outspeeds (FWIW, it only needs 96 EVs to do that with Jolly) Megatwo Y and has a SE STAB on it. While 90 base attack isn't exceptional, Megatwo Y has only 70 base defense, so Ninjask can easily revenge it with Megahorn (assuming it hits). Magic Guard is to prevent recoil from BB/LO. This is really only preliminary atm, but consider this:

252 Atk Ninjask Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom) [Megatwo Y]: 408-482 (115.58 - 136.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And this is without an item.

Edit: Forgot about all the 252 EVs in each stat. Here's a better calc:

252 Atk Choice Band Ninjask Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def (custom): 452-534 (108.65 - 128.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Keep it Playful]

We need more people like you who find ways to stop the strong Pokemon instead of complain about them. : )

That calc would be great for Mega Mewtwo Y in a different tier, but in Balanced Hackmons all the EVs are maxed out at 252 so it won't quite cut it without an item. An Adamant Ninjask still outspeeds a +speed Mewtwo Y by 3 points, so the calc without an item is:

252+ Atk Ninjask Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 332-392 (79.8 - 94.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a Life Orb it gets the job done:

252+ Atk Life Orb Ninjask Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Mewtwo Y: 432-510 (103.84 - 122.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Adrian Marin]

If you guys are complaining about Megatwo Y so much, here's a possible check, albeit an unorthodox one: Ninjask.

Ninjask @ Choice Band/Expert Belt/Life Orb/whatever
Ability: Magic Guard (subject to change)
EVs: 252 in all except SpA
Jolly Nature
-Megahorn
-Brave Bird
-Earthquake
-U-turn (if you use CB)/Sacred Fire/whatever

The main selling points of this are the fast that Ninjask outspeeds (FWIW, it only needs 96 EVs to do that with Jolly) Megatwo Y and has a SE STAB on it. While 90 base attack isn't exceptional, Megatwo Y has only 70 base defense, so Ninjask can easily revenge it with Megahorn (assuming it hits). Magic Guard is to prevent recoil from BB/LO. This is really only preliminary atm, but consider this:

252 Atk Ninjask Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom) [Megatwo Y]: 408-482 (115.58 - 136.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO

And this is without an item.

Edit: Forgot about all the 252 EVs in each stat. Here's a better calc:

252 Atk Choice Band Ninjask Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def (custom): 452-534 (108.65 - 128.36%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Honestly, it seems like a really unreliable check being unable to OHKO Mewtwo-Y and not even take a minor hit. On top of this, it can't block Spore/Dark Void, something most Mewtwo-Y's use. Mega Horn is another big risk, and all good players will immediately switch out if they find themselves toe to toe with Mewtwo-Y and Ninjask anyway. not saying it's not a good idea, it's a very good idea, I just don't see it working in the long run.

 

[Redless]

Here's my idea for a check: imposter Blissey with safety goggles. They prevent bliss-bliss from taking annoying weather damage, and of course, they block spore. They may be more useful than eviolite.

I don't like the idea of dark void in the metagame. I think that this has been brought up before, specifically by ntiller. He talked about how it is bad to have to choose between two moves, one which is luck based but gets around a specific check, and one that doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree. After a certain point, more luck is always worse, and all Pokemon metagames have reached that point.

I also hate prankster topsy-turvy. This move alone makes set up sweepers useless. With unaware, you could always predict the unawaremon staying in and go for taunt or spore. With conventional prankster, you had to beat them in a prediction game. These days, you will have to run priority that can deal with the opposing topsy, which severely cuts into what you can do with set up sweepers. Even if you pack spore to cripple the topsy, they can switch out and abusers the new sleep mechanics to wake stuff up. Now, I am not saying that topsy turvy is too strong, I am saying that it imbalances the metagame by killing all set up sweeping attempts. I think that it is too early to think about banning things, but if there is one thing that is more banworthy than anything, it's that god damn topsy-turvy.

 

[Χerneas]

Hide

Here's my idea for a check: imposter Blissey with safety goggles. They prevent bliss-bliss from taking annoying weather damage, and of course, they block spore. They may be more useful than eviolite.

I don't like the idea of dark void in the metagame. I think that this has been brought up before, specifically by ntiller. He talked about how it is bad to have to choose between two moves, one which is luck based but gets around a specific check, and one that doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree. After a certain point, more luck is always worse, and all Pokemon metagames have reached that point.

I also hate prankster topsy-turvy. This move alone makes set up sweepers useless. With unaware, you could always predict the unawaremon staying in and go for taunt or spore. With conventional prankster, you had to beat them in a prediction game. These days, you will have to run priority that can deal with the opposing topsy, which severely cuts into what you can do with set up sweepers. Even if you pack spore to cripple the topsy, they can switch out and abusers the new sleep mechanics to wake stuff up. Now, I am not saying that topsy turvy is too strong, I am saying that it imbalances the metagame by killing all set up sweeping attempts. I think that it is too early to think about banning things, but if there is one thing that is more banworthy than anything, it's that god damn topsy-turvy.

I havent played BH in gen 5.5, but is Topsy Turvy really that much stronger than Heart Swap?

 

[asterat]

Much better, heart swap was pretty lame in my opinion. You also had to run BP to make it effective, which became gimmicky. And then unaware. This completely neuters the attacker.

Also what megamons do you guys think are viable? Personally I know megagengar is excellent, but it is very weak to imposter (I've been using parting shot and experimenting with non shadow ball sets). Megachomp is sort of usable (give it sand stream) but not overwhelming. Absol and lucario might see some use. Houndoom is similar to chomp in concept. Tyranitar is worth it for sure with that bulk and power, summoning sand is not terrible either. Mewtwos are good of course, especially Y. I really want pinsir to work but it probably won't work all that well.

 

[Keep it Playful]

Here's my idea for a check: imposter Blissey with safety goggles. They prevent bliss-bliss from taking annoying weather damage, and of course, they block spore. They may be more useful than eviolite.

I don't like the idea of dark void in the metagame. I think that this has been brought up before, specifically by ntiller. He talked about how it is bad to have to choose between two moves, one which is luck based but gets around a specific check, and one that doesn't. I wholeheartedly agree. After a certain point, more luck is always worse, and all Pokemon metagames have reached that point.

I also hate prankster topsy-turvy. This move alone makes set up sweepers useless. With unaware, you could always predict the unawaremon staying in and go for taunt or spore. With conventional prankster, you had to beat them in a prediction game. These days, you will have to run priority that can deal with the opposing topsy, which severely cuts into what you can do with set up sweepers. Even if you pack spore to cripple the topsy, they can switch out and abusers the new sleep mechanics to wake stuff up. Now, I am not saying that topsy turvy is too strong, I am saying that it imbalances the metagame by killing all set up sweeping attempts. I think that it is too early to think about banning things, but if there is one thing that is more banworthy than anything, it's that god damn topsy-turvy.

Luck + Skill is part of the game and comes in to play with stronger moves (usually, if not it's based on distribution), for instance everyone could use Ancientpower or Smack Down instead of Head Smash, both of which have 100% accuarcy as opposed to 80% for Head Smash, but I've never seen a Killerchops with one of the two prior moves. Why not? Because good players know that to get that 1 to 2 HKO they need the stronger move, so they choose the stronger move, even though it comes with a cost.

Dark Void is no different, it's the same as Head Smash in terms of accuaracy, having 80% yet so many players can't break out of the mold of their 100% accurate Spores. Spore was out of control near the end of Gen V Balanced Hackmons, but now it's got plenty of counters with the addition of Safety Goggles and Grass immunity, not to mention the Poison Healers or Magic Guarders.

In addition Dark Void has only 16 max pp! Which against a Pokemon with Lum Berry, only has a 64% chance of putting them to sleep twice in a row, which uses 1/8th of their pp.

As for Topsy it's the balance that was needed to keep Mold Breaker in check. For me at least, BH is way more fun when boosts are minimally used.

 

[Rumors]

If you have to use boosting moves to sweep, then, to be blunt, you're sweeping wrong. There's plenty of other ways to nuke the hell out of the opposing team without having to set-up boosting moves. Boosting moves still make for great clean-up as well, so they're not entirely neutered. You just can't spam boosting moves without care anymore.

And personally, anything to make the meta-game less reliant on Unaware is a good thing. I'm sick of losing matches because something with Simple or Contrary critted my Unaware.

 

[ntiller]

I think between topsy and mold breaker, boosting moves are in a relatively balanced place at the moment. I also stand wholeheartedly by the idea that the meta would be better with Dark Void banned.

 

[Redless]

Luck + Skill is part of the game and comes in to play with stronger moves

I don't understand what this Luck + Skill is. Is it both luck and skill, or the ability to use skill to leverage luck? To clarify, I am not arguing that we should eliminate luk entirely, merely minimize it where possible. Spore is a move that is less luck reliant than dark void.

Spore was out of control near the end of Gen V Balanced Hackmons, but now it's got plenty of counters with the addition of Safety Goggles and Grass immunity, not to mention the Poison Healers or Magic Guarders.

What you are arguing here is that spore was very powerful near the end of fifth gen BH. You then give reasons as to why it is less powerful now, namely safety goggles and the grass immune to spore. What gets around these spore "checks" at the cost of being luck reliant? That's right, dark void! The two checks that you provide that dark void can't get around already existed, and so were present to check spore in gen 5. In other words, you appear to be arguing that spore is no longer broken what with all of these new spore specific checks, but you also imply that spore was broken when it could get around these checks like dark void still can.

As for Topsy it's the balance that was needed to keep Mold Breaker in check. For me at least, BH is way more fun when boosts are minimally used.

The balance to keep mold breaker in check? Was mold breaker not checked enough by prankster substitute, safeguard, destiny bond, haze, and heart swap as well as the ability to run PHazing moves on everything and the prevalence of imposters in the metagame?

If you have to use boosting moves to sweep, then, to be blunt, you're sweeping wrong. There's plenty of other ways to nuke the hell out of the opposing team without having to set-up boosting moves. Boosting moves still make for great clean-up as well, so they're not entirely neutered. You just can't spam boosting moves without care anymore.

And personally, anything to make the meta-game less reliant on Unaware is a good thing. I'm sick of losing matches because something with Simple or Contrary critted my Unaware.

You don't lose to a crit because the meta was too reliant on unaware. You lose to a crit because you were too reliant on an unaware. That said, I don't blame you, what with the heavily experimental teams that can't necessarily stop a sweeper in any easier way. Also, nukes are bad.

Let me end by saying that I enjoy ranting and argumentation, and I typically yell about banning things whenever any rule change disrupts the status quo. Once the meta has settled down, and we have a ladder, we can actually consider banning things.

 

[Rumors]

I don't see why Dark Void should be banned. By that same logic, we should ban moves like Blue Flare and Hydro Pump. Or secondary effects of attacks, such as the 30% Paralysis on Thunder or 50% burn on Sacred Fire (or just ban them for having secondary effects that rely on luck). Or ban crits except via Storm Throw and Frost Breath. Or, you know, anything else that doesn't happen 100% of the time.

Besides, nothing is stopping someone from running No Guard or Compound Eyes to negate the element of luck in Dark Void. And if you're really having trouble with sleep moves, Poison Heal, Magic Guard + Status Orb, and Vital Spirit exist.


And I think nukes are fine. While they're nasty if you're unprepared, they can be handled with the right team synergy without having to rely on specific moves or abilities (though those specific moves or abilities work really well when you have em).

 

[Arcticblast]

So who else is glad that Topsy-Turvy is bounced back by Magic Bounce? I think it might give Magic Bounce sweepers another shot at glory (I haven't seen one of those in BW BH for a while) since they can ignore it coming from Prankster users, and most Pokemon with a Shell Smash (or Power Herb Geomancy if you're weird) under their belt will be outspeeding everything else, so a faster Mold Breaker Topsy-Turvy isn't much of a problem.

Also, nukes are awesome. You literally click one move and something goes down. I personally liked Adaptability Slaking last gen - that Explosion, man...

(I haven't tested Topsy-Turvy against Substitute yet, haven't gotten the TM and Mr. Mime creeps me out)

 

[Keep it Playful]

I don't understand what this Luck + Skill is. Is it both luck and skill, or the ability to use skill to leverage luck? To clarify, I am not arguing that we should eliminate luk entirely, merely minimize it where possible. Spore is a move that is less luck reliant than dark void.

Pokemon is both Luck and Skill. If you don't want luck involved chess is a better game. It's not up to the meta to determine minimizing luck, it's up to the player, just as I said before in my post. Spore is a stronger move that was suppose to be for a very limited selection of Pokemon, just as Dark Void was. More common sleep inducing moves have 75% accuracy or less for a reason, not to try to add/subtract luck, but to balance a move that inflicts a deadly status.

In other words, you appear to be arguing that spore is no longer broken what with all of these new spore specific checks, but you also imply that spore was broken when it could get around these checks like dark void still can.

I never said it was broken and perhaps my words "out of control" were slightly exaggerating it. Dark Void is going to be a decent move in BHXY, just like Nuzzle, Teeter Dance, etc. but not game breaking by any means.

The balance to keep mold breaker in check? Was mold breaker not checked enough by prankster substitute, safeguard, destiny bond, haze, and heart swap as well as the ability to run PHazing moves on everything and the prevalence of imposters in the metagame?

In my opinion all of what you mentioned did not check it as consistently as Topsy does.

Edit: Well Topsy being bounced back is a major loss. xD Arctic I don't think Magic Bounce sweepers will be able to sweep consistently because Parting Shot mons with Prankster will force the Bouncer to switch out.

 

[Vincent]

I don't want to be disrespectful now, but for God's sake, STOP ASKING TO BAN THINGS! lol

Seriously guys, this metagame serves to a purpose, the purpose of being as versatile as it can with a few exceptions, and those exceptions are things that overcentralize the metagame.

Basically this metagame is Pure Hackmons (that allows EVERYTHING, so bans shouldn't be happening), but it restricts ONLY the broken top-tier things.

There are people here that wants to restrict mega forms to their megastones and/or only one mega form per team, but the only unique things on this metagame are Stats + Type, and if you guys look to most mega forms they don't even have unique type and their total stats are not even Uber-like. Really you want this banned?

What about banning Dark Void because it is luck-based? Let's ban Hydro Pump then, because Surf exists lol
I mean, Spore gen 5 was better, but it wasn't centralizing the game (well, it was, but not in a broken way) and it wasn't banned. Now Dark Void should be banned because it can MISS? It has absolute no sense at all, if you're affraid of missing attacks pick only the 100% accuracy ones, because the fact it can miss only makes it more far away from be banned, since this makes it less overpower.

About Mewtwo-X and Y, they're really strong, but they're not unstopable forces of the universe, guys lol
Everything will depend of what set they're using. Wants to stop Contrary? Unaware Cresselia. Wants to stop Mold Breaker Sweepers? Prankster Topsy-Turvy. Wants to stop Poison Heal? Probably Magic Bounce Cresselia or Lugia with Gastro Acid are good options. And so on.