Fire is even on Fairy, and resists fairy moves.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other Subtle but important nerfs
- Thread starter ShravanP
- Start date
- Status
But even so, Sylveon possesses such high SpD that even a neutral Fire Blast won't harm it too bad, if at all. Hydreigon still gets royally screwed by Fairies.
I see your point. Based the sets last gen, Hydreigon would have to have heavy Attack investment to even reach 50% damage on Azumarill, which would detract from its overall purpose.
I think my point is that most Fairies render Hydreigon useless. I think it will become UU just because of the introduction of the type.
Ha.
Haha.
Hahaha!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
...Do you honestly believe that, or are you just blowing off steam? People should feel bad for using a certain strategy to win? As long as something isn't explicitly against the rules, it's fair game in the pursuit of victory. You have to do whatever you need to win, provided that your methods don't break rules. That's the name of the game, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to reconcile himself to that before he continues playing this game.
Not exactly a nerf in terms of raw gameplay mechanics, but it should come to no surprise to anyone that Dragon- types can't spam Outrages now, because of the influx of Fairy- types. Will Dragon- types now need to rely on the lackluster but accurate Dragon Claw, or will they need to resort to Dragon (miss) Rush? This is significant, because now Dragon- types now can't fire off powerful 120 BP (180 factoring STAB) at all this generation.
Only on choice sets. On anything else... if anything, it's easier to spam Outrages, since it just passes through them without triggering confusion and all the fairies are slower. Though if fairy+steel cores become popular, maybe it'll be harder to use.
This also seems like a good thread to mention possible OU candidates such as Thundurus and Excadrill and Deoxys-D who may or may not end up moving back down after a few rounds of testing. In the case of Excadrill I think he'll be more likely to run Mold Breaker than Sand Rush, and he crucially outspeeds and Earthquakes Rotom-W in that case. Holding a Chople berry he can kill Gengar/MegaGengar too.
Electric types help make Thundurus a bit more managable because they at least can't be T-Waved at all. Thunderbolt and Thunder are slightly nerfed. There's also plenty of new pokemon that completely outspeed Thundurus and Tornadus now like Noviern and Greninja. Tornadus-T would probably be one of the best Defog users with his regenerator helping him out. Those genies still have too much potential for mixed sets though, imo, and banned or not both seem like good decisions.
Earthquake is generally so much more common this round than it was before, to deal with Aegislash, Klefki, MegaMawile, MegaLucario, MegaBlaziken, Charizard X, and everything else that was already weak to it. This trend is making life very difficult for Heatran, the Nidos, fires and steels in general, and even MegaVenusaur who is only neutral to it. With Defog coming up, EQ's omnipresence, and sticky webs, there is going to be some kind of Flying-Type-Dominance coming up. Especially ground/flying, fire/flying, water/flying, and electric/flying. Bug/flying not so much.
Electric types help make Thundurus a bit more managable because they at least can't be T-Waved at all. Thunderbolt and Thunder are slightly nerfed. There's also plenty of new pokemon that completely outspeed Thundurus and Tornadus now like Noviern and Greninja. Tornadus-T would probably be one of the best Defog users with his regenerator helping him out. Those genies still have too much potential for mixed sets though, imo, and banned or not both seem like good decisions.
Earthquake is generally so much more common this round than it was before, to deal with Aegislash, Klefki, MegaMawile, MegaLucario, MegaBlaziken, Charizard X, and everything else that was already weak to it. This trend is making life very difficult for Heatran, the Nidos, fires and steels in general, and even MegaVenusaur who is only neutral to it. With Defog coming up, EQ's omnipresence, and sticky webs, there is going to be some kind of Flying-Type-Dominance coming up. Especially ground/flying, fire/flying, water/flying, and electric/flying. Bug/flying not so much.
Last edited:
I don't think Tornadus learns defog.
For Tornadus-T and Thundurus, the lack of permanent rain seems like what'll really bring them down enough to be viable. This pushes Thundurus down to Thunderbolt most of the time, at only 75% the power Thunder had, and Tornadus-T doesn't even have that option.
I think a pretty important one may also lie in how Hidden Power's calculated based on IVs. After looking at the OP in the Research Thread I noticed that the way Hidden Power is calculated based on IVs, it's a bit different. For instance, you know how HP Fire used to be the HP Latios didn't wanna run too much because it would lose the Speed tie against opposing Lati@s by having to use a 30 Speed IV?
Well, now that is HP Ice. You have to have an even-numbered IV in the Speed stat no matter which spread for a 60-BP HP Ice you try to go for. In fact, based on this chart, HP Ice, HP Fire, and HP Fighting now force you to use an even-numbered IV in the Speed stat. Meanwhile, HP Fairy (lol), HP Grass, Electric, and Ground (should you ever need to use it I guess) allow you to run an odd-numbered IV in speed.
This change isn't super detrimental, but Pokemon who still would like using a Hidden Power may end up losing Speed ties if they need HP Ice or Fighting on top of the already-known HP Fire. Meanwhile pokes with the other ones can still run a perfect Speed IV. I can't really think of any specific examples that may be all too huge, but the fact it's happened may not really matter until that one moment it's kicking you in your side.
Well, now that is HP Ice. You have to have an even-numbered IV in the Speed stat no matter which spread for a 60-BP HP Ice you try to go for. In fact, based on this chart, HP Ice, HP Fire, and HP Fighting now force you to use an even-numbered IV in the Speed stat. Meanwhile, HP Fairy (lol), HP Grass, Electric, and Ground (should you ever need to use it I guess) allow you to run an odd-numbered IV in speed.
This change isn't super detrimental, but Pokemon who still would like using a Hidden Power may end up losing Speed ties if they need HP Ice or Fighting on top of the already-known HP Fire. Meanwhile pokes with the other ones can still run a perfect Speed IV. I can't really think of any specific examples that may be all too huge, but the fact it's happened may not really matter until that one moment it's kicking you in your side.
I am aware of that, CM Jirachi was a thing.
But Jirachi was still very rarely used as an offensive threat. It was used for T-Wave; Paraflinch, U-Turn and Wish in most cases.
Yeah. Key word "was". If it had a Fairy typing then it'd definitely have more of an offensive presence, especially in comparison to Klefki, which is essentially what I said in the first place.
Full circle!
Lilligant seems to have taken a hit this gen from the changes in mechanics. Even though it was RU in Gen 5, it was still considered to be pretty good there. It was even usable in UU and OU. Unfortunately Hidden Power, its only coverage move was nerfed to base 60, and Sleep Powder no longer works on Grass types. So Lilligant will likely have a time getting pass bulky Grass-types.
Politoed and Ninetales also were took a hit with the weather nerf, but to be honest they can still auto-summon weather for eight turns with Damp Rock and Heat Rock respectively so they will very much enjoy niches in weather offense teams. These two probably weren't to badly affected by the weather mechanics. After all they probably won't be superstars in XY like they were in BW, but they will at least have useful niches.
Politoed and Ninetales also were took a hit with the weather nerf, but to be honest they can still auto-summon weather for eight turns with Damp Rock and Heat Rock respectively so they will very much enjoy niches in weather offense teams. These two probably weren't to badly affected by the weather mechanics. After all they probably won't be superstars in XY like they were in BW, but they will at least have useful niches.
I don't know if this counts at all as subtle, but Metagross got hit on all fronts. Gained two weaknesses, the greater viability of fire types due to new Defog mechanics, as well as the large number of new grounded threats keeping EQ in the forefront of physical moves, all means that it will have a harder time surviving to do damage. It also has a harder time doing damage in the first place, considering that Meteor Mash was tragically nerfed by 10%, bringing it down to a merely decent 90bp. While its accuracy was raised to 90%, this is hardly enough to make up for its loss in power. It's going to miss out on some 2HKOs that it needed, especially considering that SR and especially Spikes will be harder to keep up this gen. We've seen no signs that Clear Body has been buffed to stop speed loss from paralysis or attack loss from burn, so it's still stuck with an extremely mediocre ability.
On the other hand, it wrecks most fairy types, as it can tank Play Rough with its excellent defense, and many special fairy types have no extra type that isn't resisted by Metagross (think psychic/fairy, fairy/flying, normal/fairy, or just pure fairy). Overall, it's most undoubtedly a nerf to Metagross, although the changes are admittedly mixed.
On the other hand, it wrecks most fairy types, as it can tank Play Rough with its excellent defense, and many special fairy types have no extra type that isn't resisted by Metagross (think psychic/fairy, fairy/flying, normal/fairy, or just pure fairy). Overall, it's most undoubtedly a nerf to Metagross, although the changes are admittedly mixed.
In the same vein, Bronzong got hit bad for the same reason.
What's even worse is, as a dual-screener, Klefki has both prankster and dual-screens, so Bronzong will likely have to compete with Klefki in a spot in UU (assuming Klefki gets to UU, which I personally believe it has a good chance of being positioned there).
However Bronzong still works well on trick-room teams, has better bulk, and access to better attacking moves.
Not sure about Jirachi, as it's unreleased presently.
Am I the only one here who is generally terrified of the thought that the likes of Hydreigon and Metagross could be running around in UU? (For the record, I'm not convinced Hydreigon is hit that hard by fairies. It's just got so many coverage options that it can almost always work past its particular counters, just not all at the same time. And I don't think the Scarf + U-turn set is particularly damaged. As for Metagross, its offensive typing is actually useful this generation, so again it should be fine, especially considering how many Pokemon will fall out of OU without permanent weather.)
Even in UU Metagross' life got harder. Assuming that some UU players stay in the tier, the new weakness to Dark types makes him vulnerable to Sucker Punch Honchkrow/Bisharp, both of Houndoom's AND Chandelure's STABs and even Klefki's Foul Play (if it ends up in UU).
Of course, I don't doubt that he will be able to wreak havoc against teams, but I wouldn't count that BL ban so soon.
As the pool of pokemon gets larger; the tiers will change. There is only so much room in OU due to the tier calculations [Usually about 46]. People never thought Heracross would be UU, for example, or Cresselia, back in Gen 4.
Every tier will be an entirely different place. We have the fairy type; changed Base Stats; new moves; new move accessibility; moves changed; new mechanics like electric being immune to paralysis, and so on. It already looks certain that Latias will be UU at least; it almost was in Gen5 and got hit pretty hard.
This is uncharted territory. We're not even in position to talk about the OU metagame yet; let alone UU; RU or NU. For all we know Metagross could be manageable by something that ends up down there.
===
On the main topic; an indirect nerf I feel that will hurt is Starmie.
- Hydro Pump lost 10BP
- Ice Beam lost 5BP
- Thunderbolt lost 5BP
- There is likly a very common user of Shadow Sneak in OU now; Ageislash; who switches in on Starmie with near-impunity. Oh; and he gets Pursuit too. Just to REALLY screw with Starmie. [This applies for the Lati twins too]
- Assault Vest exists now; so Starmie can't blow holes in attackers
- Starmie's niche is arguably contested by Protean Greninja; who; while he does not get Thunderbolt; gets STAB Ice Beam, and gets attacks such as Dark Pulse; and even U-Turn for momentum.
- Perma-rain is a thing of the past, so Starmie can't really run Thunder on a rain team and benifit from the extra x1.5 to Surf/Scald/Hydro Pump
Last edited:
Psychic types in general now feel notably worse.
1. Jirachi, Metagross, other steel/psychic can now be pursuit trapped and sucker punched.
2. With a viable Assault Vest user that gets Pursuit (Tyranitar), special attacking Psychic types can be switched into and killed a lot easier than before.
3. Many Dark types in general will likely see more use due to indirect buffs, even with the Fairy weakness. Such as the Assault Vest, Steel losing its resistance to Dark, Bisharp benefiting from Sticky Web, etc.
4. Ghost moves are more spammable than before, due to Steel losing its resistance, many things losing their Normal typing for Fairy (Togekiss), no one really uses Blissey/Chansey as much as they used to anymore, etc.
5. Sticky Web hurts many of the fast/frail/hard-hitting things like Alakazam much more than things that actually see more use in this metagame.
6. Fairy moves offer better coverage if you need something to kill Fighting types. They don't cover Poison, but Fairy/Ground offer reasonably good coverage together - much better than Psychic/anything.
7. With the rain nerf and new Pokemon/typing combinations, Celebi will probably see less use. Azumarill resists both Water and Fighting now and has far fewer weaknesses, isn't hurt by Pursuit/Uturn/the random Keldeo with HP Bug/Ice/Ghost, etc. Of course they have different uses from each other, but still...
As for Paraflinch, Electric types were never the best target for that strategy anyway, since they resist Iron Head and Air Slash. Magnezone resists both moves 4x. Even though it's slower than the only 2 Paraflinchers that see use (Jirachi and Togekiss), no one would have aimed to Paraflinch it before due to the 4x resist doing extremely low damage to it each turn/Magnezone's potential to kill it with a weakness once it finally didn't get haxed. There were far better things to do to Electric types, such as hitting them with any Ground move...
Yes; but you can switch an Electric-type in on Togekiss/Jirachi now without fearing them being crippled by Paralysis.
And yes; agreeing with Psychic types feeling worse. In fact; I'd say Psychic is an outright bad type now. It only hits two types SE; resisted by two [One being the best defensivetype in the game] and has an immunity [Which can also trap it].
And Ghost is the new Dragon when it comes to spam attacking. Dark isn't much better.
And yes; agreeing with Psychic types feeling worse. In fact; I'd say Psychic is an outright bad type now. It only hits two types SE; resisted by two [One being the best defensivetype in the game] and has an immunity [Which can also trap it].
And Ghost is the new Dragon when it comes to spam attacking. Dark isn't much better.
There has been a lot of talk that dragons are gonna be hit hard by the fairies, but aren't they still able to wreck havoc on anything that doesn't resist it? Teams that want to use dragons just have to find a way to cover their weakness to fairy and once the other team has lost its fairies they can go wreck the other team.
Basically. Fairies just don't have the presence yet to really threaten dragons outside Ubers. I still say Dragon is the best offensive type in the game, but the margin has shrunk and ghost is a close second
Ghost may really prove to be a stronger offensive type. After all dark is much poorer as a defensive type than steel. Its just that the dragon types are often much bulkier and hit harder than most ghosts. Gengar and Aegislash are the only two offensive ghosts running around, while there are plenty of dragons to fire off their STAB moves.
- Status