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A Pokemon Draft.

Heres one issue that I'm seeing now. The 1st and 8th place players are the only players with two picks in a row, which means they're the only ones liable to get Gyaravire, Skarmbliss, or even less-regarded comboes like Forretress and Heatran. Even if you have to get down into BL and UU 'mons, you can still get highly effective comboes. So, instead, how about something like this...

Overall Picks
Rnd\Player ...A .......B .......C .......D .......E .......F .......G .......H
1st ..........1st ....2nd .....3rd ....4th .....5th ....6th .....7th ....8th
2nd .......10th ...11th ...12th ...13th ...14th ...15th ...16th ....9th
3rd ........19th ...20th ...21st ..22nd ....23rd ..24th ....17th ..18th
4th ........28th ...29th ...30th ..31st ...32nd ...25th ...26th ...27th
5th ........37th ...38th ...39th ..40th ...33rd ...34th ....35th ..36th
6th ........46th ...47th ...48th ..41st ...42nd ...43rd ....44th ..45th
7th ........55th ...56th ...49th ..50th ...51st ...52nd ....53rd ..54th
8th ........64th ...57th ...58th ..59th ...60th ...61st ....62nd ..63rd

Merits: All players get two consecutive picks except for player A, who gets the first overall pick and earlier picks in the following rounds. For players who get earlier consecutive picks, they get later first-round picks, so the great pokemon comboes such as SkarmBliss and Gyaravire might be unavailable because of early picks, causing their comboes will be more improvised. The earlier their first-round pick, the more improvised their combo.
 
He's got a point. And, another idea I've seen (though I don't know if it works or not), is that the draft order is "random". That is, the 1st round is the same, but everyone has a different order each round (for example, Team 1 would pick 1st in round 1, and then [for example] 8th, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 7th), and it would let everyone have a 1st pick in a round, a 2nd pick, etc., and prevent things like SkarmBliss.
 
I don't think the combos thing would be an issue as far as the common, standard ones like Gyaravire are concerned. The kind of pokes needed for those types of combos are popular enough outside of them that they'll be taken regardless ('Vire can be used with ANYTHING that's electric weak, Gyaravire should be the least of your worries with him in this format). Skarmbliss would be nigh impossible to nab.

That's what part of the intrigue for something like this is, though: planning and studying to try and figure out where everything COULD go. That way, if you're stuck with a middle pick, you can figure out where you expect things like Forrettress/Heatran to fall, and if you want them, grab them accordingly. You can't just simply allow the people on the ends to be the only ones getting the combos. Plan ahead.

Of course, that's what a lot of the fun for something like this would be, too, seeing exactly where things DO fall. Maybe you expect Heatran to be a late 3rd early 4th type poke, and then he goes in the middle of the second round. That's a large part of the experience with these types of things. Trying to over-complicate things waters it down way too much.
 
porygon3 said:
He's got a point. And, another idea I've seen (though I don't know if it works or not), is that the draft order is "random". That is, the 1st round is the same, but everyone has a different order each round (for example, Team 1 would pick 1st in round 1, and then [for example] 8th, 5th, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 3rd, and 7th), and it would let everyone have a 1st pick in a round, a 2nd pick, etc., and prevent things like SkarmBliss.
Click to expand...
Random orders don't work. There's only a small number of rounds, with a small number of results. This leads to 'extreme' results being too common to be called fair. You need a far larger size draft to make random orders work well. Also, what you described isn't really random, can't say I've looked at that method much.

I don't see what's wrong with the normal snake draft, it's been used for years and never been replaced.
 
okay it is obvious that i have been thinking about this topic for a while. This is not something that I just impulsely decided to make up. So, with this post i will explain everything exactly the way I would want it, If I was in charge of the tourney. I didn't mention this in the 1st post because I thought this was an idea that most people would NOT be interested in and I really didn't want to invest a ton of time. It is clear though that AT LEAST 8 people (well, me+7) would be interested, so below I will mention the rules specifically if I were in charge. If you have any questions or something that you see a serious flaw in just let me know. Thanks. Here we go....

Type of Tournament: Draft
Amount of Players: 6-8
Amount of Time: 3 days
Day 1: Draft
Day 2: Regular Season
Day 3: Playoffs

Format for matches: ALL matches will be 6 vs. 6

No ubers
Sleep Clause
DT/OHKO Clause
No Item Clause
No Freeze Clause
It will be IMPOSSIBLE to violate the species clause.

Day 1: The draft!

This is the most important part of the tournament, and your success here will determine your success on Day 2 and 3

step 1: When tournament is announced, people will begin to register. A minimum of 5 is needed and a maximum of 7 will be accepted. (I would be number 6,7, or 8).

step 2: I will politely ask if one of the administrators or moderators will volunteer in this process. All eight of our names will be given to the mod or admin and he/she will write them all on a piece of paper and throw them in a hat. Then, they will draw from 1 through 8 and announce to us, when we are picking. Drafting will not be anonymous! Later I will explain why it will not matter when you know what pokemon or who's team.

Step 3) a new thread will be made and the first post will simply say begin the draft. blah, blah, blah.

Then the person who picks first will have 3 min. to post who they want to take. NOTE: You will not be able to repick. Think wisely in what decision you will make. You have 3 minutes with each pick. There would be more time for each pick but at 3 min. a pick, the draft will take 4 hours, and many do not have the time to wait around on a computer all day.

*Once a pokemon is gone, it is unavailable to the rest of the field.

Step 4) The draft will end after 10 rounds; therefore 60-80 pokemon will be selected.

*The draft will be from 3 hrs (6 players) to 4 hrs (8 players). The day of the tournament will be announced in advance so be sure that your schedule is clear for that 4 hours.

Day 2: Regular Season.

The Regular Season will be designed so that you play each opponent ONCE. That is a total of 7 matches. (assuming there is eight players) So, yes drafting Gligar in hopes of countering Heracross will be justified in at least one match in the regular season. Each player will have 10 poke's on their roster. You will be allowed to completely change your team from match to match. This may seem unfair if your opponent has a Magnezone and you have Skarmory, but the odds that you will be completely countered by one individual is very unlikely. Remember, you can also mix and match your 10 poke's on the squad. If your going against the person with a Magnezone you may just want to have Skarmory chill on the bench for that match. Once every person plays all of their matches, they will be seeded one through eight for Day 3. The number one seed is obviously the best record and the eight seed is the worse record. In the case that two people have the same record (i.e. 2 people are 6-1), then a tie breaker system will be used.

The tie breaker system

In the case that two people are tied, the person who won the match in the regular season will be granted the higher seed (lower number) for Day 3.

In the case that three (or more) people are tied and a two person tie breaker system can not be used then the tie breaker will be determined by amount of poke's KO'ed by your team in the regular season. I'll explain

Player A, B, and C all finish 4-3 in the regular season. Player A defeated Player B, Player B defeated Player C, and Player C defeated Player A. A two person tie breaker can not be used because although one player is better than another, they are worse than the other. Sorry if that is confusing. Player A KO'ed 27 poke's in his 7 matches, Player B KO'ed 32 poke's in his seven matches and Player C KO'ed 30 poke's in his regular season.

SO Player B will be granted with the higher seed, Player C will be granted the next seed, and Player A will be granted the lowest of the 4-3 seeds.

Day 3: The playoffs.

The playoffs are the most simple part in all of this.

Round 1:
Match 1: 1 seed vs. 8 seed
Match 2: 4 seed vs. 5 seed
Match 3: 3 seed vs. 6 seed
Match 4: 2 seed vs. 7 seed

Round 2: Semifinals

Winner of Match 1 vs. Winner of Match 2

Winner of Match 3 vs. Winner of match 4

Round 3: finals

the 2 players left standing.

*All playoff series will be a best out of 3 series.

Prizes: No clue?

Okay that is it.

Any feed back. Go ahead, bash away. lol
 
Kimi3013 said:
I don't see what's wrong with the normal snake draft, it's been used for years and never been replaced.
Click to expand...
If I remember my one MTG Draft match, the system I posted is the one used in organized MTG Draft matches. Assume the 8 players are seated at a table in clockwise formation (A is at 1, B is at 2, etc). What basically happens is that the first bid is passed counter-clockwise at the end of each round. It's a lot simpler than my chart made it out to be.
 
i'm definitely up for joining this. could i suggest that you leave the topic with the Draft Board available for reference throughout the season? that way the players can check up on who the star players that they're going up against are each week. also, a final decision regarding Manaphy needs to be made.
 
nomargu46 said:
Also, a final decision regarding Manaphy needs to be made.
Click to expand...
That reminds me. Smogon technically doesn't have a Tiers system yet, so there are no actual Ubers. For that reason, each draft tourney will have to define which 'mons are Ubers before Competitor comes out.

(Yeah people can use common sense, but honestly theres enough people in the world lacking common sense to be concerned about this.)
 
X-Codes said:
Heres one issue that I'm seeing now. The 1st and 8th place players are the only players with two picks in a row, which means they're the only ones liable to get Gyaravire, Skarmbliss, or even less-regarded comboes like Forretress and Heatran. Even if you have to get down into BL and UU 'mons, you can still get highly effective comboes. So, instead, how about something like this...

Overall Picks
Rnd\Player ...A .......B .......C .......D .......E .......F .......G .......H
1st ..........1st ....2nd .....3rd ....4th .....5th ....6th .....7th ....8th
2nd .......10th ...11th ...12th ...13th ...14th ...15th ...16th ....9th
3rd ........19th ...20th ...21st ..22nd ....23rd ..24th ....17th ..18th
4th ........28th ...29th ...30th ..31st ...32nd ...25th ...26th ...27th
5th ........37th ...38th ...39th ..40th ...33rd ...34th ....35th ..36th
6th ........46th ...47th ...48th ..41st ...42nd ...43rd ....44th ..45th
7th ........55th ...56th ...49th ..50th ...51st ...52nd ....53rd ..54th
8th ........64th ...57th ...58th ..59th ...60th ...61st ....62nd ..63rd

Merits: All players get two consecutive picks except for player A, who gets the first overall pick and earlier picks in the following rounds. For players who get earlier consecutive picks, they get later first-round picks, so the great pokemon comboes such as SkarmBliss and Gyaravire might be unavailable because of early picks, causing their comboes will be more improvised. The earlier their first-round pick, the more improvised their combo.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry this doesn't work. Here's why. look at the first player. He get's 2 out of the best 10 pokemon in the field. Yes, it is true that the first player and the eighth player get two picks in a row, but that is how a draft works. It keeps things fair. PAY CLOSE ATTENTION: SKARMBLISS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN. Blissey will be taken in the first three or four picks hands down which means that skarmory would have to be bypassed 8-12 more times for that blissey owner to be picked. Now for gyarados/electivire. Lets say that the person who picks 8th and 9th grabs gyarados/electivire. So what? are you telling me it is an unbeatable strategy. Remember that pokemon is 6 on 6 not 2 on 2. The person who picks 7th will also pick 10th (only 2 picks away), so the chances of his pokemon being there are good. It is the people who pick 4th and 5th that will have the most trouble making combos, but at the same time they do not need to wait 15 picks for their next pick like the person who picks 8th and 1st.
 
X-Codes said:
If I remember my one MTG Draft match, the system I posted is the one used in organized MTG Draft matches. Assume the 8 players are seated at a table in clockwise formation (A is at 1, B is at 2, etc). What basically happens is that the first bid is passed counter-clockwise at the end of each round. It's a lot simpler than my chart made it out to be.
Click to expand...
Ah, that makes sense. I didn't think of it like that before. I've used that, just not looked at an overall order before.
 
nomargu46 said:
i'm definitely up for joining this. could i suggest that you leave the topic with the Draft Board available for reference throughout the season? that way the players can check up on who the star players that they're going up against are each week. also, a final decision regarding Manaphy needs to be made.
Click to expand...


I suppose this can be done. An entire regular season can be played in one day (because it is only 7 opponents) but if you drag it out and people aren't too p*ss*d off about it, then I suppose that would not be a problem.
 
rbygsc kid 251 said:
--->SNIP<---
Click to expand...

I've got a problem with the time limit on the draft. It could be a problem to get four hours with nothing in. breaking it into small chunks could work better. I like the idea of the submitted lists I suggested. Let the draft take a week and have some time after to train pokemon they don't have.

And how do an 8 team playoffs work when there's six teams? just have the bottom two miss out?
 
It's a minor thing, but I think Freeze Clause should still be enacted, you never know =/

What if the three people tie breaker didn't work? Say two or more people KO'd the same amount of pokemon? (I know the odds are against this but it's always good to have a safety net)

Isn't it slightly unfiar to have the best player against the worst? At least give the 8th seed a fighting chance.
 
General Tso said:
It's a minor thing, but I think Freeze Clause should still be enacted, you never know =/

What if the three people tie breaker didn't work? Say two or more people KO'd the same amount of pokemon? (I know the odds are against this but it's always good to have a safety net)

Isn't it slightly unfiar to have the best player against the worst? At least give the 8th seed a fighting chance.
Click to expand...
The whole idea of a playoff is to have the person at the top have the best chance. Like in real sports.
 
Kimi3013 said:
I've got a problem with the time limit on the draft. It could be a problem to get four hours with nothing in. breaking it into small chunks could work better. I like the idea of the submitted lists I suggested. Let the draft take a week and have some time after to train pokemon they don't have.

And how do an 8 team playoffs work when there's six teams? just have the bottom two miss out?
Click to expand...


to answer your first question. yes, i would actually prefer the draft to be broken into 5 days. 2 rounds per day, that way you get time to make your guys. Obviously, nobody is going to have 300 pokemon ready to go on draft day. Great suggestion. the only reason i mentioned one day is the fact that you have to get 7 People (i will be 8) that are willing to devote time to this. Honestly, I think it is great to spread things out, and if that was the case I would be more than willing to organinze it. I actually do have a life, despite how much I type. lol.

your second question.

6 players (similar to NFL playoffs)

Round 1:

#3 vs. #6
#4 vs. #5
#1 and #2 have a bye.

Round 2:

#1 vs. lowest advancing seed
#2 vs. highest advancing seed

Round 3:

Winners of Round 2

If there are 7 players, then it will be the exact same as an 8 man bracket except the #1 seed will get a bye and play the winner of the #4vs.#5 matchup
 
General Tso said:
It's a minor thing, but I think Freeze Clause should still be enacted, you never know =/

What if the three people tie breaker didn't work? Say two or more people KO'd the same amount of pokemon? (I know the odds are against this but it's always good to have a safety net)

Isn't it slightly unfiar to have the best player against the worst? At least give the 8th seed a fighting chance.
Click to expand...


first: Freeze Clause: I hate this for one reason. What if I have a poke that is frozen and switch. I'm not going to tell you to stop using ice beam.

second: In the case that two people have the same amount of KO's, then they would simply play a sudden death match (with the same rules as all other matches). NOTE: If the 4th and 5th best people tie, then in theory, it doesnt matter because they face each other in the first round anyway.

Third: Well don't worry about being 8th. If you do your homework, draft well, don't make any real dumb decisions in the regular season you will not be 8th. Remember this isn't a normal tourney, in which you are lined up randomly. Your position on Day 3 is 100 percent earned by you. I mean I could let the 8 seed use ubers, but im pretty sure i would get kicked off of smogon. lol
 
I agree with the non Freeze Clause, don't nurf my Ice Beam. Once the competior comes out, maybe there'll be the option to have the secondary effects turned off to help with this.

As for banned pokemon I vote the standard list + Manaphy (until we really know where he goes). That list would then be:
Mewtwo
Mew
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Wynaut
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Darkrai
Arceus
Manaphy
 
Kimi3013 said:
I agree with the non Freeze Clause, don't nurf my Ice Beam. Once the competior comes out, maybe there'll be the option to have the secondary effects turned off to help with this.

As for banned pokemon I vote the standard list + Manaphy (until we really know where he goes). That list would then be:
Mewtwo
Mew
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Wynaut
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Darkrai
Arceus
Manaphy
Click to expand...

I don't use Manaphy (uber or not) so yeah, I have no problem with that. Although, other Manaphy users will be upset if it is normally allowed on Smogon. We will just have to see what the future brings. After all, there are many more things that need to be worked out besides the rules that i mentioned before.
 
Kimi3013 said:
The whole idea of a playoff is to have the person at the top have the best chance. Like in real sports.
Click to expand...


lol. Pokemon is a sport. If poker is a sport, than there is just as much mental power (if not more) used in a 6 on 6 match of pokemon, and I don't know about you, but sometimes im put in situations in which I sweat.
 
rbygsc kid 251 said:
lol. Pokemon is a sport. If poker is a sport, than there is just as much mental power (if not more) used in a 6 on 6 match of pokemon, and I don't know about you, but sometimes im put in situations in which I sweat.
Click to expand...
I refuse to accept that poker is a sport in anyway. There much be some form of physical effort, and interaction between competitors for it to be a sport. That means poker's out, video games are out, and golf is out. As is athletics (they're a competition, a physical one).

Until chess is in the Olympics, everything else has to get in line and wait.
 
X-Codes said:
If I remember my one MTG Draft match, the system I posted is the one used in organized MTG Draft matches. Assume the 8 players are seated at a table in clockwise formation (A is at 1, B is at 2, etc). What basically happens is that the first bid is passed counter-clockwise at the end of each round. It's a lot simpler than my chart made it out to be.
Click to expand...

The way you formatted it properly shows how a booster draft would work, the thing is, Pokemon don't come in booster packs, although that'd be kinda cool to do it that way (and probably terribly difficult to set up). It's not like each player chooses from 8 pokes and then passes the rest to the next guy.
 
Hmm 4 hours, not for me.

Good luck finding 8 people willing to sit at the computer for 4 hours.

Fastest possible way: Use VENTRILLO or TEAMSPEAK, or even Mirc.
 
a possible idea that could make things a lot more lively in these drafts:

why instead of round-robin, you do auctions? Say all players start out with 100 points, and then each pokemon is put up for auction. Basically, 8 players would say how much they want to spend on a particular pokemon. This also works in the fantasy football/baseball/basketball sense as that they do have these. Technically, it would be possible to get Skarm Bliss provided that player spends ALL his points on those two pokemon, which would mean his other four would be left from the leftovers. Even then, the possibility of that happening would be just slim.

this said, it's not as "dry" as most of the round-robin drafts would be, having to wait forever between picks. also, the auction atmosphere makes time go faster and generates a lot of "friendly conversation".

one suggestion about the fantasy draft outcomes: regardless of what happens, it would be so much more interesting if you can change movesets on pokemon. This gives pokemon a sense of unpredictability and can even help develop the metagame for different strategies. additionally, that would be one factory in help distinguishing the metagame from drafting-- the versatility that pokemon have. that way, salamence is just stuck on specsmence, or gyarados isn't just stuck on bulky-dos. You can go mixed sweeper with salamence if need be and a sub-flailer with gyarados, if it fits your needs.
 
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