I see your point... but 108/121 physical bulk isn't as good as it sounds on a Pokemon with such common weaknesses (especially with the buffed Azumarill running around everywhere). Anyway, I prefer using Pokemon that have a more clearly defined purpose (i.e. the aforementioned Pseudo-Legendaries), especially when it is a Dragon. Dragonite's massive power and superior movepool, combined with Multiscale, will keep it as the primary Dragon-type D-Dancer in OU, I believe. Coil sets would probably be good competition for Chomp though, I'll admit, thought Zygarde's lack of a useful ability hurts it.
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Pokémon Zygarde
- Thread starter ChaosNemesis
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I see your point... but 108/121 physical bulk isn't as good as it sounds on a Pokemon with such common weaknesses (especially with the buffed Azumarill running around everywhere). Anyway, I prefer using Pokemon that have a more clearly defined purpose (i.e. the aforementioned Pseudo-Legendaries), especially when it is a Dragon. Dragonite's massive power and superior movepool, combined with Multiscale, will keep it as the primary Dragon-type D-Dancer in OU, I believe. Coil sets would probably be good competition for Chomp though, I'll admit, thought Zygarde's lack of a useful ability hurts it.
108 / 121 one of the bulkiest things in the game. The bulk isn't used to wall stuff though. For example Zygarde with 104 HP EVs (leftover from what isn't needed in speed) is only 2HKOed by Scarf Terrakion 5% of the time (0% of the time if you hold Leftovers). This means you can Dragon Dance twice against it and sweep. Landorus doesn't counter Zygarde either if it switches in on Dragon Dance. Zygarde can Dragon Dance a second time while taking under 50% from even max attack Adamant Earthquake (defensive Landy T's only 3-4HKO), then proceed to 2HKO even those most defensive sets. STAB Earthquake means that at +2 most fairies aren't going to survive a hit. Azumarill for example always is KOed by a +2 Earthquake after Stealth Rock while it can't OHKO back with anything unless it has Choice Band. Other fairies do far worse. Sp Defensive Florges and Gardevoir are both OHKOed by +1 Earthquake after Stealth Rock damage.
Other Dragon checks like Scizor do similarly bad at countering Zygarde. Bullet Punch only 3-4HKOs while +1 Earthquake easily 2HKOs. Earthquake 2HKOs at +0 if rocks are down. Mamoswine deals 69% max with Ice Shard while +1 Outrage OHKOs (or Earthquake + Extremespeed). Mamoswine at 50% or lower that takes a hit from Stealth Rocks just outright dies to Extremespeed without getting a single hit off.
Zygarde isn't perfect. It can't do much of anything against Skarmory (but Mega Gengar can handle that) but at least in the current metagame Zygarde has only a few easily worn down checks and multiple chances to set up. It may not have the power of Garchomp nor the bulk of Dragonite, but it also melds the best qualities of both into a deceptively powerful Pokemon.
Although this set looks really cool, I could see it having real trouble with something like Landorus-T which has Intimidate and the bulk to most likely take laughable damage from all these attacks and then hit it hard with HP Ice. I'm not saying it won't be a good set, but I think it will definitely require a lot of support, getting rid of bulky ground and steel types. I'm personally leaning more towards using Glare, as a Coil or Dragon Dance set would require too much support.
Damn, this thing is so freaking bulky...
Its typing is just kind of unfortunate... for Garchomp it's a blessing offensively, but also defensively as a bulky attacker with few weaknesses... but to Zygarde, the same typing's overall lack of resistances is the bigger problem, and it's hard to pick this as a physically defensive Poke when it has no recovery and Rock as its only relevant physical resistance...
If it got SR, it could do some hilarious support tank set with a Dragon resist berry to one-shot other dragons who think they have the advantage by being faster... as it is I can't see a real use for this thing.
Its typing is just kind of unfortunate... for Garchomp it's a blessing offensively, but also defensively as a bulky attacker with few weaknesses... but to Zygarde, the same typing's overall lack of resistances is the bigger problem, and it's hard to pick this as a physically defensive Poke when it has no recovery and Rock as its only relevant physical resistance...
If it got SR, it could do some hilarious support tank set with a Dragon resist berry to one-shot other dragons who think they have the advantage by being faster... as it is I can't see a real use for this thing.
More than Garchomp this is comparable to Flygon. Same attack, lower speed, better support movepool but worse offensive movepool (fire moves and U-Turn are overall more useful than Extremespeed). Unless Aura Break has some amazing hidden effect we're not aware of it's pretty much a non-ability.
I don't understand why anyone would run Coil over Dragon Dance. Dragon/Ground isn't exactly a great defensive type and it will be forced out a lot. With DD Zygarde can at least attempt to OHKO something before being OHKO'd itself or being forced out.
I don't understand why anyone would run Coil over Dragon Dance. Dragon/Ground isn't exactly a great defensive type and it will be forced out a lot. With DD Zygarde can at least attempt to OHKO something before being OHKO'd itself or being forced out.
It's funny that even with an adamant nature, life orb and a dragon dance under its belt, this thing only does around 55% to offensive Mamoswine with ES. In all honesty, by OU standards, 100 base attack is way too low for an offensive Pokemon, especially when it faces competition with a powerhouse like Garchomp, who's better into pretty much everything. I really don't see Zygarde shine in OU. It could be very powerful in UU though.
The problem here is that you have the Coil and the Glare separate. You are not being one with the Zygarde.
Zygarde
Nature: Careful (+SpD, -SpA)
Ability:Aura Break
Item: Leftovers
EV's: 252HP / 4Def / 252SpD
Moves:
- Glare
- Dragon Tail
- Coil
- Earthquake
It's just like using Dragonite, but you don't have to worry about that unfortunate 10% chance of missing with either of the moves, and your Dragon Tail will do more damage. Totally worth it, eh?
I dunno, Fairy types kinda shit on these kind of set at the moment >_>
Obligatory fuck Cloyster. That thing kinda laugh at Zygarde
Its ability to check Terrakion quite effectively is a plus, but considering those stats I'm surprised it can still be 2HKOed after SR / Spikes damage even with significant HP investment, which is disappointing and forces you to run more bulk and less Attack or Speed to be a reliable switch-in multiple times. Other common physical attackers such as Azumarill and Mamoswine will deal massive damage to it anyway (Choice Band Mamo's Icicle Crash would most likely OHKO a +0 Zygarde after a switch into 3 layers of spikes regardless of Zygarde's defensive investment), which lowers its ability to stop hyper-offensive teams which will certainly be prepared for physical walls.
As for Skarmory stopping it... well, Mega Gengar is basically a guaranteed ban from OU when the meta starts to settle down a little and XY has been integrated fully into Showdown. I mean, if Wobbuffet was banned in Gen 4 simply for having great bulk, encore and countercoat with Shadow Tag, and ST Goth was banned from UU despite its pure psychic typing and pathetic stats... imagine how much Mega Gengar will affect this new generation with its enormous stats, both Ghost and Poison types being buffed this gen, its colossal and varied movepool, and also having Shadow Tag. Although admittedly Skarmory still has to watch out for Magnezone, of course, but otherwise Skarmory remains an excellent stop to it.
I agree that as a standalone Pokemon it IS good, I just think that overall its fairly evenly spread stats and useless abillity hold it back from being as good in any one niche as its competitors, with the exception of Coil which is probably because nothing with even as remotely high stats / utility has access to (only Eelektross and Arbok come to mind). Its generic typing, low speed and mediocre special bulk still make it fodder for several Pokemon, and various physical walls outright neuter it due to its predictability (it's nowhere near as versatile as Dnite or Mence). It has zero ways of ever going mixed with any real effect, aside from firing off a fairly weak Draco Meteor. It's a good Pokemon on its own merits, but really I think that if you aren't using the coil set or using its physical bulk to repel physical attackers, you should be using something else.
Another problem is that this thing is complete Taunt bait. Unlike Dnite / Chomp / Mence / pretty much any other OU-level dragon, it cannot hit bulky Pokemon hard at all without boosts, especially as it often has significant defensive investment and lefties rather than maximal offenses. Pokemon such as Intimidate / Taunt Gyarados and Prankster Sableye stop it cold (provided Sableye hits with WoW) unless it runs Sub, which reduces it coverage / boosting and makes it even easier to stay in on.
I guess in the end, people will come up with unexpected sets that will surprise people and make it more popular than it expected, or perhaps it will start off well and quickly fade into obscurity after people become too used to it to not have a counter for it, in a similar vein to the famous Tyraniboah and its bright-burning but short-lived use. Nobody ever expected Volcarona to be a big threat at the start of BW, and look how wrong they were. Nobody expected Alakazam to return to OU, but it did. One of us will soon be proven wrong as to whether it has a solid place in OU or is simply inferior to other choices.
"Either"? Glare has 100% accuracy now.
Why not Weakness Policy + Coil?
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58350014
Zygarde has an awesome bulk, and resist SR, take a low power SE hit like Ice Shard and you find a very cool niche.
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/pokebankoubeta-58350014
Zygarde has an awesome bulk, and resist SR, take a low power SE hit like Ice Shard and you find a very cool niche.
I personally think that Dragonite will be a better DD sweeper for any team that is willing to give it Magic Bounce/Defog/Rapid Spin support, but it might work for teams that can't manage to fit any of those things in, (or in the case of Defog, don't want to). It resists SR and is bulkier once Multiscale is broken, and sticky web might not actually effect it's sweeping ability that much because of ExtremeSpeed.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before but Land's Wrath might actually give it a usable niche in doubles, because, unlike EQ, Land's Wrath only targets adjacent foes, not everything else on the field, so you don't have to worry about accidentally killing your teammate who isn't immune to ground. It also gets Rock Slide, and a way to boost it's accuracy via Coil, so maybe a physical boosting set with Land-Slide and ESpeed might be viable once all your opponent's intimidaters are gone. It also seems to resist a lot of spread attacks, like Discharge, Heat Wave, and Rock Slide. I have played very little of doubles, so maybe someone who has might give their opinion on the matter.
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this before but Land's Wrath might actually give it a usable niche in doubles, because, unlike EQ, Land's Wrath only targets adjacent foes, not everything else on the field, so you don't have to worry about accidentally killing your teammate who isn't immune to ground. It also gets Rock Slide, and a way to boost it's accuracy via Coil, so maybe a physical boosting set with Land-Slide and ESpeed might be viable once all your opponent's intimidaters are gone. It also seems to resist a lot of spread attacks, like Discharge, Heat Wave, and Rock Slide. I have played very little of doubles, so maybe someone who has might give their opinion on the matter.
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You don't understand, that was just an example of how tough it is.
252 Attack / 100 HP / 156 Speed Adamant
This is enough to outpace the base 130s after one Dragon Dance, and Scarf Terrakion after two. You do not lose anything by investing in bulk. You are not even purposely investing in bulk, simply dumping leftover EVs into HP. Adding more speed gains you nothing (you can run a little more to outrun Scarf Latios at +2 but you're better off just damaging it and KOing it with Extremespeed at +1.
Both are OHKOed by +1 Outrage after Stealth Rocks.
How is this relevant? Mamoswine is OHKOed by +1 Outrage after Rocks and you obviously aren't going to try and set up in its face unless you have a ticket to ride the slow pony to the rubber forest that day. Mamoswine can't OHKO with even Choice Band Ice Shard so unless Zygarde is low on health Mamoswine will not successfully revenge kill it. ALSO who cares if Mamoswine can sort of check it. Zygarde does better than any other OU dragon against Mamoswine. Mamoswine's job is literally to prevent Dragon Dancing Dragons and as proof of Zygarde's power it can't even succeed here.
Zygarde is not a physical wall.
Fantastic. So run Magnezone (or Gothitelle). Also regardless of what may happen in the future Mega Gengar IS NOT UBER at the moment. You can even run HP Ice on Megagar to exterminate Landorus T in one shot. Shadow Ball puts Mamoswine in +1 Extremespeed KO range while Focus Blast OHKOs. Mega Gengar eradicates Zygarde's few counters.
I have never used the Coil Zygarde set, but I heard good things about it. Pretty much all it has to worry about after a Coil is Ice Beam and Draco Meteor. If you lack both then you will probably have difficulty bringing it down.
How is Dragon / Ground generic. Every Pokemon to have ever had that typing was either OU or Uber for a significant portion of their existence.
95 base speed is fine for a Dragon Dancer with Extremespeed.
Don't let it take Special hits then. After a Dragon Dance it has the firepower to OHKO a fair number of special attackers and despite what you just said it actually tanks special hits well. 108/121/95 is extremely good. It takes Special Hits about as well as Mew.
Landorus T outright loses to it. Hippowdon takes about 45% from +1 Leftovers Outrage (Specially Defensive Hippo is just 2HKOed and ALL Hippowdon are 2HKOed by +1 LO Outrage) and can do literally nothing useful back besides Roar. Ice Fang is usually a 3HKO. Skarmory beats it but that's sort of Skarmory's job. Run a Magnezone if you must.
So what. If absolutely needed it has LO HP Fire and Grass Knot to rip into its standard wall counters, but it doesn't need to go mixed.
It has Flygon's offensive stats and typing alongside Hippowdon's bulk AND IT GETS DRAGON DANCE. Do you not see the potential here?
Taunt bait is a retarded phrase. Set up on something that doesn't know Taunt. At +1 you won't care if you're Taunted or not. Also defensive Gyarados is 2HKOed by +1 LO Outrage or Leftovers +1 Outrage if rocks are down. Sableye is 2HKOed by +1 LO Outrage even if burned, and if it runs Lum Berry +1 Outrage usually KOs anyway.
Last I checked Tyraniboah remained relevant for at least two consecutive generations. Not bad.
It had stats equivalent to a Special Salamence and Quiver Dance alongside an amazing movepool. It was one of the most talked about new Pokemon. EVERYONE thought it would be a threat.
k
Have you played any gen 6? It's on probably half of teams right now.
At first I looked at the base stats, facepalmed and went about my way. Then I read further into the thread and realized that it actually has a pretty good movepool. Initially I just assumed it's movepool was bad because I drew connections to kyurem (wonder why!). The OP really needs to update about Zygarde's movepool. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Zygarde is the only dragon/ground poke that gets dragon dance, right? I'm assuming because I know chomp doesn't get it and I've never seen flygon use it. If this is the case, then it has a VERY solid niche in OU, seeing how good of an offensive typing dragon/ground is. Also, extra bulk is PREFERRED when we are talking dragon dance users. This guy can go far in OU.
Erm, it won't BE at +1 Because of Intimidate, so it won't get 2HKOed. Skarmory can also pack taunt and laughs at everything it tries to do.
Volcarona was talked about yes, but it was consistently deemed that it "might be good in UU" and would not be OU worthy, simply because of how everyone had preconceptions of how it would function, as Gen 4 and its Stealth Rock dominance had convinced almost everyone that despite its stats and movepool, it was hindered by its typing too heavily. It was only after SR was found to be much more difficult to keep on the field (Magic bouncers, prankster taunt, loss of rotom-A's ghost typing, etc) that Volc became popular.
Yes, I have, and its on a lot of teams, but I doubt it will remain that way for much longer. I certainly have had little difficulty so far with people's Zygardes, and I don't know if that is because it just isn't that good or if every player I face just fails with their sets and EV spreads. I've tried using it myself too, and found it underwhelming at best.
Oh, and having Flygon's offensive stats isn't something to be particularly proud of these days. Pokemon such as Mew (also base 100 attack) are shunned - even if they can use setup moves - and Zygarde will soon be used more for bulky physical tank shenanigans than setup sweeping if the metagame makes any sense in a couple of months time, rather that trying to be an offensive juggernaut when it just isn't.
I see potential but nothing outstanding aside from its physical bulk and tankiness. Maybe if its stats weren't so evenly spread I would see it in a different light, but so far all my experience fighting against it has only confirmed it isn't either particularly threatening or difficult to take down. It certainly hasn't come close to sweeping me or stopping my attackers cold like Dragonite has in the past. If I fight one that simply proves me wrong, I'll immediately retract all statements I have made in this thread, but I have neither used it with much success nor struggled much to beat opposing ones so far.
A set that isn't completely outclassed-
Zygarde@leftovers
252 HP/4 def/252 SpDef
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon tail
-Earthquake
A simple Resttalk shuffler set. It can do this better than Garchomp thanks to better defensive stats, and since the sleep counter doesn't reset when you switch out, it can retreat safely without taking much SR damage, something Dragonite can't boast of. The EVs are just placeholders really. The set is utterly walled by Togekiss though, so Mega-Gengar's a good teammate I guess, thanks to it's ability to trap and kill fairy types.
Zygarde@leftovers
252 HP/4 def/252 SpDef
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon tail
-Earthquake
A simple Resttalk shuffler set. It can do this better than Garchomp thanks to better defensive stats, and since the sleep counter doesn't reset when you switch out, it can retreat safely without taking much SR damage, something Dragonite can't boast of. The EVs are just placeholders really. The set is utterly walled by Togekiss though, so Mega-Gengar's a good teammate I guess, thanks to it's ability to trap and kill fairy types.
the set in nice, not many poks can run it outside ubers ,but a physical defensive spread is a better choice Imo,
oh and welcome in smogon T-bolt
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it can also run some speed considering that dragon tail loses its negative priority when used through sleep talk, with some speed it will outspeed un invested 100 base speed poks like rachi and celebi making zygarde a really good phraser
I mistyped, I meant +0. The damage calculation was correct however. 2HKOed.
Skarmory beats Zygarde, but if you think Taunt is the reason then you have no idea how the move is used and should stop referring to it in your arguments.
It was obviously OU from the very beginning. Anything with those stats has a solid shot at the top.
Stealth Rock if anything has been easier to keep on the field.
"Jellicent"
The vast majority of players on both PO and PS are terrible. There are a huge number of new players just starting the game that don't actually know how to play it. Your opponents are probably bad, and if you can't use Zygarde well you are probably bad. It is simple to remove his few counters (aka basically just Skarmory and Hippowdon) and then spam Dragon Dance until you can OHKO every remaining member of their team. Zygarde is a late game sweeper due to the slightly low initial damage output. Unlike Dragonite he doesn't care if rocks are down and unlike Garchomp he doesn't care about random scarfers or Lati@s.
Flygon hits hard enough. Zygarde isn't going to bash through teams at +0. This is obvious. It gets Dragon Dance though which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. It is a bulky late game sweeper that levels teams when they have taken a fair amount of prior damage. Unlike Dragonite it doesn't care if it takes any prior damage because it doesn't depend on 100% health to be significantly bulky. Unlike Dragonite it has typing that is more difficult to take advantage of.
Mew gets no useful STAB moves. Psychic does not compete with Outrage + Earthquake.
What are "physical tank shenanigans". It doesn't get Stealth Rocks or recovery. It is not a wall. You must understand this.
k
just cant see this thing failing to UU due to excellent STAB in Dragon and ground, and the powerful extreme speed for priority. This, plus the bulk and above average defensive typing will make him BL at the very least. PLUS glare is awesome. I think OU
Azumarill is immune to Outrage and Mamoswine never directly swicthes on a dragon anyways, it just revenge kills.
This was before the fairy type existed. And Flygon was instantly kicked down to UU whenever Garchomp was available in OU. Now Zygarde faces competition from both of them, and one is UU. Do the math.
Speed isn't the problem, it's the low base 100 attack. It's tied with Flygon for the weakest physically oriented dragon and it's slower than it to boot.
Mew isn't OHKO'd by Ice Beam, Moonblast and Draco Meteor, arguably the 3 best special attacks in the game now that perma-weather is gone.
Lando-T drops its Attack with Intimidate and 2HKO's at worst with HP Ice. Zygarde loses.
It doesn't have Flygon's offensive stats. In fact Flygon has the same attack and better speed. Those 5 speed points make a world of difference.
The rest of your points are just as flawed but I just pointed out the most obvious ones.
What a surprisingly underwhelming serpent. It's BST is way below that of the title Legends and the stat distribution leaves it with no particular niche. And what's up with its signature move being less powerful than EQ and having no added effect? This stinks of another Kyurem-type deal. The flavor text suggests that it has 'true power' to reveal. Flavor text can never be trusted, but I tend to believe it this time. Watch it reveal itself to be a Rayquaza clone with buffed stats to match. Aura Break<->Weather Lock; (Glaciate->Freeze Shock/Ice Burn)<->(Land's Wrath->Powerful Move); RayKyurem
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 351-413 (86.88 - 102.22%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarill still dies to Earthquake. The point stands.
As for Mamoswine, the original comment was that Mamoswine can KO Zygarde with Icicle Crash. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not a revenge kill.
Well of course Flygon was outclassed by Garchomp. Garchomp ties or beats it in every stat and has Swords Dance to boost and sweep. The only advantages Flygon had were Levitate and U-turn. Zygarde has simultaneously the special bulk of a Jirachi and more physical bulk than Hippowdon, Dragon Dance, Coil, and Extremespeed. It'll definitely face competition from Garchomp as the more offensively oriented Dragon, but if you really think it'll face legitimate competition from Flygon, you've got another thing coming.
As for the typing itself, just look at Flygon in DPP OU. It had good speed, decent Atk but with no boosting moves, and the rest of its stats were mediocre at best. Yet it still remained top tier OU because Dragon/Ground typing is just so good. As for Fairies, the only ones that resist that combination are Togekiss and Whimsicott, and honestly I can't remember ever seeing a Whimsicott during my time on PO's XY ladder.
Even a base 100 Atk stat is enough to do a lot of damage. a +1 LO Adamant Zygarde has ~90% the power of a +2 Yache Berry Garchomp, which never ran into power issues, only Zygarde also now has more speed and a lot more bulk. The fact that the extra bulk can help you net a second Dragon Dance and/or survive a faster hit that might have taken out a Garchomp in the same circumstances is a nice bonus.
Then don't keep it in on those moves. Don't try setting up on a Starmie, Sylveon, or Latios. But you're missing the point here. Jirachi and Celebi were two of the best specially bulky Pokemon in the entire BW OU metagame, and this thing matches them for special bulk while simultaneously having more physical bulk than Hippowdon. 252/252+ Zygarde is only 2HKO'd by Choice Band Terrakion's Close Combat (one of the most feared physical attacks of last generation's OU) 14% of the time even after Stealth Rock. That isn't to say that physically defensive Zygarde is its best set, but it does show how ridiculously bulky this guy is.
252+ Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 212-251 (55.64 - 65.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Landorus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 224-264 (58.48 - 68.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-T comes in as Zygarde Dragon Dances, drops it to +0 Atk, and then Landorus-T gets 2HKO'd by Outrage while it fails to get even close to a OHKO with HP Ice. Landorus-T loses.
Flygon also has no way to boost its Atk bar Hone Claws, no speed boosting move, no Extremespeed, and does not have bulk rivaling some of the greatest special and physical tanks of BW OU at the same time. Those extra speed points are literally just helping against Genesect, Hydreigon, and Haxorus, and honestly Genesect is the only one of those that I've even seen on the XY ladder (besides one SD Haxorus, which isn't revenge killing Zygarde any time soon). So you're giving up a ton of bulk, two great boosting moves, and arguably the best priority move in the game just to beat Genesect.
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The thing about comparing LO Zygarde to Yache Berry Garchomp is that LO Zygarde both lacks a Yache Berry and is taking LO damage. Both put holes in its precious defensive capabilities.
Putting Zygarde into UU would not be healthy for UU, his bulk is just too high for the amount of power he can attain. While it's true that Zygarde's power is extremely underwhelming, I think that if he were placed in UU, we would see him on every single team because he's got great stats relative to everything else in the tier. He'd be the Garchomp of UU, and that's not something we want.
We don't know what'll be in UU, but remember that this is a tier with Pokemon like Victini and Mew, and likely to get others like Metagross and Goodra. This is not the tier it was in previous gens.
Those may not be particularly great answers to Zygarde, but they demonstrate the tier's power level. Other, possibly less-obvious threats at power levels we're used to only expecting out of OU will find their way into the tier and dominate as well.
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