Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Style_Dota]

Probably my post won't be taken into consideration because I post very little, but anyways here I go:

Known facts about Mega-Gengar:

• It has 170 base Sp. Atk: While it's a very high base Sp.Atk this isn't the major concern. Gengar's all offensive subset have been proven subpar, and forgotten in favor of his more supporting role. And while it's very high, other megas have also a significant amount of BST too. Anyways, conventional Gengar does 4-6% more damage with Life Orb and has never been a problem
• It has 130 base Speed: It would be very impressive save for one thing: being a mega it means that it can't hold an item, so Choice Scarfed or +1 Speed mons still surpass him, and he's still very vulnerable to common forms of priority like Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, Aqua Jet and Shadow Sneak. Plus, Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl outspeed him, and normal Aero and Jolteon tie.
• It has Shadow Tag: This might be the decisive point of the debate. Mega Gengar can effectively trap any pokemon he wants and kill it. However, people forget that Gengar has to MegaEvolve before trapping making it very predictable and prone to being countered by a bulky pursuit user he cannot OHKO, like Assault Vest Tyranitar. Also, there have been several trapping pokemon before, like Magnezone in gen IV which would trap and kill Scizor and Skarmory 24/7 and it never was a problem. Shed Shell still exists, U-turn and Volt Switch are still common, Roar is still used in Stall teams, and Ghost pokemon are now immune to Shadow Tag.
• Very big support movepool: People argue that the main point is that he can trap and kill an entire team. However, remember that he can only have 4 attacks, so he can't be a SubSweeper, Perish Trapper, SubDisable and Destiny Bonder at the same time. It's one and just one the set that he can use, and again, after he has killed one of your pokes all you need is a Pursuit user to revenge kill him no matter what, which makes these sets extremely suicidal. This is a very important point, as you're wasting your mega slot for a suicide mega that will only take for extremely sure 1 pokemon, maybe 2 if you're good. You're trading 1-for-1, and sometimes 2-for-1, which is fair in my book. No risk, no reward
• Loses Levitate: This is another big hit for Mega Gengar. With correct predicting you can just take out him with Earthquake first, and then again, switch to something like ScarfChomp, Gliscor, Hippowdon or Tyranitar the turn he Megavolves to use Earthquake and wipe it off for good. Furthermore, coming in as a Mega already means that he is susceptible to all hazards, and since he's so frail and has to waste life in subs, he can't come in easily least he gets in priority range, can't make more subs, or simply dies. Sticky Web also renders it pretty much useless. It also can't come in that much often since he's frail and loses immunity to Ground
• It's not uncountereable: There are some 'mons there that can reliably deal with him. Assault Vest Tyranitar, Choice Banded Scizor / Mega Scizor, Assault Vest Goodra, Mega Banette or anything with Prankster, Megakanghaskan's double Sucker Punch, Choice Band Azumarril, Talonflame, Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, anything that can take a hit and retaliate with Thunder Wave, anything that can Taunt him, and to some extent, Sash users can deal with him. And of course, Mega Gengar counters Mega Gengar
• PokeBank hasn't arrived yet: This and Blaziken's ban were highly impulsive and quick in my opinion. Without PokeBank, there are a lot of pokemon, sets and abilities that can possibly deal with Gengar, particularly the genie and musketeer trio, because they're fast and powerful enough to wear a scarf and overpower him faster. Not to mention that if Terrakion uses Rock Polish, then it can Earthquake out Mega Gengar.

TL;DR: He's tricky, but not absurdly overpowered. You just have to work your brain and predict a little bit and not lose momentum. So I vote Gengarite to stay at OU.

Okay, this post made me laugh, so I'm going to respond to each of your points here.

• 170 Base Special Attack might be "underwhelming", but it's high enough to allow Gengar everything it needs to do. Also, doing 4-6% less damage without taking 10% recoil, seems like a nice trade off to me.

• Yeah, because out speeding almost the entire tier without having the disadvantage of being forcibly locked into one move is absolutely terrible.

• Yes, the first turn Mega Gengar comes in, it can't trap something, but it can come in on either a choice locked mon or a Pokemon it can revenge kill, Mega Evolve, kill it, and pose the same normal threat (how any good mega Gengar player would play it). If you're also forcing Pokemon to run Shed Shell in order to not get killed by Mega Gengar, then that's a huge issue.

• Who cares if it's suicidal? The point of Mega Gengar as a support is not to sweep, it's to remove a counter from the opponents team to allow a teammate to sweep. The fact that it guarantees the loss of an opponent's Pokemon, even at the cost of its own life, is what makes this thing questionably broken.

• Yeah, the loss of levitate to gain the ability to trap and kill almost any Pokemon it wants, I think that's not that big of a deal. If you're also switching Mega Gengar in as a switch in to something, you're using it wrong, you should be using it off of death fodder or a predicted double switch.

• Please learn the difference between a counter and a check. A counter is something that can 100% switch into a Pokemon and defeat it, while a check can simply defeat it. Now, to go over each of your "counters": Assault Vest Tyranitar needs to be careful of entry hazards and Focus Blast prediction, but it's a decent check; Choice Banded Scizor can't switch into Shadow Ball anymore, and at that point it's forced to Bullet Punch or die; Mega Scizor normally doesn't run Pursuit, so once again, Shadow Ball and switch out; Goodra has no recovery and is pitifully weak, it might not take much from Mega Gengar, but it's not doing much else; Mega Banette can switch into a Shadow Ball? Since when?; Mega Kangaskhan can actually lose to Destiny Bond Mega Gengar; Azumarill gets OHKOed by SludgeBomb iirc, so I don't think that's switching in anytime soon; Talonflame is not taking any hit whatsoever; neither is Mega Alakazam; taking a hit and paralyzing is not countering; neither is Taunting, how is that helping anyway?; Sash users are not counters, they are checks since they lose all viability if Hazards are up; OMG A SPEED TIE! THAT'S A GUARANTEED WAY TO BEAT MEGA GENGAR!!!!

• Pokebank hasn't arrived yet, but even without knowing what extra things Mega Gengar might get, we know what it has now, which makes it an unbelievably potent threat. There's also a Pokebank beta ladder on Showdown, so we are able to experience what the metagame is like, even with the inclusion of said Pokemon, who once again, cannot switch into Mega Gengar, and are not counters. The Blaziken ban was not impulsive either, since it only gained things that made it a viable supporter as well as an unbelievable offensive threat, where as the meta didn't gain anything besides one good check and a decent counter (Azu still takes a shit ton from HJK)

Your post won't be taken seriously because you don't know your correct terminology, nor do you understand how support Pokemon work.

Fuzznip's and Remedy's posts basically convinced me about my stance on this Pokemon. Yeah, it's underwhelming at the moment, but that's because we all suck at the metagame right now. Mega Gengar has the tools to become absolutely broken though, especially if someone comes up with the right support with it (Trapper Gar + Agility Lucario + DD D-Nite was something I was going to try in the near future with Hazard Support). All in all, this thing is pretty fucking stupid, and deserves to be quick banned.

 

[Dragontamer]

Gengar has easy access to Taunt, which shuts down Shuckle (assuming Mega Gengar actually WANTS to trap and kill Shuckle), not to mention I suspect Perish Trap Gengar still wins regardless. Goodra ill give you, but thats not really the point, Mega Gengar is ONLY going to be switching in on things it can trap and kill, and then its going to switch out again and do it all again. You have a Skarmory walling my Dragonite? Thats fine ill send in Mega Gengar and take that shit down, switch out, and then try taking something else down later on. This is what is frustrating about Shadow Tag users, because there is very little counterplay to them, and thus, calling Goodra a counter isn't entirely accurate, since Gengar simply won't stay in (or switch in), on something it won't beat, rather it will come in when you are in a vulnerable position, abuse your inability to switch, trap, kill, rinse and repeat. The only viable defence against this is a Pursuit user, which are few and far between, and Gengar can win against most of them. Tyranitar for instance, can Pursuit Gengar all it likes, but Gengar has the option of using Destiny Bond, and taking you down with it, in addition to the pokemon it just trap killed for a 1 for 2 trade, Scizor, if Banded, risks losing to Disable variants, and its easiy to scout for BP / Pursuit via Protect techniques.

Mega Gengar only gets to trap-kill if it stays in and uses a turn doing something. Which means TTar / Scizor will *always* get the chance to switch-in for the trap-kill. If the Gengar user decides to double-switch on you, they STILL don't have a Shadow Tag pokemon. That is the one-turn of vulnerability that you need to take out Gengar. Again, AV TTar can switch into Focus Blasts and Taunts all day long, but Mega-Gengar can't afford to let TTar in once. (Should pursuit be disabled, AV TTar still has earthquake to win 1v1)

Ferrothorn hates taking a Focus Blast / Taunt / Substitute into Perish Song / Disable variants etc etc, Scizor still needs to worry about disable, Talonflame and Aegislash might revenge kill, but Gengar isn't going to stay in anyway after its trapped and killed something, and Scarfed revenge killers lose to Protect ---> switch to resist / immunity. You don't have the option of a double switch, because Shadow Tag blocks it, always giving you the upper hand. In addition, all of those lose if Gengar managed to come in, and trap something that does nothing to it, thus gaining a free sub and rendering your attempts to revenge kill it largely useless.

Fair point. Ferrothorn's best option isn't T-Wave due to Taunt... at least not on the first turn.

Ferrothorn's best option therefore is to alternate between Gyroball and T-Wave. Ferrothorn does like 80% dmg to Mega-Gengar with Gyroball. Sub might be the best option for Gengar, which will allow Gengar to enter Mega-Form and become the dangerous revenge killer you mention. Ferrothorn can safely alternate between Gyroball and T-Wave: Gyroball to break the sub, T-Wave on the Disable / Focus Blast. If Gengar subs twice, its not like he has Leftovers to get that HP back or anything. The incoming disable will be against Ferrothorn's T-Wave, and Ferrothorn wins with Gyroball spam.

If Gengar starts off with Perish Song, all the better as Gyroball smacks him good. Unless Gengar is running Sub / Disable / Taunt (at which point, Ferrothorn doesn't have to worry about Focus Blast), Ferrothorn's Gyroball or T-Wave is going to get him.

honestly, perish song gengar is just sick. especially with voltturn support, as it can then come in on its targets for free with very little prediction needed, perish trap them, sub and protect once, and then get away scot free with plenty of hp left to start the cycle all over again. if the opponent doesnt have a pokemon that can outspeed or ohko mega gengar (and if youre smart you won't allow this, since you choose what you're trapping lol) then they're gone. i used a set of perish song, substitute, protect, shadow ball. disable and taunt are of course options over shadow ball, but i still cant bring myself to nto use 170 special attack in some way. its also really useful thanks to the brilliant neutral coverage it has, and for when you dont need gengar to trap something without wasting some of your hp. mega gengar is guaranteed a kill on any pokemon of your choice, and a second is also very likely, because often even if your opponent knows exactly what youre going to do, they have no defense against it. and to me, thats the defintion of an uber.

Then Gengar is forced to take an attack from an opponent. Lets take Ferrothorn for instance:

1. Perish Song. Ferrothorn uses Gyroball in response. On the average, Ferrothorn will do roughly 80% dmg (I think, I'll double-check when the damage calculator is back online)
2. Uhhh Substitute? Nope. Not enough HP left on the average. I guess spam protect twice and hope that Gengar doesn't die. Ferrothorn can hit Stealth Rocks if he predicts the protect / substitute (incredibly likely because of the Perish Song from turn 1)
3. 50% chance that Protect fails again, so Ferrothorn trades with Gengar 50% and gets a layer of Spikes off. Otherwise, Gengar survives, you switch to a revenge killer, and Gengar switches back in with like 8% HP after Stealth Rocks and Ferrothorn's Gyroball. Either way, Gengar can't use Substitute again, so he's more or less turned into a Shadow-Ball revenge killer.

Every time Gengar uses Perish song, it takes a hit from the opponent. So yes, Ferrothorn seems like it wins against the Perish Song varient, along with any other Sp. Def wall that can deal 75% damage to Mega Gengar. In the meantime, by choosing Mega Gengar, you've lost the ability to choose Mega-Kangaskhan.

Fuzznip's and Remedy's posts basically convinced me about my stance on this Pokemon. Yeah, it's underwhelming at the moment, but that's because we all suck at the metagame right now. Mega Gengar has the tools to become absolutely broken though, especially if someone comes up with the right support with it (Trapper Gar + Agility Lucario + DD D-Nite was something I was going to try in the near future with Hazard Support). All in all, this thing is pretty fucking stupid, and deserves to be quick banned.

Here's the thing, we're ALL worried about him theoretically. But the more practical among us are willing to wait to see him become a problem. The ONE thing we all agree on is that Mega-Gengar is NOT a practical problem on the ladder right now.

We all have excuses for it: "Oh... my opponents who use M-Gengar aren't good enough", or whatever. But there is no denying the fact that Mega-Gengar is failing to dominate the ladder.

The question of banning Gengar right now is not "Lets never consider this again", but its closer to a quick-ban. Pokebank isn't available yet, and there is no guarantee that we can even PLAY with Perish-Song Gengar... not at least until Pokebank comes out and we know the transfer mechanics 100%. Maybe Nintendo has finally decided that the Wish Chanseys given out in Gen3 were silly, and are locking them out somehow. Maybe Perish Song isn't an Egg move anymore, etc. etc.

So are we going to ban a threat that we theoretically theory-craft is a problem? Or should we focus on _real_ problems in the metagame right now, like Mega-Khan??

Being against a quick-ban is NOT the same thing as being against a longer-term ban. If you guys really think Mega-Gengar will become a problem, why not wait until your theories are confirmed correct?

 

[Style_Dota]

• Normal Gengar does more damage on average with a Life Orb attached.
• It's not terrible, but it further demonstrates that the speed is far from the issue since any scarfed mon kills it.
• If you revenge kill a pokemon with Mega Gengar as you just said, it has just accomplished his 1 kill. Now accept your fate as a Pursuit user comes and takes you out.
• I do care if it's suicidal. Things would have been different if it wasn't a mega, but it is. It's taking a mega slot from my team which I could use for more efficient megas.
• Yes, but then again it means that you just have to lose 1 pokemon in order to accomplish it. Since Gengar would never come out unless it predicts a fighting attack, it's easy to see when it's coming out.
• Dude, I shouldn't even take this point seriously, but here I go. First and foremost, any Gengar that carries Focus Blast is doing it wrong. You need Protect + Perish Song + Substitute, and you're using your last move with Focus Blast? That's delusional. It's also known as Focus Miss, mind you. Both Scizor and Tyranitar can come out after a kill and threaten with lethal thanks to Pursuit. Goodra can run a Rest Hydration set as a form of recovery, and a Draco Meteor will for sure put a huge dent on Gengar. And let's not talk about Banette and Scizor "switching in" Shadow Ball, since you seem to forget that MegaGengar has Shadow Tag, which further proves that I shouldn't take your post seriously. MegaBanette comes after a kill, and both Shadow Sneak or Taunts. Azumarrill does not get OHKO'ed with Sludge Bomb (actually yes but you know what I'm talking about) since with Huge Power, Band and STAB it OHKOes Gengar with Aqua Jet before it has a chance to do anything to it, and again, it can't switch in MegaGengar, and if it's running Sludge Bomb then it's not the perish trapper set. Refer to the same example for Talonflame. And let's not even get into that you rely on a wide variety of moves for countering all that so you can't run every one. And paralyzing a pokemon that depends on it's speed to get the job done or completely shutting off Destiny Bond and Perish Song and all other shenanigans with a Prankster Taunt is not countering? Are you kidding me? Also, apparently a speed tie is not a safe way to get rid of Mega Gengar, but assuming that Focus Blast hits + hazards to KO Assault Vest Tyranitar is.

For your first point:

• 170 Base Special Attack might be "underwhelming", but it's high enough to allow Gengar everything it needs to do. Also, doing 4-6% less damage without taking 10% recoil, seems like a nice trade off to me.

Because Gengar can't switch out from Pokemon that can kill it?...

Uhh, that point is extremely vague. An efficient support Mega to me is a Pokemon that can eliminate a counter from my opponents team so that another Pokemon can sweep. How is Mega Gengar unable to do that?

Ignoring this one, because this doesn't counter anything.

Gengar doesn't NEED to be a perish trapper. It can also be Destiny Bond + Three attacks. The fact that you assume that Gengar can only run one set in order to be efficient ruins your post right here. You also still fail to understand the difference between a counter and a check. In addition, why would I want to run Mega Banette simply to check Mega Gengar? In your words, wouldn't I want to run a more efficient Mega? Also:

Also, apparently a speed tie is not a safe way to get rid of Mega Gengar, but assuming that Focus Blast hits + hazards to KO Assault Vest Tyranitar is.

Just some simple math for you: 70% (Focus Blast accuracy) is higher than 50% (the chance of winning a speed tie)

Edit: Draco Meteor Goodra, can someone tell me if that's seriously a thing? I don't think it is :|

Edit2: Oh right, it has Shadow Tag, things can't switch into it, that was my bad, but the point is, it's incredibly easy to play around all the things you mentioned, because they're all forced to use certain moves or risk dying.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'm not sure why people think that Mega Gengar is hindered by the fact that it has to Mega evolve to be the threat that it currently is. This is not difficult to pull off whatsoever. Regular Gengar packs base 130 Special Attack and 110 Speed. These are high enough offensive stats to allow it to 1) Mega Evolve + outspeed the majority of threats in one turn, 2) destroy them with attacks coming off of base 170 Special Attack, or 3) force a switch and pound the switch-in, meaning you are often Mega evolving without taking a hit. Another point here to make is that Gengar itself is a potent threat without the Mega evolution. This means that you can pair it with Pokemon such as Garchomp, Tyranitar, Alakazam, or Lucario and bluff Choice Scarf (a common Gengar set), and then Mega evolve when your opponent doesn't expect it. This is just another strategy that makes Gengar even scarier. You have to ask yourself "Is that going to Mega evolve? What precautions should I take to prevent it from dismantling me?" It's hard to say when you're faced with these questions.

Also, I just want to pull something out posted by Jumpman16 a few years ago that I think is still perfectly valid to reference despite it being catered to past generations:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

I think we've established that Mega Gengar isn't necessarily a sweeper in the sense that it can just destroy relatively healthy teams pretty easily (Blaziken was banned because of this), because it can't. It doesn't have that kind of power. However, what it does do well is bring invaluable support to its teammates. Like it says in the characteristic, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes its teammates have a significantly easier time pulling off a sweep. Does it do this? Hell yes it does. Lucario lures in Pokemon such as Gliscor and Skarmory, but Gengar can simply capitalize on this and eliminate them from the match. This instantly opens up a Lucario sweep mid-to-late-game. Choice Band Talonflame is walled by Rotom-W and Tyranitar, but it can U-turn against these and have Gengar eliminate them from the match. Now it can spam Brave Birds or Flare Blitzes without much worry. You can basically pair Mega Gengar up with any sweeper and lure in those sweeper's check and counters, only to be taken out pretty easily and, thus, making your opponent susceptible to their sweeping ability. This doesn't even apply to just sweepers either. If you take out the opponent's check/counter to one of your walls, such as Togekiss's Tyranitar counter, Togekiss is that much harder to break down. Mega Gengar's team support is simply game-breaking and not even difficult to execute.

 

[Dragontamer]

Just some simple math for you: 70% (Focus Blast accuracy) is higher than 50% (the chance of winning a speed tie)

34.3%, the probability that Focus Blast hits the necessary 3 times to 3HKO Assault Vest TTar. That is a much lower chance than 50%... FYI.

Even if TTar is injured, the probability that Focus Blast hits 2x in a row is only 49%.

 

[Style_Dota]

34.3%, the probability that Focus Blast hits the necessary 3 times to 3HKO Assault Vest TTar. That is a much lower chance than 50%... FYI.

Even if TTar is injured, the probability that Focus Blast hits 2x in a row is only 49%.

Yeah, but then D-Bond MegaGar wins, since it's forced to attack

I think we've established that Mega Gengar isn't necessarily a sweeper in the sense that it can just destroy relatively healthy teams pretty easily (Blaziken was banned because of this), because it can't. It doesn't have that kind of power. However, what it does do well is bring invaluable support to its teammates. Like it says in the characteristic, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes its teammates have a significantly easier time pulling off a sweep. Does it do this? Hell yes it does. Lucario lures in Pokemon such as Gliscor and Skarmory, but Gengar can simply capitalize on this and eliminate them from the match. This instantly opens up a Lucario sweep mid-to-late-game. Choice Band Talonflame is walled by Rotom-W and Tyranitar, but it can U-turn against these and have Gengar eliminate them from the match. Now it can spam Brave Birds or Flare Blitzes without much worry. You can basically pair Mega Gengar up with any sweeper and lure in those sweeper's check and counters, only to be taken out pretty easily and, thus, making your opponent susceptible to their sweeping ability. This doesn't even apply to just sweepers either. If you take out the opponent's check/counter to one of your walls, such as Togekiss's Tyranitar counter, Togekiss is that much harder to break down. Mega Gengar's team support is simply game-breaking and not even difficult to execute.

This is basically the best thing. It's an unbelievable support Pokemon, which is why it's broken (which is what i said :|)

Edit:

Basically all that you said is a logical fallacy in which you assume MegaGengar has 6-7 moves, always hits when needed, has perfect predicts and your opponent is a goldfish. This kind of biased posts are the ones that will result in a Gengarite ban.

Until you know a Pokemon's set, you need to assume it has any viable move. In competitive battling, when playing against a Pokemon, you need to assume every move is going to hit in order to play, any misses means that you just got lucky. You said it can't predict because of Shadow Tag, so we both kind of should stop harping that point. What's a goldfish?

 

[Thorhammer]

Thinking it over, I do feel the need to agree that Gengarite is basically certain to be broken in any metagame where Perish Song Gengar is available. So I would not dispute a decision to ban Gengarite from Pokebank OU and to carry over that ban to regular OU upon Pokebank's release barring extraordinary circumstances keeping Perish Song Mega Gengar from actually existing.

But I still don't like the idea of a blanket ban of Gengarite from all metagames. Kalos OU is, for the next month, still our official tier; it doesn't make any sense to apply a ban based solely on circumstances from other metagames, no matter how certain we are that those circumstances will become available in the official metagame soon. And I stand by my statements that even if Gengarite might not be the best thing for the Kalos OU metagame, it's at the very least not so blatantly broken that we need to be hasty and circumvent standard suspect testing procedure. (If that's even still standard procedure anymore?) Let's remember that even though LO Gengar isn't meaningfully outdamaging Mega Gengar, the reverse is also true: Mega Gengar's 170 SpA isn't like Kyurem-W's 170 SpA; it works out in practice a lot more like LO Gengar's 130 SpA. It's not some weak offensive threat, but it's not an overwhelming one either; it's a fairly ordinary Pokemon that can also act as an effective trapper if it switches in multiple times with its weak defenses.

With that in mind, I would be disappointed if Gengarite is unnecessarily evicted from the Standard OU metagame a month early, but I also wouldn't consider it something too awful. Because, again, Perish Song-less Mega Gengar is quite ordinary. It doesn't play all that different from regular Gengar. Losing it would be yet another unfortunate blow to the minimal ban policy Smogon used to have, but in practice, it would be a minor change only relevant in the short-term anyway. So I don't personally feel a need to keep worrying about this, and I think I'll start to wrap up my participation in this discussion.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

PokeBank hasn't arrived yet: This and Blaziken's ban were highly impulsive and quick in my opinion. Without PokeBank, there are a lot of pokemon, sets and abilities that can possibly deal with Gengar, particularly the genie and musketeer trio, because they're fast and powerful enough to wear a scarf and overpower him faster. Not to mention that if Terrakion uses Rock Polish, then it can Earthquake out Mega Gengar.

The reason why we banned Blaziken was because it was absolutely broken in pre-Pokebank. Getting a Speed Boost and a Swords Dance up was pretty easy, and was able to easily OHKO everything afterwards. That's why Blaziken was banned. Saying that checks might be released isn't really a legitimate argument, as it'll still be destroying everything in the current metagame.

Now for concerning Mega Gengar, I see it in two ways. I do not believe that it should be banned until Pokebank OU has been released, as the most viable sets are Taunt and Destiny Bond with attacks, and those are easily played around. However, the current theme seems to be that everyone is looking ahead to post Pokebank OU where Perish Song + ST is broken. If we're going with this viewpoint, then hell yeah we should ban the ghost before it becomes such a big threat. But I still think we should give it a chance in pre Pokebank OU because I honestly don't find it that overwhelming. I'm not sure about how banning works, but I think that we should only ban it after Pokebank OU. In the current metagame, Mega Gengar is just another threat to think about and make sure we have a check in our team.

 

[Dragontamer]

Blaziken was clearly broken pre-pokebank and post-pokebank. Nothing was going to change the fact that he utterly destroyed teams. Every argument here about "broken Gengar" on the other hand, is assumed to have Perish Song... of which we haven't even confirmed is available. We have to assume Pokebank mechanics before the most-powerful set is even available.

Also, I just want to pull something out posted by Jumpman16 a few years ago that I think is still perfectly valid to reference despite it being catered to past generations:

I understand the ethos of referencing Jumpman16 from Gen4, but IIRC, that was the generation where Garchomp run rampant in OU, till YEARS later someone invented the ChainChomp set and it actually became a problem.

Perish Song Gengar is NOT a problem, it doesn't even exist yet. It might exist after Pokebank, but it certainly doesn't exist right now. Lets deal with it when it actually exists...

 

[Epikhairz]

I'ver heard a lot of people say that Mega Gengar gets countered on the turn it Mevolves. Well then it can just switch out and come back when convenient with the Goodra case.

As for pursuit trapping I guess a player just needs to play smart and use another move that will hit super effectively (Focus Blast in most cases) and/or hold off on Mevolving because its just as obvious when a pursuit trapper is coming in

 

[Layell]

Blaziken was clearly broken pre-pokebank and post-pokebank. Nothing was going to change the fact that he utterly destroyed teams. Every argument here about "broken Gengar" on the other hand, is assumed to have Perish Song... of which we haven't even confirmed is available. We have to assume Pokebank mechanics before the most-powerful set is even available.

Of course Perish Song will exist, even if somehow it isn't an egg move in XY, it will always be available from BW unless the system is set up to remove that specific move.

No egg moves have been removed yet, that is the precedent.

 

[Dragontamer]

As for pursuit trapping I guess a player just needs to play smart and use another move that will hit super effectively (Focus Blast in most cases) and/or hold off on Mevolving because its just as obvious when a pursuit trapper is coming in

AV TTar is 3HKOed by Focus Blast. Holding off on MEvolving is just dumb, because Gengar needs the extra Defense / Sp. Def if he wants to (maybe) survive pursuit. The best option for Gengar vs Pursuit users is to use Substitute to Mega-Evolve, and then switch out.

And then he has to hope that Sticky Web never comes out...

Of course Perish Song will exist, even if somehow it isn't an egg move in XY, it will always be available from BW unless the system is set up to remove that specific move.

Or to tag certain pokemon as "non-Kalos" and prevent them from Mega-Evolving, or any number of weird stuff that might happen. (Blue Pentagon may be a requirement for something).

Its like when everyone was sitting around assuming that Talonflame Flying Gem Acrobatics was going to own Pokebank OU, and then it was discovered that Gems are only 30% damage this generation... and it was confirmed that items cannot transfer in between generations. (so Flying gem also doesn't exist, even in post-Pokebank).

Pokebank OU doesn't exist yet, we don't know the mechanics at all.

 

[Style_Dota]

I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works. It's not meant to take hits, nor is it meant to sweep teams. It's meant for one thing, which is to eliminate a Pokemon that causes your TEAM a problem, and then allow the rest of your team to excel from there. Mega Gengar can do this almost 100% of the time.

 

[Thorhammer]

I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works. It's not meant to take hits, nor is it meant to sweep teams. It's meant for one thing, which is to eliminate a Pokemon that causes your TEAM a problem, and then allow the rest of your team to excel from there. Mega Gengar can do this almost 100% of the time.

Well, yeah. That's exactly what team members are supposed to do.

I remember seeing Jumpman's "support characteristic" quoted earlier. If that was put into effect in any way remotely resembling what it sounds like, the Uber tiers for Gen 4-5 would've been twice the sizes they ended up.

 

[ryan]

Some finals thoughts on this before I post it to Twitter/Layell posts it to Facebook.

Many of you cite ways of beating Gengar: priority, multihit moves, etc. This is fine, but beating Mega Gengar isn't the issue. The issue is making sure Mega Gengar doesn't take out exactly what it needs to in order to open up a sweep for a teammate. The only way to do this is to make sure everything on your team has one of U-turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass + a Ghost-type that can switch out of it as Baton Pass will pass Perish Song, a Shed Shell, Whirlwind or Roar, a (powerful) multi-hit move, or (powerful) priority. For Pokemon that have those, that's great! But that's not stopping Mega Gengar from trapping and taking out your Blissey, your Snorlax, your Ferrothorn, your spinner, and so on and so forth. If Mega Gengar didn't have Shadow Tag, and thus the choice of what it's taking out, sure, it wouldn't be too hard to counter, but it does. You can't consider Mega Gengar in a vacuum against any given Pokemon because it won't be fighting any given Pokemon; it will be selectively trapping and removing what it wants to.

The counters given in this thread are also generally poor ones. Of course Goodra walls Mega Gengar. Obviously Assault Vest Tyranitar walls Mega Gengar. That doesn't stop it from removing them with Perish Song. In the case of Tyranitar, it can even Disable Pursuit to escape its own Perish Song later, and even if it doesn't run Disable, you just lost your Talonflame check. Defensively walling Mega Gengar doesn't keep it from beating the Pokemon.

As Mike just posted, team support is huge with Mega Gengar. Slapping Mega Gengar onto a VoltTurn team is a pretty easy way to make sure that you can remove whatever you want to. Hell, Mega Gengar + Genesect is an easy way to open up a Genesect sweep later or at least open up massive holes in the opponent's team. If they're too afraid to switch in their Genesect check in fear of it being trapped, that means that other teammates are taking damage from U-turn every time Genesect gets in safely.

Ultimately, it's not about checking or countering Mega Gengar because you'll almost never get the upper hand against it. You can't just pick and choose what you're going to fight it with. This is what makes it uncompetitive. Pokemon is all about strategy, and a huge part of strategy is knowing that you're going to need your Heatran or your Blissey or your spinner later in the match to counter something on the opponent's team or to spin away hazards or to do any number of things, and Mega Gengar takes away this huge factor of the game and gives its user the upper hand.

 

[Pyritie]

Is this ban for pre- or post-pokebank OU? Since perish song is only available on the latter, and if it's the main problem, wouldn't it make more sense to just go for the ban there?

Of course Perish Song will exist, even if somehow it isn't an egg move in XY, it will always be available from BW unless the system is set up to remove that specific move.

No egg moves have been removed yet, that is the precedent.

Or to tag certain pokemon as "non-Kalos" and prevent them from Mega-Evolving, or any number of weird stuff that might happen. (Blue Pentagon may be a requirement for something).

Its like when everyone was sitting around assuming that Talonflame Flying Gem Acrobatics was going to own Pokebank OU, and then it was discovered that Gems are only 30% damage this generation... and it was confirmed that items cannot transfer in between generations. (so Flying gem also doesn't exist, even in post-Pokebank).

Pokebank OU doesn't exist yet, we don't know the mechanics at all.

Exactly, we have no idea what pokebank will pull until it gets here. Since this is the first gen in a while that we don't have a data dump of, and have had to figure things out by ourselves, there just might be something in the game that prevents mega-gengar from having perish song. We simply don't know.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Priority moves beat mega gengar and so do infiltrator Pokemon to prevent it from stalling behind sub. Choice scarf users like staraptor beat it. People only want mega gengar banned because it beats stall teams with its trapping ability and use of perish song. A lot of top ranking players use stall teams so they obviously want it banned. I'm pretty sure mega gengar will get banned cause I already know the top players opinions only count here on smogon. Real talk.

What. You say the top players use stall teams and that's why they want MegaGengar to be banned? Are you one of those people that seriously believe Smogon loves playing defensively even though we've had two generations where stall had simply been overwhelmed by offense? Where did you get this notion that the top players only play stall and they they'll act like crybabies every time something that kills stall pops up? Besides, even if the top players only played stall, why do you point it out as if it were a bad thing? What's with this conspiracy talk?

Besides, the risk of sounding like an asshole... did you seriously expect a competitive forum not to listen, or at least give priority to the top players? Should we also hear Joe Ladder's opinion in every single ban? I know people that believe MegaGengar's bad because it dies to +3 Gyarados, should we hear them too?


I seriously do not understand why people believe every single ban happens on a whim. It seems a ban happen because people think it's bad for the metagame, it always has to be the will of a select Illuminati group that wants to cater to themselves.

 

[Shadowlucario64]

And now you traded 1-for-1 which is the main purpose of all destiny bond pokemon and is completely fair in my book. You even get the short end because you lost your mega.

No, you trade 2-for-1 because Tyranitar doesn't get to switch in on Mega Gengar until it has already knocked out whatever it wants to knock out. Tyranitar loses even if it switches in the turn Gengar mega evolves because Gengar can just Substitute or Perish Song on the switch and then stall out the perish counter.

 

[Nitaru]

AV TTar is 3HKOed by Focus Blast. Holding off on MEvolving is just dumb, because Gengar needs the extra Defense / Sp. Def if he wants to (maybe) survive pursuit. The best option for Gengar vs Pursuit users is to use Substitute to Mega-Evolve, and then switch out.

And then he has to hope that Sticky Web never comes out...



Or to tag certain pokemon as "non-Kalos" and prevent them from Mega-Evolving, or any number of weird stuff that might happen. (Blue Pentagon may be a requirement for something).

Its like when everyone was sitting around assuming that Talonflame Flying Gem Acrobatics was going to own Pokebank OU, and then it was discovered that Gems are only 30% damage this generation... and it was confirmed that items cannot transfer in between generations. (so Flying gem also doesn't exist, even in post-Pokebank).

Pokebank OU doesn't exist yet, we don't know the mechanics at all.

AV TTar is 2hko'd by Focus Blast.

 

[Style_Dota]

Exactly, we have no idea what pokebank will pull until it gets here. Since this is the first gen in a while that we don't have a data dump of, and have had to figure things out by ourselves, there just might be something in the game that prevents mega-gengar from having perish song. We simply don't know.

By this logic, we could just ban it, and then just re-test it if by some miracle it doesn't get Perish Song

 

[Pyritie]

By this logic, we could just ban it, and then just re-test it if by some miracle it doesn't get Perish Song

Ban it from post-pokebank, you mean. (Right?)

 

[litea11111]

Personally, i've battled a fair share of Gengars. About 60% of them are Mega Gengar. Overall, they've not seem to pose a HUGE threat to my teams. However, it definitely has the potential to be dangerous. Perish Song + Shadow Tag in collaboration with Wobbuffet is plain annoying and scary. Pretty sure that at least 2 of your pokemon can be taken down. Offensive wise, Mega Gengar has the potential of sweeping through teams but only in late game.
All in all, i believe that Mega Gengar has the potential to be dangerous, its not to the extent of being banned to ubers.

 

[X5Dragon]

I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works. It's not meant to take hits, nor is it meant to sweep teams. It's meant for one thing, which is to eliminate a Pokemon that causes your TEAM a problem, and then allow the rest of your team to excel from there. Mega Gengar can do this almost 100% of the time.

It's not that he needs to do everything himself, it's that he needs team support before he can go on to trap something. Gengar for example can't operate if Sticky Web in on your field, or in case your opponent switches out to something that counters it the turn it Mega Evolves and you don't build your team to have something to tank the hit until it can switch in the next time. Even if you decide what the hell, I'm taking my counter down, you will be left with very few HP you won't be able to pull it off again, especially if there are other hazards around or your opponent pressures you and prevents another sub from going up.

Speaking about pressure, some mod said offensive teams have less trouble with MGengar with the availability of priority, prankster, multi-hits and outright outspeeding it, which is true but that doesn't mean these elements are restricted to an offensive team. Perish Stalling is in most cases taking your (Mega) pokemon down in exchange for the chance of taking the designated threat down or at the very least, "a" pokemon. Defensive teams can employ Rotom and Heatran cores to combat Talonflame sweeps but offensive players can't open a sweep for theirs? I'm not aware that trapping itself is anti meta, it is a strategy with its own rewards and sacrifices.

 

[Tomaius]

Having come up against M-Gengar multiple times on Showdown, I've never struggled to beat it like I did with Mega-Blaziken or Mega-Kangaskhan. Unlike Chandelure which had better defences, leftovers and access to calm mind, M-Gengar isn't that threatening as it can't set up much or stat boost, it can't even reliably heal.

With Perish Song, who can really say until Pokebank comes out and everyone has a chance to actually use Perish-trapper?

 

[Style_Dota]

It's not that he needs to do everything himself, it's that he needs team support before he can go on to trap something. Gengar for example can't operate if Sticky Web in on your field, or in case your opponent switches out to something that counters it the turn it Mega Evolves and you don't build your team to have something to tank the hit until it can switch in the next time. Even if you decide what the hell, I'm taking my counter down, you will be left with very few HP you won't be able to pull it off again, especially if there are other hazards around or your opponent pressures you and prevents another sub from going up.

Please tell me a viable OU Pokemon that gets Sticky Web besides Smeargle, who even then needs to decide whether he wants to get up Rocks or Sticky Web. Sticky Web is so poorly distributed that it shouldn't be broughtup as an argument. Besides, your post had absolutely no argument against the fact that Mega Gengar can eliminate a Pokemon almost 100% of the time, which is different from almost every other Perish Trapping Pokemon (being a gimmick) or Destiny Bond Pokemon (they can switch out).

Gengar almost always flawlessly performs its role, with very little to almost no Pokemon having a reliable method to completely 100% shut it down. Yeah, you can revenge it, but it's done its job already, so who gives a damn. How is that not broken?