Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Anartya]

Don't know if this has been brought up by anyone, but any pokemon with Roar and an immunity/resistance to Shadow Ball can bypass the Substitute + Protect + Perish Song set. Roar now can now go through Protect in Gen 6. I'm just mentioning this so people consider it, before the decision!

 

[X5Dragon]

It's not that the good points that are made in this thread are ignored, it's that the council most likely knows about them. Of 'course posting good points about its tiering may result in some information for the council that they haven't thought about or overlooked, in which case your post would have made an impact. It's not that the council won't take into consideration the reasons to ban or not ban Mega Gengar of the people that post here, it's that the council already knows most of those reasons.

In which case it would be infinitely better if members of the council chimed in every now and then to either discount arguments that would never be taken into consideration or give their own (personal) view of the situation so they can hear a variety of answers before retreating to their closed chambers discussion.

Sorry, I drank English tea this morning.

 

[Mood4food77]

wouldn't a megagengar set of perish song/substitute/protect/destiny bond ruin at least 1/3 of the opponents team, no matter who they have?

i mean, that's pretty significant right there and he's not even running an attack

on top of that, only megaaerodactyl, megaalakazam, and unburden hawlucha who can run taunt while being faster than him, and the prankster taunt users and that's about all who stop him

 

[Velits]

In my opinion just certain combinations should be banned from OU, not strictly the Gengarite itself. I think ST + Destiny Bond and ST + Perish Song shouldn't be allowed in the OU metagame. If MegaGengar uses any of those sets it really restricts the way you can play.

 

[sidakarya]

In my opinion just certain combinations should be banned from OU, not strictly the Gengarite itself. I think ST + Destiny Bond and ST + Perish Song shouldn't be allowed in the OU metagame. If MegaGengar uses any of those sets it really restricts the way you can play.

M-Gengar is the only one, that can use ST + Perish Song (most likely, but see above). Complex bans don't happen unless there are a multitude of Pokémon, that can use this. SmashPass is one example, as there are three potential users in RU that could use this strategy, which was considered overpowering.

Note also that Wobbuffet also has ST + Destiny Bond, but this is considered much less overpowering due to Wobbuffet's slowness and complete lack of offensive presence. Gengar really is a special case, due to the points made earlier in this thread.

 

[Mozilla Fennekin]

I just say we ban Perish Song on Megagar in PokeBank, we've established that there's no real counter to it and is basically a guaranteed kill on something. I don't see how an oldmon getting a new move/ability/type will suddenly make it balanced, either. Other than that, I don't see a big issue with him. He's good--great, even, but has notable flaws pointed out on here.

 

[Ash Borer]

Problem is, you can't switch Goodra in on Mega Gengar due to Shadow Tag so my point remains - zero counters

this is untrue, unlike other shadow taggers you have the opportunity to switch once, as it has to firstly mega evolve. On this turn you can attempt to pursuit trap it, and thus truly counter it. The issue there really arent many pursuit trappers that can do this 100% reliably, as tyranitar will always be 2hko'd by focus blast. ASsault vest scizor with pursuit is probably the closest thing to a viable counter in the game. Some lower tiered pokemon with little place in OU besides gengar counters exist as well, but are a poor argument. Zero counters is simply untrue.

 

[sidakarya]

Come to think of it, does it even matter that you need the Pokébank to get the SubDisable + Perish-trapping Gengar? Disable and Perish Song come from different lines (Grimer and Misdreavus, respectively) and this can only be done with the new Egg-move mechanics in which both genders pass down moves. And Eggs hatched in Kalos would obviously have to be "born" in Kalos, which is apparently that, what blue pentagon indicates. So, even if non-native mons are for some reason illegal (which I doubt), the Perish-trapping set would still be legal, once the Pokébank is out.

 

[farranpoison]

Come to think of it, does it even matter that you need the Pokébank to get the SubDisable + Perish-trapping Gengar? Disable and Perish Song come from different lines (Grimer and Misdreavus, respectively) and this can only be done with the new Egg-move mechanics in which both genders pass down moves. And Eggs hatched in Kalos would obviously have to be "born" in Kalos, which is apparently that, what blue pentagon indicates. So, even if non-native mons are for some reason illegal (which I doubt), the Perish-trapping set would still be legal, once the Pokébank is out.

The argument is that since Perish Song comes from a currently unreleased mon (Misdreavus) there is a chance that Gengar in 6th gen does not get Perish Song anymore as an egg move. If so, it would make all of our theories moot.

Also, I totally forgot Gengar had to get Disable as an egg move. I thought it got it naturally...

 

[TROP]

Removing an egg move won't happen unless it is legally impossible like gen IV Head Smash Nosepass.
And inb4 random shit like "but you can't get Missy in XY", before FRLG it was impossible to get Dragon dance Larvitar, but that is still an egg move in Ruby and Sapphire for Larvitar

 

[Aasgier]

The sole reason I did not have much problems on a joke team with MGengar is that I run Golem and the ladder sucks. Golem, for some reason, attracts MegaGengar and it can't really Sub in the face of a Rock Blast (especially not if Sturdy is still intact). Then KO it next turn with another Rock Blast (or Sucker Punch if Sturdy is broken because Gengar attacked with either Shadow Ball or Focus Blast (both moves 2HKO full health Golem)).

Yeah, PerishTrap Gengar is ridiculous and one of the most broken things around, and the only way to deal with it is to have nothing that cannot 2HKO it (ie, either have SE moves or powerful STAB moves), but yes, it puts a huge strain on teambuilding.

Choosing what to kill is also incredibly treatening, since many semi-offensive can easily be killed, and I believe the sole reason I did not lose many mons to it is the fact that the ladder is utterly stupid while playing it, and as such I believe banning Gengarite is the best option.

TropiOUs: Well, if GF decides Perish Song MegaGengar they might very well opt to remove it. We all thought they would not increase stats of certain Pokémon, but look what they have done.

 

[56k]

MegaGengar is one of the most viable checks to kangaskhan + lucario + faeries. Putting him on your team gives you a pretty good switch in to many otherwise dominant pokemon. The extra speed upon megaevolution is absolutely necessary to creep megalucario, and the extra SpA is necessary for bulky kangaskahns, bulky random things like bulky garchomps or heracrosses, bulky pokemon in general. LO gengar would still check faeries and normals but megalucario is faster. If the megaevolution is banned then the next best ghost to pick is normal gengar, then maybe aegislash, but instead of ground immunity he's got ground and fire weakness lol.

 

[haunter]

Noob McMeghan forgot to add a poll. Cast your vote, but remember that the poll is informal and its purpose is just to give us the idea of what the community, at large, thinks on the subject.

 

[Rubyiris]

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Destiny Bond

Hex build, Takes out, or incapacitates 2-3 pokemon, per game. Currently hovering around 1700-1800. With Thundurus being legal, priority thunder wave cripples anything Gengar would normally fear, and Hex OHKOs most things. Destiny Bond ruins one last pokemon before it's koed. It's Chandelure with better stats.

Voting for Banned in OU.

 

[haunter]

Oh, also, if it wasn't clear enough, we're asking you to give us input on the topic of whether gengarite - rectius: Mega Gengar - is overpowered/unhealthy in the current X/Y metagame, not on our tiering process in general. Please stay on topic.

 

[X5Dragon]

MGengar is great but he does face problems:

1) Priority and Multi Hit moves: The current meta lacks neither, and nearly all Gengar sets don't run bulk or enough of it to avoid death from things like Aegislash's Shadow Sneak, Talonflame Brave Bird, Azumarill's boosted AquaJet, etc. Multihit moves are found on many pokemon, for example MKangaskhan's EQ/Crunch.

2) Hazards: MGengar is susceptible to Hazards especially Stick Web which means you also need to support it.

3) Checks and Counters: Speciall Walls, Pranksters with status, Scarfers, bulky pokemon with STAB SE moves.

A lot has been said about the Perish Song trapping set, but you have to remember the following:

A) In order for it to work you need to Mega evolve first to activate the ability, which means the opponent can switch in to something that can handle it such as priority or counter. You can choose to stay and take out whatever he sends instead if you deem it worthy enough of sacrifice, but then you also have to outspeed it and use Perish Song on the switch. If you choose not to stay in, that means you have to build your team such that someone else can take the hit.

B) It is a sacrifice, the option to blow a hole or a chance to take down your sweepers main check/wall comes at a price, and even though does have Shadow Ball in it's set which is resisted only by Dark, in practice you will be pressured very quickly to use Perish song and stall immediately and end up taking only one pokemon most of the time.

Edit: Written by someone who actually runs Perish Song/Protect/Sub/Shadow Ball on his MegaGengar sets.

Removed C based on Articblast's reply but these remain facts about Gengar. If you use MGengar as a trapper/suicide pokemon to open the way for other sweepers you are forfeiting your ability to use another Mevo for the chance of taking a certain wall down and betting the other non mega sweepers can do the job, while at the same time building your team to support MGengar by taking out the aforementioned threats and checks.

If you choose to use it as an attacking force, then what separates it from similar powerhorses such as Kangaskhan and Mawile is it's ability Shadow Tag, in which case you will also be supporting MegaGengar and making sure relevant walls, priorities, pranksters and hazards are gone.

 

[ginganinja]

Gengar isn't winning vs Goodra, Mega Gengar is KOed by Infestation / Rest Shuckle outside of a Sandstorm. AV Tyranitar easily wins vs Gengar, tanking the Focus Blast as a 3HKO. Ferrothorn threatens T-Wave. Talonflame revenge kills. Aegislash revenge kills. Scizor pursuits. Scarf pokemon revenge kill easily (Scarf Chomp Earthquake is fun). I'm not saying that Mega Gengar isn't a threat... but it certainly hasn't blown holes in my team. I can think of very many Sp. Def walls that serve their job as wall, and still deal with nearly all permutations of Gengar that I can think of.

O.k im going to break this post down, because it contains a few inaccuracies. Firstly

Gengar isn't winning vs Goodra, Mega Gengar is KOed by Infestation / Rest Shuckle outside of a Sandstorm. AV Tyranitar easily wins vs Gengar, tanking the Focus Blast as a 3HKO

Gengar has easy access to Taunt, which shuts down Shuckle (assuming Mega Gengar actually WANTS to trap and kill Shuckle), not to mention I suspect Perish Trap Gengar still wins regardless. Goodra ill give you, but thats not really the point, Mega Gengar is ONLY going to be switching in on things it can trap and kill, and then its going to switch out again and do it all again. You have a Skarmory walling my Dragonite? Thats fine ill send in Mega Gengar and take that shit down, switch out, and then try taking something else down later on. This is what is frustrating about Shadow Tag users, because there is very little counterplay to them, and thus, calling Goodra a counter isn't entirely accurate, since Gengar simply won't stay in (or switch in), on something it won't beat, rather it will come in when you are in a vulnerable position, abuse your inability to switch, trap, kill, rinse and repeat. The only viable defence against this is a Pursuit user, which are few and far between, and Gengar can win against most of them. Tyranitar for instance, can Pursuit Gengar all it likes, but Gengar has the option of using Destiny Bond, and taking you down with it, in addition to the pokemon it just trap killed for a 1 for 2 trade, Scizor, if Banded, risks losing to Disable variants, and its easiy to scout for BP / Pursuit via Protect techniques.

Ferrothorn threatens T-Wave. Talonflame revenge kills. Aegislash revenge kills. Scizor pursuits. Scarf pokemon revenge kill easily (Scarf Chomp Earthquake is fun).

Ferrothorn hates taking a Focus Blast / Taunt / Substitute into Perish Song / Disable variants etc etc, Scizor still needs to worry about disable, Talonflame and Aegislash might revenge kill, but Gengar isn't going to stay in anyway after its trapped and killed something, and Scarfed revenge killers lose to Protect ---> switch to resist / immunity. You don't have the option of a double switch, because Shadow Tag blocks it, always giving you the upper hand. In addition, all of those lose if Gengar managed to come in, and trap something that does nothing to it, thus gaining a free sub and rendering your attempts to revenge kill it largely useless.

I can think of very many Sp. Def walls that serve their job as wall, and still deal with nearly all permutations of Gengar that I can think of.

Feel free to name them, because I don't know many that win against Sub Perish, or even Taunt versions.

 

[gengstar09]

People, people. Amateurs, and Noobies. Let's get one thing straight please. Mega Gengar is a trapper and trapper only. Not a revenge killer/sweeper like regular Gengar. There are only what, like 6 Pokèmon that outspeed regular Gengar, so a good player using him knows what not to face as well as, not to come In on priority/volt switch users. And a Mega Gengar sets up so easily thanks to Substitute! And with it's key immunities, this makes him even more scary!!! If the opponent switches out to a pursuit user/priority spammer just switch. SIMPLE. You already subbed up! What truly makes Mega Gengar deadly is that blistering 130 base speed combined with these tools: Taunt, Perish Song, Substitute, Protect, Pain Split, Hypnosis, Destiny Bond. You're killing Pokémon, 2 or even 3 is possible if played right. The best part is that, Mega Gengar SELECTS which Pokémon he wants to kill. The fact that stall is non existent because of MegaGengar is beyond unhealthy for any meta game. Yes MegaGengar can even shake up Ubers with Hypnosis and Perish Song along with Xerneas using Gravity for perfect accuracy. I LOVE MEGAGENGAR, but it's about time we all said goodbye.

 

[Cherub Agent]

guess i'll chime in as well. haven't really bothered to read the whole thread, so i assume the stuff im about to say has already been said

initially, i was underwhelmed by mega gengar. like many people, i saw those offensive stats it has and thought: omg ultimate special sweeper! but i forgot one really important thing. and thats that gengar is a ghost. and ghosts are SNEAKY!

after my incredible revelation, i turned to gengars support movepool, and realized that if one wishes to truly benefit from mega gengar they (hard as it may seem at the beginning) must shy away from base 170 special attack and an excellent special movepool, and instead abuse 130 base speed, a slew of support moves and the best ability in the game.

honestly, perish song gengar is just sick. especially with voltturn support, as it can then come in on its targets for free with very little prediction needed, perish trap them, sub and protect once, and then get away scot free with plenty of hp left to start the cycle all over again. if the opponent doesnt have a pokemon that can outspeed or ohko mega gengar (and if youre smart you won't allow this, since you choose what you're trapping lol) then they're gone. i used a set of perish song, substitute, protect, shadow ball. disable and taunt are of course options over shadow ball, but i still cant bring myself to nto use 170 special attack in some way. its also really useful thanks to the brilliant neutral coverage it has, and for when you dont need gengar to trap something without wasting some of your hp. mega gengar is guaranteed a kill on any pokemon of your choice, and a second is also very likely, because often even if your opponent knows exactly what youre going to do, they have no defense against it. and to me, thats the defintion of an uber.

you need insurance against strong priority of course, such as against brave bird, aqua jet and bullet punch. lol rotom-w is such an amazing partner for every bloody pokemon in this tier. it even has the slow volt switch for mega gengar :')

 

[Reymedy]

My stand : get this *thing* out of OU.

I'm happy that the council wants to speed up things. Like really.

Now onto the topic.
I saw many people (I only did read the three first pages) saying that "yea it was not so good when I was playing against it". This is one of the worst arguements ever.

Why ?
Because all we have access to at the moment, are garbage ladder games. No offense intended, that was to be expected. I spent a decent amount of time on X/Y ladders to try stuff, and I was garbage. I'm still garbage though. The people against me where using random sets, and after some games, when I was imrpoving my team, I thought to myself more than once "why was I using this retarded set?".
What I want to say is that you can't just say "yea I faced it and it was crap" because the current games are miles away from the games that will be played in some months on the smogon competitive scene. Seriously, how many 4 offensive slots Gengar did you see ?

Not even saying that we're talking about a metagame with pokemons like Genesect, Thundurus-I etc... running around freely. It's pretty messy and in my opinion, we need to get stuff out of the way asap to be able to ponder on "what is really OP?". Because that's a pretty metagame-related notion.

I saw Fuzznip's post, and honnestly it summed up pretty well the reason why Gengar has all the tools to become a retarded pokemon in OU. Now tell me that "yea in fact it was underwhelming when I faced it" as long as you want, I'm pretty sure that in the right hands, with the right set, it's gonna be totally unstoppable.

So yea, don't get fooled by what you bring as "facts" (ladder games you played), and focus on the real ones :
- It has a freaking 130 BS speed
- It has a 170 BS SpA (almost as strong as a Gengar LO with no recoil)
- It has a movepool as big as my.. very big.
- Shadow tag (o.o)

If you don't ban overpowered stuff like that now, THIS will become the standart for OU. Think about it, if you don't ban Mega Gengar, then what will you ban ? Thundurus-I looks like a fluffy, gay genius in comparison. And where is the biggest current BW OU threat (aka Keldeo) at ?

 

[Thorhammer]

Noob McMeghan forgot to add a poll. Cast your vote, but remember that the poll is informal and its purpose is just to give us the idea of what the community, at large, thinks on the subject.

This poll is very vague. It makes no mention of which OU metagame is up for dispute, even though there are two. Furthermore, it does not make any mention of the fact that what is in question is not the standard procedure for a thing looked at as unhealthy, which is a suspect test before even considering a ban, but rather the notion of Gengarite being so far past the regular standards of broken that it should circumvent this typical procedure. (That is still our standard procedure, right? I'd hate to think that we're making a regular practice of letting hasty quickbans bypass it.)

I do understand the need to keep this on-topic, but first, we must clearly establish what that topic is. There's so much confusion over what's at stake, and we all need clarification.

We could solve this easily by replacing the poll with two questions, asking specifically "Would you be in favor of quick-banning Gengarite from Kalos OU?" (Yes/No/Abstain) and "Would you be in favor of quick-banning Gengarite from Pokebank OU?" (Yes/No/Abstain).

 

[haunter]

This poll is very vague. It makes no mention of which OU metagame is up for dispute, even though there are two.

If I wanted to restrict the poll (or just the discussion) to just OU (beta) or Pokébank OU, I'd have explicitly done so. When making a point, you can make reference to both the tiers. Also, before you ask, we know that Pokébank might bring significant (or not) changes to the metagame and, for this reason, should we ban Mega Gengar, the ban might be reconsidered post-Pokébank.

Furthermore, it does not make any mention of the fact that what is in question is not the standard procedure for a thing looked at as unhealthy, which is a suspect test before even considering a ban, but rather the notion of Gengarite being so far past the regular standards of broken that it should circumvent this typical procedure. (That is still our standard procedure, right? I'd hate to think that we're making a regular practice of letting hasty quickbans bypass it.)

1) We've never managed to achieve a consensus on an objective definition of broken/unhealthy, so it's pointless to try to funnel the discussion into formal schemes that are going to be ignored by the vast majority of the userbase and that, anyway, are completely subjective;
2) you're making use of your arbitrary concept of "unhealthy" to make an argument as to why we should opt for the suspect test protocol, rather than for a quick ban. Just so you know, we've been considering putting Mega Gengar on the initial ban list, but then we chose to initially allow it to actually test the effects of Mega Gengar on the metagame. Therefore, should we decide to quick ban it, the ban should be seen as a backlash of the initial X/Y banlist;
3) expanding on the above point, while we're currently considering a quick-ban on Gengarite, we're absolutely open to other possibilities, according to outcome of this thread (and the other one posted in PR). If people present valid arguments as to why we should not quick ban Gengarite right now, then we're willing to change our minds.

Hope this clears every possible doubt on the topic.

 

[T-Bolt]

People thought Chandelure should be Ubers in Gen 5, and Mega Gengar is better than Chandy in many different ways.

So yeah, even if it didn't have access to perish song, MegaGengar should be banned because its such a great trapper. Its extensive movepool allows it to trap and kill a wide variety of pokemon. Bulky waters are taken out by thunderbolt, and so is Skarmory. some teams like Dragmag teams hate fairies, and Mega-Gengar makes a great pokemon to take them out. Hidden power may have low BP this gen, but gengar can still use it effectively to beat many different threats. Base 130 speed makes it a great late game cleaner too. If Mega-Gengar was used more, it would definitely be overcentralizing.

And why are we even talking about the turn Gengar mega-evolves? if you switch out, the pokemon you send in is going to take a powerful move coming off base 170 SpAtk. And you can always switch Mega-Gengar out if it faces a pokemon it can't handle. You can't switch out while facing it, so Mega gengar will only be facing pokemon that it can beat anyway.

 

[Salemance]

Initially when Mega Gengar was revealed, stats, ability and all, I generally didn't think much of it. I being a guy who runs many an earthquake on my team thought it just made an old enemy easier to deal with, so first battle I go in against it, it was slightly underwhelming.

But as time went on, the Mega became a giant thorn in my side.

His defensive or supporting sets truly scare me every time I face them. I have been swept by many a Gengar hiding behind a sub, either sleeping my whole team or deciding to perish song me. Part of me began just to blame it on hax with all the Hypnosis hits, but then it just got sillier when I would go and try to abuse his now Ground weakness with a scarf user, only to have him disable me after breaking his sub. It has gotten to the point to where I run at least one ghost type Pokémon to take the sleep, which works well as long as he doesn't just try to kill it, and I feel as if I am trying to over centralize my team against the thing that just seems to stop me every time without some kind of human error.

Can Mega Gengar be outplayed? Any Pokémon can in theory, but truthfully this one just eats your hopes and dream if you don't, and I think it is worth banning over its ability to be a great trapper and a great Pokémon overall. This guy already had all the tools he needed to be deadly which he used to great avail due to his ability to be OU for five gens, but now he got the icing on the cake in the form of Shadow Tag that allows him to be even better than he could have hoped to be, thus making the banning of his item needed.

 

[-Tsunami-]

Mega Gengar should definitely be banned. It can trap almost anything with ease; the main reason not to use it is just that you will not be able to use another Mega Evo on the same team, but that can be said for many Mega Evolutions. It's so fast, so strong, and Ghost is an amazing attacking type right now; add in Shadow Tag and amazing coverage options and support moves, and Mega Gengar proves just how ridiculous it is. Perish Song just basically annihilates most walls that could even hope of taking on Gengar's ridiculous coverage. The opposition is talking about switching out on the turn Mega Gengar Mega Evolves, but then the Pokemon you bring in most likely will have to take a STAB move coming off of Base 170 Special Attack; not to mention, the Gengar user can switch out too, and then proceed to come in again later in the game and trap whatever the user wants it to on your team. This could only be used as a valid argument if the Mega Gengar user couldn't switch out at all. Regardless, regular Gengar is pretty solid too, so not like you're stuck with some completely terrible Pokemon before you Mega Evolve. Arguments have been made on Pokemon which can check or counter Mega Gengar, but checking / countering something with Shadow Tag is literally impossible since it can choose what to switch in on. It can open up sweeps for many of your Pokemon rather easily, and that is what makes it problematic. Sure, it's "weak" to priority and Choice Scarf Pokemon, but it's not supposed to be a sweeper so that is not really relevant; besides, if one locks their Choice Scarf user into a move Gengar can take, your Scarfer is now dead and your team becomes severely crippled. Sure it's hit by Spikes, but it's not like it's 4x weak to Stealth Rock or anything significant; besides, Sticky Web has terrible distribution so it's not like that is too much of an issue. Mega Gengar supports one's team absurdly well due to Shadow Tag with its support options in Perish Song and moves such as Destiny Bond, and add in its amazing power, speed, and coverage and you can see why it should be banned from the OU metagame.