Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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Mario With Lasers

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I'm confused. Why do you people believe they'll remove Perish Song from Gengar's Egg Move list? It has it since GSC, it's 99.6% guaranteed to have kept it. Hell, there might be people posting in UT here that weren't even alive when Gengar started getting Perish Song. At least for PokéBank OU, we should work with the assumption Gengar will get Perish Song.
 
Please tell me a viable OU Pokemon that gets Sticky Web besides Smeargle, who even then needs to decide whether he wants to get up Rocks or Sticky Web. Sticky Web is so poorly distributed that it shouldn't be broughtup as an argument. Besides, your post had absolutely no argument against the fact that Mega Gengar can eliminate a Pokemon almost 100% of the time, which is different from almost every other Perish Trapping Pokemon (being a gimmick) or Destiny Bond Pokemon (they can switch out).
You can't exclude StickyWeb from the argument, it exists and threatens MGengar and makes it essentially worthless if it decides to go the support route. My argument is you need to support Mega Gengar for it do its job, it's not something you throw on your team without any consequences on your team building or sacrifices.
 
I vote no, purely because while Mega Gengar is powerful, it's not unstoppable. Pursuit users and priority users, namely Scizor, Kangaskhan, and Aegislash, can take it out pretty easily with a little prediction. Because Shadow Tag doesn't activate until the first full turn after Mega Evolution, it's still fairly easy to switch in a counter and whack it before it gets too tough. Its defenses are poor enough that most strong attackers can handle it, as long as they can tank a hit or switch in safely. Mega Gengar is strong, sure, but not so strong that it needs banning.
 

Layell

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Exactly, we have no idea what pokebank will pull until it gets here. Since this is the first gen in a while that we don't have a data dump of, and have had to figure things out by ourselves, there just might be something in the game that prevents mega-gengar from having perish song. We simply don't know.
We can know because I just tested it

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pokémon-battle-mechanics-research.3489239/page-45#post-4997507

Refrain from using that argument in this thread.
 
You can't exclude StickyWeb from the argument, it exists and threatens MGengar and makes it essentially worthless if it decides to go the support route. My argument is you need to support Mega Gengar for it do its job, it's not something you throw on your team without any consequences on your team building or sacrifices.
So then we can assume that Sticky Web is on your side of the field as well, no? Theorymon-ing hypothetical situations has nothing to do with supporting an argument. In addition, yes, Mega Gengar needs support, because as almost everyone who has been supporting its ban has said, it's not designed to take on teams by itself. Just because it can't be thrown on any single team without making it an auto win doesn't mean that it's not broken (you would throw Deoxys-S on a Stall team by that logic).

I vote no, purely because while Mega Gengar is powerful, it's not unstoppable. Pursuit users and priority users, namely Scizor, Kangaskhan, and Aegislash, can take it out pretty easily with a little prediction. Because Shadow Tag doesn't activate until the first full turn after Mega Evolution, it's still fairly easy to switch in a counter and whack it before it gets too tough. Its defenses are poor enough that most strong attackers can handle it, as long as they can tank a hit or switch in safely. Mega Gengar is strong, sure, but not so strong that it needs banning.
You know you can switch out of Kangaskhan and Aegislash, and then switch back in to trap something, right? Scizor also can't switch into Shadow Ball this gen, which forces it to Bullet Punch, or risk dying to Shadow Ball the next turn.
 
I agree with the OU crowd. MGengar:
  • isn't an immediate threat
  • both STABs are represented with underwhelming move power
  • both STABs are flat out inneffective against Normal and Steel (so plenty of common lures and easy prediction)
  • Assault vest dampens the power and will most commonly be used on common powerful physical tanks like Metagross and Hippowdon
  • Pursuiters still nail it (e.g. incredibly common pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar), along with Bullet Punchers
  • It's highest BP move is the horribly innaccurate Focus Blast
  • neutral to all weather teams
  • crippled by Thunder Wave
  • no Special boosting moves
  • ineffective against Baton Pass teams
  • at best it guarantees maybe one KO per game with the ST/PS combination
 
I agree with the OU crowd. MGengar:
  • isn't an immediate threat
  • both STABs are represented with underwhelming move power
  • both STABs are flat out inneffective against Normal and Steel (so plenty of common lures and easy prediction)
  • Assault vest dampens the power and will most commonly be used on common powerful physical tanks like Metagross and Hippowdon
  • Pursuiters still nail it (e.g. incredibly common pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar), along with Bullet Punchers
  • It's highest BP move is the horribly innaccurate Focus Blast
  • neutral to all weather teams
  • crippled by Thunder Wave
  • no Special boosting moves
  • ineffective against Baton Pass teams
  • at best it guarantees maybe one KO per game with the ST/PS combination
I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works. It's not meant to take hits, nor is it meant to sweep teams. It's meant for one thing, which is to eliminate a Pokemon that causes your TEAM a problem, and then allow the rest of your team to excel from there. Mega Gengar can do this almost 100% of the time.
Edit: Shadow Ball has the same Base Power as Focus Blast after STAB, and Sludge Bomb has more base power afterwards.

Edit2: P.S. Baton Pass passes out Perish Song counts, so you're forced to switch after three turns no matter what. Perish Song Celebi was used in BW to counter Baton Pass teams.

Edit3: Steel doesn't resist Ghost this gen
 
I agree with the OU crowd. MGengar:
  • isn't an immediate threat
  • both STABs are represented with underwhelming move power
  • both STABs are flat out inneffective against Normal and Steel (so plenty of common lures and easy prediction)
  • Assault vest dampens the power and will most commonly be used on common powerful physical tanks like Metagross and Hippowdon
  • Pursuiters still nail it (e.g. incredibly common pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar), along with Bullet Punchers
  • It's highest BP move is the horribly innaccurate Focus Blast
  • neutral to all weather teams
  • crippled by Thunder Wave
  • no Special boosting moves
  • ineffective against Baton Pass teams
  • at best it guarantees maybe one KO per game with the ST/PS combination
90*1.5=135
135>110
lrn 2 maths
 
I seriously do not understand why people believe every single ban happens on a whim. It seems a ban happen because people think it's bad for the metagame, it always has to be the will of a select Illuminati group that wants to cater to themselves.
What people cannot see, they will speculate. They saw Blaziken and Deoxys disappear suddenly, without even getting to see any of the talk behind it, without getting an explanation until days later, with, in the meantime, everything pertaining to the ban apparently being so secret that it couldn't even be posted in Policy Review for most of us to at least view it for ourselves. And now, once again, there's talk of a quick-ban, and while we get a warning and some time to talk it over, we still find that all the discussion leading up to this and all the discussion that will decide the matter is kept locked away. It's very disconcerting.

The suspicions don't come out of nowhere; they're a direct result of how closed-off Smogon's elite can be on tiering decisions, especially at times like this.


In retrospect I'm not sure how productive the above is, but if you're curious what the "conspiracy theorists" are thinking and why, I feel safe in saying that's what's up.
 
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I saw many people (I only did read the three first pages) saying that "yea it was not so good when I was playing against it". This is one of the worst arguements ever.
I'm inclined to disagree. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's anywhere close to "one of the worst arguments ever." We have two tools with which to make this decision-- our theorymonned knowledge and our actual experiences, so let's not entirely undercut the value of the latter...

There are things that sound absolutely brilliant in theory, but aren't flawless in practice. Wobbuffet was theory-banned during the shoddy battle days even though it seemed like generation 4's offensive threats had caught up to it; there was no statistical data to back up the argument (it wasn't being heavily used) and it was because of a vocal minority that repeatedly painted scenarios of wobbuffet's "unbeatable nature" that it ended up getting the axe.

But really, you had to play optimally to get those kinds of results. You also had to correctly anticipate the moves of your opponent to achieve the best results. The nature of the tools you were using allowed forgiveness from play errors, but at the end of things, player skill was maximizing your results.

I feel like Mega Gengar falls into a similar --although obviously not the same-- kind of camp. Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent.

You need to account for Mega Gengar in teambuilding. I know others aren't into it, but I'm a huge fan of sticky web, which allows positive-natured, fully invested base 78s to outspeed and get the jump on Mega Gengar and smash its face in, should it switch in grounded. I'm also a huge fan of the mixed, pivot aegislash, who is capable of revenge killing with shadow sneak, but-- more likely-- will punish the opponent's "free" kill, and uses gengar's switch-outs to launch impressively-powered shadow balls and sacred swords at incoming switch ins.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

I think the common thing people don't seem to get is that they're under the assumption that Mega Gengar has to do everything by itself. That's not how a support Pokemon works.
It feels true that Mega Gengar is best billed as a team player, who opens the doors for threats to take advantage of the holes it creates. But to do that, you do have to take some teambuilding into account, however minor... Mega Gengar best helps a number of key offensive mons. When you start seeing the same few together, it really drives home the impression that this is a team archetype we're talking about-- that traps and dismantles opponents-- rather than a Blakizen-esque mon that runs the show by itself. We made great strides in generation V to balance what we felt was a major characteristic of competitive play-- infinite weather-- so considering the threat this quickban would have towards other mega pokemon (and maybe you'll laugh, but also the removal of the offensive trap team archetype, if I'm not dumb and that's really a thing) makes me believe that a quickban would be a hasty decision here.

Gengar almost always flawlessly performs its role, with very little to almost no Pokemon having a reliable method to completely 100% shut it down. Yeah, you can revenge it, but it's done its job already, so who gives a damn. How is that not broken?
Getting your kill-value up-front is really strong, no question, but other Megas like Kanga deliver value that is greater and while it's not a sure thing, it'd argue it's all-but-guaranteed unless the opponent is packing specific answers.

I think Mega Gengar is insane, massively powerful, and extremely hard to deal with in the right hands. That said, I'm not sure it warrants a quickban.

Thank you for reading.
 
What people cannot see, they will speculate. They saw Blaziken and Deoxys disappear suddenly, without even getting to see any of the talk behind it, without getting an explanation until days later, with, in the meantime, everything pertaining to the ban apparently being so secret that it couldn't even be posted in Policy Review for most of us to at least view it for ourselves. And now, once again, there's talk of a quick-ban, and while we get a warning and some time to talk it over, we still find that all the discussion leading up to this and all the discussion that will decide the matter is kept locked away. It's very disconcerting.

The suspicions don't come out of nowhere; they're a direct result of how closed-off Smogon's elite can be on tiering decisions, especially at times like this.
You realize that the reason that this thread was created was because I (and almost the entire of these "elitists") also posted the same concerns as to the fact that the bans came out of nowhere? Also, the council reads this thread to get more insight, so I don't see any point of this post.
 

Soul Fly

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What people cannot see, they will speculate. They saw Blaziken and Deoxys disappear suddenly, without even getting to see any of the talk behind it, without getting an explanation until days later, with, in the meantime, everything pertaining to the ban apparently being so secret that it couldn't even be posted in Policy Review for most of us to at least view it for ourselves. And now, once again, there's talk of a quick-ban, and while we get a warning and some time to talk it over, we still find that all the discussion leading up to this and all the discussion that will decide the matter is kept locked away. It's very disconcerting.

The suspicions don't come out of nowhere; they're a direct result of how closed-off Smogon's elite can be on tiering decisions, especially at times like this.
No actually. This time you can check out the council and the policy access people discussing it in open here, after they are done canvassing opinions here. And the council posted a precise summary of why it was banned and will do the same this time too. I don't see which part of the process you aren't getting to see this time round.
 
I agree with the OU crowd. MGengar:
  • isn't an immediate threat
  • both STABs are represented with underwhelming move power
  • both STABs are flat out inneffective against Normal and Steel (so plenty of common lures and easy prediction)
  • Assault vest dampens the power and will most commonly be used on common powerful physical tanks like Metagross and Hippowdon
  • Pursuiters still nail it (e.g. incredibly common pokemon like Scizor and Tyranitar), along with Bullet Punchers
  • It's highest BP move is the horribly innaccurate Focus Blast
  • neutral to all weather teams
  • crippled by Thunder Wave
  • no Special boosting moves
  • ineffective against Baton Pass teams
  • at best it guarantees maybe one KO per game with the ST/PS combination
Pursuit is not a problem when Gengar can:

A: Sub-Disable it
B: Perish Song and stall it out
C: Destiny Bond and take out your pursuit-trapper

A lot of your other points, like the paralysis weakness, applies to a lot of other Pokémon too, not just Gengar. Also, Ghost is neutral on Steel now, and both Normal and Steel are hit hard by Focus Blast.
 
Don't you think than If they want to ban a mega stone all must be banned? all mega evolutions have hard and weak points and almost all of them have cheks and counters, mega gengar have hard points like a blazing speed and overpower sp atk, anyways, his weak point is the very frail defenses, it can be beat almost by Choice scarf users like terrakion or choice scarf chandelure (timid nature), even Gengar have perfect coverage (shadow ball, sludge bomb, focus blast and the fairy one Dazzling gleam) And the priority moves (only bullet punch and sucker punch cause its a ghost type) anyways, gengar without gengarite can run anothers items like the life orb, choice specs or even the choice scarf one, than its similar to mega gengar, i think than gengarite musn't be banned, and if you guys do that, i think than its better ban all mega stones if you do that...cause things like charizard x are unwallables and if you ban mega gengar, better ban all the mega stones dont you think guys? (sorry for my bad english i speak spanish)
 
The counters given in this thread are also generally poor ones. Of course Goodra walls Mega Gengar. Obviously Assault Vest Tyranitar walls Mega Gengar. That doesn't stop it from removing them with Perish Song. In the case of Tyranitar, it can even Disable Pursuit to escape its own Perish Song later
The damage calculator is down right now. But Goodra can always... you know, hit Gengar. Anything from Earthquake, to Outrage, to Draco Meteor surely will put a dent or maybe KO Mega-Gengar. AV Tyranitar is running 4 attacks, two of which are probably Pursuit and Earthquake. As long as AV TTar is switching between Pursuit and EQ every turn, Gengar loses.

Lets assume AV TTar is countering Gengar, which is the best case scenario.

1. TTar switches into Substitute + Mega Transform. Gengar is now behind a sub and in mega-form.
2. Gengar uses Perish Song, TTar breaks the sub with Earthquake.
3. Gengar uses Disable. TTar kills with Pursuit.

If steps 2 and 3 were Focus Blast, Mega-Gengar still dies as AV TTar is 3HKOed by Focus Blast. Even then, its only a 49% chance that both Focus Blasts actually hit.

Gengar wastes a turn on Sub, to survive the Pursuit. Then wastes a turn on Disable, while TTar KOs with Earthquake or Stone Edge (if Gengar keeps Levitate, it doesn't have the Defense to survive 0 EVed Stone Edge after losing 25% to Substitute. If Gengar goes Mega, the EQ kills it on the Disable). Sub / Disable Gengar can escape AV TTar, but it doesn't win vs AV TTar... not by a long-shot.

Its not like Gengar has room to Perish Song either of these guys. They do too much damage vs Gengar. Even the famous Perish Song set loses against proper play against AV TTar, AV Goodra, and probably AV Conkeldurr. Sure, Gengar traps and kills _passive_ walls like Skarmory, but that hasn't ever made Magnezone Uber, now has it?

and even if it doesn't run Disable, you just lost your Talonflame check. Defensively walling Mega Gengar doesn't keep it from beating the Pokemon.
I understand the theory here... but in that case, it will become obvious when Mega-Gengar is on the top of the ladder. The thing about "support pokemon" is that the argument is so round-about, that it is hard to win on pure theoretical grounds. The easiest way to prove it, is to simply wait for Mega-Gengar to enter the top of the ladder. I bet you that it will be Mega-Khan however on the top tier-teams.

Maybe after Khan is banned, we can talk about banning Mega-Gengar. But as it stands right now, losing your mega-slot to "not Mega-Khan" seems like a major setback for any top-tier team.
 
Imo the fact that ST/PS will almost never fail to take out one opponent's pokemon of your choosing is enough for it to deserve the banhammer. This is a very invaluable asset especially for strategy-based game like Pokemon. It's like, proposing to your opponent that you both leave out one pokemon from each of your team, starting with a 5v5 team instead of 6v6, except with MegaGar you can't say no and he can choose whatever pokemon he wants to leave out.

Zephyr Scarlet

switching in a megagar counter on the turn gengar mega evolves is a moot point because

Turn 4:
Player 1 switches in (MegaGar counter)
Player 2 mega evolves Gengar
MegaGengar uses Substitute

Turn 5:
Player 1's pokemon uses pursuit, breaks MegaGar's sub
Player 2 switches out MegaGar, brings in (a pokemon that can deal with MegaGar counter)

.
.
.
Turn 20
Player 2 switches in MegaGar
Player 1's current pokemon is royally screwed.
 
The damage calculator is down right now. But Goodra can always... you know, hit Gengar. Anything from Earthquake, to Outrage, to Draco Meteor surely will put a dent or maybe KO Mega-Gengar. AV Tyranitar is running 4 attacks, two of which are probably Pursuit and Earthquake. As long as AV TTar is switching between Pursuit and EQ every turn, Gengar loses.

Lets assume AV TTar is countering Gengar, which is the best case scenario.

1. TTar switches into Substitute + Mega Transform. Gengar is now behind a sub and in mega-form.
2. Gengar uses Perish Song, TTar breaks the sub with Earthquake.
3. Gengar uses Disable. TTar kills with Pursuit.

If steps 2 and 3 were Focus Blast, Mega-Gengar still dies as AV TTar is 3HKOed by Focus Blast. Even then, its only a 49% chance that both Focus Blasts actually hit.

Gengar wastes a turn on Sub, to survive the Pursuit. Then wastes a turn on Disable, while TTar KOs with Earthquake or Stone Edge (if Gengar keeps Levitate, it doesn't have the Defense to survive 0 EVed Stone Edge after losing 25% to Substitute. If Gengar goes Mega, the EQ kills it on the Disable). Sub / Disable Gengar can escape AV TTar, but it doesn't win vs AV TTar... not by a long-shot.

Its not like Gengar has room to Perish Song either of these guys. They do too much damage vs Gengar. Even the famous Perish Song set loses against proper play against AV TTar, AV Goodra, and probably AV Conkeldurr. Sure, Gengar traps and kills _passive_ walls like Skarmory, but that hasn't ever made Magnezone Uber, now has it?



I understand the theory here... but in that case, it will become obvious when Mega-Gengar is on the top of the ladder. The thing about "support pokemon" is that the argument is so round-about, that it is hard to win on pure theoretical grounds. The easiest way to prove it, is to simply wait for Mega-Gengar to enter the top of the ladder. I bet you that it will be Mega-Khan however on the top tier-teams.

Maybe after Khan is banned, we can talk about banning Mega-Gengar. But as it stands right now, losing your mega-slot to "not Mega-Khan" seems like a major setback for any top-tier team.
Again, AV TTar is 2hko'd by Focus Blast.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Shadow Tag on this thing is absolutely disgusting. It really saddens me that it has it as an ability, as it would be fun and fine without it.

Consider a situation: your remaining pokemon on your team are swept by a +1 dragonite. If your opponent has heatran and you have a choice user that uses close combat or earthquake, you cannot kill the heatran or you lose. Mega gengar creates situations similar to this just by existing. At BEST when they've got mega gengar you can trade one pokemon for another after a kill. The sheer support that this gives as well as the mindgames and "theoretical pressure" that it puts you to consistently make the right play is awful. The thing's existence basically means if you use a choiced fighting or normal move, you lose straight up. You're down one pokemon for free and zero effort. In an unskilled player's hands mega gengar can make you trade pokemon after every kill, and in a skilled player's hands the very threat of it can force you to make bad plays for fear of just losing your active pokemon.

Uber under support clause
 
I disagree. While Mega Gengar selectively picking what he wants to fight, you can switch your check into it while it megaevolves. You just listed several things that can effectively check Mega Gengar. Again, Sub Perish set does NOT have room for Disable, even if it had it can be dealt with Tyranitar. If they disable Crunch, strike with Payback. If they disable Payback, strike with Pursuit. As someone listed, Mega Mawile also checks Mega Gengar pretty well, and Chesnaught is just immune to Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge bomb, and etc. Come pokebank even an Assault Vest Heatran could scare it away with Earth Power or Roar if it wanted to. It doesn't take the mind games out of the game. If nothing it adds even more complexity because you will need to manage to keep your Mega Gengar check alive in order to take him down.

But then again, if people speak biased because they don't like complexity, exploring new unorthodox ways to deal with newer threats, or actually trying to think and predict to get rid out of it, and they like it all simple, easy and already chewed, then Gengarite will be banned for sure.



Ah, but then again, we're in the case where people forget that Gengar's mega status doesn't grant it more than 4 moves. If it's the Sub-Disable variant, it won't be Sub Perish Song. Normal Gengar can still do that. And you indeed have that turn where he actually MegaEvolves to check / kill / counter it. Also, if you were really concerned to take out Gengar, you would probably lure Disable on another move first and don't use Pursuit until the turn it switches (unless you see an opening where you can nail him).

People also seem to forget that in the turn where he uses Perish Song, he is vulnerable to an attack.
I wasn't saying Mega Gengar could do all those things at once. Those are all things Mega Gengar could with one of its many viable sets. The thing is, you don't know what set Gengar is running until it's too late and Gengar's knocked out one of your Pokémon, not to mention if Gengar gets a clean getaway, then he is free to knock out another one of the Pokémon on your team, and there is nothing you can do about it.
 

Fireburn

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The damage calculator is down right now. But Goodra can always... you know, hit Gengar. Anything from Earthquake, to Outrage, to Draco Meteor surely will put a dent or maybe KO Mega-Gengar. AV Tyranitar is running 4 attacks, two of which are probably Pursuit and Earthquake. As long as AV TTar is switching between Pursuit and EQ every turn, Gengar loses.
Using Pokemon like Goodra is just delaying the inevitable - it may be able to take hits from Gengar, but it cannot stop it from doing its job. Unless you are prepared to run AV TTar on every team, and even that can lose to Focus Blast or DBond, you are not stopping Mega Gengar.

Source on the calculations and EV's and natures of both, please. Also factor in Sandstorm.
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 204-244 (50.49 - 60.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Literally the bulkiest TTar set you can run. If it is not using AV it can't even think about beating Focus Blast MGar.
 
Why nobody mention Rotom-W?, he is probably the best Mega Gengar partner, with is Volt switch, Gengar switch in for free and trap any pokemon he wants and avoid potencial damage that can kill his set, i know this is about a single pokemon, but without the right partners Mega Gengar can struggle against some teams, not to mention those pokemon he can't trap, Scizor is other good partner with his delayed U-turn, and work almost the same as Rotom but with less bulk, pro-ban smogon members can mention this and other few partners to support his ban (it seems that more argument is not needed for some pro-ban members, but for those who need more...)
 
Except that, you know, after MegaGar is gone you can switch out your MegaGar counter. That cycle won't repeat itself more than 3 times if SR is on the field because of Gengar cutting it's own health, so I still fail to realize where's the problem.
SR is moot since it's a toss up in the air whether it'll be in the field 24/7, what with Defoggers running rampant. But that's not the point here. It doesn't matter if MegaGar counter can switch out, next time an evolved MegaGar switches in, whether as a revenge killer or a switch-in, the pokemon that's gonna be facing MegaGar is already done for.

We're not even talking about how MegaGar can gain you momentum because you can always bluff a MegaGar switch, but switch to a MegaGar counter counter, and get a free turn to set-up. But that's a rather different story.
 
Don't you think than If they want to ban a mega stone all must be banned? all mega evolutions have hard and weak points and almost all of them have cheks and counters, mega gengar have hard points like a blazing speed and overpower sp atk, anyways, his weak point is the very frail defenses, it can be beat almost by Choice scarf users like terrakion or choice scarf chandelure (timid nature), even Gengar have perfect coverage (shadow ball, sludge bomb, focus blast and the fairy one Dazzling gleam) And the priority moves (only bullet punch and sucker punch cause its a ghost type) anyways, gengar without gengarite can run anothers items like the life orb, choice specs or even the choice scarf one, than its similar to mega gengar, i think than gengarite musn't be banned, and if you guys do that, i think than its better ban all mega stones if you do that...cause things like charizard x are unwallables and if you ban mega gengar, better ban all the mega stones dont you think guys? (sorry for my bad english i speak spanish)
Most Mega Evolutions don't have access to a near-unstoppable combo. You can, after all, simply smash Mega Charizard X about the same way as most Dragon-types. My understanding is, aside from the already-banned Mega Blaziken, the only Mega Evolutions with any suspicion of being broken are Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan. Stuff like Pinsir, Heracross, and Aggron are powerful, but nowhere near broken.

Imo the fact that ST/PS will almost never fail to take out one opponent's pokemon of your choosing is enough for it to deserve the banhammer. This is a very invaluable asset especially for strategy-based game like Pokemon. It's like, proposing to your opponent that you both leave out one pokemon from each of your team, starting with a 5v5 team instead of 6v6, except with MegaGar you can't say no and he can choose whatever pokemon he wants to leave out.
One slightly abnormal thing about this situation: Mega Gengar isn't just any slot on your team; it's your Mega slot. I've seen the argument used before, for things like Wobbuffet in earlier gens, which, according to the claims, would let you give it up as a team slot to annihilate anything of your choice, which is decisively in the trapper's favor. On the other hand, Mega Gengar requires you to give up your team's Mega to eliminate something, which might be your opponent's Mega, but they don't have to let it be. It's still probably in your favor, as good strategies are. But it's not as an automatically complete of a victory because of the not-quite-equal value of the team slots unless you get a chance to trap and kill their Mega specifically.
 

Reymedy

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Zracknel : Just a quick note.
Don't take my words out of their context. Speaking of context, I don't deny the value of experience, but you have to consider in which environment this experience has taken place. And as I said, the current OU environment is messy at best, filled with overpowered threats, players testing all and nothing etc.
And when I see which Mega Gengar answers are being raised... I'm sure that if this item isn't banned right now, then it's gonna be banned later. But not banning so strong a pokemon (on paper let's assume), will set a deadly precedent for the OU suspect process.
However if the community wants to open the sluice gates of the power creep now... well that's just more suspect reqs to go for me, and a bigger delay to reach the final form of the OU metagame :)

EDIT : MoosyDoosy #247 : I invite you to read this post to find the answers to your concerns http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ion-now-with-poll.3493175/page-6#post-4997205
 
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