Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Jaroda]

*cracks knuckles*

Ooooookkkkkk, this looks like it will be fun. First off, I will try to address what I think are some logical fallacies.

1. It has Shadow Tag, you can't switch out.

Technically, you can't switch out after the first turn. Gengar has to be played REALLY well to not take unnecessary damage if it decides to switch into something, rather than revenge. And second, it HAS to run Protect to ensure no damage, and/or Substitute. The reason Substitute does not guarantee no damage is that priority moves can beat it, and there's Infiltrator as well as Roar. This is something I'll come back to later. This fact means that Gengar, outside of two moves, has to make sure he's predicting right, less he be KO'd early.

2. His options allow him to deal with anything he could want.
His movepool is indeed vast but that in and of itself isn't enough, otherwise Smeargle would be banned. Yes yes, the stats I know. He still only can run 4 moves and that only allows him to take out certain things. I'm hearing the Perish Song set being nigh uncounterable but I'll get to that. Compared to the pokemon that are actually banned already to take out most of the entire OU metagame single handedly. Gengar is dangerous, but not Deoxys - A dangerous where no matter what he runs he is so powerful.

3. He can remove the pokemon of his choice that allow for a sweep.
This was the same for Magnezone and Dugtrio like people mentioned. And they have the benefit of being able to trap immediately at least. Yeah, Gengar does have immunities on his side, but that free turn to switch is key. If he had Shadow Tag out of the gate, then I would concede he is beyond broken.

Gengar can pick and choose his battles yes, but he can't single handedly with a single set wipe out whole teams by himself like Blaziken and most Ubers would be capable of with any single set where prediction can't really help. I'm hearing all the things he can counter but he can only counter so many at once. Let's look at some threats to Gengar. And remember, most if not all of these get one switch in.

Since Perish Song seems to be the deal breaker here let's look at the possible sets. Perish Song is obviously required, as is Protect and Substitute.

If you run Disable you're going to somehow find the time to actually use Perish Song while the enemy proceeds to attack you. Assault Vest users can easily have at least two moves able to break your Subs and if you try to use Perish Song you can easily die too early. Any pokemon with a move that boosts speed will be able to outpace you and you'll die trying to use Perish Song or from using nothing but Substitute.

If you run Taunt walls and boosters are in trouble, but now you also have to hope you don't get hit. You can't disable moves anymore so you still have to Megavolve in front of their counter and escape unharmed, so Pursuit is not your friend.

If you run Destiny Bond to take something out well ok, but you're gone too and that's hardly broken when Mega Banette gets priority Destiny Bond by comparison.

And yes, Mega Gengar means no Mega anything else. Gengar can usually take out 1-2 pokemon with good play, but Mega Mawile can stop many sweepers cold with Sucker Punch and good typing and defenses too on top of that crazy attack. Also capable of getting at least that many kills. Mega Kangaskhan as was mentioned, if get's switched in, is immune to Shadow Ball and can use Scrappy before evolving if it wan't to use priority Fake Out, and can also wreck Substitutes with double Crunch and Earthquake. And is threatening to many more on your team too. Crobat speed ties and can OHKO through any Substitute so Perish Song sets are really screwed with no attack moves and can also Taunt through the Sub too. Jolteon speed ties and threatens with Shadow Ball or can Volt Switch out to a priority user. Remember, Gengar is losing HP from making Substitutes and there can easily be Stealth Rock on the field, plus Spikes and Sticky Web which he won't be immune to anymore. Being able to switch away from threats will really wear him down with that passive damage. Chesnaught is immune to Shadow Ball AND Sludge Bomb. Any Chesnaught with Stone Edge and Seed Bomb can overpower Sub/Disable. He can also lay Spikes in his face which Gengar will later have to switch into, which you can MAKE him do with Roar. Volt Switching to anything with a Scarf can lead to easy surprise kills. Charizard-Y is fairly popular meaning that you have to play around Chlorophyll pokemon as well.

Hippowdon can really check Gengar. Gengar will be taking sand damage and can easily Roar you out if you throw up a Substitute wasting your HP, your EQ you if you go for Perish Song, and use Stone Edge or Ice Fang if you Disable. Not even if he uses Energy Ball, which he shouldn't, can he OHKO standard Hippo with no SpD investment.

252 SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 140-165 (33.3 - 39.2%)
252 SpA (custom) Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%)

Plenty of Steel pokemon can run Shed Shell which isn't a horrible idea because of Magnezone too. Skarmory can lay up some Spikes and Whirlwind. He can also Brave Bird once before switching to a, say, Tyranitar.

252 SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 322-380 (96.4 - 113.7%)
252 SpA (custom) Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD (custom): 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%)

I think my point is while any one of these mon can be switched away from, or any of these items can have a different counter, or you can have another member on your team to handle it, is kind of my point. Gengar needs team building to be effective to the utmost. Well varied teams have numerous tools that can put a thorn in Gengar's side in one way or another. Gengar frankly IS reliant on prediction to be broken, which doesn't sound broken. If we have to argue that we can run this to handle threat X, and if these pokemon on the enemy's team is gone THEN Gengar is broken you can say that about anything. If I remove this wall my sweeper can sweep. If I remove that Taunter my wall can wall. This is exactly what pokemon is, good team building.

So Gengarite should be suspect tested and not instabanned for the following reasons:

- No set can handle the numerous potential threats. Too many variables have to be accounted for for Gengar to come in and receive NO damage before killing something or having to switch out.
- Not being able to trap on the first turn means you can have any one of those numerous counters do their thing, potentially giving you the time you need to set up.
- Gengar's brokeness is too reliant on prediction. It requires prediction to switch in safely, it requires prediction for what free switch in your opponent gets to make, it requires prediction of item and moves to always be able to outspeed, kill and/or trap something.
- Gengar's mega slot means you can't use any of the other really freaking powerful pokemon that can take out just as many if not more of their team. Their are lots of really strong Megas.
- Loss of Levitate means that you HAVE to run Defog or Rapid Spin to great success to get rid of Sticky Web and Spikes on top of Rocks, limiting further team reliability. Now you have to protect both your Defog user AND Mega Gengar to be able to get those "free guaranteed KOs", and fear the dreaded EdgeQuake combo.
- Gengar can switch away from threats and priority users, but how many pokemon are you sacrificing to keep Gengar safe for this "assured" kill? I would certainly regret switching away from Azumarill who gets to Belly Drum now, or Talonflame gets to Sword Dance, or Aegislash to get Swords Dance, or anything to use Dragon Dance.

The biggest double edge sword is that this is all theory for ANd against banning him. There are so many great alternative strategies in OU already that seem broken and Gengar is broken enough to counter almost all of them? So far I'm only convinced that Gengar needs smart play and team mates to handle similar capable players.

 

[yoman5]

Gengarite does not deserve to be banned. While outspeeding most of the metagame and having great coverage in 4attack or sub-3attack sets, it's not unstoppable, and doesnt trap the pokemon it comes in on unlike most shadow tag users. Its stabs are also 80 and 90 base power, nothing on the level of hydro pump or fireblast or eq or stone edge. He's powerful, yes, but so are many other special attackers, life orb alakazam being more powerful than (and nearly as fast as) mega gengar (while outspeeding mega gengar on the first turn), life orb greninja having equal or arguably greater power and coverage than a mega gengar whilst being faster than everything but an already mega'd gengar/alakazam and having access to incredible coverage on equal power with gengars moves (I'm discounting/pre-factoring protean stab here as I'm basically treating greninja as base 154 spatk for purposes of comparison here). Mega gengar is powerful, but the inability to use an item and the lack of first turn trapping should keep him in ou, in my opinion.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just a thought that I feel hasn't been brought up much--Wouldn't Volt Switch and U-Turn negate some of the issues being brought up in terms of Perish Trapping?

 

[farranpoison]

Just a thought that I feel hasn't been brought up much--Wouldn't Volt Switch and U-Turn negate some of the issues being brought up in terms of Perish Trapping?

Already been discussed. Choice band 252+ Scizor U-Turn can't break MGengar's sub half the time. And really, what smart player would try and trap an obvious Volt/Turner with MGengar anyway?

 

[Chazman]

yes it beats the perish set. but thats one set. MGengar has over a dozen different viable sets, allowing it to handle whatever different types your team needs handled. thats one of the major problems. it has so many potential sets that you have no way of knowing which one it has until it opens up, and even then you dont know what the full set is. and by the time you figure that out its too late.

 

[56k]

Shadow tag is not a broken mechanic of gen 6 it's a feature. Gen 6 is about momentum shifts, messed up speed tiers, priority moves, hazards, and troll pokemon in general. Shadow tag is a combo breaker that you can play just once in the match.

Gengar does get you a guaranteed kill if you and your opponent are both playing correctly, but it ends up being a mutual exchange where megagengar traps whatever you offered it, then gets revenge threatened/set-up-on/swept. Such revenge threats are all the counter play you need to protect your gengar-vulnerable pokemon.

 

[Subject 18]

I typically use him to beat mega kangaskhan since I can switch regular gengar in on any of m kangaskhans moves and pivot on the sucker punch to something that can deal with him. I haven't tried him against mega lucario yet but I suspect he will be able to do similar if they don't have shadow claw. I currently run either scarfed ditto or mega gengar on all of my serious teams specifically to help me fight my opponents megas.

Gengar isn't even a good switch in to beat Mega Kangaskhan when people are using Crunch nowadays. It's not even a good switch in to Lucario either since all Lucarios have a way to beat ghost types in either Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball on Nasty Plot sets or Crunch the physical sets. All you are doing is risking a Crunch, Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse. These aren't really good influences on the metagame when you say you switch in to them to deal with them and both of examples you used can easily take is out on the switch.

 

[Jaroda]

yes it beats the perish set. but thats one set. MGengar has over a dozen different viable sets, allowing it to handle whatever different types your team needs handled. thats one of the major problems. it has so many potential sets that you have no way of knowing which one it has until it opens up, and even then you dont know what the full set is. and by the time you figure that out its too late.

Well Gengar only CAN run one set, so whatever you choose to take care of there are plenty of things you can't. Gengar doesn't have close to the bulk necessary to make mistakes. If Gengar requires so much team support and clairvoyance to handle that stuff he's not broken. You have to tip-toe around Talonflame too, ensuring you keep rocks up and Rotom-W/Tyranitar doesn't die.

Plenty of pokemon have several effective sets. Tyranitar has countless and they're pretty much all good. That's an advantage, but a broken advantage? Anything can be mispredicted if you don't know what set it has.

 

[farranpoison]

Shadow tag is not a broken mechanic of gen 6 it's a feature. Gen 6 is about momentum shifts, messed up speed tiers, priority moves, hazards, and troll pokemon in general. Shadow tag is a combo breaker that you can play just once in the match.

Gengar does get you a guaranteed kill if you and your opponent are both playing correctly, but it ends up being a mutual exchange where megagengar traps whatever you offered it, then gets revenge threatened/set-up-on/swept. Such revenge threats are all the counter play you need to protect your gengar-vulnerable pokemon.

How are you offering a mon to MGengar when it can pick and choose who it wants to kill? If whatever you have out has reasonable damage output and/or is something MGengar can't deal with by its current moveset, why would any smart player bring in MGengar? It will kill off the things it knows and WANTS dead. Blissey/Skarmory preventing you from sweeping? MGengar to the rescue, and there's nothing the other player can do about it.

See, this is what you don't seem to be getting. You talk about momentum shifts, counterplay, exchanges. For any other mon, sure. But SHADOW TAG FUCKS ALL THAT UP. You CANNOT COUNTER PLAY WHEN YOU CANNOT SWITCH OUT. THERE IS NO MOMENTUM SHIFT IF YOU CANNOT EVEN SHIFT YOUR MON.

Sure, perhaps after MGengar has killed something, you send in a set-up sweeper. Any set-up sweeper has its own counters, which MGengar CAN now switch to. But wait, now you can double switch because you predict they'll switch to a counter and OH WAIT SHADOW TAG LOL.

I am really starting to lose faith in the community here. All of the points in MGengar's strengths are not about sweeping potential, or if it can kill everything, or whatever other bullshit. It's strengths lie in SHADOW TAG and the INABILITY OF THE OTHER PLAYER TO DO FUCK ALL ABOUT IT. You want to argue against MGengar's ban, then tell us how the inability to switch besides the first turn can be "countered."

 

[Ajwf]

252 SpA (custom) Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 140-165 (33.3 - 39.2%)
252 SpA (custom) Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 316-372 (75.2 - 88.5%)

Plenty of Steel pokemon can run Shed Shell which isn't a horrible idea because of Magnezone too. Skarmory can lay up some Spikes and Whirlwind. He can also Brave Bird once before switching to a, say, Tyranitar.

That calc must've not included gar's actual attack.
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 210-247 (50 - 58.8%)
If using the old calc, remember to adjust accordingly.

I think my point is while any one of these mon can be switched away from, or any of these items can have a different counter, or you can have another member on your team to handle it, is kind of my point. Gengar needs team building to be effective to the utmost. Well varied teams have numerous tools that can put a thorn in Gengar's side in one way or another. Gengar frankly IS reliant on prediction to be broken, which doesn't sound broken. If we have to argue that we can run this to handle threat X, and if these pokemon on the enemy's team is gone THEN Gengar is broken you can say that about anything. If I remove this wall my sweeper can sweep. If I remove that Taunter my wall can wall. This is exactly what pokemon is, good team building.

I feel like you took this argument in quite a few different directions in this one paragraph
1. To bold: This is true to any pokemon. Not just mega gengar, but anything in tier. I can't slap any pokemon on a team and expect it to be at it's best.

2. To italics: This is true, but would this team member be able to have any affect on the battle until gengar comes in? No, you can't risk it dying. And if mega gengar does get up and your counter isn't a pursuit trapper named Scizor (let's face it, scizor is about the best option for taking mega gengar), he can leave the field and not give you that advantage next time.

3. To Underline: This is a bit off. First, it doesn't rely on prediction once in form, as I will address again later with your final points. Come in after one of your pokemon dies, and there is no prediction. You can also just run slow volt switches as suggested beforehand. This point also has an odd second point that looks like you're trying to force him in as a sweeper. When you say "Can run to handle x threats, if these pokemon gone then gengar is broken", I think you're misconstruing the concept of mega gengar. Mega gengar on a team maximizes its potential when running to clear SPECIFIC and WELL THOUGHT OUT threats to a sweeper. Which means that it then suddenly bipasses the 4MSS that seems to be a counter argument. The threat of mega gengar has been filed as utility uber candidate, stating that such a candidate would make it incredibly easy for another pokemon to sweep.

4. The last sentence which is just plain is exactly what mega gengar does incredibly well. That IS his role.

- Gengar's brokeness is too reliant on prediction. It requires prediction to switch in safely, it requires prediction for what free switch in your opponent gets to make, it requires prediction of item and moves to always be able to outspeed, kill and/or trap something.

As stated beforehand, this is simply not true. Coming in when you'd have a revenge kill opportunity, slow uturns/volt switches or even leading with it all are examples of how mega gengar can come in with no damage taken to it. The only way to stop any of these is to carefully choose what you make kills with and lead with a mega gengar counter which may just put you at a disadvantage to an enemy hazard setter.

- Loss of Levitate means that you HAVE to run Defog or Rapid Spin to great success to get rid of Sticky Web and Spikes on top of Rocks, limiting further team reliability. Now you have to protect both your Defog user AND Mega Gengar to be able to get those "free guaranteed KOs", and fear the dreaded EdgeQuake combo.

Unless someone can prove otherwise, I argue that Sticky Web is over centralizing as an argument with only two legitimate users, neither of which probably getting OU. Even spikes can be viewed that way as defog is way too common and it is very hard to keep spikes on the field. As a stall team runner, I haven't touched spikes more than trice this generation and quickly dropped them.

- Gengar can switch away from threats and priority users, but how many pokemon are you sacrificing to keep Gengar safe for this "assured" kill? I would certainly regret switching away from Azumarill who gets to Belly Drum now, or Talonflame gets to Sword Dance, or Aegislash to get Swords Dance, or anything to use Dragon Dance.

This, however, is not valid at all. A.) Azumarill has been proven to be very weak to a healthy mega gengar. B.) All switching threats have this issue and now you're calling into question the rest of the team. The simple use of setup is not enough to say something can stay OU. Plus, as far as I know, the only dragon with priority commonly used in OU is Dnite with espeed, which mega gengar is immune to.

Gengarite does not deserve to be banned. While outspeeding most of the metagame and having great coverage in 4attack or sub-3attack sets, it's not unstoppable, and doesnt trap the pokemon it comes in on unlike most shadow tag users. Its stabs are also 80 and 90 base power, nothing on the level of hydro pump or fireblast or eq or stone edge. He's powerful, yes, but so are many other special attackers, life orb alakazam being more powerful than (and nearly as fast as) mega gengar (while outspeeding mega gengar on the first turn), life orb greninja having equal or arguably greater power and coverage than a mega gengar whilst being faster than everything but an already mega'd gengar/alakazam and having access to incredible coverage on equal power with gengars moves (I'm discounting stab here as I'm basically treating greninja as base 153 spatk for purposes of comparison here). Mega gengar is powerful, but the inability to use an item and the lack of first turn trapping should keep him in ou, in my opinion.

Again, the question of him not being as powerful as others is not the issue. Him restricting counter play/filling the requirement to uber support is. That means the real comparison would look something like "Ferrothorn is better at clearing out potential threats to sweepers than mega gengar" (which of course, ferro is not).

 

[gr8astard]

With these kind of sets and either the godlike prediction we're expected to have when arguing or the lack of skill out opponents have then obviously gengar is broken.

Plenty of pokemon have several effective sets. Tyranitar has countless and they're pretty much all good. That's an advantage, but a broken advantage? Anything can be mispredicted if you don't know what set it has.

But you can't predict/scout when you can't switch out......................

 

[BlankM]

Initially I was of the opinion that Gengarite should be quick banned, but after reading Zracknel's post I am leaning against it.

Yes I totally understand why he is detrimental to the development of defensive teams, as someone who has tried to run defensive teams this ladder only to have important walls picked off and then my next mon destiny bond'ed for a free 2 kills. Revenge/pursuit killing is not the problem as trading a crucial wall is always not in the defensive teams favor. However there are plenty of other megas that serve as great, hard to predict wallbreakers that can serve a similar purpose as well as clean out other offensive threats as well. Where as mega gar is frail and will have plenty of checks without prior sub setup, and loses to scarf users and much of the rampant priority.

So the argument here is that a good Gengar player should not put himself into these situations, but a good offensive player should always make each trade count. Hitting whatever Gengar switches out to with a powerful STAB, or setting up in the process. So to an offensive team Mega Gar is much less of a threat, as trading is simply a part of their game.

While it seems like a whole playstyle is being kept down(And honestly I think M-khan and a ton of other hard-to-wall threats are also keeping defensive teams down) it also raises importance on another style of teambuilding, balance. A well balanced team can trade with Mega Gengar without using its defensive walls entirely as a crutch. Not to mention one of the most popular defensive walls, Rotom-W being made use of on a VoltTurn team can surely give Mega Gengar trouble while he tries to do his job. The most important thing to take away from this however, is the fact that the opponent is using his mega slot on Mega Gengar while the opponent could have any other mega that inevitably ends up playing more of an impact. So while Gengar is discouraging to a team that may rely on a lot of switches to make their core a cohesive whole, the use of another mega can still turn things in your favor.

I'm not saying Mega Gengar isn't broken or whether or not hes a balanced mon, I'm simply saying I don't see him having as much a centralizing effect as other threats simply because his use of a mega slot can offset his advantage. Even with him gone defensive teams will still have to worry about M-khan, M-Mawile, predicting the Zards(So many times have I lost a wall for free not knowing which megastone he holds) etc. If however, the decision is made to ban Gengarite its a slope from there and I surely expect other stones to get the ban next.

 

[Haruno]

But you can't predict/scout when you can't switch out......................

I'm referring to the prediction/scoutig on the mega gengars side not the other way around.

 

[gr8astard]

LOL again, why do I need to predict when you can't switch out?

 

[Haruno]

Because you have one turn where you're completely vulnerable since your opp has one turn to bring in their answer to mega gar or straight out smack it with what they have in currently.

 

[farranpoison]

Because you have one turn where you're completely vulnerable since your opp has one turn to bring in their answer to mega gar or straight out smack it with what they have in currently.

1. Substitute on first turn. MGengar can now see what you bring in and then gtfo safely to kill off something later.

2. Why in the world would MGengar come in and MEvo on something that can damage it.

 

[HypoLast]

Gengar isn't even a good switch in to beat Mega Kangaskhan when people are using Crunch nowadays. It's not even a good switch in to Lucario either since all Lucarios have a way to beat ghost types in either Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball on Nasty Plot sets or Crunch the physical sets. All you are doing is risking a Crunch, Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse. These aren't really good influences on the metagame when you say you switch in to them to deal with them and both of examples you used can easily take is out on the switch.

I'm not saying Mega Gengar is or isn't broken but I think he is a healthy part of the Mega pokemon side of the metagame and I feel removing him from it would leave a hole that would warrant further bannings. This isn't to say that he should or shouldn't be banned, simply that he fills a necessary role in our current OU metagame. I'm also not saying that my strategy is optimal or that I'm a good battler (I highly doubt I could be considered particularly "good" with my records), I was simply relaying a strategy that has tended to work for me for this past month or so which supports the point I was making about Mega Gengar filling a necessary role.

 

[Upstart]

Because you have one turn where you're completely vulnerable since your opp has one turn to bring in their answer to mega gar or straight out smack it with what they have in currently.

Everyone seems to be weighting the turn of non Shadow Tag far too heavily. Gengar can activate Mega as you switch and then switch itself out the next turn. Once this turn has passed Gengar can come in and out of battle spamming shadow ball or singing songs of a pokemon's demise.

 

[Reymedy]

I know that you're trying to make a point here, but you need to be more careful about selecting your situations. Scizor simply uses U-Turn on the turn when Gengar switches away. Now Gengar is down 25% (from Substitute), 50% (from Bullet Punch), and Scizor got away completely scott free (maybe -20% if he's holding a Life Orb).

Obviously, this is a terrible way to play Mega-Gengar. It would appear that Mega-Gengar 2HKOs Scizor, but since Scizor 2HKOs with those EVs with Bullet Punch, your standard Life Orb Scizor is bringing on the pain against this particular set. The correct move on Gengar's part would be to use Shadow Ball on the switch in. Any other move (including Perish Song) results in Gengar's KO.

I think the anti-ban people in this thread are annoyed at the bad examples that keep getting brought up (yes, we get it. Some people seem to think that Thunderbolt OHKOs CharizardX, despite a Dragon Typing that offers 2x resistance >_<). I know I've made my mistakes in this thread, so I can't expect others to be perfect either. Nonetheless, these mistakes that are accruing in this thread are extremely distracting.

The Damage calculator is back up now, lets actually double-check damage results before posting, please?

In particular, I think we all agreed that perish-song Gengar was not the best way to play him anyway (and its more of a "choose a particular wall that is causing your team trouble, and nuke it to death with specially selected attacks"). So lets focus on the question: if Gengar gets suspect tested, does anyone actually think he'll remain OU?

The main concern is that suspect testing will be a waste of time, and I can respect that.

This was about Priority moves. And my point was that they're not powerful enough to keep you safe from MGengar.
Talking about U-turn, Night Slash or Razor wind is sweat and all but it's out of the topic I brought. Be more careful when you reply to a post.

 

[Jaroda]

LOL again, why do I need to predict when you can't switch out?

Again, only after the second turn. And second, you do need to know what items certain things you're trying to trap have to be effective.

I'm still hearing far too many assumptions of perfect played scenarios. What is so broken about tailoring something to take care of a specific threat on the opponent's team? Those are made all the time. And also, how effective is your Gengar still against teams that don't even have that mon and everything else? So he's really good at getting rid of something you need, that's great. That still isn't broken to the point of other Uber mon that can outright overpower the entire tier. Gengar does have 4MSS. Nobody isn't saying Gengar isn't freaking great, but we are talking broken here, and he can't carry a team and has to be played with superb intelligence to do his job.

 

[farranpoison]

1. Assuming opponent isn't scarfed/has priority.

2. Why in the world would your opponent send in something that gengar can come in and mega evoke in on?

.................

What... I...

You're saying we shouldn't send it stuff that MGengar can threaten.

Send in.

As in, we voluntarily offer mons up to other mons.

THATS NOT HOW THE GAME WORKS.

Let's not talk about MGengar for a bit here.

I play someone. He leads with Smeargle, and since I saw that in Team Preview, I guessed he would and send out a Taunter, like I dunno Sableye. He's in a bad position first turn, right? logical choice is that he'll switch then to something that can threaten Sableye. I have two choices here. I can double switch and hope what he switches in is a bad matchup against whatever I send in, or to stay in and see what he puts in, letting me see his playstyle/mindset is, to help me down the line.

Mons threaten other mons. There is no escaping that fact. If I have a mon in play, and they have a potential counter to it still in reserve, this is how the game works.

I don't know if you read that one hugeass post about what mons MGengar can threaten/defeat with the right moveset, but MGengar can fuck with a lot of mons. Sure, he can't deal with everything, because lol 4 moves, but that's not the point. If he's running a moveset, the player will know who or what mons MGengar can trap and kill.

You say don't offer a mon? How the hell you supposed to know what MGengar wants to kill without knowing its moveset. And when you do (after it has MEvo'd), oh you can switch to a counter too OH WAIT SHADOW TAG.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

So right now our ideal gengar set is

Gengar @ Gengarite
Levitate -> Shadow Tag
Timid / Modest
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe or 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe or 12 HP / 252 SpA / 204 Spe
-Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam / Sludge Bomb / Dark Pulse / Psychic
-Thunder Bolt / Focus Blast / Energy Ball / Infestation / substitute / protect
-Confuse Ray / Hypnosis / Destiny Bond / Will-o-Wisp / Toxic / Taunt / Torment / perish song
-Protect / Substitute / Hex

Well fuck, I can't think of a single mon that beats our undisputed best mega gengar set. In all seriousness though, if we really are trying to argue while using this mega gengar set then obviously it's broken but similar to the keldeo thread (that was a fucking train wreck) we're not going to get anywhere. With these kind of sets and either the godlike prediction we're expected to have when arguing or the lack of skill out opponents have then obviously gengar is broken.

No, jeez, stop that. It has been said a thousand times already. Gengar isn't taking the whole opposing team alone, he's there to open one or two holes for its team to sweep. That is, his moveset will wholly depend on its teammates. "Oh but it's the same for every other support pokémon!!!" yes, but Gengar knows what it wants to kill and, once it switches in, it will kill what it's supposed to.

 

[Jaroda]

I think the better point to make is that with so many people conceding he can only do any certain amount of things for one team at a time, this is exactly why we need suspect testing. I admit everything on my side as well as others are based on speculation. Let's see how many auto-wins this guy actually generates. Too many of these scenarios are being held in a vacuum

 

[20comer]

Gengar is not completely vulnerable before Mega Evolving. Gengar alone is already a great Pokémon that can exert pressure, at least enough to make the opponent switch out with something that is threatened and give Gengar a free turn to Mega Evolve. We all know how good Gengar was in BW (specially SubWoW Movesets, which are also usable on Mega Gengar), and except for Perish Song Movesets it doesn't change very much except for the item before it Mega Evolves. It really isn't a "free turn".
And the point here is that unless you send in a Gengar check that can Pursuit and take a hit (that also won't work against SubDisable), your opponent can switch out, and then the battle will flow until your opponent sends in Mega Gengar. You can't switch out anymore, and anything that may be weak to Gengar will be crushed along the battle. You can't react to having your team weakened and exposed to other threats. Remember: the thing about Gengar is not its sheer power or if it can 6-0 a team, but its great ability to destroy defensive cores and almost any threat it wants in the tier.

By the way, is it me or the best points are about suspecting/banning Gengarite, while in the poll the "No" option has more votes?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I think the better point to make is that with so many people conceding he can only do any certain amount of things for one team at a time, this is exactly why we need suspect testing. I admit everything on my side as well as others are based on speculation. Let's see how many auto-wins this guy actually generates. Too many of these scenarios are being held in a vacuum

I don't get it. People are saying Gengar can "only" do X out of X, Y and Z at a time, yes, but how does that add up to "we need to suspect test it because we don't know whether it's broken!"? If I say DP Garchomp can only SD or Scarf but not both, would that mean it's not broken anymore?