Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[X5Dragon]

I'm sick and tired of seeing pro-banners whine about lack of good quality posts for the pro-OU side and then demand an answer to their own points and arguments. There is a difference of not seeing and not wanting to see. All of the following posts have mentioned points such as MGengar's Item loss, lack of bulk, effect on user's teambuilding, choosing it over megas, team support required for MGengar (against hazards, checks and counters, priority, pranksters, status), predictions, metagame maturity, how it fares against offensive teams, it's role in checking prominent threats, theorymoning vs actual gameplay, effect on metagame still not clear, etc.

Jukain
anubite
X5Dragon
Zracknel
jas61292
1.
2.

Not to mention the poll which contains several well known players and tc contributers/moderators on the No ban side which is currently leading the poll. The post that is constantly referred to as the only legitimate pro-OU post has never been replied to in detail, at all. If there is no intention to actually discuss the possibility of MGengar staying in OU or otherwise then it is time to close the thread and stop insulting and wasting everyone's time.

=========

"Also, a lot of these arguments are sounding like the ones made during Keldeo's suspect test, ie. Keldeo has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter."

Also about Keldeo, guess what, Keldeo didnt make it so you couldnt switch. I assure you if it did he would have been banned, but thats besides the point. out of all of those matchups i posted, theres an immense amount of: Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave. If you wanna remove the mons that lose to the perish song set, do it, you still get a number like 65 / 99 mons fucked by these 4 moves. All perish song set and destiny bond and what not do is give Gengar EVEN MORE options to fuck shit up.

"I wasn't saying Gengar is similar to Keldeo, just the arguments but if it makes it any better here's a repost:

"Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter."

Except you ignored the part when I posted a specific set that I used for my list, with the exception of like 3 mons. So learn to read holy shit.

It's not me who need to learn to read, it is you who needs to stop jumping around.

-----

Also your Kangaskhan list is a joke. I purposely set you up on that one, because never will you be able to make a list like the one I made for Mega Gengar simply because theres nothing like Mega Gengar in terms of Shadow Tag + Power + Moveset. The list I made works for a simple reason, you dont get to switch out. With Kangaskhan, Garchomp, Heracross, Ampharos, Charizard, whatever the fuck you want, theres the chance of a switch so a list like that is pointless. Kangaskhan might beat those mons 1 on 1 but the opponent can simply bring in another one. This means you have to predict, risk vs reward, yada yada.

Kangaskan doesn't have Shadow Tag, it has Parental bond. As per the list it has tons of pokemons in which it can directly threaten and OHKO immediately (574 Atk stat right off the bat IIRC) and forces the opponent to either try to deal damage to it or risk a switch in which case Kangaskhan can easily power up and then threaten the entire meta. The list is valid and possibly undereports Kangaskhan's true threat.

And speaking about jokes and the list you keep referring to, how is Gengar going to survive an encounter against pokemon mentioned in your list and the set you mentioned like Mega Aggron, Mega Houndoom, Mega CharX, Mega Lucario, MegaKangaskhan, MegaBlastoise (cannot be OHKO'd), popular Scarved pokemon, Talonflame and a bunch of other stuff I haven't bothered to check yet?

Get this inside your skull already.

The only thing I'm getting in my skull is that you write sloppy posts without bothering to check them, don't follow your line of thought and riddle your rants with insults and petty words, in which case it is best to ignore you.

Now I can call goodday.

 

[Exeggutive]

I agree with everyone else, don't rush ahead with banning anyone yet. It isn't a good idea. But when it comes to the issue at hand:
Gengar should be OU. A lot of people don't realize that these "buffs" that he gets also give him a few weaknesses For Instance:Shadow Tag can't trap Ghost types, so bringing him in on a ghost type to trap it and kill it is unreliable now.
Shadow Tag has taken away his ground immunity and traded it with a ground weakness
His secondary STAB option is SE against fairies, but he is a Special Attacker and fairies (at least the new Pokemon) are special Walls
Mega Evolutions mechanics with speed (and possibly power) still make him easy to OHKO on the first move.
Many other mega Evolutions also give Gengar a run for his money (Mega Alakazam, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, to an extent MegaGyarados)

Theres just too much working against him for me to see him as OU.

Ok. Not trapping ghosts isn't even a big deal since mgar ohkos every ghost type in the game easuly. Gar forces you out and you are forced to take a huge hit and with gars movepool, it will hit anything in the game for atleast neutral damage. That or gar gets a free sub. The amount of free kills/turns this guy creates is unreal.

Poison Stab from 170 base spAtk kills all fairy types with a little extra damage.

Ground immunity is also irrelevant, since it slaughters every ground type in ou. Not only that but ground weaknesses are easy to overcome with the amount of levitate users in ou.

Other than mega zam, regular gar (ya regular gar is still good)or mgar can shit on all those mentioned pokes as well as 80% of the metagame.

Leaving this guy in ou is ridiculous. It kills a huge majority of the game with hardly any support or risk from the user.

 

[Dragontamer]

Just to be clear, the ban of MGengar won't make MKangaskhan more broken in any way. Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, etc will just be the next best thing if/once MGengar leaves OU. Heck regular Gengar checks Mega Kangaskhan better since it is immune to EQ (although more and more people runs Fire Punch/Crunch, but that's a different story). I am sure the council will decide to assess them in due time, but in no way does the ban of MGengar make MKangaskhan more powerful/broken than it currently is.

Sure it does. Choosing a Mega implies that you cannot choose another Mega. That is the very basis of the new game in X/Y. You can ONLY choose one Mega.

At the moment, there are two Megas that are standing head and shoulders above the rest: Mega Gengar, and Mega-Khan. Ban one without the other, and you'll make the other one far more powerful.

 

[Legitimate Username]

Just to be clear, the ban of MGengar won't make MKangaskhan more broken in any way. Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, etc will just be the next best thing if/once MGengar leaves OU. Heck regular Gengar checks Mega Kangaskhan better since it is immune to EQ (although more and more people runs Fire Punch/Crunch, but that's a different story). I am sure the council will decide to assess them in due time, but in no way does the ban of MGengar make MKangaskhan more powerful/broken than it currently is.

You misunderstand what I said. I'm just going to reiterate this point.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

There's a big difference between "Broken threat X counters broken threat Y" and "Broken threat Mega X is a big reason people don't use broken threat Mega Y more." Of course, both are extremely flawed justifications for not banning X. But considering that we have no experience dealing with the latter situation, I think that it deserves more time spent looking at it rather than just a quickban.

On a separate note, I see Gengar being broken as a given. Whether or not it gets quickbanned or not is a matter of prioritizing time saved developing the new metagame, or prioritizing a better knowledge of how the metagame is affected by a new game mechanic, Mega stones. I wouldn't necessarily be against a quickban, and I can completely understand why some people would value its advantages over those of a suspect test. But because this is the absolute first time we're dealing with Mega stones, I believe that there's more benefit to working thoroughly than to working quickly.

 

[reyscarface]

I'm sick and tired of seeing pro-banners whine about lack of good quality posts for the pro-OU side and then demand an answer to their own points and arguments. There is a difference of not seeing and not wanting to see. All of the following posts have mentioned points such as MGengar's Item loss, lack of bulk, effect on user's teambuilding, choosing it over megas, team support required for MGengar (against hazards, checks and counters, priority, pranksters, status), predictions, metagame maturity, how it fares against offensive teams, it's role in checking prominent threats, theorymoning vs actual gameplay, effect on metagame still not clear, etc.

Jukain
anubite
X5Dragon
Zracknel
jas61292
1.
2.

All of these have been addressed, and counterarguments have been thrown to them, but its funny how most of them (hint hint you for example) didnt reply to that.

Not to mention the poll which contains several well known players and tc contributers/moderators on the No ban side which is currently leading the poll. The post that is constantly referred to as the only legitimate pro-OU post has never been replied to in detail, at all. If there is no intention to actually discuss the possibility of MGengar staying in OU or otherwise then it is time to close the thread and stop insulting and wasting everyone's time.

I havent seen a single well known player be in favor of leaving Mega Gengar in OU so I dont know where the hell you got that from.


skipping the keldeo part because you really cannot get it inside of your thick skull that i used the exact same Gengar set and in no way or forme is the situation the best for gengar in moves, switches, whatever.

Kangaskan doesn't have Shadow Tag, it has Parental bond. As per the list it has tons of pokemons in which it can directly threaten and OHKO immediately (574 Atk stat right off the bat IIRC) and forces the opponent to either try to deal damage to it or risk a switch in which case Kangaskhan can easily power up and then threaten the entire meta. The list is valid and possibly undereports Kangaskhan's true threat.

and Kangaskhan has counterplay. You can have a "best move possible" when faced against a Kangaskhan, you dont when against a Gengar

And speaking about jokes and the list you keep referring to, how is Gengar going to survive an encounter against pokemon mentioned in your list and the set you mentioned like Mega Aggron, Mega Houndoom, Mega CharX, Mega Lucario, MegaKangaskhan, MegaBlastoise (cannot be OHKO'd), popular Scarved pokemon, Talonflame and a bunch of other stuff I haven't bothered to check yet?

This proves you dont know how to read. I mentioned how he does, but since you never learned how to read in school ill repeat for you.

Mega Aggron is OHKOd by Focus Blast, Mega Houndoom loses unless it has Sucker Punch, Mega Charizard is OHKOd by Thunderbolt, Mega Lucario by Focus Blast, same for Kangaskhan, and Blastoise is 2HKOd by Thunderbolt and loses unless it has Dark Pulse.

The only thing I'm getting in my skull is that you write sloppy posts without bothering to check them, don't follow your line of thought and riddle your rants with insults and petty words, in which case it is best to ignore you.

Now I can call goodday.

No, youre ignoring me, my well thought posts and other people's great posts: because you have 0 idea of how to reply to the retorts to the shitty arguments youre bringing. All that to write shenanigans in this thread that hold 0 value and show you have no understanding of how this game is played.

alexwolf EDIT: No need for personal attacks

 

[HypoLast]

I voted for no to gengarite being banned but to be clear I only think it should be allowed as long as other megas are allowed. I think mega gengar isn't the most overpowered mega and many others like kangaskhan, pinsir, and lucario should be banned with mega gengar. When you look at most of these pokemon they have stats that put them firmly with many top quality ubers threats. Of course our strongest walls are broken by mega garchomp, he's tied for 3rd highest stats in the game. The majority of megas live just barely under what makes up the core of 5th gen ubers pokemon in terms of stats. Simply making it so they don't get an item is not close to enough compensation for their raw power. Who needs life orb on their mega lucario or choice band on mega kangaskhan when you have adaptability and parental bond anyway? I agree with the people who talk about the interactions between megas when talking about whether or not to ban gengarite, I think most mega stones should be banned along with it.

 

[gr8astard]

Sure it does. Choosing a Mega implies that you cannot choose another Mega. That is the very basis of the new game in X/Y. You can ONLY choose one Mega.

At the moment, there are two Megas that are standing head and shoulders above the rest: Mega Gengar, and Mega-Khan. Ban one without the other, and you'll make the other one far more powerful.

You misunderstand what I said. I'm just going to reiterate this point.

There's a big difference between "Broken threat X counters broken threat Y" and "Broken threat Mega X is a big reason people don't use broken threat Mega Y more." Of course, both are extremely flawed justifications for not banning X. But considering that we have no experience dealing with the latter situation, I think that it deserves more time spent looking at it rather than just a quickban.

Seeing as MGengar's ability and stats make it inherently uncompetitive, it shouldn't really matter what "effects" its banning would do to the metagame, more so if all it does is make another broken threat more prominent. This is not exclusive to Mega mons, as in BW2 more people abuse Tornadus-T once Genesect got banned, Landorus-I once Tornadus-T got banned, and so on. The emergence of a new threat replacing an old, more obviously broken mon is nothing new and is a consequence of smogon's effort to build a balanced metagame, and all the Mega status does is make these threats more obvious since people feel the need to abuse a mega mon on their teams, and there is a smaller pool of mega mons to begin with.

All i'm saying is that since Mega Khan would function the exact same way with or without Mega Gengar, I fail to see why this is even being brought up at all. You can argue to quickban MGengar or do a suspect test if you feel like wasting time and effort for the exact same result, but really Mega Khan shouldn't even be brought up in this argument.

 

[Style_Dota]

Okay, people don't seem to get it.

It's not that it's exceedingly powerful, it's the fact that it has the ability to pick off any Pokemon it wants based on the right set, which provides invaluable team support.

If you make any post talking about how it's not strong enough to win games by itself, Mega Random-mon X is better, or it can't sweep (which it actually can late game by the way), please just delete it, because you obviously don't get the point that any of the pro-banners are trying to make.

 

[Colonel M]

Damn Nachos forgot me even though I argued utility before rey...

Mega Charizard is OHKOd by Thunderbolt,

Nitpick but that is for Y. He mentioned X though, but I doubt it changes the end result.

 

[Syberia]

Not trying to advocate Gengar in OU as I'm all for the ban, but you argument isn't that good for the simple reason that Gengar needs a free turn to mega-evolve before it can trap anything.

Also, ADV Dugtrio does pretty much what you claimed Mega Gengar to be the 'first in the history of competitive pokemon to do', albeit its more restrictive in what it can trap. Magneton/Magnezone to a certain extent too. But still Mega Gengar is basically those two in steroids.

Gengar has 3 immunities, numerous other resists, the ability to force switches, and access to Substitute/Protect (with the ability to still run 3 coverage moves to eliminate what it needs to eliminate), Mega Evolvig isn't the most difficult thing in the world. Blaziken was already banned due to the ease with which it gets to +2/+1, and unless everything on your team can kill Mega Gengar, it will mega-evolve. Or if something slower than regular Gengar is in kill range, it can mega-evolve and kill it on the same turn.

Magnezone is limited in its ability to trap only one type, and Dugtrio is limited in its ability to actually kill anything not weak to it. Playing or teambuilding around these two pokemon,, if they threaten you, is much easier than trying to do the same around something that traps and kills almost two-thirds of the 100 most viable pokemon.

 

[Ajwf]

It's true that Mega Gengar has no counters, but the way you wrote out that logic is really flawed and circular. Your conclusion is already one of the initial terms, so of course it will be true. This means that line 2 is useless, since if line 1 is true, of course the conclusion (which is exactly the same) is true.

I'd write it more like this:

All Gc are Ps (All Mega Gengar counters are Pokemon that can switch in)
-Ps (No Pokemon can switch in)
Therefore -Gc (There are no Mega Gengar counters)


Sorry, that was just really bugging me.

Adjusted it. Term "C" should've been the end term as the conclusion was to be "No pokemon that are counters are mega gengar counters". Which also seems a tad circular but C was defined as Ps now, so that should work.

I agree with everyone else, don't rush ahead with banning anyone yet. It isn't a good idea. But when it comes to the issue at hand:
Gengar should be OU. A lot of people don't realize that these "buffs" that he gets also give him a few weaknesses For Instance:Shadow Tag can't trap Ghost types, so bringing him in on a ghost type to trap it and kill it is unreliable now.
Shadow Tag has taken away his ground immunity and traded it with a ground weakness
His secondary STAB option is SE against fairies, but he is a Special Attacker and fairies (at least the new Pokemon) are special Walls
Mega Evolutions mechanics with speed (and possibly power) still make him easy to OHKO on the first move.
Many other mega Evolutions also give Gengar a run for his money (Mega Alakazam, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Mawile, to an extent MegaGyarados)

Theres just too much working against him for me to see him as OU.

So, issues here. First off, Ghosts are the absolute least common type (maybe fairy is less common now though...), giving you somewhere near was it 7 usable ghosts to escape mega gengar? (Rey pointed trev, Jelli, Reg. Gengar, Aegi, and gourgeist. I'd even add cofagrigus, the best kan counter).

Secondly, Shadow tag adding a ground weakness still doesn't mean much when mega gengar can pick and choose what it traps. The only thing this does is make a possible lure (I've done so with mega venusaur running both special giga drain and physical eq to tempt a perish kill from gengar).

He technically walls most fairies. Even florges, the special wall cleric, should be 2hko'd by sludge bomb.
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 192-228 (53.3 - 63.3%)
And considering most florges are physically defensive:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 248-294 (68.8 - 81.6%)

So. What was that argument again?

Saying another mega evolution can take mega gengar HAS TO BE centralizing megas. Mega kazam isn't even generally viable compared to other options.

And gengar's speed is still really fast. Don't underestimate that base 110, which is going to be invested to begin with. The threat of shadow tag also will generally give him a free turn because he'll scare out most things he comes in on.

I voted for no to gengarite being banned but to be clear I only think it should be allowed as long as other megas are allowed. I think mega gengar isn't the most overpowered mega and many others like kangaskhan, pinsir, and lucario should be banned with mega gengar. When you look at most of these pokemon they have stats that put them firmly with many top quality ubers threats. Of course our strongest walls are broken by mega garchomp, he's tied for 3rd highest stats in the game. The majority of megas live just barely under what makes up the core of 5th gen ubers pokemon in terms of stats. Simply making it so they don't get an item is not close to enough compensation for their raw power. Who needs life orb on their mega lucario or choice band on mega kangaskhan when you have adaptability and parental bond anyway? I agree with the people who talk about the interactions between megas when talking about whether or not to ban gengarite, I think most mega stones should be banned along with it.

The degree of broken should not factor in. The question of banning mega gengar is "Is it broken in the role it performs", not "How broken is it, and do others warrant a ban first?". Yes, I believe that pinsir/kan/luc have a chance to move to ubers, but how does that justify anything about mega gengar?

 

[Style_Dota]

Jukain
anubite
X5Dragon
Zracknel
jas61292
1.
2.

All of those points except for Zracknel's have been counter-argued, with no solid comeback from the non-ban side.

The only thing I'm getting in my skull is that you write sloppy posts without bothering to check them, don't follow your line of thought and riddle your rants with insults and petty words, in which case it is best to ignore you.

Now I can call goodday.

Hang on, I think you messed this up, let me fix it for you:

I have no good comeback for your argument, in which case it is best to ignore you.

Now I can call goodday.

Instead of putting everyone down, why don't you actually counter argue a solid argument when one is presented in front of your claim? reyscarface made two absolutely excellent posts (grammar aside), and you have yet to counter any of the points. You've just added other points that pushed all of Rey's points aside, but actually had zero response to them.

 

[Stone RG]

Sorry if im just repeating points that have already been said, but im gonna make my arguments on why i think Mega Gengar is an unhealthy aspect of the Pokebank OU metagame, i havent played pre-Bank, but with it only a month away from us, i think we should accept that it is the metagame were gonna be tiering officially in really few time.

Ive seen a lot of arguments on how Mega Gengar is overhyped and underwhelming where players think it should be an undisputable uber. Between the most common arguments are its relatively low damage output, at least when we take into account the fact it hits weaker than its LO regular counterpart. Another, and probably the most outragously over exxagerated ive seen is that it doesnt enter the field as Mega Gengar. Now im gonna put the points on why the benefits of using Mega Gengar would centralize notbaly the metagame around him.

First, lets take into account the most notable traits of Mega Gengar: Shadow Tag and probably the most economic and advatagous Speed Tier in the tier at the moment.

The problem a lot of us see as the broken part is Shadow Tag, an ability that completely disregards smart switching and ability to basically give off a free kill more often than not, now, im not saying that Mega Gengar doesnt require skill at all, but the benefits of using him are too much to pass by, and thats just by this simple ability. Mega Gengar, whle the most overwhelming special attacker in the game, still deals over 50% to anything not named blissey or chansey with coverage moves, which brings me to the next point.

A lot of people call them niches, not worth the time of Mega Gengar, and then you realize they are so many niches, and not really useless, for example, Sub Perish Song makes ANY single pokemon lose 1v1 on Mega Gengar, specially the so-called bane of all special attackers, Blissey gets cleaned off the field w/o the pssibility of doing jack to Gengar; Destiny Bond on a trapped pokemon coming off 130 Base Speed is nothing to scoff at either. A lot of this moves (didnt mention Pain split, Hypnosis, Taunt) will earn a completely unexpected kill the moment they are executed, now, a lot may argue Gengar cannot carry more than 4 moves, but the thing is, Gengar doesnt exactly have 4 moveslot syndrome, Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast is perfect coverage and actually pretty good damage output, and taking one or two to make it a Perish Trapper, or to make that Tyranitar pursuiting pay for it using Dbond fits perfectly in most sets.

What im trying to say, if youre not getting it, is this: Gengar earns kills incredibly easily in way too many ways, it is just as versatile as its regular forme and more, it makes a lot of players to be wary of the fact that killing a pokemon with the wrong one pretty much means an auto kill for the M Gengar user, and, even with the ''low'' damage a lot of people mention, weakening walls for M Gengar to end the job with 0 percent of failure (ok sorry forgot Focus Miss) isnt hard at all. Oh, and against offense, the most common playstyle this days, the damage otuput isnt even a problem since, after just wearing down the offensive pokes, nothing barring scarfers outrun M Gengar, nor can they take a hit from 170 base SpA. So basically, against the arguably most solid playstyle in the tier, Mega Gengar is probably the most solid mega, since not only does it take care of the mayor threats and getting rid of them, but also sweeps easily.

I think i went by the tangent by that last part, oh welp.

 

[HypoLast]

Adjusted it. Term "C" should've been the end term as the conclusion was to be "No pokemon that are counters are mega gengar counters". Which also seems a tad circular but C was defined as Ps now, so that should work.



So, issues here. First off, Ghosts are the absolute least common type (maybe fairy is less common now though...), giving you somewhere near was it 7 usable ghosts to escape mega gengar? (Rey pointed trev, Jelli, Reg. Gengar, Aegi, and gourgeist. I'd even add cofagrigus, the best kan counter).

Secondly, Shadow tag adding a ground weakness still doesn't mean much when mega gengar can pick and choose what it traps. The only thing this does is make a possible lure (I've done so with mega venusaur running both special giga drain and physical eq to tempt a perish kill from gengar).

He technically walls most fairies. Even florges, the special wall cleric, should be 2hko'd by sludge bomb.
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 192-228 (53.3 - 63.3%)
And considering most florges are physically defensive:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 248-294 (68.8 - 81.6%)

So. What was that argument again?

Saying another mega evolution can take mega gengar HAS TO BE centralizing megas. Mega kazam isn't even generally viable compared to other options.

And gengar's speed is still really fast. Don't underestimate that base 110, which is going to be invested to begin with. The threat of shadow tag also will generally give him a free turn because he'll scare out most things he comes in on.


The degree of broken should not factor in. The question of banning mega gengar is "Is it broken in the role it performs", not "How broken is it, and do others warrant a ban first?". Yes, I believe that pinsir/kan/luc have a chance to move to ubers, but how does that justify anything about mega gengar?

When considering whether to ban mega gengar we need to consider him in the context of the entire metagame. If he is one of the few viable ways to deal with some of the threats that exist in ou that I outlined, which I believe he is, then he is playing an important role and shouldn't be banned without considering what a lack of mega gengar in ou would unleash. The point I was trying to make wasn't that we should necessarily ban mega gengar as much as that we should not ban him unless we also seriously consider banning many other main mega pokemon threats.

 

[Reymedy]

I'm sick and tired of seeing pro-banners whine about lack of good quality posts for the pro-OU side and then demand an answer to their own points and arguments. There is a difference of not seeing and not wanting to see. All of the following posts have mentioned points such as MGengar's Item loss, lack of bulk, effect on user's teambuilding, choosing it over megas, team support required for MGengar (against hazards, checks and counters, priority, pranksters, status), predictions, metagame maturity, how it fares against offensive teams, it's role in checking prominent threats, theorymoning vs actual gameplay, effect on metagame still not clear, etc.

Jukain
anubite
X5Dragon
Zracknel
jas61292
1.
2.

Not to mention the poll which contains several well known players and tc contributers/moderators on the No ban side which is currently leading the poll. The post that is constantly referred to as the only legitimate pro-OU post has never been replied to in detail, at all. If there is no intention to actually discuss the possibility of MGengar staying in OU or otherwise then it is time to close the thread and stop insulting and wasting everyone's time.

=========

"Also, a lot of these arguments are sounding like the ones made during Keldeo's suspect test, ie. Keldeo has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter."



"I wasn't saying Gengar is similar to Keldeo, just the arguments but if it makes it any better here's a repost:

"Gengar has always the right moves and the right items and switch in situations at the right times while the opponent is always exposed and has nothing to switch to and the opponent has neither priority, status, abilities or pokemon that can stop it's sweep or check it/counter."




It's not me who need to learn to read, it is you who needs to stop jumping around.

-----



Kangaskan doesn't have Shadow Tag, it has Parental bond. As per the list it has tons of pokemons in which it can directly threaten and OHKO immediately (574 Atk stat right off the bat IIRC) and forces the opponent to either try to deal damage to it or risk a switch in which case Kangaskhan can easily power up and then threaten the entire meta. The list is valid and possibly undereports Kangaskhan's true threat.

And speaking about jokes and the list you keep referring to, how is Gengar going to survive an encounter against pokemon mentioned in your list and the set you mentioned like Mega Aggron, Mega Houndoom, Mega CharX, Mega Lucario, MegaKangaskhan, MegaBlastoise (cannot be OHKO'd), popular Scarved pokemon, Talonflame and a bunch of other stuff I haven't bothered to check yet?



The only thing I'm getting in my skull is that you write sloppy posts without bothering to check them, don't follow your line of thought and riddle your rants with insults and petty words, in which case it is best to ignore you.

Now I can call goodday.

- Jukain's post is about... MGengar with 4 offensive moves ? Yea, something like that sucks. 4 off slots Gengar sucked last gen too anyway. But no one on the pro-ban side is talking about this set, so this post won't add any weight to your case.

- The second post... talks about Infiltrator Ninjask with Night Slash... Sucker Punch Sableye (or Confuse Ray as a way to beat Gengar... LOL). He even claims that Sableye is a counter when it's obviously 2HKO'd no matter the set actually (0 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 129-153 (42.4 - 50.3%), note that I took 0 SpA Gengar, MAX SpD/HP Sableye, and it is still possible to 2HKO lmfao).
Yea the remaining part of the post is just laughable (englightening analysis on how works defensive teams). Seriously, you shot a bullet in your own foot by sharing this post.

- You own post doesn't add anything. I feel like you're arguing for the sake of it.
1) A lot of priorities are simply too weak to reliably deal with Gengar (252+ Atk Choice Band Pure Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%)). Bullet Punch from CB Scizor, which is the strongest priority I can think of, seems short on damages (252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%).
Now here's the deal. I got Gengar on the field against something that won't stay in. You switch to you super duper "counter", which is Scizor (let's assume, but it works with Azumarill, Mamoswine, heck even Aegislash, Shadow Sneak damages being close to CB Scizor BPunch damages) as I Perish Song. Now I Protect, take a hit (I sub on this turn, to make sure you don't use anything BUT your priority), and switch away as you die. The only possible scenario that would make you "win", is the one in which your Scizor is ADAMANT LIFE ORB (lolol) and SDs on the Protect turn (which means that you outplayed me, and hid the set from me before). This scenario is really unlikely to happen so smoothly.

Multi Hit moves ? I meet Icycle Spear, Rock Blast, Dual Chop, Water Shuriken, Bone Rush, Gear Grind, Bonemerang users a lot in OU ! And they all have Skill Link (else it's usually so freaking weak), and are able to outspeed Gengar ! (note : this was a joke).

2) Hazards. Well, it works for any pokemon ? o.o
I mean, if it was Volcarona, then okay... but will we bring down every single pokemon from Uber because they take damages from Hazards ?
The funniest here, is that Gengar is actually immune to Spikes/Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web. Meaning that if your opponent isn't dumb, I'm sure that he will find out a way to play around Sticky Web (and absorb TSpikes if needed!) thanks to the evolution. Not a lot of pokemon have this possibility. THIS, is a MGengar strength, not a weakness at all.

3) Well, a lot of people spoke about this point before me.
I'll just jump on that "It is a sacrifice, the option to blow a hole or a chance to take down your sweepers main check/wallcomes at a price". Any decent pokemon player will tell you that a wall worths more than an offensive pokemon during an offense vs defensive fight. A wall is infinitely more valuable for a team than an offensive pokemon is. Especially when you get to choose which wall you can pick. Trading is in the "blood" of offensive teams, but it is NOT in defensive team's favor. I mean, this is common "pokemon sense".
If I tell you "Your wallbreaker will break the wall it is meant to break, and then eventually die like a shit" (I rarely see MGengar die like that if they're played by a decent player though) , are you willing to do this trade ? Well me, anyday.

And i'm too lazy to watch the other posts, sorry, you had only 3 shots to shine :(

 

[Subject 18]

I voted for no to gengarite being banned but to be clear I only think it should be allowed as long as other megas are allowed. I think mega gengar isn't the most overpowered mega and many others like kangaskhan, pinsir, and lucario should be banned with mega gengar.

Saying that Gengarite shouldn't be banned as long as other Mega stones are legal isn't a viable argument and shouldn't be used as the reason to not ban something. All of the Mega Pokemon you mentioned are likely to be tested in the future. The reason that Mega Gengar is being singled out here is because there aren't really ways to defend yourself from it trapping one of your Pokemon for it to be able to allow a team member to outright sweep you. While Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Kangaskhan can be defended against and prepared for by teambuilding and smart gameplanning. You can't teambuild for Mega Gengar, its going to do exactly what it needs to get done just about every time it is used.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to under that Mega Gengar isn't meant to sweep entire teams rather its role is to support the sweepers on the team. It does so by singling out a key Pokemon, trapping it and taking it out for the actual sweeper to win the game.

When considering whether to ban mega gengar we need to consider him in the context of the entire metagame.
If he is one of the few viable ways to deal with some of the threats that exist in ou that I outlined, which I believe he is, then he is playing an important role and shouldn't be banned without considering what a lack of mega gengar in ou would unleash. The point I was trying to make wasn't that we should necessarily ban mega gengar as much as that we should not ban him unless we also seriously consider banning many other main mega pokemon threats.

How exactly is its presence a positive thing for the metagame?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Regarding the LO Gengar argument...

252 EV Timid MegaGengar: 439 Sp. Attack
252 EV Timid Life Orb Gengar: 359 x 1.3 = 466.7 Sp. Attack
252 EV Timid Life Orb Arceus: 339 x 1.3 = 440.7 Sp. Attack

I know Life Orb is a boost to damage and not the stat, but still. Why people bring the argument that MegaGengar's weaker than LO Gengar when it still has as much Sp. Attack as a base 120 pokémon? Do people seriously think +10 base Sp. Attack is worth giving up on Shadow Tag and +20 in both base defenses?

Besides, if you really, really, really want LO Gengar's firepower, just go with Modest MegaGengar. It's stronger and faster than LO Gengar, has higher defenses, doesn't lose HP every turn and can trap virtually every opponent, at the cost of becoming a grounded Pokémon. Unless you seriously fear Galvantula, Shuckle, Smeargle and/or surprise Quick Claw Ground-type move, you aren't losing much.

 

[Serrak]

I've noticed a lot of people mentioning a lack of counterplay, but that's not completely true. I fully understand the definition of a counter, and know that you can't counter it. But you can build sets to lure it, which is a form of counterplay. Don't think I'm anti-ban though, there are two strong counterarguments to this that should be discussed. 1.) what if what it's gunning for isn't your lure? I.E. Gliscor is running Yache to live the HP ice, but it wants to trap your Blissey. 2.) Can you build lures that can handle Mega Gengar while still being able to do their normal job? Blissey with 172 Sp Att EVs can 2HKO 4/0 variants with psychic, but can it still wall special threats with the remaining evs and moveslots?

 

[HypoLast]

Saying that Gengarite shouldn't be banned as long as other Mega stones are legal isn't a viable argument and shouldn't be used as the reason to not ban something. All of the Mega Pokemon you mentioned are likely to be tested in the future. The reason that Mega Gengar is being singled out here is because there aren't really ways to defend yourself from it trapping one of your Pokemon for it to be able to allow a team member to outright sweep you. While Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Kangaskhan can be defended against and prepared for by teambuilding and smart gameplanning. You can't teambuild for Mega Gengar, its going to do exactly what it needs to get done just about every time it is used.

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to under that Mega Gengar isn't meant to sweep entire teams rather its role is to support the sweepers on the team. It does so by singling out a key Pokemon, trapping it and taking it out for the actual sweeper to win the game.



How exactly is its presence a positive thing for the metagame?

I typically use him to beat mega kangaskhan since I can switch regular gengar in on any of m kangaskhans moves and pivot on the sucker punch to something that can deal with him. I haven't tried him against mega lucario yet but I suspect he will be able to do similar if they don't have shadow claw. I currently run either scarfed ditto or mega gengar on all of my serious teams specifically to help me fight my opponents megas.

 

[Ajwf]

I've so far run two lures for mega gengar. Florges w/psyhic
4 SpA Florges Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 150-178 (57.4 - 68.1%)

And Mega venusaur with earthquake.
0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 174-206 (66.6 - 78.9%)

Mega venu wasn't even that much of a lure, it just has EQ to handle mega gengar/steels and is generally a threat that the opponent otherwise has to try and 5hko or have some psychic/flying type for. The whole concept for him was the fact that venu takes relatively 40% (32.9 - 39%) (Stab shadow ball), invested from max SpA gengar and hence I could take him already in mega. This is also custom EV spread for mega venu. Both are very shaky.

 

[Legitimate Username]

Seeing as MGengar's ability and stats make it inherently uncompetitive, it shouldn't really matter what "effects" its banning would do to the metagame, more so if all it does is make another broken threat more prominent. This is not exclusive to Mega mons, as in BW2 more people abuse Tornadus-T once Genesect got banned, Landorus-I once Tornadus-T got banned, and so on. The emergence of a new threat replacing an old, more obviously broken mon is nothing new and is a consequence of smogon's effort to build a balanced metagame, and all the Mega status does is make these threats more obvious since people feel the need to abuse a mega mon on their teams, and there is a smaller pool of mega mons to begin with.

All i'm saying is that since Mega Khan would function the exact same way with or without Mega Gengar, I fail to see why this is even being brought up at all. You can argue to quickban MGengar or do a suspect test if you feel like wasting time and effort for the exact same result, but really Mega Khan shouldn't even be brought up in this argument.

BW2's cascade of overpowered threats strikes me as similar, but not the same, as the situation at hand. Nothing stopped you from using Tornadus-T when Genesect was around, or Landorus when Tornadus-T was around. Their popularity rose because they grew more relatively powerful as the threshold of power shifted downwards as more bans took place. In this case, there's a hard barrier preventing the use of one such threat if your team requires the use of another. As a result, despite that Mega Gengar and Kangaskhan are played completely differently and work on different types of teams, there's much more incentive to adopt the use of one if the other were to get banned.

Part of the reason I feel like a suspect test is necessary is because people tend to look at Mega Gengar's merits and flaws in a vacuum. For now I hold the opinion that Mega Gengar is broken, but it's not yet solid enough that I don't feel it could be changed with some experience on a suspect ladder. After all, it's definitely not as "obviously broken" as Blaziken and Deoxys were. For all we know, banning Mega Gengar could cause a massive rise in Mega Kangaskhan (who, for the record, is more of an arbitrary example of a threat that has the potential to rise greatly, rather than an actual fear of the consequences. It could be Lucario, Mawile, it doesn't really matter). On the other hand, maybe the balance of Megas would see much more stability with a thorn like Gengar out of the picture. With a quickban, there's no way of knowing the consequence until the action is completed.

Because Mega stones have a much more direct effect on teambuilding than single Pokémon do, there's no telling how profound the effects of the ban of Gengarite can have on the metagame. I would much prefer if there was a suspect test so there would be knowledge of HOW drastic these effects would be before rushing to make the decision. No matter how you look at it, this is the first time a Mega stone ban could take place. Thus, as we have no previous experiences with this situation to serve as a solid prediction of the consequences, I think the decision should be as informed as possible. If any test deserves not to be rushed, it's this one.

 

[Chazman]

I think the biggest reason for banning it actually comes from the no ban side. just look at all the hoops they keep having to jump through to explain how it can be beaten. if you have to use 2 or even 3 spots in your team just to bait and kill one pokemon, that one pokemon is a problem. this guy literally needs an entire team to be built just for it, which in turn leaves you wide open for the rest of MGengar's team. if I'm not mistaken, thats overcentralizing around one pokemon, which usually leads to a ban to ubers to open up the ou metagame more.

 

[Dragontamer]

1) A lot of priorities are simply too weak to reliably deal with Gengar (252+ Atk Choice Band Pure Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 144-171 (44.4 - 52.7%)). Bullet Punch from CB Scizor, which is the strongest priority I can think of, seems short on damages (252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 195-229 (60.1 - 70.6%).
Now here's the deal. I got Gengar on the field against something that won't stay in. You switch to you super duper "counter", which is Scizor (let's assume, but it works with Azumarill, Mamoswine, heck even Aegislash, Shadow Sneak damages being close to CB Scizor BPunch damages) as I Perish Song. Now I Protect, take a hit (I sub on this turn, to make sure you don't use anything BUT your priority), and switch away as you die. The only possible scenario that would make you "win", is the one in which your Scizor is ADAMANT LIFE ORB (lolol) and SDs on the Protect turn (which means that you outplayed me, and hid the set from me before). This scenario is really unlikely to happen so smoothly.

Multi Hit moves ? I meet Icycle Spear, Rock Blast, Dual Chop, Water Shuriken, Bone Rush, Gear Grind, Bonemerang users a lot in OU ! And they all have Skill Link (else it's usually so freaking weak), and are able to outspeed Gengar ! (note : this was a joke).

I know that you're trying to make a point here, but you need to be more careful about selecting your situations. Scizor simply uses U-Turn on the turn when Gengar switches away. Now Gengar is down 25% (from Substitute), 50% (from Bullet Punch), and Scizor got away completely scott free (maybe -20% if he's holding a Life Orb).

Obviously, this is a terrible way to play Mega-Gengar. It would appear that Mega-Gengar 2HKOs Scizor, but since Scizor 2HKOs with those EVs with Bullet Punch, your standard Life Orb Scizor is bringing on the pain against this particular set. The correct move on Gengar's part would be to use Shadow Ball on the switch in. Any other move (including Perish Song) results in Gengar's KO.

I think the anti-ban people in this thread are annoyed at the bad examples that keep getting brought up (yes, we get it. Some people seem to think that Thunderbolt OHKOs CharizardX, despite a Dragon Typing that offers 2x resistance >_<). I know I've made my mistakes in this thread, so I can't expect others to be perfect either. Nonetheless, these mistakes that are accruing in this thread are extremely distracting.

The Damage calculator is back up now, lets actually double-check damage results before posting, please?

In particular, I think we all agreed that perish-song Gengar was not the best way to play him anyway (and its more of a "choose a particular wall that is causing your team trouble, and nuke it to death with specially selected attacks"). So lets focus on the question: if Gengar gets suspect tested, does anyone actually think he'll remain OU?

The main concern is that suspect testing will be a waste of time, and I can respect that.

 

[gr8astard]

BW2's cascade of overpowered threats strikes me as similar, but not the same, as the situation at hand. Nothing stopped you from using Tornadus-T when Genesect was around, or Landorus when Tornadus-T was around. Their popularity rose because they grew more relatively powerful as the threshold of power shifted downwards as more bans took place. In this case, there's a hard barrier preventing the use of one such threat if your team requires the use of another. As a result, despite that Mega Gengar and Kangaskhan are played completely differently and work on different types of teams, there's much more incentive to adopt the use of one if the other were to get banned.

Part of the reason I feel like a suspect test is necessary is because people tend to look at Mega Gengar's merits and flaws in a vacuum. For now I hold the opinion that Mega Gengar is broken, but it's not yet solid enough that I don't feel it could be changed with some experience on a suspect ladder. After all, it's definitely not as "obviously broken" as Blaziken and Deoxys were. For all we know, banning Mega Gengar could cause a massive rise in Mega Kangaskhan (who, for the record, is more of an arbitrary example of a threat that has the potential to rise greatly, rather than an actual fear of the consequences. It could be Lucario, Mawile, it doesn't really matter). On the other hand, maybe the balance of Megas would see much more stability with a thorn like Gengar out of the picture. With a quickban, there's no way of knowing the consequence until the action is completed.

Because Mega stones have a much more direct effect on teambuilding than single Pokémon do, there's no telling how profound the effects of the ban of Gengarite can have on the metagame. I would much prefer if there was a suspect test so there would be knowledge of HOW drastic these effects would be before rushing to make the decision. No matter how you look at it, this is the first time a Mega stone ban could take place. Thus, as we have no previous experiences with this situation to serve as a solid prediction of the consequences, I think the decision should be as informed as possible. If any test deserves not to be rushed, it's this one.

Yes, you're basically just repeating what I said. You can only choose one Mega pokemon and that makes it different compared to the rise of regular non-mega mons as a threat, but again it should have no bearing on MGengar. I will tell you exactly what happens after MGengar gets banned. Mega Lucario, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Kangaskhan etc will rise even more in usage because they're the next best thing, not because they're "more broken" than they already are right now, and it shouldn't matter what happens as a result of MGengar's ban when its mere presence is very uncompetitive and detrimental to the game. Even if MGengar helps handle MKanga or force it to function differently (which it doesn't), it won't change the fact that MGengar needs to go, and prolonging its stay in OU won't do us any good either.

So lets focus on the question: if Gengar gets suspect tested, does anyone actually think he'll remain OU?

No.

 

[Exeggutive]

If running psychic on random walls and eving it to be makeshift spec attackers isn't over centralizing then idk what is.