Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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i) Mega-Gengar deals less damage than LO Gengar
ii) Lack of priority moves hurt (CB scizor, Talonflame, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch)
iii) cannot make full use of ability
iv) EQ weakness
v) predictable moveset (when they see mega evo)
vi) definitely not ubers material (too easy to play around)

Gengarite should not be banned.
i) Irrelevant, there is very little power difference (LO has like 10% more power), and since Mega Gengar chooses what to kill, it's doing a lot more damage.
ii) Does a Base 130 Speed mon really need priority? Just switch out of priority.
iii) Focus Blast when you Mega to catch Tyranitar, or Sub when you Mega, and afterwards it can switch in and trap right away.
iv) If you keep your Mega Gengar on something with Earthquake you are very retarded.
v) If you think that Perish Song/Taunt/Disable/Substitute/Shadow Ball/Sludge Wave/Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam/Thunderbolt/Hidden Power/Destiny Bond is predictable then you have been using Mew way too much.
vi) You don't play around Mega Gengar. Period.
 
Can people stop advocating a suspect test on the grounds that we 'may as well' or 'just in case.' A quickban is not done solely because a Pokemon is so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be removed from the metagame with immediate effect.

It's done because the powers-that-be are utterly confident that a suspect test would only give the exact same result. Trust me when I say that suspect tests require an immense amount of time, effort, energy and man-hours and cause considerable disruption across the whole community.

I've actively participated in or closely followed (as a moderator) almost every suspect test that Smogon has ever organised and I can say from the reactions in this thread that the writing is most certainly on the wall; a suspect test at this stage will end in a Mega-Gengar ban. I imagine the Council, in their infinite wisdom, are similarly sure and would rather not go through the hassle of a tedious suspect test unless they absolutely have to. Don't advocate a test 'just because.'
I think I should highlight this post then. The only good arguments in this thread against Gengar's banning seem to be addressed by Lee here. IE: I don't think any of the "Keep Gengar Unbanned" players actually expect MegaGengar to be OU-worthy come say... next January. To be frank, we are probably more appalled at the Blaziken banning, which happened "too fast for comfort", and would prefer things to slow down a bit. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but thats probably what is on the back of most of our minds)

If Quick-Banning Gengar gets the "final OU metagame" moving faster, I think we all can agree to it.
 
Haven't read all the posts, don't plan to read all the posts right now, but from what I've seen people are basically saying "MeGar counters this thing he's broken"..? Sure, Shadow Tag is annoying, but it's not like he is without common counters. I thought I'd open up my teams so far and on the first one it has MegaBlastoise with Dark Pulse... that kills it. Oddly enough Dragonite counters it most of the time just by Dragon Dancing and then having strong attacks with Multiscale. Starmie scarf Psychic after a switch in does the trick, and IDK how to run a calc but I have a feeling specs might too. Houndoom pretty much wrecks MeGar - especially megahoundoom - with Pursuit, Taunt and Sucker Punch. Yes, the guy's countered by substitute but then again the guy's also got enough bulk to survive the Perish Song set "the best one". That's just my teams (Funnily enough I listed two spinners, I thought he was supposed to be able to block spins?) and I've honestly never needed to use anything more than a few strong hits, residual damage etc.. Ghost-Type Pokemon can switch out on Shadow Tag now - this means that he can't trap at least one Pokemon on your team most of the time. Pivots can switch out with Volt Switch/U-TUrn/Baton Pass. Bearing this in mind this makes him completely useless against two playstyles - Baton Pass and VolTurn - meaning that it is not exactly anti-meta with many common counters and two playstyles that outright wreck him. Do Not Ban.
Switch out of Mega Blastoise. Why are you even staying in.

Have something that can beat DD Dragonite, it's not that hard. And you're not staying in on Dragonite anyways.

Specs is irrelevant against Mega Gengar, and a lot of Scarfmons force it out, like Chandelure, Noivern, etc. It can't switch in until Mega Gengar kills something.

I'd like to see your Houndoom take a Focus Blast. Also I always Sub if the opponent has a Pursuiter when I Mega. Or Focus Blast to get rid of set Pursuiter.

Perish Song isn't even the best set IMO, and it's a horrible waste of MegaGar's power. It works well though.

No one in their right mind switches a Ghost into Mega Gengar, and a lot of those pivots are heavily damaged by Mega Gengar.

Baton Pass is pretty dead nowadays, and it beats VoltTurn by simply smacking the mons before they can pivot out.

I don't know what kind of opponents you've been playing against but those people should be pulled from PS and be forced to enroll in a common sense class.
 

TROP

BAN DRUDDIGON. FIREWALL DRAGON DID NOTHING WRONG
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i) Mega-Gengar deals less damage than LO Gengar
ii) Lack of priority moves hurt (CB scizor, Talonflame, Aqua Jet, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch)
iii) cannot make full use of ability
iv) EQ weakness
v) predictable moveset (when they see mega evo)
vi) definitely not ubers material (too easy to play around)

Gengarite should not be banned.
1. If you are not using Gengar to eliminate whatever mon your opponent has that will stop your sweep with x mon, you are doing it wrong. Shadow Tag, extra bulk to live hits that would snipe it as regular Gengar(Scizor bullet punch), and extra speed to deal with former checks like Weavile and Scarf Tyranitar is worth it.
2. Because I really should be staying in those when Mega Gengar has not done its job yet/already killed what I wanted it to. And considering Mega Gengar picks what he wants to fight(read:things he can beat easily), this is hardly relevant.
3. Mega Gengar has almost everything it needs to abuse Shadow Tag to its maximum potential. The only thing it is missing is some extra bulk, but what he has is good enough.
4. Read 2. And if I need to I can hide it from being my mega easily by pairing it with stuff like Lucario and using a sub before I attack.
5. How the hell is predictable when it has at least 10 viable moves that get chosen depending on its team needs.
6. lol. I hope last one is a joke. It is really damn hard to play around a Shadow Tag mon unless you use bad items like shed shell, and I would only use that on Skarmory because I need it for physical dragons that like to be with a Magnezone.
 
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I feel as if the main reason Mega Gengar seems underwhelming is because of the inexperienced players trying to use it ineffectively. I really hope it does get banned though because it'll probably lower the diversity of this generations ou and encourage last gen's hyper offensive bullshit.

Oh yeah, if Mega Gengar doesn't get banned, this thread will actually teach people how to use this guy competently. That's a really scary thought actually; competent players.
 
I do think, a lot of people really don't know how to use M-Gengar properly. A lot of times, it seems like the M-Gengar I'm facing is meant to be regular Gengar, except faster and not floating. Using it as a straight sweeper instead of what's essentially the ultimate sniper. I would definitely not say, it's "mindless" to use, however broken it might be.

As for people learning how to use it... well, at least it'll help show people, what a monster this thing is and get it banned quicker.
 
I don't think people are really getting the true point of the discussion. MGengar cannot beat everything, but it doesn't have to. It can pick and choose its fights, and win them easily, whether it is killing off things with its massive 170 SpA and 130 Spe, or its access to Perish Song/Taunt/support move, OR DESTINY BOND.

If people are playing Gengar with actual brains in their heads, they will not risk losing MGengar to anything that can pose a threat to it. And once it comes back on something it has chosen to kill, THERE IS NO WAY TO STOP IT.
 
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1. If you are not using Gengar to eliminate whatever mon your opponent has that will stop your sweep with x mon, you are doing it wrong. Shadow Tag, extra bulk to live hits that would snipe it as regular Gengar(Scizor bullet punch), and extra speed to deal with former checks like Weavile and Scarf Tyranitar is worth it.
2. Because I really should be staying in those when Mega Gengar has not done its job yet/already killed what I wanted it to. And considering Mega Gengar picks what he wants to fight(read:things he can beat easily), this is hardly relevant.
3. Mega Gengar has almost everything it needs to abuse Shadow Tag to its maximum potential. The only thing it is missing is some extra bulk, but what he has is good enough.
4. Read 2. And if I need to I can hide it from being my mega easily by pairing it with stuff like Lucario and using a sub before I attack.
5. How the hell is predictable when it has at least 10 viable moves that get chosen depending on its team needs.
6. lol. I hope last one is a joke. It is really damn hard to play around a Shadow Tag mon unless you use bad items like shed shell, and I would only use that on Skarmory because I need it for physical dragons that like to be with a Magnezone.
Hmm fair points, didn't really think of those, haven't been playing enough pokebank OU I guess. So far most of the M-Gengars I've seen try to be sweepers and saved till late game, which is why I talked about lack of priority moves. I disagree with the moveset being unpredictable tho because mega-gengar can't really run the sub+disable set and that saves alot of trouble second guessing. Personally, I always assume ALL mega-gengars have sludge bomb, shadow ball, thunderbolt, focus blast and it isn't that hard guessing what he's going to use. Seems like mega-gengar needs a tad bit of team support. btw, dyou think he should be ubers?
 
1) Mega Gengar isn't a sweeper. It's a trapper that does its job rather too well, clearing the way for other sweepers like Salamence.
2) Please read a few pages before this. Most priority cannot OHKO outside Sucker Punch, which can easily be played around.
3) If it was as limited as Gothitelle I could give you this, but Gengar has countless ways to exploit Shadow Tag to the fullest extent possible. Taunt, Substitute, Will-o'-wisp, Destiny Bond, and when Pokébank opens, the infamous Perish Song. How is that not "making full use of its abilities"?
4) Gengar is one of those megas that can choose not to mega-evolve on the first turn. It's really not that hard to trick something into Earthquake, taking it out with the appropriate attack.
5) Gengar is apparently nowadays predictable. Okay.
6) See above.
Sorry maybe I haven't been playing enough OU Pokebanks. All I've seen were sweeper m-gengars and those were meh. Priorities do kill it, CB Scizor OHKO with Bullet Punch after passive damage and Talonflame with Acrobatics as well as Shadow Sneak from Aegislash. Totally forgot bout Destiny Bond, Will and Perish Song. Honestly, would people use those? Then again ghost coverage is pretty strong now. I tend to always assume mega-gengars have sludge bomb, shadow ball, focus blast and thunderbolt so yeaa. That's all I've been seeing. Well honestly, I still don't think he needs to be banned. I know he is strong but to the extent where you need to build your team to get pass him? It really isn't that hard once they realise what set you are running cause there is a flaw in each of his sets and most OU teams can work their way around without needing very specific counters.
 
Nothing post pokebank, even with the stuff we don't know for sure is enough to make Gengar less effective at its job. Also, the "Shadow Tag+Perish Song is the only broken set" argument has been debunked multiple times already. Gr8's, Innocent Criminal's, and Rey's posts dont even focus on that set to conclude it is broken.
Delaying the ban is not actually a good idea becasue if it gets a suspect test, I'm sure it will get something close to BW OU Skymin or BW UU Kyurem % for ban if not the same exact %(100).
But we do get something new: We get mass usage of the currently unavailable sets. What is currently the "Pokébank" OU will become the only OU, and we'll get to see how they play out, and how the community handles Mega Gengar at that level.

Haunter said:
I) Quick bans will be made when a certain aspect (be it a Pokémon, an ability, a move, an item or a combination of the aforementioned) of the metagame becomes so blatantly broken that passing it through a formal suspect test would be a waste of time and effort for everyone. From now on, quick bans will be made according to the following circumstances:
  1. Before the council makes the final decision, a thread will be posted in Policy Review, so that everyone who has posting privileges in that forum will get the chance to weigh in and potentially influence the decision. The thread will stay open for approximately one week;
  2. When the decision is made, the council will post a thread in Uncharted Territory. The post will provide the reasons behind the ban.
This thread is reason enough for me to call against a quick ban. It is very clearly not going to be a waste of time and effort to test Mega-Gengar as it stands in usability and viability at the present time. The number of people stating that they aren't having trouble with it, or arguing about counters, shows that a test would not be a waste. As does the result of the poll, sitting at about half and half. A test would demonstrate to the community just what sort of problems Mega Gengar has, just how broken it may be.
In my opinion, a quick ban should come if, and only if, Mega Gengar is CURRENTLY having a clear and negative effect on the metagame. If, while observing the metagame as it evolves, or when Pokébank comes out and it shifts to handle the new influx, Mega Gengar suddenly starts having the effect that Blaziken had, quick ban it then. But until it starts to have a clear, visible, detrimental effect on the metagame, it shouldn't be quick banned. Without that visible effect on the metagame, testing it is not going to be a "waste of time and effort" for everyone. It wouldn't be a waste for any of the people in here vehemently supporting it.

Is Mega Gengar broken? I'm inclined to say "heck yes". But that needs to be proven, and proven to the community as a whole, either through its effect on the metagame, or through testing. Neither has happened yet, so the ban is premature, in my mind.
 

Windsong

stumbling down elysian fields
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Haven't read all the posts, don't plan to read all the posts right now, but from what I've seen people are basically saying "MeGar counters this thing he's broken"..?
I think you need to go back and read the posts. All the posts. Because you're clearly not getting it at all.
Sure, Shadow Tag is annoying, but it's not like he is without common counters.
If something has Shadow Tag then it definitively can't have counters. If stuff can't switch into it, stuff can't counter it. This is basically irrelevant at this point and either way, the excellent arguments outlined in gr8's post on page 14 and rey's posts from pages 15 - 17, all of which should be mandatory reading if you intend to make intelligent commentary in this thread, are much more important than a technical lack of counters. So to reiterate, even if your argument here were correct (it's not) it would still be completely insignificant.
I thought I'd open up my teams so far and on the first one it has MegaBlastoise with Dark Pulse... that kills it. Oddly enough Dragonite counters it most of the time just by Dragon Dancing and then having strong attacks with Multiscale.
Refer to gr8's and rey's posts. Pages 14 - 17. Read them.
Starmie scarf Psychic after a switch in does the trick, and IDK how to run a calc but I have a feeling specs might too. Houndoom pretty much wrecks MeGar - especially megahoundoom - with Pursuit, Taunt and Sucker Punch. Yes, the guy's countered by substitute but then again the guy's also got enough bulk to survive the Perish Song set "the best one".
If you're using scarf Starmie in this meta then you're doing something wrong?...also you just used the phrase "enough bulk to survive the Perish Song set". That literally makes zero sense. Finally, again, neither of those things counters it at all, neither of those things is a hindrance to many common sweepers and MGar shouldn't even be switching in against any of those mons unless it needs to and can take them out (refer to pages 14 - 17 for more information on why this is really really significant).
I've honestly never needed to use anything more than a few strong hits, residual damage etc.. Ghost-Type Pokemon can switch out on Shadow Tag now - this means that he can't trap at least one Pokemon on your team most of the time. Pivots can switch out with Volt Switch/U-TUrn/Baton Pass. Bearing this in mind this makes him completely useless against two playstyles - Baton Pass and VolTurn - meaning that it is not exactly anti-meta with many common counters and two playstyles that outright wreck him.
Actually read previous posts. This stuff has been repeatedly addressed and you flat out clearly do not understand why Gengar is even a suspect. You have not addressed a single actual concern brought up. For heaven's sake, if you actually want to make good, intelligent points, read and respond to rey's, gr8's, and innocent criminal's posts on pages 14 - 17. They perfectly summarize the actual concerns of MGar and why it would potentially be banned.

I'm sorry if this came across as overly harsh, but there's no point in having this thread open as a discussion or even poll whatsoever if the people commenting clearly do not have a basic understanding of elementary concepts in this game, especially if they flat out aren't willing to read the previous well resonating arguments on both sides and learn what they should actually be arguing about.
 
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This thread is reason enough for me to call against a quick ban. It is very clearly not going to be a waste of time and effort to test Mega-Gengar as it stands in usability and viability at the present time. The number of people stating that they aren't having trouble with it, or arguing about counters, shows that a test would not be a waste.

As does the result of the poll, sitting at about half and half. A test would demonstrate to the community just what sort of problems Mega Gengar has, just how broken it may be.
In my opinion, a quick ban should come if, and only if, Mega Gengar is CURRENTLY having a clear and negative effect on the metagame. If, while observing the metagame as it evolves, or when Pokébank comes out and it shifts to handle the new influx, Mega Gengar suddenly starts having the effect that Blaziken had, quick ban it then. But until it starts to have a clear, visible, detrimental effect on the metagame, it shouldn't be quick banned. Without that visible effect on the metagame, testing it is not going to be a "waste of time and effort" for everyone. It wouldn't be a waste for any of the people in here vehemently supporting it.

Is Mega Gengar broken? I'm inclined to say "heck yes". But that needs to be proven, and proven to the community as a whole, either through its effect on the metagame, or through testing. Neither has happened yet, so the ban is premature, in my mind.
Yes, Mega-Gengar does currently have a negative effect on the metagame. If you saw the usage statistics, Gengar is the first non-Kalos mon on the list, and most of Gengar's usage comes from Mega-Gengar. Now, imagine you were using Skarmory as a physical wall on your team, but most of the time, you get trapped and killed by a Mega-Gengar. The same applies to any pokemon that Gengar can effectively trap and defeat. Gengarite isn't being banned because Mega-Gengar doesn't have counters. Gengarite is being banned because Mega-Gengar alone renders pokemon that would normally do very well in the metagame, unviable (along with a few other reasons) , and I don't think a large number of people understand that.
 
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Yes, Mega-Gengar does currently have a negative effect on the metagame. If you saw the usage statistics, Gengar is the first non-Kalos mon on the list, and most of Gengar's usage comes from Mega-Gengar. Now, imagine you were using Skarmory as a physical wall on your team, but most of the time, you get trapped and killed by a Mega-Gengar. The same applies to any pokemon that Gengar can effectively trap and defeat. Gengarite isn't being banned because Mega-Gengar doesn't have counters. Gengarite is being banned because Mega-Gengar alone renders pokemon that would normally do very well in the metagame, unviable, and I don't think a large number of people understand that.
Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. This is honestly the first I've seen mentioned of this in the thread. I haven't seen the usage statistics (Are they available? I'm a bit of a newbie here, sorry), but this is, in my mind, what would put Mega Gengar in the running for a quick ban. Most of the discussion I've seen has been all theory work, or arguing what might happen when Pokébank comes out, or other hypothetical discussion. While that is all fascinating to read (really, I love this sort of discussion), I feel it is leaving out the one thing that really matters to a quick ban, which is the current state of the metagame. Although I will caution that usage itself is not necessarily an indication of viability, I know that Smogon is already well aware of this. But if Mega Gengar is having a clear effect on the metagame all by itself, there should be statistics and information available now to demonstrate that.
You are correct though, in that a large number of people don't understand it. Hopefully, if a quick ban does come, the OU Council's post on the subject will clearly define the reasons why, plainly enough for everyone to understand, as they did with Blaziken and Deoxys-N (though I know that won't stop the complaints).
 
From my experience with Mega Gengar there hasn't been much trouble. Because, put simply, I was paranoid about Mega Alakazam to the point where half my team could coincidentally counter Mega Gengar. I've been caught out by Shadow Tag maybe twice? Which was entirely because I forgot Mega Gengar had it and made terrible misplays. It's strange really, on paper it looks fantastic, but for some reason in practice it just doesn't cut the mustard. If it's not packing Will-o-wisp, it doesn't threaten my Mega Mawile enough, which leads to trading one pokémon for whatever chunk of their team those two gigantic mouths are capable of biting off.

It's not like I'm playing hyper offense either, I've been enjoying stall this generation while this "wallbreaker" sits around trapping and killing itself on Ferrothorn.
 
Just noticed Dugtrio would trap and OHKO alternating between Sucker Punch and Earthquake. There's your counter.
Putting it that way literally anyone Pokemon can counter any Pokemon. The thing about Mega Gengar is that it can trap a lot of Pokemons and often just OHKO them. And then there's that Perish Song set too...
 
There. You forced him out without taking out any pokemon. And whatever comes in takes a strong attack from Chandelure / Regular Gengar. If he wants to open up a hole for a Lucario sweep in your team it's obvious that he'll attempt to take your Gliscor out. Just use that to your advantage and double switch.
...Have you been reading the discussion at all? As in, the good posts? Not the "lol I don't problems with it from my experience" but the posts from people who have outlined exactly what MGengar's strengths are?

MGengar has the option to switch to a counter of whatever it is being threatened by. The other player, having a mon being threatened by MGengar, CANNOT. This is a real problem that has been discussed, and is a HUGE point for MGengar. Sure, send in Scarf Chandelure to force MGengar out on the first turn in MEvos. Ok. Now how you gonna get in Scarf Chandelure to force MGengar out again if it decides to trap a wall you really want alive?

Double switch, you say? Cool. So now whatever you send into MGengar to replace Gliscor cannot switch out, while MGengar can to a counter of its own. Actually, what am I saying. No one switches MGengar into Gliscor. You switch in Gengar to Gliscor. Point still stands, though. Whatever you decide to switch into MGengar on the turn it MEvos can force it out, but then nothing can force MGengar out if it decides to kill something.

I cannot emphasize this enough. MGengar can switch to whatever counters it wants. Whatever is being trapped by MGengar CANNOT.

In no way do your posts give any points against MGengar's strengths.
 

alexwolf

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We have to remember that the question is a bit different from "is this Mega broken?"; it's "is this Mega broken to the point where we can confidently ban it without a suspect test and cannot wait for a suspect test?" A lot of Pokemon make for deadly attackers without being broken, and most broken Pokemon don't warrant quickbans.
Kinda late, but yeah, trapping most of the metagame without breaking a sweat is the epitome of ''quickban that shit''.
 

Shroomisaur

Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
There. You forced him out without taking out any pokemon. And whatever comes in takes a strong attack from Chandelure / Regular Gengar. If he wants to open up a hole for a Lucario sweep in your team it's obvious that he'll attempt to take your Gliscor out. Just use that to your advantage and double switch.
We're not trying to prove that Mega Gengar is all-powerful or invincible. Of course Scarf Gengar or Chandy can threaten it.

But first of all, in order to actually switch in one of these Pokemon, it has to be either A) after Gar killed something, or B) on the turn he mega-evolves. So by running Scarf Chandelure/Gengar, yes you can force MegaGar out... so, now what? In that scenario the MegaGar player will switch in something to tank the obvious Shadow Ball, in turn forcing out your Scarfer, leaving you back at square one and "even" in a best-case scenario. Then, as soon as you send in another target MegaGar can pick off, in it comes again to do the assassination, simply switching out if you send your Scarfer again.

That's the difference... Mega Gengar can choose what and when to kill, and when to switch to a counter. If you're up against it, you don't have either option. You're just toast.
 
I just voted no. I honestly don't feel he's enough of a threat. He's a good revenge killer, and that's something to give him, yeah, but after he transforms and gets his revenge kill (if he can even manage to do it with his less threatening attacks than traditional LO Gengar) he's incredibly easy to take out himself.

HOWEVER, I will note that Gengar's ability to grant a free switch to a counter is good, but I don't think good enough to warrant a quickban. I will admit that a suspect test is not a bad idea.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
After reading the last 10 pages of this thread I think I should make clear that its purpose is not to let everyone express their philosophical approach to the tiering process, but rather to gather information on how Mega Gengar's presence in the metagame is perceived by the playerbase. If you're going to vote "no" just because you, ontologically, believe that M-Gengar's "brokenness" should be proved via a formal suspect test, then you're really missing the point of this thread.

While the pro-ban side has made numerous extremely solid arguments to support their stance, the only relevant anti-ban argument I've seen so far is contained in this post. You're being given the opportunity to potentially influence our final decision and many of you are wasting it by making posts on how quick bans don't match their banning philosophy. For those who think that "the community has nothing to lose" from running a formal suspect test, I really advise that you read the post below:
Can people stop advocating a suspect test on the grounds that we 'may as well' or 'just in case.' A quickban is not done solely because a Pokemon is so overwhelmingly powerful that it needs to be removed from the metagame with immediate effect.

It's done because the powers-that-be are utterly confident that a suspect test would only give the exact same result. Trust me when I say that suspect tests require an immense amount of time, effort, energy and man-hours and cause considerable disruption across the whole community.

I've actively participated in or closely followed (as a moderator) almost every suspect test that Smogon has ever organised and I can say from the reactions in this thread that the writing is most certainly on the wall; a suspect test at this stage will end in a Mega-Gengar ban. I imagine the Council, in their infinite wisdom, are similarly sure and would rather not go through the hassle of a tedious suspect test unless they absolutely have to. Don't advocate a test 'just because.'
Finally, since probably many of you weren't around when this thread was posted, I strongly suggest that you take a look at it, paying particular attention to the "support characteristic":
Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep
.
Also consider that, from a competitive standpoint, trapping abilities like Shadow Tag are seen with immense disfavor, as they generally take out skill from the game. To put things into perspective, I should let everyone know that at a certain point during the B/W era, a (very) vocal minority of the community started to advocate a suspect test for ST Gothitelle which, clearly, isn't even remotely comparable to Mega Gengar in terms of stats and support movepool.

That said, I invite everyone to tone down a little and to focus more on the topic of this thread, rather than on irrelevant side arguments.
 
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Shroomisaur

Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
As I've said countless times before, think about which pokemon would be your opponent interested in taking out to plow a hole and open a sweep. Then after Gengar has Megavolved and switched out the first time, predict when MGar will come in and double switch to keep it at bay while you neuter your real check. With any kind of hazards or sticky web it will finally take care of either of them. Not mentioning that every time the Scarfed ghost counter switches in to take out MGar, it takes damage.
Yes, but your problem there is that you're assuming that not only do you have excellent prediction, and your MegaGar opponent is a complete chump... you also seem to assume that you will have hazards up, but they don't. You can't just assume these things.

Of course forcing things out constantly will rack up damage, but in an even match, the same will be happening to you. Gengar will never take a hit if you're double-switching (which is the only way to get a favorable matchup against it unless it just KO'd something). Eventually even the worst opponent in the world will get MegaGar in safely, and once it's in there's no escape! Afterwards it will simply continue the pattern.

By the way, absolutely any partner with Volt Switch / U-Turn makes Mega Gengar incredibly more threatening since it eliminates most of these mindgames.

Also consider that, from a competitive standpoint, trapping abilities like Shadow Tag are seen with immense disfavor, as they generally take out skill from the game. To put thing into perspective, I should let everyone know that a certain point during the B/W era, a (very) vocal minority of the community started to advocate a suspect test for ST Gothitelle which, clearly, isn't even remotely comparable to Mega Gengar in terms of stats and support movepool.

That said, I invite everyone to tone down a little and to focus more on the topic of this thread, rather than on irrelevant side arguments.
Yes, I agree that Shadow Tag is what breaks MegaGar. When you read it, the Support Characteristic almost sounds like it was written specifically to describe Shadow Tag, and the only thing keeping other Taggers balanced was their own personal shortcomings. Gengar is fully capable of making the most of Shadow Tag by easily revenge a huge chunk of OU, and consistently removing walls allowing your teammates to sweep. I think that's pretty much all that needs to be said!
 
One more thing I'd like to add to this topic. Everyone, direct your attention to Gothitelle's 5th Gen Analysis. More specifically, look at the Checks and Counters section.

Yes, it's last gen. However, it does put in some very good points relating to Shadow Tag. In terms of Gothitelle, Shadow Tag allowed it to revenge decently well. I say "decently," because as noted in the analysis, Gothitelle has pretty mediocre stats, and won't be powering through everything, relying on whatever it's trying to take out to be either weakened or unable to deal a lot of damage to Gothitelle.

MGengar has much, much better stats and a better movepool. Now consider the discussion about Gothitelle's Checks and Counters, and put it in relation to MGengar. Basically, imagine that Gothitelle suddenly got better stats, movepool and typing. Now, what were the weaknesses again?
 
Gengar is healthy for the OU metagame because he has the speed and power and movepool, but frailty, to force the opponent into using their priority moves, which are strong enough to finish off MegaGengar, but not strong enough to keep sweeping through steels or bulky waters. Don't forget that priority moves are the top "broken" mechanic of Gen 6 (broken isn't the word, maybe abuseable is). Talonflame, Lucario, Aegislash, Khan, Azumarril, Scizor, Pinsir, Dragonite, and (previously) Deoxys are the top offensive threats, with bulk, good STABs, and fucking strong priority moves and ways to boost them too.

Ever notice no one cares if their team is Garchomp weak or Thundurus weak (because at worst you can just revenge with 1 or 2 priority moves)? But if you're Kangaskhan or Talonflame weak then you better get back to the drawing board. Well, MegaGengar is like the Garchomp, it forces the opponent to "be honest" and go for the priority move for the KO. Now you can IMMEDIATELY bring your counter in against whatever super-priority-user their running and either disable it so you don't get swept by bullet punches, or punish whatever switch they make.

MegaGengar is just 100% the best threat to use against opponents who are packing MegaLucario, MegaKangaskahn, and Aegislash. Those pokemon are forced in to deal with Gengar, and their only choice is use priority move, because if they don't then Gengar will hit them with a STAB off 170 SpA. After Gengar dies you can freely switch your answer to their equally broken megamon, and ensure that you will NOT be swept by +2 aerilated quick attack.

Gengar@Gengarite is plenty counterable, and your gameplan has to be countering Gengar@Gengarite, not countering MegaGengar. Just like the gengar user's gameplan is countering Kangaskhan@Kangaskhanite, not countering +1/+2 MegaKangaskahn
 
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