Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[farranpoison]

I did include the caveat that it was only guarunteed with good play and prediction. Please do not misquote me.

As a counter example, blaziken did not really require counterplay, protect gave a guarunteed +1 speed regardless of play prior to that turn. Megar has to be already evolved, else it gives one turn for the opponent to choose and then play around your gengar if it's able to switch out without dying. This opportunity for counterplay is what differentiates Megar from blaziken.

You can deal with a (M)Blaziken by switching into Azumarill. It was banned because that's basically all that threatened it (and perhaps Talonflame) which was dangerous, potentially forcing every team to run Azumarill (or Talonflame).

However, you could still switch into (M)Blaziken, thus countering it.

Can you switch into MGengar? Sure, on the turn in MEvos. But no time else. I fail to see how you can do "counterplay" when you can't even switch into MGengar.

 

[Darknut07]

You can deal with a (M)Blaziken by switching into Azumarill. It was banned because that's basically all that threatened it (and perhaps Talonflame) which was dangerous, potentially forcing every team to run Azumarill (or Talonflame).

However, you could still switch into (M)Blaziken, thus countering it.

Can you switch into MGengar? Sure, on the turn in MEvos. But no time else. I fail to see how you can do "counterplay" when you can't even switch into MGengar.

The strict definition of counter was not designed with Shadow Tag in mind and its useless to use it here. Gengar has no counters by this definition but neither does Shadow Tag Gothitelle, Wob, and other things.

 

[yoman5]

It's not that mega Gengar can take out a Pokemon, it's that it can take out any Pokemon. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Gen V UU, but the reason that Gothitelle was banned from that tier was similar to the one being proposed now. It had no trouble eliminating bulky water types for Darmanitan or Swampert / Rhyperior / Nidoqueen so Sub CM Raikou could sweep. This is like that, only a million times worse because Mega Gengar is an amazing Pokemon even outside of its ability. You can say "Mega Gengar only has four moveslots" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that it can use those four moveslots to take out any given wall. Please understand that I do not mean every wall, just any given wall. The difference between Mega Gengar and Mega Garchomp is that Mega Garchomp can't assuredly lure in and KO something like Skarmory or Hippowdon (because it doesn't have Shadow Tag). Mega Gengar doesn't even have to lure anything. It can simply wait until you are forced to bring it in and then trap it, either weakening it to the point where it can no longer wall the threat it's supposed to (Hippo/Skarm walling DD Nite for example), or take it out entirely with Perish Song or Destiny Bond or even simply attacking it as Rey already pointed out.

I also want to address the idea that a 1 for 1 situation with Perish Song Gengar is worth it for you. So long as you got rid of Mega Gengar, who cares, right? This is wrong though. If I trade my Mega Gengar for your Hippowdon or Skarmory and I have a DD Nite waiting in the wings to take you down, then I win. That's that. It's not really a 1 for 1 because the Pokemon I'm giving up has already done its job (i.e., it has eliminated your counter to my sweeper), while you have only taken out a Pokemon whose sole purpose was KOing your wall, thus giving me an inherent advantage

The 1 for 1 perish scenario comment was more directed at the likes of the goodra scenario. Goodra could come in and kill gengar 1 for 1 if gengar isnt already Mevod. I understand the idea that Gengar can be tailored to destroy a specific wall, but I feel like that is okay. Shadow tag not being present turn 1 is the reason this is okay. If via team preview I see I need skarm/hippowdown to stop your dnite, There is no reason to bring it in except vs dnite. If you use Dnite to "lure" then bring in Megar, youre going to eat an attack aimed at Dnite (a roar, an ice fang, etc) and then your gengar can no longer do its job, because it will die or get phased by coming in. This is why I believe Megar is okay, between it requiring a free switch and or death and it not having all moves all the time. I'm okay with "this gengar is meant to kill their skarm/hippowdown" for the same reason I'm okay with "this hippowdown/skarm is meant to stop your dnite/garchomp." They do a job they're designed to and they do it well, but they don't do everything else at the same time.

 

[Subject 18]

Having read those posts, I think it's a bit obnoxious to assume that a total of 3 movesets take out 70 pokemon. I can do the same thing with 3 movesets. Listing at least 12 moves to deal with 70 pokemon is a bit insane, I'm sorry. Each set in and of itself doesn't deal with 70 pokemon. Each set is designed to deal with a specific type of pokemon, just as with any other pokemon. CB scizor is an example. It's to revenge kill weakened sweepers (life orb types, half healthed mons, etc) and pursuit trap certain special sweepers). Also with the listed Sharp Beak Talonflame, Life Orb talonflame DOES OHKO, without being trapped into brave bird. Also the arguments that it deals with are fairly stupid on some of them. Some are good arguments, but the idea that perish set takes care of a pokemon that 2hkos it is lackluster. If they trade one pokemon for your mega that's perfectly fine. If you switch into most if the 70 mons listed, you lose. This means that Mega Gengar has to come in off of a free switch or a death, the former meaning you outplayed them and the latter meaning you lost something already. That does not sound like an issue to me.

P.S. to everyone responding to my argument with "but gengar has a better movepool, so ban it" please notice that even mega gengar has only 4 move slots. Just because it has options doesn't mean its broken. Garchomp is another mon with options (life orb sets, scarf sets, now megachomp sets) where you similarly have to wait and see what it has, but if you guess wrong you can end up losing a mon for free just like Mega Gengar. I'm open to logical counter argument, but a list of pokemon it beats just by starting on even terms doesn't convince me because gengar is clearly not a lead, even as toted here by the proponents of the ban. The perish set is strong, but has drawbacks. So do sweeper 4attack sets and Sub sets. Unlike blaziken (which i still disagree with, but can see the logic behind) it can not suddenly and unstoppably end a game. It does not have that kind of power. It CAN with good prediction and play uncontestedly take out 1 pokemon. But so can many others.

Mega Gengar only tailors its set to what it needs to beat. To use Innocent Criminal's example if you trying to support a Lucario sweep you need to clear things like Gyarados, Slowbro, Landorus-T, etc. Therefore, your moveset would be something like Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, HP Ice, and a filler move. This accomplishes exactly what it needs to do. The 4MSS doesn't work since it changes to only beat the pokemon that it needs to beat and nothing else because at that point, the bulk of the ground work for the sweep has already been done and the sweeper, in this case SD Lucario, can break through the rest of the teams after setting up. It's not trying to beat every Pokemon on that list in with one set nor should it try to.

Your point of saying Gengar isn't switching into those pokemon is valid and true but no one is saying it should be trying to. As you said yourself VoltTurn is everywhere on the ladder so getting it safely isn't all that difficult. Though saying that you played them by getting Gengar in safely isn't entirely true because VoltTurn is a game is 50/50 which isn't that skillful to begin with. This does became an issue because doing so is mindless and doesn't require a great level of skill to pull this off. I disagree with you implying that losing a pokemon to be able to trap the pokemon that is keeping you from sweeping isn't a good trade-off and its not an issue. This is the nature of offensive teams that use Mega Gengar, they often just require one thing to be taken out in order for them to win pull of a sweep. Losing a single Pokemon that often was going to help them in the long run is something that is gladly done if this mean that you can win the game a few turns later.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Ok, so I'm getting pretty tired of seeing these points about, "Mega Gengar isn't broken because it can't run everything at once, so there's always something that can still beat it." Arguments like this completely miss the point: Mega Gengar doesn't need to be able to kill everything, but it can be tailored to kill almost anything. Mega Gengar is not like Keldeo. Keldeo's problem was that it was designed to sweep through teams or do as much damage as possible, and it relied on specific Hidden Power types to beat its usual switch-ins. Mega Gengar, on the other hand, is not meant to sweep through teams or anything like that. It's designed to eliminate checks and counters to its teammates one Pokemon at a time. It's also not like Keldeo in that it's not a matter of it being dangerous until you know its moveset. Even if you know its moveset, it does nothing to solve the problem. With Keldeo, knowing what Hidden Power it had would tell you what was safe to leave in on it or bring it to check it. I could literally bring Mega Gengar in on your Landorus-T, tell you in the chatbox, "Hey, just letting you know that my Gengar has HP Ice and I'm about to kill your Landorus-T with it," and you'd be helpless to stop me.

Several people have this misconception that just because Mega Gengar isn't a mind boggling sweeper like Blaziken or an insane wallbreaker and general hard-hitter like Deoxys-N, it isn't broken. What they fail to understand is that Mega Gengar's sweeping potential and raw power were never the primary issue here. The issue is how it can use its natural talents to guarantee that it kills what it wants to kill. So it can't run Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb/Wave + Thunderbolt + HP Ice + HP Fire + Focus Blast + Substitute + Perish Song + whatever else. Who cares? Seriously, who cares? If my team is planned around a Thundurus sweep, why on earth would I want to run Thunderbolt for Gyarados or HP Ice for Gliscor when Thundurus can kill those himself? Let's say I'm basing a sweep around RP Landorus-I. Some of the best answers to RP Landorus-I pre-6th Gen were Gyarados, Latias, Celebi, and SpD Rotom-W. All I really need for those three are Shadow Ball, Sludge Wave, and Thunderbolt. Latias is heavily damaged or killed by Shadow Ball, Celebi suffers similarly to Sludge Wave, and Gyarados outright dies to Thunderbolt. Mega Gengar tanks Rotom-W's Hydro Pump pretty comfortably, and while Rotom-W can escape with Volt Switch, it won't get out without taking up to ~50% damage from Sludge Wave, which puts it right into range of Landorus-I's Focus Blast. That's just 3 moveslots; I still have one left for Substitute, HP Fire, or whatever else I want to run. The big deal is that there's nothing you can do about it! Once I bring Mega Gengar into your counter, you're sunk. You're just going to have to take your medicine because there's no counter-playing a Pokemon that can't be switched out of.

Wobbuffet can trap anything gengar can, and encores support mons and countercoats sweepers. I fail to see how this is different than gengar, who has to have different movesets to accomplish those goals. Base stats are a relevant argument, but I'd like to point out 600bst isnt even that great for a mega. Wobbufet comes in on a sweeper and stops it cold. Anything boosted can generally destroy gengar. They have different jobs, really, and should be treated as such.

The difference between Wobbuffet and Mega Gengar is that Wobbuffet is highly dependent on what the opponent actually does. So many things can go wrong when using Wobbuffet if you don't guess correctly. You might Encore the opponent's setup sweeper only to have them hit you directly and then KO the next turn. You might try Counter or Mirror Coat only to give your opponent a free Substitute, get statused, have the opponent set up another boost, or whatever else. Mega Gengar doesn't have this problem. When it comes in on something that its set is designed to kill, it will kill it. This is not a question. This is not a matter of proper prediction. This is a fact. If I want to kill your Slowbro and open up for a Terrakion sweep, I merely have to bring it in and your Slowbro will die to Shadow Ball the next turn.

Having read those posts, I think it's a bit obnoxious to assume that a total of 3 movesets take out 70 pokemon. I can do the same thing with 3 movesets. Listing at least 12 moves to deal with 70 pokemon is a bit insane, I'm sorry.

rey's first list of things beaten by Mega Gengar contained 62 Pokemon. 60 of them were beaten with a simple set of Shadow Ball / Sludge Wave / Focus Blast / Thunderbolt. It is not an issue of using 12 different moves. Even then, needing more than four moveslots to beat everything is honestly not a problem because, again, Mega Gengar is not designed to beat everything. It is tailored to beat only what it needs to beat in order to facilitate a sweep for a teammate, and it can usually do this with no more than 3 or 4 moveslots.

Garchomp is another mon with options (life orb sets, scarf sets, now megachomp sets) where you similarly have to wait and see what it has, but if you guess wrong you can end up losing a mon for free just like Mega Gengar.

There's a huge difference between Garchomp and Mega Gengar: Garchomp doesn't have Shadow Tag. The fact that prediction is even involved when facing a Garchomp makes it far different from facing a Mega Gengar. When Garchomp comes in, you have to predict what it's going to do, but your opponent also has to predict how you're going to respond and play accordingly. Prediction in this case goes both ways. When Mega Gengar comes in, there is very little prediction involved. Your opponent knows good and well that you can't switch out to anything that can actually beat Mega Gengar 1-on-1. They don't have to predict, and no amount of proper prediction is going to save your Pokemon.

Unlike blaziken (which i still disagree with, but can see the logic behind) it can not suddenly and unstoppably end a game. It does not have that kind of power. It CAN with good prediction and play uncontestedly take out 1 pokemon. But so can many others.

As explained earlier in this post, Mega Gengar isn't built to sweep through teams like a Blaziken. It's built to eliminate a specific list of Pokemon with no hope of retaliation so that a teammate can sweep. It does not rely on good prediction, because once Mega Gengar is in on something it can kill, that thing dies. Period. So many other Pokemon cannot do this because they cannot trap things. Only a small handful of other Pokemon have the ability to trap like Mega Gengar can, and problems with those comparisons have already been addressed ample times before.

 

[Halcyon.]

The 1 for 1 perish scenario comment was more directed at the likes of the goodra scenario. Goodra could come in and kill gengar 1 for 1 if gengar isnt already Mevod. I understand the idea that Gengar can be tailored to destroy a specific wall, but I feel like that is okay. Shadow tag not being present turn 1 is the reason this is okay. If via team preview I see I need skarm/hippowdown to stop your dnite, There is no reason to bring it in except vs dnite. If you use Dnite to "lure" then bring in Megar, youre going to eat an attack aimed at Dnite (a roar, an ice fang, etc) and then your gengar can no longer do its job, because it will die or get phased by coming in. This is why I believe Megar is okay, between it requiring a free switch and or death and it not having all moves all the time. I'm okay with "this gengar is meant to kill their skarm/hippowdown" for the same reason I'm okay with "this hippowdown/skarm is meant to stop your dnite/garchomp." They do a job they're designed to and they do it well, but they don't do everything else at the same time.

Turn x: I send in Dragonite, you send in Heatran

Turn x+1: You send in Hippo as I EQ

Turn x+2: You Ice Fang my Gengar

Turn x+3: I trap your Hippowdon and Energy Ball, your Hippo is gone

Yes this is assuming that Mega Gengar has already Mega Evolved but it has been explained numerous times how this is not difficult to accomplish (in this example, I could have Mega Evolved on Heatran earlier in the match). Point is, now your Hippo is gone. You could predict the switch and EQ, but that's such a risky move because I could set up on you and 2HKO with Outrage as you are forced to Roar or Slack Off. In any case, this is why it is unhealthy. Not to mention what I discussed in my first post in this thread. If I have TWO sweepers that are walled by Hippo (Dragonite and Lucario for example), then I can lure you with one, let it die, and bring in and trap you with Mega Gengar the next turn. This sounds familiar doesn't it? It's because this is the reason that Landorus was banned last Gen. It was too easy to create no-win situations with Keldeo / Landorus / Ttar. The same applies to Mega Gengar, only much MUCH more potent.

 

[farranpoison]

The strict definition of counter was not designed with Shadow Tag in mind and its useless to use it here. Gengar has no counters by this definition but neither does Shadow Tag Gothitelle, Wob, and other things.

Yeah, I know. That's why I linked waaaay back a few pages ago to Gothitelle's 5th Gen analysis. The thing I'm getting at is that people seem to keep thinking Gengar can be "countered" or whatnot and that's not true. You can't do anything about it. The main way of "getting around" Gothitelle was its sucky movepool, stats, and typing. MGengar doesn't have those faults.

Also, all this talk about 1 for 1ing and whatever reminds me of Magic: The Gathering. Specifically, around this one card: Balance.

It's effect reads: "Each player chooses a number of lands he or she controls equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Players discard cards and sacrifice creatures the same way." tl,dr: Each player must sacrifice/discard everything they have until each player has the same amount of lands, cards, and creatures (i.e. resources). Fair, right? It puts the board on a clean, neutral state.

Except lol no. Balance, ironically, was one of the most unbalanced cards in MTG history. Sure, each player gets to the same amount of cards/resources. But the smart player, the one using Balance, would make it so that their cards/resources would thrive in this now barren field, while the opponents would struggle to come back from losing most of their important resources.

MGengar is like this. Sure, it can trade 1 for 1. But a smart player will use that 1 for 1 to make sure to take out a vital target, resulting in the matchup turning into their favor. And with Shadow Tag, this is guaranteed.

 

[yoman5]

Turn x: I send in Dragonite, you send in Heatran

Turn x+1: You send in Hippo as I EQ

Turn x+2: You Ice Fang my Gengar

Turn x+3: I trap your Hippowdon and Energy Ball, your Hippo is gone

Yes this is assuming that Mega Gengar has already Mega Evolved but it has been explained numerous times how this is not difficult to accomplish (in this example, I could have Mega Evolved on Heatran earlier in the match). Point is, now your Hippo is gone. You could predict the switch and EQ, but that's such a risky move because I could set up on you and 2HKO with Outrage as you are forced to Roar or Slack Off. In any case, this is why it is unhealthy. Not to mention what I discussed in my first post in this thread. If I have TWO sweepers that are walled by Hippo (Dragonite and Lucario for example), then I can lure you with one, let it die, and bring in and trap you with Mega Gengar the next turn. This sounds familiar doesn't it? It's because this is the reason that Landorus was banned last Gen. It was too easy to create no-win situations with Keldeo / Landorus / Ttar. The same applies to Mega Gengar, only much MUCH more potent.

While this seems fine, I am averse to scenarios where you have 4 pokemon and I have 1 wall which im forced to switch in because of your already beneficial scenario (turn x). I have already been outplayed, in every turn of your scenario, so I fail to see how my point of mega gengar being good at removing 1 thing it's tailored to do so is being countered here. I had already said with good play and prediction mega gengar WILL kill what it's designed to. If instead turn X I send in hippo and you send in dragonite, it's entirely different. I have a chance to just outplay you and go for the EQ or a switch (your dnite wont be killing my hippo if you stay in, or likely the pursuit trapper I send in if I assume the switch). These turns x and x+1 are critical turns where whoever plays better wins. That's fine by me.

Yeah, I know. That's why I linked waaaay back a few pages ago to Gothitelle's 5th Gen analysis. The thing I'm getting at is that people seem to keep thinking Gengar can be "countered" or whatnot and that's not true. You can't do anything about it. The main way of "getting around" Gothitelle was its sucky movepool, stats, and typing. MGengar doesn't have those faults.

Also, all this talk about 1 for 1ing and whatever reminds me of Magic: The Gathering. Specifically, around this one card: Balance.

It's effect reads: "Each player chooses a number of lands he or she controls equal to the number of lands controlled by the player who controls the fewest, then sacrifices the rest. Players discard cards and sacrifice creatures the same way." tl,dr: Each player must sacrifice/discard everything they have until each player has the same amount of lands, cards, and creatures (i.e. resources). Fair, right? It puts the board on a clean, neutral state.

Except lol no. Balance, ironically, was one of the most unbalanced cards in MTG history. Sure, each player gets to the same amount of cards/resources. But the smart player, the one using Balance, would make it so that their cards/resources would thrive in this now barren field, while the opponents would struggle to come back from losing most of their important resources.

MGengar is like this. Sure, it can trade 1 for 1. But a smart player will use that 1 for 1 to make sure to take out a vital target, resulting in the matchup turning into their favor. And with Shadow Tag, this is guaranteed.

I'm a big player of magic, and so again, like with Balance, mega gengar is a trump card to be played after you've already set up a scenario that's favorable to these 1 for 1s. Mega gengar can not by itself guaruntee the kill on that wall. You have to play your cards (or pokemon) right before that turn arrives so that when the 1 for 1 occurs, you end up ahead. If you get outplayed and your sweeper is dead before their wall, they can just 1 for 1 your megar and be happy because they don't need that wall anymore. It is because of this behind the scenes and/or pre-turn-x play that I feel Mega Gengar doesn't deserve a ban. For mega gengar to work you have to outplay your opponent up until the trap. They can't necessarily do anything once trapped, but there are a lot of things that occur before the trap that cause that trap to be the game winning turn.

 

[farranpoison]

I'm a big player of magic, and so again, like with Balance, mega gengar is a trump card to be played after you've already set up a scenario that's favorable to these 1 for 1s. Mega gengar can not by itself guaruntee the kill on that wall. You have to play your cards (or pokemon) right before that turn arrives so that when the 1 for 1 occurs, you end up ahead. If you get outplayed and your sweeper is dead before their wall, they can just 1 for 1 your megar and be happy because they don't need that wall anymore. It is because of this behind the scenes and/or pre-turn-x play that I feel Mega Gengar doesn't deserve a ban. For mega gengar to work you have to outplay your opponent up until the trap. They can't necessarily do anything once trapped, but there are a lot of things that occur before the trap that cause that trap to be the game winning turn.

Hey, so you play Magic, cool. So you know what I mean when I talk about it.

Balance was broken, yes. However, it was not unstoppable. If you ran counters (basically played Blue) then you could stop Balance in its tracks. Sure, if you had no counters in hand, and Balance hit the field, you're screwed, but having no counters while playing blue meant you were either a terrible Blue player or your opponent was that much better than you. Yet, Balance was banned. It was able to be countered! But still banned. You basically were forced to run Blue to counter it.

If a MGengar player is outplayed and loses their sweeper, yeah they're screwed. This does not mean that MGengar is not broken. It means that the player using MGengar was an utter tool for saccing his best chance at winning.

You can say "play your cards right" until the 1 for 1. However, how exactly are you doing that? How do you know that the 1 for 1 will occur on a certain mon you have? Maybe the mon you think they'll try and kill is actually a non-factor and they want to kill another one instead? Guess, you say. Predict, you say. Well what happens when MGengar is in? You can't switch. You can't escape. They can and you are forced to sit there like a loon. There is no way to get around MGengar once it hits the field. It's as if it was a creature that says "Cannot be countered when cast" and "Can be returned to your hand at any time" and "deals lethal damage to a target, cannot be prevented/Split Second" on it. If a card was like that in MTG, it'd be banned in a heartbeat.

Edit: Also, you seem to be misunderstanding something. MGengar is not the trump card you use when conditions are favorable (i.e. after Balance). MGengar is Balance, the card you use to make the field favorable. And nothing can stop it.

 

[yoman5]

Hey, so you play Magic, cool. So you know what I mean when I talk about it.

Balance was broken, yes. However, it was not unstoppable. If you ran counters (basically played Blue) then you could stop Balance in its tracks. Sure, if you had no counters in hand, and Balance hit the field, you're screwed, but having no counters while playing blue meant you were either a terrible Blue player or your opponent was that much better than you. Yet, Balance was banned. It was able to be countered! But still banned. You basically were forced to run Blue to counter it.

If a MGengar player is outplayed and loses their sweeper, yeah they're screwed. This does not mean that MGengar is not broken. I means that the player using MGengar was an utter tool for saccing his best chance at winning.

You can say "play your cards right" until the 1 for 1. However, how exactly are you doing that? How do you know that the 1 for 1 will occur on a certain mon you have? Maybe the mon you think they'll try and kill is actually a non-factor and they want to kill another one instead? Guess, you say. Predict, you say. Well what happens when MGengar is in? You can't switch. You can't escape. They can and you are forced to sit there like a loon. There is no way to get around MGengar once it hits the field. It's as if it was a creature that says "Cannot be countered when cast" and "Can be returned to your hand at any time" and "deals lethal damage to a target, cannot be prevented/Split Second" on it. If a card was like that in MTG, it'd be banned in a heartbeat.

Again, I don't contest that mega gengar would be beyond broken if it didnt take 1 turn of setup because the base speed and shadow tag don't update until the next turn. But you can play around it in the same way that aegislash mind games happen or smeargle lead wars happen. Whoever plays those first three turns the best in smeargle mirrors (or even smeargle vs any other lead for that matter) wins the game. If they magic bounce your taunt, get the spore, and then smash and pass, theyre likely going to destroy a large number of your pokemon. However, if instead, you just go for the kill on the first turn while they magic bounce, the smeargle player loses. Playing around the mega that is gengar is in fact doable. The gengar player MUST stay in for one turn in order to mega. This allows you to switch in dnite/salamence/garchomp/sweeper of your choice here because gengar cant take most of those out 1 on 1 (allowing dnite a free dd, or slamence a free kill for moxie, etc) or simply bring in scizor or some other pusuit trapper and make the mega gengar near moot. I provided more than just pursuit trappers in the list of things to bring in expressly because not everyone packs a pursuit trapper. But many people pack a scarfer or something that doesnt mind 1 turn to set up (specifically something gengar won't ohko, again, dependant on reading/team preview) and force the gengar player into a bad position. There are many ways to make mega evolving gengar difficult, and many of those aren't even gengar specific. Scizor is a very versatile pokemon that can be used for many reasons, but just happens to kill mega gengar cold, even though it's not designed for the purpose. Other pokemon that make it difficult are things like Scarfchomp and other scarfers who don't exist solely to kill mega gengar, but can. The reason I'm making such a big point of this is that Mega Gengar does not require you to dedicate a slot to it. Mega gengar should be a consideration when building a team (do I have anything to stop a mega gengar from just ruining my day?) but so should Mega Kangaskhan, Rotom, Talonflame, and other high use OU pokemon. I'm not denying mega gengar is incredibly good. I'm merely pointing out its not impossible to deal with, and just cuz mega evoing gives it shadow tag it doesn't mean mega gengar has no counterplay.

Edit: I agree alex's comment on the lack of mega Gengar on the ladder. In non-pokebank OU I saw very few gengars at ~2k, and most of them were black sludge substitute versions.

 

[Fuzznip]

While this is anecdotal, I've seen very few Gengars on the PokebankOU ladder, let alone M-Gar, out of 100 games at reasonably high level play (2.2k+). If it is overpowered, then it's certainly a sleeper hit (which is certainly possible). I'd like to see higher usage before we even consider a suspect test, let alone a quickban.

Usage means absolutely nothing and should never be a factor when considering whether a Pokemon should be banned or not. Aegislash is the #1 used Pokemon right now. Does that mean it is broken? Absolutely not. The same idea can be said with MGengar. Despite its lower usage than what one would expect for an overpowered Pokemon, it is still evident as to why it needs to be removed from the metagame given the plethora of reasons being stated over and over again that many people seem to fail to acknowledge and truly understand.

 

[Style_Dota]

This is a ladder where Greninja is #2 and Keldeo is in UU range. Genesect also saw almost no usage. Yeah, let's use the ladder to justify things!

 

[McGrrr]

Obviously Mega Gengar will be relatively low usage. It's competing for one mega slot on a team, where there exists comparably powerful mega options, and normal Gengar is great already. HOWEVER, it's a salient point that it's not overly used, because that's an indication of its underwhelming performance (relative to hype).

I haven't tried to follow this thread much. My eyes glazed over at the stupidity a dozen pages ago. I've said mostly what I wanted to say on the first page, but these are my additional cents:

1. I tried to theorymon (with ZFS) a team built around Perish Trap Mega Gengar and, honestly, there's so much compromise. Such a team would be fundamentally flawed.
2. The argument that something is uber because it can Destiny Bond + trade itself for any wall is incredibly dumb. I'm very happy trading a Pokemon for your mega Pokemon. If you desperately need that wall for your team to function, maybe you or your team isn't as good as you think.
3. I don't have any experience of the Pokebank metagame, BUT I do have hundreds of battles pre bank under my belt (I'm one of the rare people in the top 100 with a variance of < 35), and as a threat, Mega Gengar lags behind both Kangaskhan and Charizard X.

alexwolf EDIT: Removed a wrong impression you had from the post.

 

[Style_Dota]

1. I tried to theorymon (with ZFS) a team built around Perish Trap Mega Gengar

There's already your issue. You don't build a team around Gengar, you build a team around an offensive Pokemon or defensive core, and use Mega Gengar to eliminate that Pokemon's counters.

 

[TheDoctor1]

lol ok fine remove that post. I have no reason to think that mega gengar should be banned from ou, I personally have yet to face one person who has used it well enough against me that I find it remotely broken. Also since volt turn is pretty popular shadow tag hasn't seemed like that big of issue. But like i said early on I have not faced a mega gengar that would make me think it should be banned, maybe others have fought someone using it at a degree were they think it is ban worthy.

 

[sidakarya]

You must be facing some pretty bad M-Gengar users, if they want to trap a volt-turner.

If anything, volt-turn helps M-Gengar on your own side, because it means M-Gengar doesn't have to take a hit before trap-killing what have you.

 

[McGrrr]

There's already your issue. You don't build a team around Gengar, you build a team around an offensive Pokemon or defensive core, and use Mega Gengar to eliminate that Pokemon's counters.

Maybe I needed to be clearer. The idea wasn't to make Mega Gengar the centrepiece. The idea was to incorporate it into a team that can function with or without it, and it's incredibly suboptimal. Perish Trap Mega Genger compromises your entire team because it leaves a fundamental weakness somewhere.

 

[farranpoison]

Maybe I needed to be clearer. The idea wasn't to make Mega Gengar the centrepiece. The idea was to incorporate it into a team that can function with or without it, and it's incredibly suboptimal. Perish Trap Mega Genger compromises your entire team because it leaves a fundamental weakness somewhere.

...Why are you using Perish Trap? For the sake of using Perish Trap?

People are saying that Perish Trap is strong, but only on teams that need it to get rid of specific counters. If you need a mon killed that can only be killed by Perish trap, then sure, run it. Otherwise, don't.

 

[McGrrr]

...Why are you using Perish Trap? For the sake of using Perish Trap?

People are saying that Perish Trap is strong, but only on teams that need it to get rid of specific counters. If you need a mon killed that can only be killed by Perish trap, then sure, run it. Otherwise, don't.

No, I was planning to test it, and because people were crying about it.

The way I figure, Perish Trap compromises yourself and the Taunt/Destiny Bond option is LOL.

That leaves Focus Blast/Shadow Ball/Substitute/Pain Split, which I think is legitimately close to being overpowered.

 

[Style_Dota]

Maybe I needed to be clearer. The idea wasn't to make Mega Gengar the centrepiece. The idea was to incorporate it into a team that can function with or without it, and it's incredibly suboptimal. Perish Trap Mega Genger compromises your entire team because it leaves a fundamental weakness somewhere.

What I'm saying is, if you already start by using Perish Trapping Gengar, then you need to design a team that has counters (Stall) where Mega Gengar can eliminate. This is why going in with a Mega Gengar set from square zero will ultimately cause the team to be flawed, because instead of tailoring the Gengar to counter aspects of the team, you're trying to create a team based around something that you're not even sure if it's necessary.

It's a very basic aspect of team building. You don't start with a support Pokemon, you start with a core, something you want to revolve the team around. As it was stated many times in this tread, Mega Gengar is not a core Pokemon.

 

[McGrrr]

What I'm saying is, if you already start by using Perish Trapping Gengar, then you need to design a team that has counters (Stall) where Mega Gengar can eliminate. This is why going in with a Mega Gengar set from square zero will ultimately cause the team to be flawed, because instead of tailoring the Gengar to counter aspects of the team, you're trying to create a team based around something that you're not even sure if it's necessary.

It's a very basic aspect of team building. You don't start with a support Pokemon, you start with a core, something you want to revolve the team around. As it was stated many times in this tread, Mega Gengar is not a core Pokemon.

Come on, I didn't patronise you, so don't patronise me. We started with a core of Scizor/Rotom/Gengar and explored a ton of options.

 

[Style_Dota]

Come on, I didn't patronise you, so don't patronise me. We started with a core of Scizor/Rotom/Gengar and explored a ton of options.

I'm not patronizing you? I think you're taking my posts a bit too offensively. If I came off that way, I'm sorry.

That's still your issue. The core doesn't accomplish anything. You have a volt turn core with a trapping gengar. What are you trying to lure in to Perish Trap? In fact, with that core, you're better off using an offensive Mega Gengar in order to eliminate Physical walls, since you can volt switch into Scizor, then U-Turn out into Gengar, which would lure a Physical wall in. After that point, you add a Stealth Rocker, and two physical sweepers, a set up sweeper and a late game cleaner, and that would be the ideal.

 

[McGrrr]

I'm not patronizing you? I think you're taking my posts a bit too offensively. If I came off that way, I'm sorry.

That's still your issue. The core doesn't accomplish anything. You have a volt turn core with a trapping gengar. What are you trying to lure in to Perish Trap? In fact, with that core, you're better off using an offensive Mega Gengar in order to eliminate Physical walls, since you can volt switch into Scizor, then U-Turn out into Gengar, which would lure a Physical wall in. After that point, you add a Stealth Rocker, and two physical sweepers, a set up sweeper and a late game cleaner, and that would be the ideal.

1. Special walls and stuff like Ferrothorn switch into Rotom all day, every day, and Rotom has the bonus of keeping Pursuit Scizor away.
2. Physical walls switch into Scizor, and Scizor has the bonus of keeping Pursuit Tyranitar away.

 

[Alter]

mega gengar really isn't as overpowered as some people make it out to be, it's really frail, you know?

Its frailty is a non-issue when you can tailor-make your Mega Gengar set to get rid of specific things. Its power to trap and dismantle is its issue - not whether or not it can be revenge killed easily. As by the point that you are sending something in to revenge kill it, it has most likely done some serious damage. Shadow Tag is the main reason why it is so difficult to handle. Yes, specific Pokemon can escape the effects of Shadow Tag in specific circumstances; however, it is up to the Mega Gengar user to choose what they want to trap and ultimately, get rid of to open up holes.

also, since sticky web affects mega gengar, you can lower it's speed when it switches in, outspeed it, and maybe KO it before it attacks
and there's always volt switch and u-turn

Sticky Web affects other Pokemon in Ubers such as Groudon, Kyogre and Arceus. This argument doesn't really hold much ground because you can apply it to everything and it relies on you having both a) set up sticky web to begin with, b) being able to keep it on the field and c) the sticky web actually making a difference or not as to whether Mega Gengar rips what it wants to shreds. Even with the Sticky Web speed drop it can still outspeed a plethora of Pokemon and dispose of more defensive ones with its absurd power.

Initially I was opposed to a Mega Gengar ban. Although, I do agree with a lot of the posts in favor of its ban.

 

[EtherDrive]

so for a perish song set you would run

Perish Song/Substitute/protect(?)/attacking move (?)



you switch in Gengar and they can either

-Switch out before you MEvo, Or Attack you

Or. Something on your team falls

you send out Gengar-> MEvo Protect (?) which can turn into them switching in something, or you avoiding an attack and they're now trapped.

Now with this knowledge you can either attack them (if you even run an offensive move), hope it KO's or, if you know it's not and you're in danger of taking a shit ton of damage switch out and then bring something in to take the hit and use Gengar for later.

Later comes and you see something you want to trap. Something falls and you send Gengar in to deal with it with Perish song.

Now you Perish song -> They can in turn leech seed your/WoW you, etc so forth.... then you go through the 1 Sub/1 Protect and take passive damage from any dot they've put on you. You now have a weakened Mega Gengar.

I don't get it, can someone explain, or possibly present a scenario explaining how Perish trapping can be broken? cause right now with the way I see it, you're better off just all out attacking