A lot of people are voting "No" in order to have a suspect testing. I don't have a problem with that, this is the first ban of a Mega-Stone we could have and we need to consider all possible scenarios once Pokebank is out.
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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]
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A lot of people are voting "No" in order to have a suspect testing. I don't have a problem with that, this is the first ban of a Mega-Stone we could have and we need to consider all possible scenarios once Pokebank is out.
Gengar is amazing yes. Ubers no. This was honestly a hard decisions for me but there are plenty of threats that only get 2HKO well being able to OHKO back (anything with a earthquake ever that can live one of genga'rs attacks) and threats that just soak up Gengars damage non-stop (assault vest Goodra, Blissey) He is murdered by three common six gen priority users flying gem Talonflame, Bellyjet Azumarill and a swords dance Aegislash set. Prankster users can paralyze him and he isn't exactly going to stop sweeps from well boosted sweepers such as Volcarona.
Unlike Blaziken who deserved his ban as there were what? like three genuine threats that could stop Blaziken cold and he after one turn he could basically already out-speed the entire tier,Gengar has several flaws and counters, he's powerful yes but not invincible. Sorry Gengar maybe gen VII
Unlike Blaziken who deserved his ban as there were what? like three genuine threats that could stop Blaziken cold and he after one turn he could basically already out-speed the entire tier,Gengar has several flaws and counters, he's powerful yes but not invincible. Sorry Gengar maybe gen VII
I look at it from another angle. Yes, Gengar has only four moveslots, but the issue is that until it shows you what moves it packs, you can't tell what it'll be running until it uses those moves. On any other pokemon that'd be fine, scout it, react appropriately... But Megar has Shadow Tag and prevents you from actually reacting properly. You might be totally safe using X because Megar isn't using Y, but if it is, you can't tell until its too late and you lose X.
And was that based on speculation before he was released, or did you get to play with him a little first?
That's double prediction on both parts, that renders it moot. Turn 2 Shadow Tag gives Gengar an immense advantage there, but again, these are all conditional scenarios. Either he's broken enough to handle everything or he has to be played hyper-conservatively with the right team to do his job. Which is it?
Test the bastard. I have no problem with a broken mon being banned, but what's with all this excessive hubris about, essentially, a new mon's brokeness before he's even legitimately released?
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So your entire argument hinges on that first turn before it mega evolves, where it is free to do whatever it wants. You have to successfully switch in a Pokemon that eliminates it right then and there without being 2HKO'd by Gengar's moves or screwed over by its support moves, otherwise you concede that there is no need for the Gengar user to predict at all? Good to know.
There is nothing wrong with tailoring something to take care of a specific threat on the opponent's team, be it with lures or other methods, but MGengar makes it such that there is no playing around it. There is a very high reward in using MGengar to dismantle your opponent, and the only risk I see is "I can't use another Mega Pokemon because of it." Damn I must sound like a broken record but you people really don't get it.
Belly drum azumarill, neutral field where both are in at the same time, mega gengar would kill it on the turn it goes belly drum... azumarill just needs a perfect scenerio where mega gengar magically decides to act like a check to azumarill for it to win with that set. The issue still remains, though, how do you hit mega gengar with these pokes if he chooses not to be hit? Non of these have pursuit, and most require one set up turn (azumarill, aegislash) to OHKO. Blissey/Goodra have been established to lose to the perish set.
But again... I feel like both ways this argument is a failure, both by me and you. We're discussing what stops it when the true question more comes in "Can you stop it from stopping you?". Sure, it is killable. That much isn't in question. But, can it take out the necessary pokemon the rest of the team needs gone before you can stop it? Without maneuvering, this part becomes difficult. The other issue that befalls here is the threats mega gengar will want to eliminate changes match to match, meaning you have to know what your opponent is gunning for and save that pokemon. This even hurts lures because case-to-case basis on whether or not mega gengar feels like clearing a specific pokemon out.
To all that are debating here, remember when debating that the all-knowing counsel has already brought up this to be banned as Uber support, not an Uber sweeper. The two definitions are not at all similar and the arguments made have to be adjusted as such to justify/refute banning as an uber support, not an uber sweeper.
Well, actually, there was this goddamn big thread in DP Uncharted Territory titled "How will you counter Gaburaisu?"... It had always been borderline broken, but only when somebody discovered (or stole from Japanese players, whatever) the Yache set that people finally stopped to finally consider banning it (and 90% of the drama and hesitation that preceded the ban wouldn't have existed if Garchomp were a BST 600 legendary instead of a pseudo).
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I see a few people arguing match ups and what Gengar can and cannot kill. Let's establish a few things first:
1. Before mega evolving, Gengar is a completely viable threat. It can send off a solid attack on the turn it mega evolves. In no way is it a liability on this turn, because people had found ample opportunity to use Gengar in previous gens.
2. After it has mega evolved, Gengar becomes a fantastic support pokemon. When I make a team with mega Gengar, the most important question is "what pokemon can Gengar kill?" I choose this, not the opponent. Whether this be through Perish Song or 4 attacks is up to the team. Once I've established that, the next question is "Once those pokemon are eliminated, is there any pokemon that can sweep, after 1 turn of a set-up, the entire metagame?" Up till now, everything I said should be applicable to most people. After this is completely my opinion.
I do not believe there is a pokemon that can use the holes provided by Gengar to sweep unconditionally (or even under most conditions). If this was last gen, I would believe Gengar is broken immediately, but this gen has some complications, namely the introduction of mega evolutions. In the hands of a competent player, Gengar can take down 2 pokemon, most of the time. To me this WOULD have been broken, but it is so no longer. Gamefreak, rather idiotically, decided to introduce a subset of pokemon that are superior to most other pokemon (the megas, or more accurately, a decent amount of megas). With a good number of them, you can take down at least two opposing pokemon, or sweep weakened pokemon, far easier than you could with most pokemon. The "down side" is you can only use one. This one IS more important than the member of your team. While teams don't necessarily have to be built around them, they are more pivotal than regular. pokemon. For this reason, I don't believe mega Gengar is broken; it is simply the most obvious example of this new kind of pokemon. I am conflicted though, and wouldn't be upset either way.
1. Before mega evolving, Gengar is a completely viable threat. It can send off a solid attack on the turn it mega evolves. In no way is it a liability on this turn, because people had found ample opportunity to use Gengar in previous gens.
2. After it has mega evolved, Gengar becomes a fantastic support pokemon. When I make a team with mega Gengar, the most important question is "what pokemon can Gengar kill?" I choose this, not the opponent. Whether this be through Perish Song or 4 attacks is up to the team. Once I've established that, the next question is "Once those pokemon are eliminated, is there any pokemon that can sweep, after 1 turn of a set-up, the entire metagame?" Up till now, everything I said should be applicable to most people. After this is completely my opinion.
I do not believe there is a pokemon that can use the holes provided by Gengar to sweep unconditionally (or even under most conditions). If this was last gen, I would believe Gengar is broken immediately, but this gen has some complications, namely the introduction of mega evolutions. In the hands of a competent player, Gengar can take down 2 pokemon, most of the time. To me this WOULD have been broken, but it is so no longer. Gamefreak, rather idiotically, decided to introduce a subset of pokemon that are superior to most other pokemon (the megas, or more accurately, a decent amount of megas). With a good number of them, you can take down at least two opposing pokemon, or sweep weakened pokemon, far easier than you could with most pokemon. The "down side" is you can only use one. This one IS more important than the member of your team. While teams don't necessarily have to be built around them, they are more pivotal than regular. pokemon. For this reason, I don't believe mega Gengar is broken; it is simply the most obvious example of this new kind of pokemon. I am conflicted though, and wouldn't be upset either way.
Once people started playing, you mean?
Well, there was Rhyperior.
And Rhyperior.
And I guess Rhyperior, too.
We can't forget Rhyperior, either.
In Rhyperior's case, it took us a week (or was it days (or hours)) to realize it had been hyped to hell and back and was in fact quite shitty. With Garchomp, the threat was always there, but people were still getting used to DP's offensive metagame after years of ADV, and even then it was clearly above everything else. With MegaGengar, it's different; people are playing with it already and not only the Council, but some/many/the majority? of non-Council players believe it's obviously broken and wouldn't survive a Suspect test.
A few people even say it's not 100% broken now, but with Perish Song available and people actually knowing what they're doing (aka "they're not the average ladderdude"), its brokeness will be beyond obvious once the test starts. People will play to win (and to prove their point) in a Suspect ladder and it will be clear as water that Gengarite's broken. The Council is so certain of this they are willing to quickban the Mega instead of wasting manpower in a useless Suspect test.
You may call it a rushed decision, but then you might as well call our initial banlist rushed too, as these quickbans are an extension of it as the Council members have said already. Gengarite has been a "suspect" all along; the Council simply gave it a chance to be played in OU without the suspect mark stamped on its forehead.
We have played with Mega Gengar. Regardless of whether you feel it is "real" Pokemon or not, there is a Pokebank OU tier on Showdown right now. In the event that Bank works significantly different than what we think right now, and either Gengar is nerfed (the only way I see this happening is if he somehow loses access to Perish Song, which isn't even his strongest point) or if other things are significanty buffed to the point where he is not as strong (again, with Shadow Tag as an ability, I'm not sure how this would be the case), I don't think anyone would be opposed to re-evaluating it at that time. However, since the powers that be have made Pokebank OU our de-facto OU tier for the time being, that is where it should be judged.
I'm simply hearing two opposite arguments primarily. He's versatile to the point you don't know what he has and can threaten anything, and that the reason he's facing a ban is specifically because of Perish Song. Which is it? The variability argument isn't grounds enough on its own and my point is if Gengar has to be played a certain way to be this dangerous which is very conservatively and with the Perish set, then there are still many things a team can have to make that manageable. Fact is Gengar requires set up and a degree of prediction to be that level of dangerous. I'm still waiting for this over centralization part or the ability to carry teams. I don't see why suspect testing is so unreasonable, particularly with Pokebank coming in a mere few weeks.
Anyway I think I've said my piece on this topic enough times without so I'll withdraw from here on out. I'll respect the decision either way in the end, not that that counts for anything.
Anyway I think I've said my piece on this topic enough times without so I'll withdraw from here on out. I'll respect the decision either way in the end, not that that counts for anything.
This is pointless when it comes to mega Gengar. Literally nothing that we can't know for sure is able to make it easier to stop or make it fail at its primary job. If anything, I would say it gets better because it gets extra targets that will still be relevant even with their nerfs(Latios, Latias, Jirachi Celebi, Heatran), not to mention it also gets MORE partners that will love being paired with it including but not limited to Keldeo, Thundurus(both), Manaphy, and Genesect(this is the only one that is probably broken on his own). Loss of Disable is not a big deal for the silly perish trap because it doesn't need that anyway. As far I can tell, all of our "theory" on Gengar will be accurate no matter what. And quoting a council member here:
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If you think that Perish Song is part of why it's being banned, you are sorely wrong. Sure, Perish Song is a viable set. But no, that's not why it's being banned. You say he's versatile? You betcha. Versatile to the point that he can be tailored to bring any moveset specifically used to counter/kill mons that the rest of a good player built team has trouble with. Your team have Skarmory troubles? Tailor MGengar's set so that it deals with it. Same for Blissey, Ferrothorn, Quagsire, etc etc etc.
You see, I'm assuming you read Haunter's post about the definition of an Uber support mon. I'll sum it up again if you don't remember. And Uber support mon is Uber when it can consistently take out enemy mons/support the rest of the team so that the rest of the team can sweep unhindered. I don't know how else you can be more consistent with Shadow Tag. You cannot switch to a counter. You cannot react to it. You have to sit there and weep as whatever mon MGengar has decided to kill (with its current moveset) dies horribly. And you can't do anything about it.
Prediction? Set up? Shadow Tag removes prediction by not letting the opponent switch unless they have Shed Shell or is a Ghost. In fact, as I keep saying Shadow Tag does not allow the opponent to do FUCK ALL. Any other mon can be dealt with, no matter how strong they are, by playing around them and switching to counters. MGengar lols at your feeble attempts to "counter" or "play around it" with SHADOW TAG.
Dugtrio: Can only trap ground based mons and has shitty attack.
Wobbuffet: Has to rely on the opponent to hit Wobbuffet to kill anything and can't actively kill things on its own (i.e. attacking).
Gothitelle: lol stats, movepool, and terrible typing.
MGengar: Can trap anything it is able to kill, has amazing stats, movepool, and typing.
Scarfers? Why is MGengar trying to take them out. Volturner/Uturner? Same. Ghosts? Ghosts sure love Shadow Balls to the face off of 170 SpA. Switching when you know MGengar will come in? Well aren't you the psychic. I suppose you know MGengar's moveset during the turn it MEvos?
Nope.
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You don't want to compare Mega Gengar, who has a giant Movepool, awesome stats and useful typing, with the likes of Dugtrio, do you? You can't compare them just because they can trap things: they work in a really different way. Gengar can also pick its foes, but in a lot more efficient and diverse manner. Dugtrio can't revenge kill anything not weak to Ground/Reversal.
Huh, the first one. I didn't say only Perish Song makes it broken, but there are people that do not see it as "100% broken" already; that is, there's something missing to make this borderline pokémon truly broken. And this only happens because Misdreavus is unobtainable in XY and Perish Song is thus unavailable to Gengar. The moment it gets Perish Song, it will be a pokémon that can kill, can Taunt, can Bond, can Perish and, while it can't do all of this at once, it can be tailored to suit any of your needs.
Hell, as rey pointed out, even without Perish Song, it can easily KO 65 out of the 100 most used Pokémon. You only really 100% absolutely need Perish Song for Gastrodon and CM Blissey (lol).
After five generations, Game Freak finally realized that mechanic was dumb as shit and now both the mother and the father can pass down Egg Moves. Therefore, all Egg combinations are possible now.
Are you seriously comparing Mega Gengar to those? 2 of them(Dugtrio and Magnezone) have very limited pool of mons they can actually trap. Gothitelle is really damn weak if it is not holding Choice Specs and too slow if not holding a Choice Scarf; Gengar is as strong as specs and faster than scarf Gothitelle with a way better movepool and typing. And Wobbuffet can only really trap choiced mons and walls; Gengar is able to trap pretty much everything slower than it(this includes some scarf mons too).
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Both are really meaningful in this argument. Perish Trapper MGar has to be played conservatively, yes, but not to the point that it takes noticeable effort to do so. Sure, versatility has it's uses (farranpoison sums it up pretty well.) but it seems to me that the Perish Trapper set can be used to take out a huge variety of threats. If that's not your thing, then like farran said, MGar can be tailored to take out pretty much anything.
The difference is what those mons can do with their trapping abilities. Dugtrio, Wobbuffet and Gothitelle can take out more specific threats than MGar. Shadow Tag isn't a basis for banning on it's own, but it certainly is in combination with what MGar offers in addition.
Please look at the stats of those three respective pokemon named, and their movepools. Dugtrio is OU even though his stats otherwise are closer to NU (Base 405). His sole OU purpose is either trap/kill blissey or heatran (reversal/eq sets) Wubb is OU and not ubers because he's predictable and very easy to play around. He has five moves to use. Goth has been BL with 490 stats and really nothing going for it. It can Trick/CM and two attacks, but it still takes hits, so even this is generally paired with memento. Shadow tag/trap abilities are what make these pokemon so good. But then, mega gengar base stat 600 with huge speed and SpA is here, playing a completely different competitive role.
Uturn's and voltswitch's distribution is limiting and not viable on all styles of teams. Stall will not run it, nor will any variant of stall. Most HO variants aren't huge into these moves either, and the only team with 5/6 are actual voltturn teams.
Yes, but none can even compete with what Mega Gengar can do. Dugtrio is as bulky as a wet paper bag and only trapped Ninetails, Heatran and Tyranitar while Mega Gengar can trap everything barring Ghosts and U-Turn users that are faster and can live a hit. Wobbuffett has like 4 usable moves and can only beat choice pokemon and walls so I don't see the comparison here either. Gothitelle was always Choiced and limited to what it was able to trap successfully.
I would suggest you read Reyscarface's post. and this one as well.
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The problem with these type of threads is (lets be blunt for a few minutes), there are good opinions and bad opinions. Good ones are reasoned, intelligible ones that someone arguing the opposite can understand. Then there are bad ones; the ones repeating things form other threads that don't quite apply, the ones from those who haven't played with Mega Gengar, the ones who don't understand that Gengar isn't supposed to match up 1v1 vs anything single pokemon. In a thread like this, the good ideas from both sides are often ignored (I feel like mine was a decent one, that no one responded to but obviously this is IMO), and the bad ones are answered because, ofc, they are so easy to rebut and it feels like you will gain more traction for your side by doing this.
For this (and other) reasons, I understand why the OU council just made the decisions on Blaziken. However, I feel like it would have been beneficial to the community, to have made it a public debate. So everyone could see your thought process, one side would present arguments, other side would rebut and then present theirs and so on. I know this is probably "off-topic", but I hope you leave it so others can see it moderators!
For this (and other) reasons, I understand why the OU council just made the decisions on Blaziken. However, I feel like it would have been beneficial to the community, to have made it a public debate. So everyone could see your thought process, one side would present arguments, other side would rebut and then present theirs and so on. I know this is probably "off-topic", but I hope you leave it so others can see it moderators!
U-Turn and Volt Switch are on a majority of teams, with Rotom-W and Scizor being (together) on roughly 1/3-1/2 of teams on the ladder. Wobbuffet can trap anything gengar can, and encores support mons and countercoats sweepers. I fail to see how this is different than gengar, who has to have different movesets to accomplish those goals. Base stats are a relevant argument, but I'd like to point out 600bst isnt even that great for a mega. Wobbufet comes in on a sweeper and stops it cold. Anything boosted can generally destroy gengar. They have different jobs, really, and should be treated as such.
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Having read those posts, I think it's a bit obnoxious to assume that a total of 3 movesets take out 70 pokemon. I can do the same thing with 3 movesets. Listing at least 12 moves to deal with 70 pokemon is a bit insane, I'm sorry. Each set in and of itself doesn't deal with 70 pokemon. Each set is designed to deal with a specific type of pokemon, just as with any other pokemon. CB scizor is an example. It's to revenge kill weakened sweepers (life orb types, half healthed mons, etc) and pursuit trap certain special sweepers). Also with the listed Sharp Beak Talonflame, Life Orb talonflame DOES OHKO, without being trapped into brave bird. Also the arguments that it deals with are fairly stupid on some of them. Some are good arguments, but the idea that perish set takes care of a pokemon that 2hkos it is lackluster. If they trade one pokemon for your mega that's perfectly fine. If you switch into most if the 70 mons listed, you lose. This means that Mega Gengar has to come in off of a free switch or a death, the former meaning you outplayed them and the latter meaning you lost something already. That does not sound like an issue to me.
P.S. to everyone responding to my argument with "but gengar has a better movepool, so ban it" please notice that even mega gengar has only 4 move slots. Just because it has options doesn't mean its broken. Garchomp is another mon with options (life orb sets, scarf sets, now megachomp sets) where you similarly have to wait and see what it has, but if you guess wrong you can end up losing a mon for free just like Mega Gengar. I'm open to logical counter argument, but a list of pokemon it beats just by starting on even terms doesn't convince me because gengar is clearly not a lead, even as toted here by the proponents of the ban. The perish set is strong, but has drawbacks. So do sweeper 4attack sets and Sub sets. Unlike blaziken (which i still disagree with, but can see the logic behind) it can not suddenly and unstoppably end a game. It does not have that kind of power. It CAN with good prediction and play uncontestedly take out 1 pokemon. But so can many others.
What you don't seem to be getting is that MGengar has the potential to deal with anything it so chooses. Dugtrio, Wobbuffet, Gothitelle, etc can only take out very specific threats. Dugtrio/grounded + weakened opponents, Wobbuffet/weakened choiced mons or walls, Gothitelle/weakened threats and even that's not guaranteed. MGengar can be tailored to take out anything the rest of the team can't deal with easily.
MGengar does not need to take out everything. It also is not a sweeper. What it is supposed to do is take out mons the rest of your team can't touch easily, and win by letting your now unresisted sweepers take out the garbage. You say that it can only take out one or two targets. EXACTLY. It can take out those targets guaranteed. Read the Uber definition for a support mon? An Uber support mon is a mon who consistently is able to take out enemy mons/set conditions up so that the rest of the team can sweep unhindered.
Sure, other mons can take out one mon from the opponent's team. But is it guaranteed? If you can switch, no it is not. But MGengar has Shadow Tag, which you cannot escape from. Thus it is guaranteed MGengar can kill off one or two mons. That's all it needs to do.
I did include the caveat that it was only guarunteed with good play and prediction. Please do not misquote me.
As a counter example, blaziken did not really require counterplay, protect gave a guarunteed +1 speed regardless of play prior to that turn. Megar has to be already evolved, else it gives one turn for the opponent to choose and then play around your gengar if it's able to switch out without dying. This opportunity for counterplay is what differentiates Megar from blaziken.
(edit: also a few pages back someone posted that mega gengar ohkos assault vest 252+ ttar. Timid megar doesnt even ohko 252+ spD ttar in sand, let alone with assault vest. Not relevant to my post specifically, but I thought I'd point that out. Calc done using Honko)
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It's not that mega Gengar can take out a Pokemon, it's that it can take out any Pokemon. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Gen V UU, but the reason that Gothitelle was banned from that tier was similar to the one being proposed now. It had no trouble eliminating bulky water types for Darmanitan or Swampert / Rhyperior / Nidoqueen so Sub CM Raikou could sweep. This is like that, only a million times worse because Mega Gengar is an amazing Pokemon even outside of its ability. You can say "Mega Gengar only has four moveslots" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that it can use those four moveslots to take out any given wall. Please understand that I do not mean every wall, just any given wall. The difference between Mega Gengar and Mega Garchomp is that Mega Garchomp can't assuredly lure in and KO something like Skarmory or Hippowdon (because it doesn't have Shadow Tag). Mega Gengar doesn't even have to lure anything. It can simply wait until you are forced to bring it in and then trap it, either weakening it to the point where it can no longer wall the threat it's supposed to (Hippo/Skarm walling DD Nite for example), or take it out entirely with Perish Song or Destiny Bond or even simply attacking it as Rey already pointed out.
I also want to address the idea that a 1 for 1 situation with Perish Song Gengar is worth it for you. So long as you got rid of Mega Gengar, who cares, right? This is wrong though. If I trade my Mega Gengar for your Hippowdon or Skarmory and I have a DD Nite waiting in the wings to take you down, then I win. That's that. It's not really a 1 for 1 because the Pokemon I'm giving up has already done its job (i.e., it has eliminated your counter to my sweeper), while you have only taken out a Pokemon whose sole purpose was KOing your wall, thus giving me an inherent advantage
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