Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

Do you think that Gengarite should be banned from OU?


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if you run perish song/sub/protect/destiny bond, you can almost always guarantee 2 KOs a game, no matter what the opponent does, outside of taunting and phazing
perish song/sub/protect/shadow means you don't get stopped by taunt, this is definitely the best set with perish song but there are other options like

perish song/sub/disable/shadow ball
perish song/sub/disable/destiny bond

which are also pretty good sets at taking down opposing pokes
 
if you run perish song/sub/protect/destiny bond, you can almost always guarantee 2 KOs a game, no matter what the opponent does, outside of taunting and phazing
perish song/sub/protect/shadow means you don't get stopped by taunt, this is definitely the best set with perish song but there are other options like

perish song/sub/disable/shadow ball
perish song/sub/disable/destiny bond

which are also pretty good sets at taking down opposing pokes
But instead of just saying that, can you please present a scenario where this is actually a big deal and will happen majority of matches where there's Leech Seed, WoW, and Priority that can hit it

the big thing here is 60/80/95 and actually having to use a turn to both MEVo, AND perish song
 
i'm pretty sure if you perish song the switch in, and since you're most likely faster, just sub and protect the leech seed, switch out, there, leech seed threat gone
megagengar doesn't give a rats ass about wisp, let him take him, it's better him than your physical guys
protect goes before priority and outside of scizor, none run priority and pursuit, you can also run disable to get rid of the priority move after it hits you once

megagengar outspeeds and 1-2HKOs all other ghosts with shadow ball
all taunters are 1-2HKO'd by shadow ball or another move of his
shed shell is rarely used, he wrecks pokes with the other moves
megagengar can 1-2HKO all pokes with EQ and is faster than they are
we already have an EV set that shows you can have him around similar levels to rotom
 
so for a perish song set you would run

Perish Song/Substitute/protect(?)/attacking move (?)

Now you Perish song -> They can in turn leech seed your/WoW you, etc so forth.... then you go through the 1 Sub/1 Protect and take passive damage from any dot they've put on you. You now have a weakened Mega Gengar.

I don't get it, can someone explain, or possibly present a scenario explaining how Perish trapping can be broken? cause right now with the way I see it, you're better off just all out attacking
I've personally never seen the Perish trapping set through experience but if I were to come up with a Perish Trapping set for M-Gengar off the top of my head, it would include Hypnosis + Perish Song + Sub/Protect + Destiny Bond/Shadow Ball. On paper provided that you hit your Hypnosis attacks, this looks like it could take out 2-3 Pokemon without taking too much damage at all.

The problem with M-Gengar is that it allows for easy, almost unskillful access for the user to trap something and finish it off and there is almost nothing they can do about it!

Regardless of whether Perish Trapping is present or the offensive M-Gengar's ability to outspeed base 110's that it used to tie with like Latios and outspeed things that used to check it like Starmie and OHKO. By the time an opponent gains a position to take M-Gengar out of the game, 90% of the time it would have done it's job already
 
Mega Gengar should remain OU.

Shadow Tag cannot trap the abundant ghosts wandering in the metagame.

Common U-Turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass, or even Shed Shell item avoids trapping.

Mega Gengar is frail. His longevity is limited to a single turn or two, susceptible to powerful priority like Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, and even Shadow Sneak.

Destiny Bond sets, like any others, can be Taunted.

Because of his nonexistent bulk, Mega Gengar is so often simply walled and defeated even upon a successful trap - Pokemon like common Gliscor walls any set he might run, and can subsequently OHKO.

Mega Gengar loses the valuable Ground immunity. This forces Mega Gengar to switch more frequently, making Shadow Tagging less effective.

Mega Gengar running Substitute is still threatened by sound-based attacks or Infiltrators like Noivern.

With a vast array of checks and counters, Mega Gengar, while versatile and powerful, does not break the OU metagame, nor limit team-building or force players into 1 or 2 specific counters.
Okay, so let's get this straight.

So every Pokemon that doesn't normally run U-Turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass (or hell, doesn't even get them) should run Shed Shell as an item. Totally legit.

And how are you going to switch out the Pokemon that don't have priority before Gengar can kill them.

130 base speed, so either a super fast taunter (Deo-S, which dies to Shadow Ball if you taunt), or run a scarfed Taunter, yeah, great shut down.

If you're switching Mega Gengar into attacks, you're using it wrong. Also, pretty sure Hidden Power Ice OHKOs Gliscor.

Once again, they can't switch in, and Mega Gengar is faster than Noivern, so unless you're running scarfed Noivern (LOL), then the only one that Speed ties is Crobat.

Yeah there are Pokemon that can do well against certain Mega Gengar sets, but wait, they can't switch in thanks to Shadow Tag, so it still accomplished its job before you can "counter it". As Rey said, counters do no exist since Shadow Tag prevents switching, which is the essence of a counter. There are only checks.
 
Mega Gengar should remain OU.

Shadow Tag cannot trap the abundant ghosts wandering in the metagame.

Common U-Turn, Volt Switch, Baton Pass, or even Shed Shell item avoids trapping.

Mega Gengar is frail. His longevity is limited to a single turn or two, susceptible to powerful priority like Bullet Punch, Sucker Punch, and even Shadow Sneak.

Destiny Bond sets, like any others, can be Taunted.

Because of his nonexistent bulk, Mega Gengar is so often simply walled and defeated even upon a successful trap - Pokemon like common Gliscor walls any set he might run, and can subsequently OHKO.

Mega Gengar loses the valuable Ground immunity. This forces Mega Gengar to switch more frequently, making Shadow Tagging less effective.

Mega Gengar running Substitute is still threatened by sound-based attacks or Infiltrators like Noivern.

With a vast array of checks and counters, Mega Gengar, while versatile and powerful, does not break the OU metagame, nor limit team-building or force players into 1 or 2 specific counters.
Please remember that, as pointed out [A, G64] times already in this thread, that not being long-lived doesn't matter for M-Gengar. He only needs those few turns to trap anything he needs to trap, guaranteed. There are many ways to get Gengar in safely, such as Volt-Turn or just Gengar's natural resistances. Note also that most priority cannot OHKO, not even CB-Scizor's Bullet Punch or M-Banette's Shadow Sneak, which should really make one nervous. Even if he gets walled or revenge-killed after he's killed something, he has still killed something and done what he needs for the day. And then it can use Destiny Bond off 130 base Speed to pick off yet another Pokemon, blowing a massive hole in the opposite team.

Speaking of which, I really cannot see how you can taunt something with 130 Speed, outside of using M-Aerodactyl or Deoxys-S (who by the way, get totally murdered if Gengar's behind a sub). Also note that Gengar himself has Taunt.
 
so for a perish song set you would run

Perish Song/Substitute/protect(?)/attacking move (?)



you switch in Gengar and they can either

-Switch out before you MEvo, Or Attack you

Or. Something on your team falls

you send out Gengar-> MEvo Protect (?) which can turn into them switching in something, or you avoiding an attack and they're now trapped.

Now with this knowledge you can either attack them (if you even run an offensive move), hope it KO's or, if you know it's not and you're in danger of taking a shit ton of damage switch out and then bring something in to take the hit and use Gengar for later.

Later comes and you see something you want to trap. Something falls and you send Gengar in to deal with it with Perish song.

Now you Perish song -> They can in turn leech seed your/WoW you, etc so forth.... then you go through the 1 Sub/1 Protect and take passive damage from any dot they've put on you. You now have a weakened Mega Gengar.

I don't get it, can someone explain, or possibly present a scenario explaining how Perish trapping can be broken? cause right now with the way I see it, you're better off just all out attacking
Turn 1: Gengar vs something it can threaten (like perhaps a damaged Skarmory) and the opponent doesn't know your moveset yet. Let's go with Skarmory.
Skarmory, come back!
Go! Blissey! (can tank FB or Thunderbolt)
Gengar is Mega Evolving!
Gengar evolved into Mega Gengar!
MGengar used Perish Song!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 3!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 3!

Turn 2:
MGengar used Protect!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
MGengar protected itself!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 2!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 2!

Turn 3:
MGengar used Substitute!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
MGengar's Substitute took the attack!
The substitute faded!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 1!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 1!

Turn 4:
MGengar! Come back!
Go! Heatran!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
Heatran's Flash Fire powered up its Fire moves!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 0!
Blissey Fainted!

And now MGengar can do this again on someone else as a revenger, and also take down another one guaranteed if it runs Destiny Bond instead of Shadow Ball.

Not exactly the most common scenario, but this is a possible example of how it'd look if MGengar ran Perish trap. Because of how versatile Gengar's moveset is, your opponent can guess wrong about the perishtrap set, expecting something else, and BAM now your wall is dead.
 
none of us for banning it are saying its unkillable. every pokemon is capable of being killed. also, none of us are saying that it has to be able to handle every threat out there simultaneously. what we are saying, and this seems to be missed, is that it is the most effective wall breaker out there. its sole purpose is to deal with those specific threats that would keep your sweepers from doing their job. at this, it excells better than any other wall breaker in the game right now. shadow tag ensures that the wall it switches in on is dead if said wall is not running one of a very limited move set.
 
Turn 1: Gengar vs something it can threaten (like perhaps a damaged Skarmory) and the opponent doesn't know your moveset yet. Let's go with Skarmory.
Skarmory, come back!
Go! Blissey! (can tank FB or Thunderbolt)
Gengar is Mega Evolving!
Gengar evolved into Mega Gengar!
MGengar used Perish Song!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 3!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 3!

Turn 2:
MGengar used Protect!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
MGengar protected itself!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 2!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 2!

Turn 3:
MGengar used Substitute!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
MGengar's Substitute took the attack!
The substitute faded!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 1!
MGengar's Perish count fell to 1!

Turn 4:
MGengar! Come back!
Go! Heatran!
Blissey used Fire Blast!
Heatran's Flash Fire powered up its Fire moves!
Blissey's Perish count fell to 0!
Blissey Fainted!

And now MGengar can do this again on someone else as a revenger, and also take down another one guaranteed if it runs Destiny Bond instead of Shadow Ball.

Not exactly the most common scenario, but this is a possible example of how it'd look if MGengar ran Perish trap. Because of how versatile Gengar's moveset is, your opponent can guess wrong about the perishtrap set, expecting something else, and BAM now your wall is dead.
Summary: a wall switches into a mega, expecting one set, gets it wrong, and dies as a result.

This is not an abnormal situation.
 
Summary: a wall switches into a mega, expecting one set, gets it wrong, and dies as a result.

This is not an abnormal situation.
And now MGengar can do it again, guaranteeing another KO, since it has safely MEvo'd without any damage (besides Substitute).

At the worst, it will guarantee another KO with Destiny Bond. And there's nothing the other player can do about it.
 

ginganinja

It's all coming back to me now
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O.k, as a moderator, I have had to delete a little too many posts, many of which are done by the anti ban side of things. So, im going to link this post in the OP of the thread, and try and bookmark some of the posts that really are outstanding. I ask that if you want to post, you at least read some of those, since they are some of the strongest posts for and against the banning of Mega Gengar, and thus should assist you in crafting your post.

Firstly, if you want to argue against the banning of Mega Gengar (or support it), then promote / develop on this post. Seriously, its the best anti ban post I have read, and I encourage everyone to read it, its the example that I, and other OU mods, want to see.

If you want to argue against or support the pro ban arguments, then feel free to read posts by reyscarface (1, 2, 3), gr8astard (1) , Innocent Criminal (1, 2), Fuzznip (1), Nachos (1) Colonel M (1) and Fireburn (1) (I'm sorry if I missed someone, there are actually a lot of solid posters). Yes, the pro ban side has remarkably better posts, so ideally if you really want to convince the council to keep Gengar in OU or not to quick ban it, id start looking at these gentlemen, how they argue, what they argue about, and apply that to your own posts. You don't have to share their views, but if you want to argue with them I would suggest discussing / debating the points made within these posts.

That said, there are some pretty terrible arguments being repeated over and over again, and im tired of deleting them, so im going to go through the most common ones quickly.

1. Mega Gengar is countered by X, Y and Z: This is not true, period. Don't argue this, don't mention it, don't discuss it. I don't want to see this crop up anywhere because its flat out not true. If you want to debate this then do it somewhere else, because by definition of Shadow Tag, you cannot, under any circumstances, counter Mega Gengar, its just not possible since you cannot switch in on it. I don't buy the U-Turn argument either, because Mega Gengar isn't going to switch in on something that can and will U-Turn in on it, its just dumb. Sure, Volt Turn users limit what Gengar can trap, so ill grant you that argument (even tho I think running a whole lot of Volt Turn / Shed Shell users proves a certain point about over centralisation) but they still do NOT counter Mega Gengar, seriously, don't even try to argue this, ill just shut it down.

2. Mega Gengar is frail, loses to Priority and Scarfers: Mega Gengar is frail, this is a fact. Sure, its not as frail as people make out, but its still frail. Despite this, "being frail" is still no reason for something to be kept out of Ubers. Nor is being weak to certain forms of priority enough, on its own, to support Gengar staying in OU. The Deoxys-A + N formes are some of the most frailest mons in Ubers, both of them lose to Priority, and, as already stated, both are uber. Being OHKOed by CB Scizor after SR (or whatever the amount of residual damage required is) isn't an end all argument for keeping Mega Gengar OU, so don't treat it as such. I recently read a post claiming that Mega Gengar should stay OU because it lost to Talonflame and CB Azumarill as his main argument, but then went on to cite a Blaziken quickban was ok despite being weak to both those same pokemon. Bottom line, don't use being weak to priority as the basis for your entire argument, it just doesn't fly.

Furthermore, don't claim scarfers are the end all solution to Mega Gengar, because it can and will switch out, I don't care if your last 5 ladder players all kept their Mega Gengar in on your obviously Scarfed Garchomp, a quality opponent will not sacrifice Mega Gengar unless it has outlived its purpose (or if he has nothing better to take a hit / didn't realise your mon was scarfed). That said, there is nothing at all wrong with you citing priority and Scarfers as a means to deal with Gengar, I agree that they are checks upon the power of Mega Gengar. That said, I do not and will never accept posters from JoeBlog69 that argue "I OHKO Mega Gengar with my CB Scizor so I voted no its not broken" (yes, those posts do exist) because these are utterly terrible arguments. Also, as stated above, don't call scarfers or priority counters to Mega Gengar, because they are not, so ffs stop bringing them up.

3. Mega X (Kanga being the common one) is stronger than Mega Gengar so I voted to keep it in OU: Not relevant, so don't discuss it. I don't want to see these "can we discuss Kanga yet?" posts because they are not relevant. Don't bring them up, ill just infract you from now on. The council will discuss Kanga when they are ready.

4. Don't discuss how the Council Tiers their shit. Even after Haunter's explicit warning, people are still doing this. Please don't do this, nothing will come from it, and you are derailing the thread from its intended purpose ie discussing Mega Gengar.

5. Gengar will always be switching in! I can KO it before it traps me!: I see this argument far too often, and its very frustrating. It suggests, that the Mega Gengar user is so intelligent that he (or she), will switch Gengar INTO an attack that will OHKO it, which doesn't really work out. By all means argue that Gengar has trouble switching in, but I don't want to see posts saying "Gliscor always wins against Gengar, because ill OHKO it with Earthquake when it switches in" because in practise, that won't work. In an actual game, you are forced to spam Earthquake with Gliscor if you are forced in to counter whatever it is your countering, on the off chance that Gengar comes in. You can double switch out of course, after taking the initial hit from the mon your countering, but as Rey points out, you are still stuck trying to counter the mon you need to counter (say, using Gliscor to stop a Dragonite), without being trapped by Mega Gengar. For a better justification as to why this argument needs a bit more discussion, check out reys post on it, quote it, and debate it as well as you can, I won't accept "Gliscor OHKOs with Earthquake" posts tho unless you can back it up with solid justification. Likewise Quickban supporters need to effectively prove Gengar can trap these pokemon as consistently as it needs to under the support uber characteristic in Haunters post.

6. In general, factor Stealth Rock in for both sides. Im seeing people assuming that Stealth Rock will always be on your side of the argument, some people claiming Gengar will get OHKOed after SR by certain priority attacks, and then forgoing SR when posting calculations in arguing against what Gengar can or cannot trap. Likewise please think before posting. I don't really want to see posts claiming that Gengar did a terrible job trapping Skarmory since Thunderbolt only took it down to Sturdy.... we all know a 6% Skarmory is no longer doing a viable job at checking the physical sweeper it needs to check, and that Gengar effectively did its job.

I will quite possibly be adding to this post, turning it into a reference for the good posts on either side of the argument, as well as updating it with stuff that shouldn't be discussed. I shouldn't have to do this, but I hate even more to delete a shitload of posts so hopefully this should serve as a reference point for people that don't want to muddle through 20+ pages. Thats all from me

Carry on.

EDIT

Recent posts have required me to update this with new arguments. Re-read if you missed it.
 
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The thing I hate about Mega Gengar, and why I think it should leave OU is the fact that you get a guaranteed KO on something. It's a revenger killer, a heavy-hitter, and a wallbreaker all in one. It also gets destiny bond, which is another potential KO for little to no effort. Let's look at some of the pokemon that we have used in the past for their "no retreat" abilities.

Wobbuffet: Lacked any attacking move, relied on opponent not KO'ing it in one hit, and lacked the speed.
Magnezone: Terrible speed, X4 weakness to ground, and could only trap steel types
Dugtrio: Had no bulk, weak physical stat, and couldn't trap levitate pokemon and flyers.
Gothitelle: Awful speed, average bulk, small movepool, and lacked any real power unless Specs'd.

Now, look at Gengar, who has an incredible movepool, a great typing, decent bulk, insane sp.atk, along with crazy speed. Wasn't Landorus banned last gen because of how strong a pursuit trapper and a really powerful pokemon could be? I think people are looking at Gengar the wrong way. It's not the most powerful thing in OU, sure, but it traps EVERYTHING (excluding ghosts, but aegislash is the only notable one) for little to no effort. Are we really going to have to start putting shed shells on everything in order to get around one pokemon?

Gengar combined with something like Kyurem-B, who has a small list of counters already, and you've got a crazy combination.
 
if you took hidden power ice you wouldn't speed tie with crobat, and then you would lack shadow ball damage
Crobat has zero reason to run max speed. Really, it only needs enough speed to outrun Greninja, as there isn't anything notable faster than Greninja that Crobat can beat.

Back on topic, I keep seeing people repeat how Mega Gengar is so frail, how it gets pursuit trapped, or how it can't OHKO everything in existence. Okay. So what? These were all problems regular Gengar already had, and Gengar was OU for 5 generations. People already know how to play around these things. In fact, Shadow Tag and higher speed make it easier to play around these things. I mean, what, do players instantly become blind, deaf, and dumb the moment they hit the mega-evolution button?
 
at this point it seems like both sides have made their points. the poll seems to lean towards not banning it. Reading the thread, however, paints a very different picture, as the majority of the posts explain exactly why it is so powerful, while the main anti-ban posts cover the same 4 or 5 points, ones that have already been discussed and determined irrelevant, over and over again. add in the fact that a fair number of people have stated that they voted no just so that it gets tested, and you can see which way this is going. Both sides have made their cases, both sides have been disputed, and at this point, we have said it all. I say we now let the council decide, as i dont think that there is anything else that can be added to this discussion.
 
I think it'd help if more people, you know, went and used Mega Gengar for a bit? Get a real feel for how he works, make a few teams with him, get high on the ladder and stay there, that sort of thing. People are saying that they haven't seen good Mega Gengar out there (myself included,) so let's change that and see what that does for public opinion?

I'm trying a team with him right now, but my battles are either lagging out to hell and back or against such wondrous threats as Kings Rock Snore Snorlax and his friend Oran Berry Braviary. Once I get higher on the ladder I'll see if that affects my views.
 

tab

Tournament Banned
So a lot of this is pretty terrible. Something that people need to realise is that "broken" isn't something objective (otherwise we wouldn't have tests, right?) and that posting calcs doesn't show that something is/isn't broken. Let's start from the basics: what does broken mean? We don't know. So right off the bat, anything that claims to prove something is broken isn't really very worthwhile.

Instead of throwing around buzzwords like "broken", "check" and "counter", let's review what the point of Smogon is: we want to make a competitive game out of Pokemon. What does competitive mean? Your guess is as good as mine, but we've at least got a good starting block: the best player wins the vast majority of the time. People constantly throw about arguments about counters but honestly, it's no longer relevant - when was the last time someone actually good at BW2 (or even DPP if we're being honest) used a team that countered everything?

So this raises an important question: how do we decide what we ban and what we don't? I'd say broken pokemon are like pornography - you don't know how to define it, but you definitely know it when you see it. In a somewhat roundabout way, this brings me right on to Mega Gengar. The problem we're seeing here is that everyone's operating under their own definition of "broken" - that's obviously not useful. So let's suppose that we relax the criteria for banning a bit - let's assume that we ban something when it "leads to a shit metagame". That's still massively subjective, but if most of the people that play something think it's shit, then it's probably shit.

If we're happy that we want to avoid a shit metagame, then yes, I think we should ban Mega Gengar - this thread's full of reasons to ban it. If we want to pedantically continue to try and make a "maximally balanced" (because I honestly don't even know how we'd define that - a metagame that doesn't suck complete dick but still uses lots of pokemon?) then I think Mega Gengar is fine.

How does this relate to the thread at hand? The council are formed from some of the best users Smogon has had over the last few years. They've watched a lot of porn. If they think something is porn, it probably is porn.
 
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Jukain

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The first thing I want to say is that I don't think reyscarface's list is entirely accurate. The first thing I wanna say is, any number is just based off potential sets. When you stick to one set, Gengar's overall lethalness
Also, usage statistics aren't helping the argument. Statements such as
scarf seen in 20% of delphox so chances of beating mega gengar are under 15%~
have NO bearing on how effective Mega Gengar is against these Pokemon. The fact is that if you want to successfully beat Mega Gengar, you WILL run a set such as this. Also, you can always run Substitute, j/s.
greninja and talonflame said:
- greninja: ohko by focus blast / thunderbolt Keep in mind that the thing can switch types with its attacks...Mega Gengar isn't guaranteed to have a KO by any stretch of the imagination. Gengar is also getting OHKOed as it comes in, have fun with that.
- talonflame: ive seen people say talonflame counters mega gengar which is funny, considering that cb talonflame has to be locked on brave bird in order to be able to win vs 0/0 mega gengar. if its sharp beak talonflame, it will never ohko 60 hp gengar, while gengar ohkos back with shadow ball + recoil or thunderbolt. also cb talonflame cant ohko max hp, some def mega gengar. sooo yea. Talonflame might not be KOing necessarily, but after SR it sure as fuck is, or really any prior damage. Mega Gengar is bound to have prior damage, as it must MEvo to be of any use (I'll get back to this point later).
Continuing on the list: Aromatisse and Pyroar are not OU-quality Pokemon.
tyrantrum and sylveon said:
- tyrantrum: ohko by focus blast, can win with scarf AND jolly max speed, but only 15% of tyrantrums are scarved and only 15%~ have jolly as their nature. This is a pretty flimsy argument, as Choice Scarf is Tyrantrum's best set or one of them. A good player using Tyrantrum would be likely to use a Choice Scarf, and if part of our assumption about Mega Gengar is that it's in the hands of a good player than we can only reasonably assume this for Tyrantrum.
- sylveon: ohkod by sludge bomb if 0/0, if not, cant do anything to gengar I sincerely doubt its Fairy attacks do nothing to Gengar. Also, it has Wish + Protect, so it can keep itself alive. 0/0 Sylveon is non-existent.
azumarill and blissey said:
- azumarill: sludge bomb If, idk, Mega Gengar has to switch in, it's 2HKOed by Aqua Jet and OHKOed by Waterfall.
gastrodon and jirachi said:
- gastrodon: perish song set takes care of it No, Earthquake murders it.
- jirachi: traps and ohkos 252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD+ Jirachi (56.9 - 67.3%). A 2HKO. Oh, and Scarf generally wins.
keldeo and kyurem-b said:
- keldeo: tbolt and cant ohko unless life orb Thunderbolt is not an OHKO -- even after Stealth Rock if you put a measly 20 extra EVs in Special Defense. Meanwhile...Life Orb and Specs wreck Mega Gengar. Scarf 2HKOes, which is fine since Thunderbolt doesn't OHKO.
- kyurem-b: focus blast Not any Kyurem-B with 88 HP EVs (which is minimal for non-Scarf) or that runs a Choice Scarf
reuniclus and skarmory said:
- reuniclus: ohkod Reuniclus running at least 252/24 investment isn't OHKOed.
- skarmory: tbolt Physically defensive Skarmory, sure, but specially defensive Skarmory can take the Thunderbolt in relative stride and phaze it out. If it lacks Thunderbolt, SDef can't be 2HKOed. Physically defensive isn't OHKOed by anything besides Thunderbolt (oh, and Sturdy).
tentacruel and thundurus said:
- tentacruel: tbolt If you take into account Rain Dish (not entirely unlikely to be up thanks to Damp Rock Politoed), Thunderbolt doesn't even 2HKO. None of its other moves 2HKO, and this is assuming max HP. If you run a specially defensive variant, Tentacruel laughs in the face of Gengar.
- thundurus: only wins if it has LO, otherwise 2hkod / ohkod with SR What Thundurus lacks Life Orb... Also, priority Thunder Wave (TWave + 3 attacks is Thundurus's best set) cripples it and then Thundurus can kill it.
excadrill and vaporeon said:
- excadrill: ohkod by focus blast 252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 128 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Excadrill: 222-262 (56.4 - 66.6%). Assault Vest is among Excadrill's best sets. If it's not all that common, then it's just under-utilized; I'm definitely not the only one who likes it.
- vaporeon: cant do shit 0 SpA Scald does 35.8% - 42.3%. I don't think of that as 'cant do shit'. Nothing besides Thunderbolt is a 2HKO, and it has Wish + Protect, as well as access to Roar.'
mega charizard x and mega charizard y said:
- mega charizard x: ohkod by tbolt The Pokemon has Dragon / Fire typing. Oh, and nothing Gengar has comes even close to OHKOing while it gets OHKOed in return. Or, more specifically, it sets up a Dragon Dance, kills Gengar, and proceeds to sweep its team.
- mega charizard y: same Thunderbolt does 72 - 84.8% to 0/4 variants (that's minimal investment). It has Drought-boosted Fire STABs to murder Mega Gengar with.
mega blastoise and mega kangaskhan said:
- mega blastoise: you too Thunderbolt does 59.1 - 69.6% to the standard max HP. Dark Pulse does an average of 80%, which is enough to KO with a little bit of prior damage.
- mega kangaskhan: focus blast If we assume the standard 0/0, Focus Blast isn't even a guaranteed OHKO. In fact, it only has an ~50% chance to do so. Also, it gets murdered by Sucker Punch. Or Earthquake. Or Crunch.
mega gyarados said:
- mega gyarados Focus Blast doesn't OHKO if it's 0/0. If it's 248/8 (defensive Mega), it averages out to 70%.
So, if we take all these Pokemon, and subtract them from the total (that would be 22), and subtract Pyroar and Aromatisse from the total, you get 45/97 Pokemon it can trap and kill under favorable conditions. This is assuming Mega Gengar doesn't come in on a wrong prediction. Oh yeah, it has to switch in. Unless you're running a U-turn/Volt Switch pivot (in which case you're probably not gonna get to target the Pokemon you want anyways), you're relying on 50/50 plays to get Gengar, as the opponent can just switch out predicting Mega Gengar or can stay in predicting you to take advantage of that mindset, whatever, it's a 50/50.

Many of these Pokemon you mention are also offensive, and have little relevance in regards to whether they actually fully handle a Pokemon or inhibit its sweep.

Alright, now let's get back to the whole 'it has to switch in to trap' thing. Yeah. You can't just bring out Mega Gengar cold and have it trap. Therefore, as it Mega Evolves it can be taken advantage of via switching, or at least the very least you can deal good damage to it. If it runs Substitute or Protect, that's one less attacking move you have to worry about.

I'm just gonna continue on addressing the most major posts.
Innocent Criminal said:
Reyscarface's list isn't even accurate, it's much worse than that because he forgot HP Ice, which is a fantastic option. Of course Gengar can't run every move, but when your Shadow Ball is pretty much only resisted by TTar, it's easy to make a moveset that can snipe every single Pokémon that gives you trouble.

Is your team based around a Lucario sweep? Run Sub, Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt and HP Ice, and suddenly Gengar can trap and OHKO Skarmory, Gyarados, Gliscor, Landorus, Slowbro, Celebi, Dragonite, etc... Nearly every Lucario counter and check, just to give one example. Substitute guarantees you a free Mega Evolution even if your opponent has a Tyranitar (and after your job is done, a TTar revenge is a free set-up for Lucario).
SD Talonflame? That's something easy to check that every teams has a hard counter for, right? Well look, TTar, Heatran, Rotom, Gliscor, Jellicent, Dragonite and Slowbro all die to Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/HP Ice, and that's just three moves!

Properly using Mega Gengar is like a DragMag strategy that lets you selectively remove pretty much whatever you want and there's nothing your opponent can do to stop it.
Just gonna start with some nitpicking: Jellicent can switch out of Mega Gengar, and Dragonite sure as fuck isn't getting OHKOed by HP Ice (espec. with Multiscale). Rotom-W uses Volt Switch and gets out.

Okay, and to address the key point of your post now... It is true that Mega Gengar can selectively remove whatever you want. The thing is that it's not unlike Gothitelle in that aspect. Gothitelle could selectively remove pretty much every Pokemon you just mentioned, and plenty more -- just like Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar is differentiated by better power, typing, Speed, and bulk, but in overall potency in this aspect, I would say it isn't that much different from Gothitelle.

Don't read too much into that. It's just a simple comparison. Mega Gengar can be tailored to remove a subset of Pokemon, but the fact that it's often shaky in whether or not it can actually defeat that Pokemon due to having to get a free switch-in, lest it die, means it just can't always do these things -- even if you suppose it runs the perfect moveset for each time, which is just not the case. Mega Gengar is not the end-all be-all killer of the things that can handle your Pokemon, no matter how you spin it. If it uses Destiny Bond, the opponent still has their Choice Scarfer, priority user, etc. If it runs Perish Song, then it can't even always survive the time it needs in order to stall out the opposing Pokemon.

Fuzznip said:
1. Shadow Tag enables it to target almost any Pokemon it wants to and essentially eliminate it from the game.

This is the biggest advantage Gengar has over basically any other Pokemon. It can select almost any Pokemon at any period of time during the match and, given the opponent is weakened enough (this isn't difficult with entry hazards and the like), you basically get a free kill. This means that it can dispose of troublesome walls, such as Skarmory and Togekiss, for your sweepers to wreak havoc. It's not even just walls, either. See that weakened Tyranitar? See that Excadrill? That Starmie, Breloom, Garchomp, Greninja? They're gone. And it's that easy. The fact that Gengar can do that to a very decent effect is worrisome.

This means of support is invaluable to the many sweepers that are hard-walled by threats, too. Even if you're not using it for that support, just the fact that it can slowly but surely pick off Pokemon by Pokemon with that Shadow Tag and amazing Special Attack and Speed is superb. Speaking of which:
Shadow Tag doesn't enable it to target anything it wants. It still has to get in for free. Killing weakened stuff isn't that worrying to me, as it isn't being a great check to anything in that state anyways. If it would be a threat, it can probably murder Mega Gengar.
2. Base 170 Special Attack and base 130 Speed is phenomenal for a revenge killing trapper.

Even though it's slightly weaker than its Life Orb Gengar counterpart, the huge increase in Speed quite literally makes it the be-all-end-all of revenge killers. The threats that used to outpace it, such as Starmie, Greninja, Weavile, Alakazam, and Thundururs, are now outsped and all of them are roasted by its STAB attacks bar Focus Sash Alakazam. That base 170 Special Attack is nothing to scoff at either. Basically all of OU is either 2HKOed or OHKOed bar the specially defensive behemoths, most notably Chansey and Blissey. But wait, is Gengar actually "walled" by anything? It pretty much isn't because:
Base 170 Special Attack isn't especially scary when unboosted by any item, or even like a Modest nature. The calcs can be scary, but not even all the Pokemon you mentioned necessarily lose. Thundurus isn't OHKOed by anything, KOes easily with Life Orb-boosted attacks, and can Thunder Wave paralyze it to render it useless. Base 130 Speed is great, and one of Mega Gengar's best assets, but I don't think it's anything game-breaking.
3. Destiny Bond and Taunt provide answers against many of Mega Gengar's checks and counters.

Destiny Bond/Taunt + 3 attacks is the Gengar set of choice currently. Each move allows it to accomplish various things. With Destiny Bond, no longer can it be revenge killed by Sucker Punch users, particularly Kangaskhan. They will be taken down with it the next turn if Gengar chooses to attack. Destiny Bond almost ensures Gengar gets at the bare minimum a total of 2 kills. It's first kill is from revenge killing something that is helplessly trapped, and kill two comes from Destiny Bonding the switch-in if it chooses to do so. Of course you can switch Gengar out, pick off something else later, and Destiny Bond then for 3, 4, or 5 kills. Who knows? In terms of Taunt, it turns Gengar to the epitome of stallbreaker. Not only can it obliterate physical walls such as Skarmory, opening up sweeps for your physical sweepers, it now has the ability to blow up Blissey, Chansey, and Togekiss, among other special walls, with Taunt. Now they can't paralyze you, Wish + Protect stall, or just heal up with Soft-Boiled or Roost. They have no choice but to succumb to Gengar's attacks which hits all of them super effectively. Defensive and stall teams are crapped on. Offensive teams are still crapped on. All team styles are crapped on.
Offensive teams are not crapped on. They have the tools to wreck Mega Gengar, such as Scarfers and priority users as well as any of a number of other offensive checks. And, it's even harder for Mega Gengar to get in on offensive teams -- pivots, even, can succumb to the powerful attacks being thrown out.
4. Great number of switch-in opportunities.

Yes, Gengar is frail. Yes, Gengar loses an immunity to Ground. But that doesn't mean it can't switch in. It's actually really easy to bring Gengar unscathed. U-turn and Volt Switch cores are riddled in the metagame, being effectively used by Pokemon such as Talonflame, Rotom-W, Scizor, and Greninja. All of these Pokemon force switches like mad, meaning Gengar can often come in without taking any damage if the opponent switches in something it can take out, which can very well be the case. Talonflame lures in Tyranitar, Focus Blast that to death. Scizor lures in Gliscor, Shadow Ball that to death. It doesn't stop there. There's also "double switching" which is what also makes Gengar that much scarier. If your opponent predicts you to switch to something, in comes the switch to Gengar. Finally, Ghost/Poison is not a bad typing. Immunities to Normal and Fighting, which are pretty common actually, is great.
Those lures? Those are 50/50s, which can go either way. Either they stay in and possibly maintain the momentum or switch out. The risk is roughly equivalent on both ends. Also, most offensive Pokemon destroy it with their attacks. And U-turn/Volt Switch users can be preyed upon. Rotom-W doesn't force an insane amount of switches. I wouldn't say Greninja does either, or even really Scizor. Talonflame revenge kills stuff, and is only truly scary to fight if it has an SD under its belt...

I'm not going to address everything all at once. So, these are my points. Feel free to refute.
 
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Shadow Tag doesn't enable it to target anything it wants. It still has to get in for free. Killing weakened stuff isn't that worrying to me, as it isn't being a great check to anything in that state anyways. If it would be a threat, it can probably murder Mega Gengar.
Firstly, I did not explicitly mention that Shadow Tag enables it to target any Pokemon it wants, because that is clearly untrue with Ghost-types, other Shadow Tag users having the ability to escape, and of course VoltTurners. Next, it's not difficult to bring in Gengar for free. It initially has 3 immunities and a fine number of resistances, so predicting a nonthreatening attack and bringing Gengar in at that point is doable. Furthermore, it's very easy to take advantage of the VoltTurn strategy and bring Gengar in unscathed. Finally, double switching is not difficult to do so either, since you can force out a Pokemon of your opponent's using one of your own, and double to Gengar for free.

Honestly, I have no idea why you even said this: "Killing weakened stuff isn't that worrying to me, as it isn't being a great check to anything in that state anyways."

I don't know why you think that weakened Pokemon are now apparently useless pieces of shit that have no merit to being used any longer. Not only do you lose potential death fodders, which is a vital aspect of competitive Pokemon, you are also willingly saccing your team for no apparent reason. A Choice Band Scizor at 20% HP can potentially stop an opposing sweep, or even win you the game with Bullet Punch if the circumstances are in place. Thundurus at 1% HP can even be a critical member to finishing off your opponent. You can't just say that MGengar killing your weakened stuff isn't worrying you, because it should be. You're losing Pokemon. You're losing your pieces. You're losing out on plays that you would've been able to make. Without those members on your team, how do you think you have a fighting chance at winning the game?

Base 170 Special Attack isn't especially scary when unboosted by any item, or even like a Modest nature. The calcs can be scary, but not even all the Pokemon you mentioned necessarily lose. Thundurus isn't OHKOed by anything, KOes easily with Life Orb-boosted attacks, and can Thunder Wave paralyze it to render it useless. Base 130 Speed is great, and one of Mega Gengar's best assets, but I don't think it's anything game-breaking.
I find it absurd that you think base 170 Special Attack isn't scary. That is an outrageously high offensive stat that any Pokemon would die for. Sure, MGengar is not as strong as its Life Orb Gengar counterpart, but 1) you are not taking recoil damage, 2) you now have Shadow Tag, 3) you still have so many attacking options that allow you to construct a moveset that your team benefits most from, and 4) you now have base 130 Speed. You're seriously underestimating what this means. You are now guaranteed to trap and kill the following Pokemon that you were NOT able to do so prior:

Alakazam (hangs on Sash)
Dugtrio (could hang on Sash)
Starmie
Espeon
Gengar
Latias
Latios
Greninja
Noivern
Talonflame (locked into Flare Blitz)

That Speed also means you can outpace +1 neutral base 80's. Oh, and for the record:

252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 229-270 (76.5 - 90.3%)

MGengar OHKOes with SR.

Offensive teams are not crapped on. They have the tools to wreck Mega Gengar, such as Scarfers and priority users as well as any of a number of other offensive checks. And, it's even harder for Mega Gengar to get in on offensive teams -- pivots, even, can succumb to the powerful attacks being thrown out. Oh, and Blissey/Chansey 3HKO with Seismic Toss. I don't think Mega Gengar is winning that fight...
Offensive teams are definitely still crapped on. Look at a list of offensive Pokemon and consider what MGengar can do to all of them. You can't tell me that offensive teams are not susceptible to MGengar's trap + attack or trap + Destiny Bond. Of course the opposition have VoltTurners, Scarfers, and priority users; however, what you need to understand is that Mega Gengar will not blindly allow the opponent to revenge kill it as such. Only an idiot will leave Gengar in against a Scarfer or priority user. It is also extremely evident when Gengar will be faced with a Scarfer when you switch it in, since there's nothing relevant that reaches 130 base Speed. It will simply switch out and pick on something later.

I don't even get what you're saying with Blissey/Chansey 3HKOing with Seismic Toss. It's immune to it, lol. And both of them lose to Taunt + Focus Blast if you want Gengar to be able to defeat them. It's just that customizable.

Those lures? Those are 50/50s, which can go either way. Either they stay in and possibly maintain the momentum or switch out. The risk is roughly equivalent on both ends. Also, most offensive Pokemon destroy it with their attacks. And U-turn/Volt Switch users can be preyed upon. Rotom-W doesn't force an insane amount of switches. I wouldn't say Greninja does either, or even really Scizor. Talonflame revenge kills stuff, and is only truly scary to fight if it has an SD under its belt...
Using U-turn or Volt Switch isn't really a 50/50. Typically you use your VoltTurner against something that will take good damage from their respective scout move OR take super effective damage from on of their coverage attacks. For example, if you have Choice Band Scizor against Togekiss, you have two options: Bullet Punch or U-turn. Your opponent has two options: stay in or switch out. If you Bullet Punch, you either OHKO Togekiss or you hit the switch-in ready to tank it. That's fine. If you U-turn, you won't do much to Togekiss if it stays in, but you can still bring in something that deals with it. If the opponent switches, then you bring in Gengar for free. Using U-turn or Volt Switch is basically a win-win scenario in the grand scheme of things. Sometimes it could not go in your favour, but you still have 4 other teammates to retaliate back against the VoltTurned target that stayed in. In essence, the VoltTurner almost always has the upperhand.

Yes, most offensive Pokemon do destroy Gengar, but that's if you ignorantly switch it into attacks. That's not the way MGengar works and people need to realize this. You bring it in in other ways, not by brute switching. And I'm cringing at the fact that you think Rotom-W, Scizor, Greninja, and Talonflame don't force many switches. Rotom-W hard walls a number of threats and is a nuisance to physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp. Scizor has priority Bullet Punch that hits like a truck and picks off tons of Pokemon and hits Fairy-types super effectively. Greninja has a moveset that gets all STAB and has great coverage attacks to hit many Pokemon super effectively. Talonflame forces switches so easily with that priority Brave Bird, are you kidding me? Unless you have balls of absolute steel and are willing to risk staying in, you're totally switching out of those guys to keep your Pokemon as healthy as possible.

Sorry Jukain, I think your points seem to carry some flawed logic. I feel like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel in search of answers to keep MGengar OU. Truth is, it's not.
 

gr8astard

Here comes the waterworks!
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Honestly, I have no idea why you even said this: "Killing weakened stuff isn't that worrying to me, as it isn't being a great check to anything in that state anyways."
Yeah I'm really not sure why you think killing weakened stuff is not a big deal. For instance, a 60-70% Rotom-W is still a perfectly viable Talonflame check, but yet:
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%)
How is that not a big deal? MGengar has 170 SpA so when we say weakened we don't necessarily mean things at 30% who is only good as a death-fodder to begin with.

Also Jukain, I find some of your counterarguments to the things MGengar can kill pretty silly. Why does it matter if Greninja can change typing if MGengar outspeeds it? In what universe does a Gengar switch into an Azumarill's attacking move? Also, Shadow Ball does 43% min to a max/max Skarmory and really all you can do is phaze it out, attack it and get recoil which brings you to 2hko range, or roost stall and wait for the inevitable SpDef drop assuming MGengar doesn't carry tbolt. A lot of the Mega mons you listed are fat so I'd agree with you on those, except for the fact that the only reason MGengar comes in voluntarily on these Pokemon (as is the case for the Rotom-W example I presented above) is if they're already in range for it to finish off. Oh and just for the sake of repeating myself over and over again, the opposite--your mega mon coming in on Gengar--will only occur if Gengar already killed something because you can't switch!
 
- sylveon: ohkod by sludge bomb if 0/0, if not, cant do anything to gengar I sincerely doubt its Fairy attacks do nothing to Gengar. Also, it has Wish + Protect, so it can keep itself alive. 0/0 Sylveon is non-existent.
252+ SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 252-296 (63.9 - 75.1%)
0 SpA Sylveon Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 58-69 (22.2 - 26.4%)
You need more than doubts on this battlefield.
- blissey: loses to perish trap Yes, but then you can't much of this list. Also, unless you're running a significant amount of HP (and you have to be running max Speed, so that means less Special Attack), Seismic Toss is easily 3HKOing.
MegaGar is immune to Toss.
- tentacruel: tbolt If you take into account Rain Dish (not entirely unlikely to be up thanks to Damp Rock Politoed), Thunderbolt doesn't even 2HKO. None of its other moves 2HKO, and this is assuming max HP. If you run a specially defensive variant, Tentacruel laughs in the face of Gengar.
Having actually used a 252/252+ Cruel (not RD, though) against a MegaGar, I can say that MegaGar wins. A 3HKO against a 252/252+ special wall with no investment is a pretty good achievement in and of itself. Again, the best chance for Cruel is if it gets lucky and burns with Scald, but it still can't get the KO in time. Ultimately, it's definitely an interesting match-up since it can cripple MegaGar before it goes down, although MegaGar still spinblocks and, if MEvo'd before coming in, absorbs TSpikes. But I digress.
- mega kangaskhan: focus blast If we assume the standard 0/0, Focus Blast isn't even a guaranteed OHKO. In fact, it only has an ~50% chance to do so. Also, it gets murdered by Sucker Punch. Or Earthquake. Or Crunch.
252+ SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 350-414 (99.7 - 117.9%)
You'd be extremely unlucky to NOT OHKO (and you would also have to not have SR or Spikes up), and even so, it would leave Kanga with a single hit point. You can Protect on the Mega to scout if it's gonna Sucker you or not: if it does, set up a Sub and then OHKO it, if it doesn't, OHKO it.

That's all I can think of off of the top of my head, but I've just added three potent special walls and the other Mega that people think is overpowered back to the hit list.
 
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Since apparently, we have yet to realize that talking about counters is not only a waste of time but irrelevant to the discussion of banning gengarite, let's discuss this briefly.

First, there ARE for sure pokemons that can kill him. But just because they can doesn't mean they will. Why? Because mega gengar has the ability, unlike his opponents, to switch out. This means, of course as I have stated, his only death for sure (barring him being the last pokemon) is pursuit.

Secondly, why does mega gengar want to deal with the limited pool of pokemon that can deal with him? Why does HE need to do so? Assuming he is used in such a way that he is being tested four (Uber support), there are four other slots to deal with an issue to your other pokemon's sweep.

Now, let's define the issue with uber support in OU: They make it really easy for SOMETHING ELSE to sweep. How do they do this? Well, be it hazards, infinite phazing, clearing threats or being able to somehow tank about every shot and disable by Twave/burns, these pokemon are just too much for the majority of the tier. These pokemon are very rare in ubers, to the point that I can think of one really fantastic example, and that's Lugia. Now, let's talk about what makes Lugia uber.

Lugia has checks/counters and definite weaknesses. It doesn't have high attack stats (90, which as a support poke attack/SpA stat is actually fairly average for OU) and it doesn't get rocks/hazards. With the addition of carbrink, shield form aegislash, and shuckle, Lugia isn't even alone in the holding of really massive defenses and special defenses. It does, however, have insane defenses, reliable recovery, and dragon tail. This, coupled with statuses, has made lugia a support pokemon in phazing pokemon over hazards. It has a great ability, multiscale, that has also allowed lugia to thrive in the uber environment. It will not outright kill a pokemon, but it can toxic wall or wear down a team by phazing them. This amount of defensive stats and the ability to move enemies over hazards weakens the team so much that other pokemon can sweep with relative ease.

So if lugia's sole job is to just phaze opponents, or even toxic stall them, why not just counter with something like darkrai (not an ubers player, can't guarantee that darkrai is even decent against lugia) to stop lugia? Well, I'm sure the team can and will bring in counters, but what is to stop the fleeting few that can do massive damage from lugia to not be taken out by something else? In OU even, couldn't tyranitar stop lugia? Scizor? That psychic flying typing does bring many weaknesses. Well, there is nothing stopping you from throwing infernape on to check ttar/scizor. Same applies here, why does mega gengar have to counter/kill everything including things that could stop him to be uber support?

Mega gengar presents himself in a little different fashion than lugia.

Lugia is meant to take basically anything on, phaze it and then continue going while the opponent is gradually worn down. Counters can hit it and hurt it badly, but lugia does enjoy recovery if the phaze comes into something that doesn't hurt it. And this is only if lugia stays in, an option for any pokemon not influenced by shadow tag.

Mega gengar is more of a designed counter, taking on specific threats by secluding what he wants to take out. The issue isn't really getting him in, essentially the pokemon he is aiming to take out cannot make a kill while mega gengar is around. And this is if it can harm mega gengar, which for now we are deeming irrelevant because who knows what you'd shape mega gengar to target in the first place. The option is completely up to the user. Once these threats are gone, mega gengar is free to suicide, or leave the field, whatsoever is neccessary, but the opponents team is now unfairly weakened. The counter they had can just easily be taken away once mega gengar is evolved. Who knows, maybe the gengar user attempts lures to bait in switches and double switch a trap. As to not get over analytical of hypothetical situations, I'm avoiding that discussion area altogether.

But, the question is then, can mega gengar clear specific pokemon with a high success rate (A rate that we consider high being relative unless perfect) that would hinder a sweep. The answer is, given most pokemon, absolutely yes. Mega gengar offers you a great way to clear walls to a sweeper of your choice and allows you to prepare your set according to whatever weakness that sweeper has.

What if the target pokemon walling the sweeper is strong against mega gengar, even possibly a counter? Then the obvious answer is the player probably isn't using mega gengar. They invest in another mega and we aren't having this discussion about those counters.

But this probably isn't enough for you. Well, that's fine, let's discuss this a little deeper. Is the opponent technically preparing to stop mega gengar or the sweeper that mega gengar is cleaning for? In all honesty, there are two different approaches here. Let's discuss the two.

A.) Preparing for mega gengar
Slightly more situational, preparing for a mega. But, sometimes it seems necessary. This also gives you the advantage of knowing what exactly you are going to use to kill him: Pursuit. Pursuit is the ONLY weapon in all the game that gives you the ability to hit mega gengar EVERY time. The issue is, the set mega gengar has will vary so much case to case, you more or less need something that is a special d wall and would have no weakness to gengar's more standard move sets. We'll call this shadow ball/sludge wave/tbolt/focus blast. There isn't much that resists all of this AND has pursuit. Let alone can kill mega gengar. The best option is undeniably scizor w/pursuit. But, if you are running band, you have to be absolutely sure he is going to avoid your priority to eat pursuit. Spiritomb comes to mind, but I believe it would have limited to no success at killing even if mega gengar isn't killing back first turn. But this is an option, take it as you will. The major issue with this is getting in safely, so you might just have to fodder something to get in. Make sure you do not fodder what your opponent was after. Also make sure this pokemon isn't critical, as destiny bond traps could happen to pursuits.

B.) Preparing for the sweeper
The main flaw with this is incredibly evident. "Doesn't this mean I have to keep the wall off the field after mega gengar achieves shadow tag form?" Yes. The idea here is to save that wall at all cost and hope you can get mega gengar while playing around it, or just not allowing it onto the field.Perhaps more importantly, though, you can focus on a diverse number of sweeper threats and have a more rounded team. This is my preferred method as I run stall and can't really squeeze in pursuit traps. The second flaw is you must know what your opponent is after. This is true every time. Lastly, even if your opponent brings out their sweeper and starts setting up, if you haven't gotten mega gengar, it could be a ruse to trap the wall. The benefits here, however, is that you don't waste team slots preparing and only deal with it when mega gengar comes up. Having a super effective move and check is still a good idea, but otherwise if you can play with n-1 pokemon, you should be fine.

Unfortunately, we should be able to agree that part b is completely unfair to the player. We don't force people to play with less pokemon than neccessary. The only other situation close to what shadow tag can do is pursuit trapping. This is limited to psychic, ghost and very weak pokemon. But pursuit is all about prediction if you have a fairly healthy pokemon. You can stay in and take a 40 BP SE move, or possibly switch out and avoid it by them over predicting. Here, that still doesn't exist.

The end issue is, most of these pokemon are irrelevant to what mega gengar is trying to do. It may be focused at only 4-5 threats in the whole tier, and after they are gone it just tries to take what it can with it. But, this is what the uber support is. It clears the path for your sweeper to do damage and finish you off.

All in all, when coupled and compared to the only other noticeable 'uber support', mega gengar IS different, but just as deadly. It clears checks/counters for sweepers with ease, and can give an unreasonable edge to a player by forcing the player to attempt to play one of the two options listed above to take it out before gengar gets their wall(s). What it can't kill is not important, it is support and therefore is not trying to kill everything. It singles out and kills what it is intended to do to well, however, and this is why the council will hopefully find mega gengar to be uber support.
 
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I've been going around a question for some time now: Would Mega Gengar have the same kind of dominance in OU, that Politoed, Ferrothorn and Scizor had during the last generation? Of those three, only Politoed was ever considered for Uber, as it defined a playstyle almost singlehandedly. In retrospective, Rain was probably broken, but instead of banning it outright, we whittled it little by little over the years, banning its most powerful abusers instead.

Much like Politoed last gen, Mega Gengar affects a whole playstyle, Stall, only by existing --and negatively in this case. People talk about multi-hit moves (Rock Blast Golem?!), scarfers, priority... all part of the offensive game. One of the main reasons I'd like a suspect test is to see if Stall has any answers to Mega Gengar. I think Generation VI has made a good job balancing the game, and I wouldn't like to see a return to Generation V's gorefest just because of a single pokemon.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before, but Aria Meloetta (either Assault Vest or 252HP/252SDef+) "checks" Gengar, in that it survives practically every hit, doesn't fear Disable, as it has several moves to threaten it, and it can 1/2HKO with minimal investment. Just theorymoning, though.

EDIT: I'd like to emphasize the words "check" and "theorymoning". I'm aware of Substitute/Perish Song/Pain Split/Disable/etc., and the fact that you can't switch into Mega Gengar. I'd hate to see some Raving Rabbid flaming my post for some minor oversights.
 
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I've been going around a question for some time now: Would Mega Gengar have the same kind of dominance in OU, that Politoed, Ferrothorn and Scizor had during the last generation? Of those three, only Politoed was ever considered for Uber, as it defined a playstyle almost singlehandedly. In retrospective, Rain was probably broken, but instead of banning it outright, we whittled it little by little over the years, banning its most powerful abusers instead.

Much like Politoed last gen, Mega Gengar affects a whole playstyle, Stall, only by existing --and negatively in this case. People talk about multi-hit moves (Rock Blast Golem?!), scarfers, priority... all part of the offensive game. One of the main reasons I'd like a suspect test is to see if Stall has any answers to Mega Gengar. I think Generation VI has made a good job balancing the game, and I wouldn't like to see a return to Generation V's gorefest just because of a single pokemon.

I'm not sure if it has been mentioned before, but Aria Meloetta (either Assault Vest or 252HP/252SDef+) "checks" Gengar, in that it survives practically every hit, doesn't fear Disable, as it has several moves to threaten it, and it can 1/2HKO with minimal investment. Just theorymoning, though.
Aria Meloetta is only available once Pokebank comes, and by that time if Mega Gengar is still around people will be using PerishTrap.

Also, who cares if Stall has an answer to Mega Gengar. Its job is not to take down its answers. For example, it's current best answer, Goodra, is walled by stuff like TTar, loses to Fairies, etc. If you're aiming to set up a Talonflame sweep, you only need to severely weaken the opponent's Rotom-W and Hippowdon with Mega Gengar. You don't have to take down that AV Goodra too.

And then when Pokebank comes around Gengar will be fucking with everything thanks to Perish Song, if it's not already banned at that stage.
 
Allow me to preface my augment with something: I have played a LOT of Hackmons. "What in the he'll does Hackmons have to do with a debate to ban a Pokemon, no less a Gen. VI one?" you might be asking yourself. The answer in short?

Everything.

Hackmons may seem like a shitty tier with a lot of gimmickmons, and you'd be right. However, once you get to the top of Hackmons, gimmicks won't cut it. There are very well designed teams that take advantage of everything under the sun, making each battle uniquely challenging. One of the strongest strategies I've seen in Hackmons is Shadow Tag Perish Song Giratina. Allow me to remind you, this is a tier where Wonder Guard Spiritomb, Jolteon, and Scizor are available. This leads to a great number of stall tactics, and the greatest user of those is none other than Giratina.

While M-Gengar may not have nearly the amount of bulk that Giratina has, it has some other advantages:

1. It's not Hackmons, so it can run attacking moves if the need arises.

2. Its glorious speed. As many others in the thread have pointed out, it takes a lot to outspeed this thing,and this allows it to pull of this strategy even better.

3. The inability of counters to come in on it. If you have a counter for M-Gengar, good luck bringing it in. Unless your team is mono-ghost (and even then there are a bunch of issues with that), you cannot switch out. As soon as Gengar can come in on you, you have recieved a death sentence. And if your opponent is using perish-trapper Gengar, they'll know how to use it.

I belive the reason something should be banned it that it is uncounterable. If there is a Pokemon that has no effective counters, then more than one Pokemon on a team will have to be dedicated to stopping that threat. At that point, it has become "overcentralizing" and creates a shitty meta. Instead of having 4drag2mag, you'd have 2drag2mag2M-Gengar checks. It would stifile team variety, usability, and does not contribute something that cannot be replaced (Wobby/Gothitelle). That is why M-Gengar should be SHADOW-banned from OU.
 

ginganinja

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I belive the reason something should be banned it that it is uncounterable. If there is a Pokemon that has no effective counters, then more than one Pokemon on a team will have to be dedicated to stopping that threat. At that point, it has become "overcentralizing" and creates a shitty meta. Instead of having 4drag2mag, you'd have 2drag2mag2M-Gengar checks.
Something being "uncounterable" is generally not something we ban for. Hydreigon for instance, is technically uncounterable, since almost nothing can switch in on it, but its not Uber. Mega Gengar is a special case since Shadow Tag utterly removes your ability to switch but I still feel very uncomfortable banning something just because its uncounterable, - there are better reasons out there.
 
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