I guess that's true.
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Pokémon Charizard
- Thread starter X5Dragon
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Thank you both for missing my points. -_-
Seriously, I'm not trying to be mean here but...
A) I did that damage calculation and said that Tyranitar can switch into any other move. Even without Stealth Rock you risk a 93% chance of being 2HKO'd by Focus Blast, so naturally it's not going to try to switch into that. If you do let Assault Vest Tyranitar in though, you can't then try to Focus Blast him without (likely,) losing Charizard Y in the process. (The fact that both Focus Blast and Stone Edge aren't very accurate makes the whole thing more of a gamble.)
B) I was specifically responding to your comparison to Fire Blast. Heatran coming in on your Fire Blast is less likely to cost you a game than Politoed interrupting your SolarBeam.
(On a related note, looking through a bunch of Gen 5 Smogon analyses, notice how many sun sweepers actually use SolarBeam. The ones that do, to my knowledge, are only given the recommendation to use SolarBeam alongside Sunny Day. That should speak volumes to how important it is that SolarBeam not be interrupted.)
C) This applies to both responses I got. You both seem to be assuming you're going to predict your opponents moves 100% of the time, which just isn't true. You're not going to keep every Tyranitar from getting in on Charizard Y, whether it be because it was brought in after you KO'd another Pokemon, you mispredicted whether your opponent would switch to him or Jellicent, or Focus Blast will miss, and so on and so forth. Similarly, if you run SolarBeam it will be interrupted in some of your games. Maybe your opponent will run Heatran alongside a Sand Stream user.
I'm just trying to point out that Charizard Y has some pretty big problems with other weather starters. Even if Ttar switches into Focus Blast and eats 50% of his health, he still set Sand Stream in motion, which is pretty detrimental to Charizard Y's success. From there your opponent has a lot of options to either force Charizard out or just switch to another answer. The fact that he shares his dual STABs with another big Pokemon right now (Talonflame,) means that most teams should have something else capable of handling the problem.
Finally, someone earlier wanted to see damage calcs on Politoed with SolarBeam, so let's get those going.
(Note: I'm using the correct SpA and no item on Charizard.)
Seiterman
Imo you are right. You won't always predict whatever your opponent is gonna switch in. However, you also have to remember that your opponent will have to predict as well if you're keeping ZardY or no. Heck, if you haven't evolved your Charizard yet, depending on your team, they might have to predict whether you're carrying ZardX or ZardY.
If your opponent mispredicts(i.e. you predicted a Ttar switch in, so you switched in a Ttar counter), he/she will undoubtly lose momentum or they might even end up with a dead mon.
So the question is, is it viable to drop Solarbeam, a move that is only threatened by 3 pokemon(2 of those are not really that used anymore, imo Politoed will surely go down to UU because of the meta we're in) but threatens a whole bunch of ZardY's potential checks/counters, and replace it with Air Slash(a mediocre move that offers little to no coverage at all)?
Also, on a different note, it's pretty (sorry for the word) dumb to even compare Talonflame to ZardY. Saying that a team that counters Talonflame's coverage of Fire/Flying can counter ZardY's coverage is plain wrong. Unless of course, you replace Solarbeam with Air Slash. Solarbeam nails Rotom-W and Azumarill while Focus Blast can nail Heatran. Although I myself carry HP Ground over Focus Miss. Gliscor melts in one Fire Blast. Although there are things that will wall ZardY but not Talonflame. Point is, no, not all Talonflame checks are ZardY checks as well.
Also, one last thing, if you're solely relying on ZardY to check/counter your opponent's water type mons, you're gonna have a bad time. Also, in the sun,
252+ SpA (custom) SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 332-392 (86.45 - 102.08%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
All in all, you're arguing that Solarbeam is useless because a weather inducer can switch in and ruin your day if you mispredicted. Imo this a pretty one-sided situation that isn't a justifiable excuse to not run a move that brings so much more to the table.
Would you rather not drive a car, in fear that an accident will cost you your life, or will you drive a car, learn how to drive it carefully, reaping all the benefits that comes from it all the while being aware of its risks?
Imo you are right. You won't always predict whatever your opponent is gonna switch in. However, you also have to remember that your opponent will have to predict as well if you're keeping ZardY or no. Heck, if you haven't evolved your Charizard yet, depending on your team, they might have to predict whether you're carrying ZardX or ZardY.
If your opponent mispredicts(i.e. you predicted a Ttar switch in, so you switched in a Ttar counter), he/she will undoubtly lose momentum or they might even end up with a dead mon.
So the question is, is it viable to drop Solarbeam, a move that is only threatened by 3 pokemon(2 of those are not really that used anymore, imo Politoed will surely go down to UU because of the meta we're in) but threatens a whole bunch of ZardY's potential checks/counters, and replace it with Air Slash(a mediocre move that offers little to no coverage at all)?
Also, on a different note, it's pretty (sorry for the word) dumb to even compare Talonflame to ZardY. Saying that a team that counters Talonflame's coverage of Fire/Flying can counter ZardY's coverage is plain wrong. Unless of course, you replace Solarbeam with Air Slash. Solarbeam nails Rotom-W and Azumarill while Focus Blast can nail Heatran. Although I myself carry HP Ground over Focus Miss. Gliscor melts in one Fire Blast. Although there are things that will wall ZardY but not Talonflame. Point is, no, not all Talonflame checks are ZardY checks as well.
Also, one last thing, if you're solely relying on ZardY to check/counter your opponent's water type mons, you're gonna have a bad time. Also, in the sun,
252+ SpA (custom) SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 332-392 (86.45 - 102.08%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
All in all, you're arguing that Solarbeam is useless because a weather inducer can switch in and ruin your day if you mispredicted. Imo this a pretty one-sided situation that isn't a justifiable excuse to not run a move that brings so much more to the table.
Would you rather not drive a car, in fear that an accident will cost you your life, or will you drive a car, learn how to drive it carefully, reaping all the benefits that comes from it all the while being aware of its risks?
The only reason I can see to run Air Slash on Charizard Y is as an accurate STAB option. Problem is, Flame Charge does that better, because it gives a much needed patch to speed, and gets an additional sun boost to make up for the lack. Yes, it's going off the weaker attack stat, but if you are looking for power, your not going to use Air Slash over Fire Blast anyway. Hitting Fighting types for SE is pointless, since Zard Y's Fire Blast will probably OHKO most Fighting types anyway
I'd say Solar Beam is pretty much a must for Charizard Y. It makes the most of the sun, and counters two of it's weaknesses.
As for Charizard Y's other coverage moves:
Dragon Pulse is a terrible idea unless you really need to hit Kingdra or Charizard X. The reason for this is that Zard Y's resisted Fire Blast is still more powerful than a neutral non-STAB attack.
HP Ice is a better option to nail Dragon types. It notably hits Dragonite and Noivern hard, who are fairly good at shutting down a sweep.
Focus Blast as you mentioned is the other good option, as it hits Heatran and T-Tar very hard.
Ancient Power isn't a bad option if you need rock coverage and you're feeling lucky.
Ominous Wind probably shouldn't be used. Nearly anything that's neutral to Fire Blast can be cleanly OHKOed, so hitting Psychic and Ghost types for SE isn't really a necessity.
Despite the risks of weather switch-ins and accuracy, Fire Blast, Solarbeam and Focus Blast give you pretty great super/neutral coverage and serious instantaneous power. But obviously completely screw you against the majority of dragons. Without HP Ice or Dragon Pulse, your best option will be a sun boosted Fire Blast... Which quite frankly just doesn't cut it for me. HP Ice is definitely the better option, but for actually raising a Charizard in-game, most don't have the patience to get the IV's needed for it.
Why do you think I was trying to make a point against you? I'm actually in agreement with you, my post was simply to point out how Focus Blast is a legitimate enough option against Tyranitar and to be quite honest it's all I'd be using if I see my opponent has one, because up until TTar is dead or maimed YZard is hard walled with its other options.
That is gen 5, every team in the OU tier ran Politoed or Tyranitar pretty much. And Solarbeam on Ninetales is totally fair. The move has WAY more use on Charizard Y. Charizard-Y's problem is gonna be stealth rock more than Tyranitar or Politoed. And hell, you can wait to mega-evolve until they switch in Politoed/Tyranitar as a counter, and THEN megaevolve and create sun to scare 'em off. Playing around Politoed and Tyranitar is not impossible by any means, that`s not to say CharY is a counter, but it`s not stopped cold by Politoed and Tyranitar like Ninetales is. Also, they don't even know what your Charizard is until you actually megaevolve it. They could be switching in Politoed/Tyranitar and eating a tough-claws boosted Outrage.
Another thing, Politoed isn`t nearly as popular, and Tyranitar is way easier to counter with bulky fairies (still waiting on that fairy/ground type). Also... again... this is no longer the game of the weather wars. Rain and Sandstorm teams will still be popular, but they're just another team now. And without weather-starters, Solarbeam is a totally reasonable move.
^ Well yes and no. Solarbeam is certainly a reasonable move on a pokemon that has drought, but you can't ignore it's detrimental side-effects. If Charizard-Y Solarbeams on a Tyranitar switch, for example, that's a dead Charizard. You can play the prediction game and say 'but Focus Blast!', but the reality is that there is an inherent risk associated with using Solarbeam on a given turn.
Not saying that the move is not worth it, because with the weather nerf it certainly is worth it. You get a lot of benefit out of the move in terms of high base power coverage, and frankly I feel CharY doesn't have a reason NOT to run Solarbeam on any given set. But it doesn't help any to ignore that Solarbeam can potentially leave you exposed if you predict wrong. Which is entirely possible - I've always been of the opinion that there isn't a hell of a lot of skill to prediction, and it's really more like glorified guesswork but eh.
Not saying that the move is not worth it, because with the weather nerf it certainly is worth it. You get a lot of benefit out of the move in terms of high base power coverage, and frankly I feel CharY doesn't have a reason NOT to run Solarbeam on any given set. But it doesn't help any to ignore that Solarbeam can potentially leave you exposed if you predict wrong. Which is entirely possible - I've always been of the opinion that there isn't a hell of a lot of skill to prediction, and it's really more like glorified guesswork but eh.
Oh man responding to stuff!
The metagame is still very young, so there's still a lot of stabilization that needs to happen before you can totally count out Air Slash. I know Politoed isn't getting a whole lot of usage at all right now, but I think part of that is honestly because people don't want to be using the rain teams that were everywhere last generation (I know I don't. =P) Specs boosted rain boosted Hydro Pumps and the like will still dent most anything, and it's not like weather teams are just done due to the nerf. It'll probably take a while but I'm pretty sure the archetype will see a rise in usage in due time. Even counting Politoed as a less common threat though, you still have Tyranitar (who on his own is a huge threat and will likely stay a big part of the metagame,) and Hippowdon (who may see usage alongside Tyranitar.) I guess you could throw in Abomasnow and Aurorus if you want to be technical, but I don't think I can quite argue in their favor.
(Just to contrast, Flash Fire's only real viable user last gen was Heatran, and I don't think anything changed this gen to add to that list.)
I didn't bring up Talonflame as a comparison, but to say that his particular dual STABs are being specifically accounted for in most teams, which means most teams should have something that can switch into Charizard Y's STABs. I understand that he has coverage and Talonflame basically doesn't, and they hit specially and physically respectively, but it's still an issue that has to be considered.
Also I didn't include non-rain calcs because I just kind of assumed Politoed can't take a fully-powered SolarBeam and didn't think there were any questions of that nature. =P
All in all, I'm still apprehensive about using SolarBeam as a primary option on ZardY, but I'll concede that it definitely has enough uses to justify. It's not like he has other options. =/
I thought your post was trying to argue that by just having the move ZardY shuts down Ttar. I misunderstood then and I apologize for that.
The metagame is still very young, so there's still a lot of stabilization that needs to happen before you can totally count out Air Slash. I know Politoed isn't getting a whole lot of usage at all right now, but I think part of that is honestly because people don't want to be using the rain teams that were everywhere last generation (I know I don't. =P) Specs boosted rain boosted Hydro Pumps and the like will still dent most anything, and it's not like weather teams are just done due to the nerf. It'll probably take a while but I'm pretty sure the archetype will see a rise in usage in due time. Even counting Politoed as a less common threat though, you still have Tyranitar (who on his own is a huge threat and will likely stay a big part of the metagame,) and Hippowdon (who may see usage alongside Tyranitar.) I guess you could throw in Abomasnow and Aurorus if you want to be technical, but I don't think I can quite argue in their favor.
(Just to contrast, Flash Fire's only real viable user last gen was Heatran, and I don't think anything changed this gen to add to that list.)
I didn't bring up Talonflame as a comparison, but to say that his particular dual STABs are being specifically accounted for in most teams, which means most teams should have something that can switch into Charizard Y's STABs. I understand that he has coverage and Talonflame basically doesn't, and they hit specially and physically respectively, but it's still an issue that has to be considered.
Also I didn't include non-rain calcs because I just kind of assumed Politoed can't take a fully-powered SolarBeam and didn't think there were any questions of that nature. =P
All in all, I'm still apprehensive about using SolarBeam as a primary option on ZardY, but I'll concede that it definitely has enough uses to justify. It's not like he has other options. =/
I thought your post was trying to argue that by just having the move ZardY shuts down Ttar. I misunderstood then and I apologize for that.
Suprisingly I haven't run into many Politoeds while playing, but Tyranitar is still abundant so he's definitely the more prominent threat for our favorite starter whether Charizard dons his X or Y form Tyranitar is sure to give Charizard a headache. Hmm. Given that I'm more of a Zard X guy myself, what would be the optimal Moveset for Zard Y? I'd imagine it'd look something like this?
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Solar Beam/ Focus Blast
Ancient Power/Dragon Pulse
Filler move, maybe Air Slash, not much notable Special Moves beyond these.
Flamethrower/Fire Blast
Solar Beam/ Focus Blast
Ancient Power/Dragon Pulse
Filler move, maybe Air Slash, not much notable Special Moves beyond these.
Actually this brings me to another point- Politoed isn't really that much worse off this gen. Rain teams are, undisputedly. But Politoed itself doesn't really suffer all that much from the Drizzle nerf- it still for the most part has guaranteed Rain to play with every time you send it out. 5 turns or not, that still threatening. You could even argue that the change in mechanics actually make it easier to fit onto a team because it doesn't restrict you to using just rain-mons. Its still totally a viable mon.
Buuut this isn't a politoed thread, so I shall stop here.
Using Solarbeam when your opponent has a Tyrannitar, Hippowdon or Politoed on his team that isn't out on the field would be a horrible play, though. Bad playing hardly denounces how good it is on CharizardY ESPECIALLY as a move for revenge killing Politoed and Tyranitar. Hell, if you haven't megaevolved yet, it works as a deterrent for scaring off Politoed or Tyranitar, or just surprising them. Charizard is just SO unpredictable this gen. I've been playing with Y and X on the simulator, and the number of people who switch Gliscor into Charizard expecting X or Blissey into Charizard expecting Y is crazy. That first turn before you mega evolve is one of Charizard's BIGGEST advantages because your opponent can COMPLETELY mess up. Or he has to play super carefully and you get a bunch of momentum and sweep the enemy team.
MegaTyrannitar is the only thing that can handle both reasonably well that I can think of. Though even it doesn't want to take a focus blast without sand up.
I vastly prefer a mixed set for Charizard-Y. Something like Hydreigon's set last gen.
Hasty
252+ SpA/252 Spe/4HP
Earthquake
Air Slash/Focus Blast
Fire Blast
Solar Beam
Something like that. Wish it learned Superpower last gen. Would have been a better coverage move than Earthquake. but, eh can't win 'em all. Roost and Sunny Day have some potential utility on it as well.
Basically what the argument comes down to lol
mrglass
If you're feeling lucky Focus Miss is a much more considerable option, cuz that move has like a bugged 50/50 chance to hit lol
Also, just an observation. At first i thought you had to build your team around ZardY to get it to be effective im OU but Now that I've played well over a hundred games with it, I can say that I'm mistaken. ZardY effectively carries his own weight in any team imo. The fact that ZardY can safely switch on a predicted WoW, which, due to the increase of Ghost types that carries it as well as physical threats running rampant, is very common, is a big plus.
Charizard is also fantastic bait for T-Tar or Politoed. Switch your Charizard onto something that can't threaten it like Scizor, Boost/Roost on the first turn (I prefer to use this turn to pull of a Flame Charge) while T-Tar/Politoed switches in, and Mega Evolve to destroy them with Focus Blast/SolarBeam
Fire Fang is just too weak to justify using it. It was Flareon's strongest STAB Physical Fire Move until XY finally gave it Blitz, and it still didnt use Fire Fang. If you dont like Blitz's Recoil, Fire Punch is the next best thing, just keep in mind the drop in power can determine whether or not you score a important KO or not.
I have a 31/31/31/x/31/31 Adamant DD + Outrage Charmander (going to be running Charzard X) and I want to make the most of it but the "Trap & Dance" set just doesn't tickle my fancy. Any suggestions for a good different set? I was thinking a bulky sort of guy who Dragon Dances a few times and then sweeeeeeeps :D
i'm quite new to competitive battling, but would ne a viable option a bulky mega-x with hone claws and dragon rush?
MegaCharX is already Bulky, 1 turn to set with DD is all you need, + Speed nature is suggested, and im not sure how effective are the mixed sets running OverHeat/ FireBlast.
I've been screwing around with Smeargle paired with Charizard, and I thought it was worth mentioning.
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Timid, Own Tempo, 252 Speed, 252 HP, 4 Def
Spore
Parting Shot
Magic Coat
Stealth Rock
I've had a suprising amount of success with this set, Smeargle got a few new toys this Gen, so decided to try them out. Spore the opponent, then use Parting Shot on the opponent. Either A, they keep their Sleeping Pokemon in and now it's not only asleep but also has -1 in both attacking Stats, or B, they switch out their Sleeping Pokemon, and now one of their Pokemon is asleep while another has -1 in both attacking Stats. Zard X can sponge hits better after Parting Shot, almost guaranteeing that he'll be able to get at least one Dragon Dance up, and after that you go to Zard X's destructive shenanigans, even if he doesn't sweep the opposing team, if he can get 2-3 Mons down before going down itself that allows my other teammates to come in and clean up.
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Timid, Own Tempo, 252 Speed, 252 HP, 4 Def
Spore
Parting Shot
Magic Coat
Stealth Rock
I've had a suprising amount of success with this set, Smeargle got a few new toys this Gen, so decided to try them out. Spore the opponent, then use Parting Shot on the opponent. Either A, they keep their Sleeping Pokemon in and now it's not only asleep but also has -1 in both attacking Stats, or B, they switch out their Sleeping Pokemon, and now one of their Pokemon is asleep while another has -1 in both attacking Stats. Zard X can sponge hits better after Parting Shot, almost guaranteeing that he'll be able to get at least one Dragon Dance up, and after that you go to Zard X's destructive shenanigans, even if he doesn't sweep the opposing team, if he can get 2-3 Mons down before going down itself that allows my other teammates to come in and clean up.
What is your Charizard X's build? Standard DD?
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