My original point was and still technically is that gengar is not a win condition pokemon. Taking down one pokemon that is annoying to your team is great. Im not trying to say it isnt, but everyone here just assumes it gets the perish song off freely and it gets the taunt off freely. The opponent is not dead until you kill them. You may take down something important, but you aren't getting a free turn into your sweeper and misprediction could mean a wasted gengar. Why wouldn't I spam gyro ball until you died? You don't have a sub up at all since, like you said, I can't switch, so you may lose your gengar in vein. If you switch in on skarmory with sturdy, what's stopping it from whirlwinding you out and wish passing to it later. Gengar is not a win condition and is therefore not unhealthy. You have to run the perfect gengar to take care of the current threat. There are plenty of teams that can handle Mega gengar.
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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Yes but if gengar is running the perish trap ate he is restricted to JUST that and is now countered by many other pokemon
Yes, you have to run the perfect Gengar and that's so awesome about Mega Gengar because you tailor him to take out those specific threats! And also, you say Mega Gengar is useless after it takes out one pokemon. I disagree. If you have some life left after you use Perish Song, you might be able to use it again. For 3 atks + Destiny Bond, you can start spamming Shadow Ball since Ghost has good coverage now. You'll be doing damage to another 'mon at least. And the perish song set is mainly for stall teams and walls. Walls aren't normally fast since they're invested in HP and Def/SpD respectively, so Mega Gengar is commonly faster. Thus, you can trap, use Sub, then Protect, then switch out for the kill. And as for Gyro Ball, you CAN spam it, but if I use Sub and Protect, you're not hitting me right? Also, if your Skarmory has Sturdy and I get it down to 1% I don't think you'll be guaranteed that free switch in later on considering on the prevalence of Stealth Rocks, and how Mega Gengar is used to aid sweepers, aka I might be using attacking moves when your Skarmory switches in and it dies before getting the Wish. And yeah, a lot of teams can handle Mega Gengar depending on the set. The 3 Atks + Destiny Bond does well against offense, and PS + ST against stall, but I would say that due to the prevalence of offense, I would run 3 Atks + Destiny Bond. Or if you're desperate for something against stall walls, you can just use the PS + ST set. But in the end, that doesn't matter, since Mega Gengar is just coverage for your team to handle a specific 'mon. Also, Mega Gengar doesn't necessarily need to take damage when switching in to a 'mon. I commonly use CB 252 Hp / 252 Atk Scizor to tank a hit, then use U-turn before switching in Mega Gengar to switch, or other slow yet powerful pokemon to have my Mega Gengar get a free switch in.
What part of Mega Gengar being considered under support clause did you not get? Or is it the part where you use the perfect moveset to take out counters that you want gone?
Here's to you, friend.
While there are a lot of great reasons posted by those in favor of a quick ban, as opposed to believing that a suspect test may produce a different result (the stated criterion for quick bans), I would love to see those posters argue against your points and those of Zracknel's post @ http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ion-read-post-383.3493175/page-7#post-4997555 .
In a quick scan over the pages that followed Zracknel's post, which was fairly lengthy like yours, sadly I didn't see anyone thoroughly address and rebut his points, and I hope attention is paid to yours. When prompted for specific Pokémon earlier in the thread, I refrained from mentioning Pokémon like Honchkrow and Bisharp out of concern that we'd devolve into an off-topic debate over "but they're too crappy for OU and would only be OU to stop M-Gengar" (which is patently untrue with the presence of other new threats like Aegislash, but I digress), but to be honest I'm glad you've mentioned them. I'm really interested to see the responses, as I think that's where the productive discussion should head (indeed, that gets us away from some of the unhelpful "I don't have a problem with M-Gengar in wifi" posts).
And speaking of arguments that I've found a bit lacking, I'm not sure I buy into all of the moveslot switching some pro-ban posters have employed. It is true that M-Gengar is very versatile, but I've seen posters treating his moveset as changeable on the fly within the same discussion. E.g., when you're entering a battle with an opponent, you can't suddenly have Thunderbolt on M-Gengar if you realize your PerishTrap set would be lacking. It's true that M-Gengar can run many sets in the abstract, but we would all do well to remember that he's still limited to 4 set moveslots within a specific battle.
While I did forget the dazzling gleam being able to abuse sableye, which is a good point, the goodra weakness to perish set is already noted in my analysis. Goodra beats the attacking gengars, not the perish trap set. It merely does a nice chunk to it. So I'll edit the sableye note, thanks for noticing.
If he has free HP he can use Perish Trap again possibly. And when I run Perish Song, you can run Shadow Ball / Perish Song / Substitute / Protect. And now you can spam Shadow Ball and at least do some more damage. But it really doesn't matter either way, because now the way is open for my sweeper to rip apart your team.
Once it fulfills its role to kill a wall or hindrance, it is okay for Mega Gengar to die. IDC about the ghost anymore, because NOW I CAN SWEEP YOU!
Just to comment since I've seen this sort of thing said many times, this makes the potentially faulty assumption that the Gen 6 metagame won't move toward some sort of bulkier game. Suppose I'm running a bulkier lineup, and your sweeper might fear two Pokémon on my team. If M-Gengar can only take out one of them (and even that can depend on some prediction, at times), it would be a stretch to call that worthy of a quick ban.
Actually a lot of stall teams don't run a scarf user, which is Gengar's biggest killer. While priority is a big thing this Gen, I'll admit, that opens the way for tanky/stall teams to grow and flourish due to priorities lack of damage. But with things like Mega Gengar around it disrupts the growth of the stall game in Gen 6.
Most Bulky Pokemon have issues dealing with Mega-Gengar though, so I don't see why it wouldn't just take out both.
I specifically meant the taunt perish set, but i see your point. I simply am trying to get my point that gengar cant beat everything it needs to with one set. If youare facing hyper offense the best you can do with gengar is outspeed and destiny bound if you arent running the three attacks plus destiny bond set. The best you can do against blissey or ferrothorn with a 3 attacks set is pray you hit focus blast afew times in a row. Both of these playstyles could be potentially threatening to a pokemon you are trying to setup and if you were to use the perish set against hyper offense, you would likely have wasted a pokemon unless The opponent has scarf meinshao or something. If your opponent is running stall and you run three attacks, you have to whittle a bunch of the opponents walls down before gengar can be useful. Im not trying to say that genar isnt a fantastic situtional mon, but doesnt always take something down that threatens your team. It doesnt guarantee you the win and often becomes death fodder against certain playstyles. It is a fantastic mon no doubt, but I just don't see how its broken.
It was about taking out counters you want gone.
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Depending on the specifics, perhaps it could, and that is worth further investigation. Still, certain EV spreads could arise on bulky offense Pokémon to allow them to survive a hit or two from M-Gengar, making it very difficult for M-Gengar to do more than a straight 1-for-1. That is the sort of situation where a suspect test - letting the metagame and optimal EV spreads flourish fully - might reasonably produce a different result from a quick ban, though, is it not?
At any rate, my main goal was to respond to the more shallow (and frequent) argument of "well I take out 1 wall and then die, gg M-Gengar wins." That argument, like any 1-for-1 argument, isn't all that persuasive; I might be thrilled only to give up one Pokémon to get rid of your mega, especially if I've got a backup who can still wall your sweeper.
what you all don't realize is that gengar is supposed to come in and trap a slower weakened foe. If an obviously scarfed garchomp comes along gengar will switch out and return later on to continue to trap stuff. Shado tag along with base 170 special attack lets it easily kill all weakened foes.
and what is this "kill one wall and die" stuff? Gengar should kill one wall then switch out and kill more later on. after entry hazards racked up gengar would be great to trap pokemon lategame. And it has very few counters due to its great speed and decent bulk.
and what is this "kill one wall and die" stuff? Gengar should kill one wall then switch out and kill more later on. after entry hazards racked up gengar would be great to trap pokemon lategame. And it has very few counters due to its great speed and decent bulk.
Mega Gengar's point isn't beating every threat. It does not and never has to beat every threat.
The point is the sheer utility Mega Gengar brings to the team and what it can do to eliminate problematic Pokemon on your team is what makes it obnoxious. I'm calling out the anti-ban group like Mac1275 and many other users:
What part of Mega Gengar doesn't need to check and counter everything to be a threat don't you understand?
I want you to think this carefully and look at many of the pro banners, including myself, and almost NONE of the people quoted by users such as Nachos and co. even hint at Mega Gengar sweeping the metagame. Mega Gengar is not Gen 4 Garchomp / Salamence. Mega Gengar is not Gen 5 Excadrill / Blaziken. Mega Gengar is not even Gen 6 Mega Kangaskhan / Mega Blaziken. Mega Gengar is unique in that it does not have to be a sweeper to be a threat. It definitely is Uber under Support Clause alone.
The point is the sheer utility Mega Gengar brings to the team and what it can do to eliminate problematic Pokemon on your team is what makes it obnoxious. I'm calling out the anti-ban group like Mac1275 and many other users:
What part of Mega Gengar doesn't need to check and counter everything to be a threat don't you understand?
I want you to think this carefully and look at many of the pro banners, including myself, and almost NONE of the people quoted by users such as Nachos and co. even hint at Mega Gengar sweeping the metagame. Mega Gengar is not Gen 4 Garchomp / Salamence. Mega Gengar is not Gen 5 Excadrill / Blaziken. Mega Gengar is not even Gen 6 Mega Kangaskhan / Mega Blaziken. Mega Gengar is unique in that it does not have to be a sweeper to be a threat. It definitely is Uber under Support Clause alone.
Gengar can beat everything it wants to with three attacks + destiny bond. Say I build my team around Garchomp, but I find that my team is incapable of dealing with Skarmory and Trevenant (entirely hypothetical). I can run Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt on my Gengar since that IS what I need in order to deal with those two threats. The rest of the moves can just be filler (ideally Destiny Bond, etc, etc.) It's only a problem if there are such a diversity of threats that I need to run more than three to four different moves with that much coverage. In that case, I would proooobably take a serious re-look at my team. Also, if stall is such a threat, then you should run the Perish Song test. I fail to see how bad one's team must be if you're weak to all types of offense, stall, and need Mega Gengar to kill everything in all of these teams.
if you would like well thought out and descriptive posts, try looking through my posts or zracknels. we both have posted long thorough arguments to try and address a lot of the important and *true* points made by the pro-ban side. we don't disagree that gengar does all these things, we discuss other points that address these strengths and the extent to which mega gengar is a problem because of these strengths (and weaknesses, because even with shadow tag, they do exist)
I dont think people seem to understand the point I am trying to get across, so I will stop posting after this. To clarify, I am not saying that gengar is trying to sweep at all. I don't believe that this is its purpose. I fully understand that gengar is used to trap potential threats to teamates. All I am trying to say is that the opposing trapped pokemon will not splash about while you perish trap it and does not take out many counters to sweepers with attacking sets. It has to choose what threats it enables itself to take out. The threats that gengar tries to take out are not in any way sitting ducks. They can fight back until one side or the other is victorious. While gengar is generally victorious, it doesnt always have the correct tools to take out one of the bigger threats to the team. This makes gengar IMO less of a brokenmon. Also, having gengar take out a blissey to open up a special sweep is great and all, but most upper level players will likely have at least two checks to every pokemon on your team. Taking out a blissey for your alakazam is useless if talonflame is running lose. Also, I dont believe that most of the top OU mons currently care about gengar at all as I mentioned in my original post. This is what I have been sayig. I have no idea how any of you have come to the conclusion of me sweeping with gengar unless I misworded something.I apologize if i did. Im very sorry that my passion to keep mons like gengar from quick ban started to derail the thread. Carry on.
From what I've heard on this from and from a friend...over half of you want mega-gengar because he's really broken. There is no counter to mega-gengar because you cannot switch your Pokemon and by the time you can get a counter in the other Pokemon is already dead. for those of you that still want a suspect to play with this broken pokemon and waste all of our time and smogon's resources, here's a scenario for you:
Turn 1: Gengar and another pokemon come out. Gengar mega-evolves and traps the other pokemon, making it impossible to switch in a counter (unless you have a move that gengar is weak to). Gengar substitutes, opposing pokemon fails to hit gengar. Next turn Gengar disables the opposing Pokemon (sucks for you if that pokemon was choiced because now you cannot use ANYTHING). Gengar now proceeds to attack until the Pokemon is dead. You have one KO'd pokemon on you and now you switch to something that can kill Gengar, Gengar switches out to something that can kill, resist, or wall it's counter. Gengar is also immune to Shadow tag since it is a ghost type.
You have to lose one pokemon in order to get in a counter to Gengar, and even then Gengar can switch out and come back in when you switch into a pokemon that it can beat easily. Rinse and repeat until you lose. Some people need to see this problem from the side fighting against that gengar and being unlucky. So you may continue to send your "He's not THAT strong. He can be beaten" arguments and waste all of our time, but face it Mega-Gengar is getting banned. Theory alone is proving this.
Turn 1: Gengar and another pokemon come out. Gengar mega-evolves and traps the other pokemon, making it impossible to switch in a counter (unless you have a move that gengar is weak to). Gengar substitutes, opposing pokemon fails to hit gengar. Next turn Gengar disables the opposing Pokemon (sucks for you if that pokemon was choiced because now you cannot use ANYTHING). Gengar now proceeds to attack until the Pokemon is dead. You have one KO'd pokemon on you and now you switch to something that can kill Gengar, Gengar switches out to something that can kill, resist, or wall it's counter. Gengar is also immune to Shadow tag since it is a ghost type.
You have to lose one pokemon in order to get in a counter to Gengar, and even then Gengar can switch out and come back in when you switch into a pokemon that it can beat easily. Rinse and repeat until you lose. Some people need to see this problem from the side fighting against that gengar and being unlucky. So you may continue to send your "He's not THAT strong. He can be beaten" arguments and waste all of our time, but face it Mega-Gengar is getting banned. Theory alone is proving this.
You clearly did not read the mentioned posts. Zracknel and I both made long descriptive anti-ban posts. If you would like to contribute, I encourage you to do so, but please read other peoples posts before assuming what they are saying and then "ragequitting" the discussion. There is just largely a lack of coherent posts in this very long thread and I was trying to contribute a few solid ones that are anti-ban that have addressed the many good points made by the pro ban side. I am not in favor of the ban, but as a logical, competitive player, I have to concede true points and not just blindly reject them. There are things about gengar that make him incredibly strong. I can not just lie and say gengar is a uu piece of junk. Just cuz I don't think he's ban worthy doesn't mean he's weak. I make long posts with detail like I do so that my argument isn't merely naysay'd and ignored. You are entitled to form an opinion, but please don't form mine. Read my posts before you argue points that I have already seen throughout this 30+ page thread at me to agree with me (while assuming I'm just another broke-mon banmonger who doesn't think before posting).
I don't know if anybody has thought of this broken scenario yet. But Mega-Gengar on a Volt-Turn team is just impossible to beat. Volt-Turn teams already punish you for switching Pokemon by losing precious momentum that is really key to a match. Mengar (shut up its catchy) takes that strategy and then also cuts off potentially half of your teams available switch-ins just due to the threat of him Shadow Tagging.
Honestly, Mega Gengar had me shaking in my boots when I first heard about it, but it's never really given me any trouble in battles. You're better off just giving normal Gengar a Life Orb and letting it keep Levitate. I've never come across any of the Volt-Turn teams with Mengar, or any of the broken strategies discussed, so I'll assume they're pretty few and far between. I say keep it, I can still take it out pretty easily with Scizor or really anything with an attacking move.
My response was general and I was specifically called out for misbehavior. I am not saying gengar is bad. Again, I think it is a top threat. I just dont think it is broken like some others, not you specifically, do. I thought I brought up some decent points. Again Im sorry if you think Im not helping your argument. Now, unless anyone wants to quote or mention me, Im gone.
Ladder until you see a well-played Mega Gengar.
Hint: It takes quite a while.
All I can see from this post is that you clearly do not know how to play Mega Gengar. Also I have trolled some Scarf Diggersby by not Megaing until I kill them. It's a really cheap trick that works on the ladder a lot, but not in high-level play.
Also who cares if they are few and far between? Remember BW1 Deoxys-D? How many people used that thing in OU? Like 2 or 3% of players, until people started realizing how to use it. Which was like a week before it got suspected.
Yeah, you have a point. I actually didn't start laddering on Pokebank until just recently, when I found out I had to in order to run SR Skarm. So It'll take me a while to work my way up to where there's more than noobs playing Mengar.
Coincidentally, I used Deoxys-D in BW1 UU. That thing was so underrated.
Coincidentally, I used Deoxys-D in BW1 UU. That thing was so underrated.
I have only seen one thing wall this and that's Bulletproof Chestnaught (with EQ it can also fight back). Outside that MegaGengar can take on pretty much anything else currently in-game or on the OU ladders. Shadowtag + Boosted stats + an overall AMAZING movepool make MegaGengar truly monster to fight that can take most priority hits from Talonflame, Greninja, Mamoswine, etc. Add to that the general boost to Ghost types and its now additional benefit of being Poison-type to handle Togekiss, FLorges, Azumarill, etc.........................................
...yeah I would say ban Gengarite from OU its normal form can do enough damage as it is
...yeah I would say ban Gengarite from OU its normal form can do enough damage as it is
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