Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[yoman5]

I don't know anyone who would run HP Fire, Taunt, and Substitute. I certainly wouldn't run HP Fire and Sub on the same set since they're both for beating Scizor. Also what part of Shadow Tag don't you get--Pursuiters can't switch in and don't even counter him without Shadow Tag, since he can Sub. Taunt+Sub is even a very viable set for destroying stall teams. Also you can handle every problem mon for your sweeper. For example, Talonflame only needs Rotom-W removed before trying to sweep, Salamence only needs Fairies and some Steels removed first, etc. Unless you're trying to use SD Ledian, there won't be that many teams that have more than one or two mons that can stop your sweeper, and a good sweeper only has ~3-4 mons in OU that can reliably stop its sweep. Your Mega Gengar only needs to kill those 3-4 or maybe 5 mons. If covering all your sweeper's counters is really hard for you, then try other sweepers.

Also I only responded to your posts. If you want to see good pro-ban points look at any of the posts ginga linked back somewhere--I don't want to repeat them all and there's no point in repeating them all.

I have, and the point here is I'm offering new opinions. There is no point in reiterating the things already said. And again, mega gengar takes one turn to gain shadow tag, which is why pursuit counters are in fact counters, as mentioned even by pro ban players. That is why only pursuiters can be listed as counters. Also, again, volt switch being on many teams allows you to switch early on. Again, I'm trying to make new points and address new points, not thing that have been said or answered already in the other 30+ pages of this thread. Again, if your goal is to let a sweeper go, scarfers are not actually stopped by gengar. There are 3-4 walls in ou your sweeper needs an answer to, and gengar kills those, but scarfers are still an issue for your sweep because gengar can not answer them. (Again, repeating myself endlessly, gengar is amazing. It is not bad. I am just of the opinion that gengar is not worthy of a ban. Kyurem B was (is) similarly amazing and suspected, but not worthy of a ban in the end.)

 

[AOPSUser]

I have, and the point here is I'm offering new opinions. There is no point in reiterating the things already said. And again, mega gengar takes one turn to gain shadow tag, which is why pursuit counters are in fact counters, as mentioned even by pro ban players. That is why only pursuiters can be listed as counters. Also, again, volt switch being on many teams allows you to switch early on. Again, I'm trying to make new points and address new points, not thing that have been said or answered already in the other 30+ pages of this thread. Again, if your goal is to let a sweeper go, scarfers are not actually stopped by gengar. There are 3-4 walls in ou your sweeper needs an answer to, and gengar kills those, but scarfers are still an issue for your sweep because gengar can not answer them. (Again, repeating myself endlessly, gengar is amazing. It is not bad. I am just of the opinion that gengar is not worthy of a ban. Kyurem B was (is) similarly amazing and suspected, but not worthy of a ban in the end.)

Um, since when has any pro-banner say that Pursuiters are counters? You're just making yourself look silly now. Allow me to repeat--they do not even come close to countering him. They can't switch in, and Gengar learns Substitute, and obviously you're not Megaing up in front of a Pursuiter.

VoltTurn is on many teams but not on all 6 members of any team. Mega Gengar will trap those mons without Volt/Turn. Also sure Mega Gengar can't stop some Scarfers, but remember what people did prior to Gen 6? They dealt with the Scarfers another way. You have a team, not one mon, and not two mons.

And you can't compare Mega Gengar to Kyurem-B. The closest comparison you could make is Gen 4 Wobbufett, and even that isn't fair for Mega Gengar. Kyurem-B is a tank, Mega Gengar is a sniper. And Mega Gengar is a really good sniper, since it doesn't matter where the hole is in your team, it will find it.

 

[farranpoison]

I have, and the point here is I'm offering new opinions. There is no point in reiterating the things already said. And again, mega gengar takes one turn to gain shadow tag, which is why pursuit counters are in fact counters, as mentioned even by pro ban players. That is why only pursuiters can be listed as counters. Also, again, volt switch being on many teams allows you to switch early on. Again, I'm trying to make new points and address new points, not thing that have been said or answered already in the other 30+ pages of this thread. Again, if your goal is to let a sweeper go, scarfers are not actually stopped by gengar. There are 3-4 walls in ou your sweeper needs an answer to, and gengar kills those, but scarfers are still an issue for your sweep because gengar can not answer them. (Again, repeating myself endlessly, gengar is amazing. It is not bad. I am just of the opinion that gengar is not worthy of a ban. Kyurem B was (is) similarly amazing and suspected, but not worthy of a ban in the end.)

I don't think you know the definition of a "counter" as well as you think. A "counter" has to be able to switch into the mon it threatens without being 1H/2HKO'd. First of all, numerous calcs have been posted about how much damage Pursuiters like Scizor/Tyranitar face if MGengar attacks them as they switch in. OF course, MGengar can always just Sub and switch out. Now, this brings up the second point about "counters." Great, your Scizor/Tyranitar has forced MGengar out. Well then, time to be a "counter" and switch into MGengar whenever it comes out again, right? Oh wait, SHADOW TAG.

When talking about Shadow Tag, you cannot talk about "counters." This has been reiterated time and time again by numerous experienced players and even moderators. Throw anything that involves "counters" out the window when talking about MGengar. They won't help your argument in the slightest.

Difference between MGengar and Kyurem-B? You can switch into Kyurem-B at any time.

 

[gregj91]

Although I'm not a tester, today, I have researched Gengar's capabilities, and I found that this set looks like the perfect sign of Mega Gengar being uber to me, provided one switches on turn of mega evolution to Mega'Gar, you know, the only turn that occurs before Gengar Mega evolves, and has reduced speed as a result, as well as not having shadow tag, but rather, levitate, meaning you can switch on the turn gengar switches in, but not after that:

Mega Gengar
Timid Nature
252HP/252 SpA/4 Speed
-Perish Song
-Protect
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast

^ If defenses are the same on mega evo turn, Mega Gengar can be easily countered by Bullet Punch from Banded Scizor/Scarfed Pure Power Medicham, among other threats that beat Gengar to the KO, but as those counters are few and far in between, if you know one trainer has priority, you can attempt to remedy that w/ prediction regarding what pokemon the opponent has out currently, as well as what Gengar will take on his switch-in turn, knowing a counter must come the turn after the switch to Gengar, or else he/she could mega evolve and take one opponent pokemon out in the process. But in order to get a surefire win out of it w/o letting MGar faint, you could switch onto a normal/fighting type attack, let the opponent switch into a counter while MGar uses Perish Song, then use Protect, half-chance Protect, and finally, switch, knowing that the opponent cannot switch out, even on the turn MGar switches, even if the perish count drops to 1 if he/she is trapped by Shadow Tag, meaning the trapped opponent is left to faint to the escape-and-leave-to-perish strategy that could be used if perish song count drops to 1 w/ the non-MGar pokemon trapped and unable to switch before he/she faints to Perish Song, and that would be the true definition of a strategy of an Uber used wisely, and I believe that due to Shadow Tag + Perish Song, the unpredictability Mega Gengar brings, among other factors, should mean the death of unbanned Gengarite in OU, but let's see how it does before we make a final conclusion. After all, this is only one set. There could be others more OU-appropriate, but let's see if M-Gengar can last in Ubers before we send Gengarite there permanently...

Calcs:

252 Atk Adamant Banded Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP Mega Gengar on Mega Evo Turn(assuming defenses same as normal Gengar)=(22*300*60/50/80+2)*1.5*R/100=128/167 to 151/167=77.1%-90.7%=2HKO w/o Rocks

252 Atk Jolly Scarfed Pure Power Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP Mega Gengar on Mega Evo Turn(assuming defenses same as normal Gengar)==(22*224*70/50/80+2)*1.5*2*0.85=225/167=100%+=guaranteed 1HKO w/o Rocks

^ Proof of most likely MGar counters and what he'll face taking if he stays in to take damage. Of course, that does not disprove the Gengarite's Uberness... well, unless maybe if you're unlucky enough to see the half-guaranteed chance that Protect will work twice in a row fail on you...

 

[farranpoison]

Although I'm not a tester, today, I have researched Gengar's capabilities, and I found that this set looks like the perfect sign of Mega Gengar being uber to me, provided one switches on turn of mega evolution to Mega'Gar, you know, the only turn that occurs before Gengar Mega evolves, and has reduced speed as a result, as well as not having shadow tag, but rather, levitate, meaning you can switch on the turn gengar switches in, but not after that:

Mega Gengar
Timid Nature
252HP/252 SpA/4 Speed
-Perish Song
-Protect
-Shadow Ball
-Focus Blast

^ If defenses are the same on mega evo turn, Mega Gengar can be easily countered by Bullet Punch from Banded Scizor/Scarfed Pure Power Medicham, among other threats that beat Gengar to the KO, but as those counters are few and far in between, if you know one trainer has priority, you can attempt to remedy that w/ prediction regarding what pokemon the opponent has out currently, as well as what Gengar will take on his switch-in turn, knowing a counter must come the turn after the switch to Gengar, or else he/she could mega evolve and take one opponent pokemon out in the process. But in order to get a surefire win out of it w/o letting MGar faint, you could switch onto a normal/fighting type attack, let the opponent switch into a counter while MGar uses Perish Song, then use Protect, half-chance Protect, and finally, switch, knowing that the opponent cannot switch out, even on the turn MGar switches, even if the perish count drops to 1 if he/she is trapped by Shadow Tag, meaning the trapped opponent is left to faint to the escape-and-leave-to-perish strategy that could be used if perish song count drops to 1 w/ the non-MGar pokemon trapped and unable to switch before he/she faints to Perish Song, and that would be the true definition of a strategy of an Uber used wisely, and I believe that due to Shadow Tag + Perish Song, the unpredictability Mega Gengar brings, among other factors, should mean the death of unbanned Gengarite in OU, but let's see how it does before we make a final conclusion. After all, this is only one set. There could be others more OU-appropriate, but let's see if M-Gengar can last in Ubers before we send Gengarite there permanently...

Calcs:

252 Atk Adamant Banded Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP Mega Gengar on Mega Evo Turn(assuming defenses same as normal Gengar)=(22*300*60/50/80+2)*1.5*R/100=128/167 to 151/167=77.1%-90.7%=2HKO w/o Rocks

252 Atk Jolly Scarfed Pure Power Medicham Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP Mega Gengar on Mega Evo Turn(assuming defenses same as normal Gengar)==(22*224*70/50/80+2)*1.5*2*0.85=225/167=100%+=guaranteed 1HKO w/o Rocks

^ Proof of most likely MGar counters and what he'll face taking if he stays in to take damage. Of course, that does not disprove the Gengarite's Uberness... well, maybe if you're unlucky enough to see the half-guaranteed chance that Protect will work twice in a row fail on you...

Nope. Nope nope nope.

Lots of problems on your post. You may have some idea that MGengar can be put in Ubers, but first clean up your points.

First: Why is MGengar running Perish Song without Substitute + Protect? No one does that.

Second: There is no "let's see how well a mon lasts in Ubers." Ubers is a banlist first and a tierlist second. It doesn't matter if a mon does well or not in Ubers. If it is deemed too disruptive to the OU metagame, it's placed in Ubers.

Third: Cool calcs, but if someone is sending out Medicham into MGengar, they're toast. Same with Scizor, if it's hit by a Shadow Ball on the switch-in. And, I have no idea why you think this but the only stat left the same on the turn a mon Mega Evolves is Speed. Defenses are increased accordingly on the turn it MEvos.

Fourth: Stop talking about counters to MGengar. THERE ARE NO COUNTERS TO A SHADOW TAG POKEMON.

After typing MGengar so many times, I feel like I should be calling it McGengar. Might as well, since it's as silly as all the other uninformed things that have been posted here.

 

[dende5416]

Um, since when has any pro-banner say that Pursuiters are counters? You're just making yourself look silly now. Allow me to repeat--they do not even come close to countering him. They can't switch in, and Gengar learns Substitute, and obviously you're not Megaing up in front of a Pursuiter.

VoltTurn is on many teams but not on all 6 members of any team. Mega Gengar will trap those mons without Volt/Turn. Also sure Mega Gengar can't stop some Scarfers, but remember what people did prior to Gen 6? They dealt with the Scarfers another way. You have a team, not one mon, and not two mons.

And you can't compare Mega Gengar to Kyurem-B. The closest comparison you could make is Gen 4 Wobbufett, and even that isn't fair for Mega Gengar. Kyurem-B is a tank, Mega Gengar is a sniper. And Mega Gengar is a really good sniper, since it doesn't matter where the hole is in your team, it will find it.

No no, that one part is right. The mods have said, straight forward, and specifically, since shadow tag prevents people from switching out, that there are NO COUNTERS. That's not pro or anti ban opinion. That's the mods opinion.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Worth reminding people who say that Pursuit counters Mega Gengar: if Mega Gengar carries Destiny Bond, you lose your Pursuiter in the process. The only common Pursuit users that come to mind are CB Scizor and Tyranitar, both of which have no way to get around Destiny Bond. So either way it's forcing you into a 1vs1 trade, likely 1v2 if Mega Gengar took out one of your pokes before you managed to bring in Scizor/T-tar (which, again is a plausible scenario because of Shadow Tag forcing you to stay in on Mega Gengar, even if you're guaranteed to die to it next turn).

 

[yoman5]

I don't think you know the definition of a "counter" as well as you think. A "counter" has to be able to switch into the mon it threatens without being 1H/2HKO'd. First of all, numerous calcs have been posted about how much damage Pursuiters like Scizor/Tyranitar face if MGengar attacks them as they switch in. OF course, MGengar can always just Sub and switch out. Now, this brings up the second point about "counters." Great, your Scizor/Tyranitar has forced MGengar out. Well then, time to be a "counter" and switch into MGengar whenever it comes out again, right? Oh wait, SHADOW TAG.

When talking about Shadow Tag, you cannot talk about "counters." This has been reiterated time and time again by numerous experienced players and even moderators. Throw anything that involves "counters" out the window when talking about MGengar. They won't help your argument in the slightest.

Difference between MGengar and Kyurem-B? You can switch into Kyurem-B at any time.

I'm not directly comparing them, not even remotely. They're different roles with different moves typing and abilities. However, I am comparing them in the matter of strength and how well they do their jobs. Kyurem B was thought to have so much power and such great (albeit not varied) moves available to it that it was too strong for OU. Gengarite brings a similarly high level of power with a similarly great movepool.

As far as counters: This is why I'm speaking to them as far as only pursuit counters. If you assume substitute will be on every single mega gengar set I will amend this to Pursuit Checks. But the ability to kill (or force out having them lost at least 25% of their hp) mega gengar upon being put in is undeniable. Granted this requires you to do it the turn gengar mega evolves, but this is an opportunity presented every game. Also I don't like the "pick and choose" argument being applied to gengar whilst being ignored by wobbufet. Wobbuffet won't come in on what it can't kill, just like Megar. Farranpoison, Scizor is not actually 2hko'd if specially defensive per my calcs or I believe if it mega's the second turn. And lastly mega gengar has to switch in, taking substantial damage from most of the metagame, or allow something to die, or get volt switched in. During that turn the other player is also allowed to switch. Mega gengar doesn't just magically arrive taking no damage. There is actually skill involved while playing. If you predict their wall coming in and you send in the gengar, props. If they predict you, and send in a pursuit trapper/scarfer/something gengar doesnt want to deal with, props to them. The idea that shadow tag invalidates switching AFTER it is in play is true. The idea that switching for the entire match is invalidated is a complete and utter fallacy. Again, I can change the term I use to whatever pleases you, but my point remains the same. (pursuit threats?)

 

[gregj91]

Nope. Nope nope nope.

Lots of problems on your post. You may have some idea that MGengar can be put in Ubers, but first clean up your points.

First: Why is MGengar running Perish Song without Substitute + Protect? No one does that.

Second: There is no "let's see how well a mon lasts in Ubers." Ubers is a banlist first and a tierlist second. It doesn't matter if a mon does well or not in Ubers. If it is deemed too disruptive to the OU metagame, it's placed in Ubers.

Third: Cool calcs, but if someone is sending out Medicham into MGengar, they're toast. Same with Scizor, if it's hit by a Shadow Ball on the switch-in. And, I have no idea why you think this but the only stat left the same on the turn a mon Mega Evolves is Speed. Defenses are increased accordingly on the turn it MEvos.

After typing MGengar so many times, I feel like I should be calling it McGengar. Might as well, since it's as silly as all the other uninformed things that have been posted here.

First, why Perish Song + Protect? Because of Protect's priority vs. that of Substitute. Substitute does not have priority, in case you want to dodge Bullet Punch, which also has priority(but BP does not have as much priority as protect), or stuff like that, and hope to see the perish count drop to 1 w/ a trapped Mega Gengar counter, and then switch Mega Gengar out either unharmed, or w/ non-KO damage, and see the opponent faint to the perish song...

Second point, I meant "let's see if the set causes a disruption in the OU/uber game". If that set makes Mega gengar stand a chance in ubers, then I believe either Gengar, or if he can't be Uber, Shadow Tag, should be Uber, but then again... maybe I'm wrong and jumping to conclusions too soon...

Third, I am assuming Gengar uses Perish Song on the switch-in turn, and I also was seeing what the people think in terms of their interpretation of calcs mean proving or disproving Mega Gengar's uber capability, in order to make the proof or disproof more clear...

I guess that judging from that post you made, the calculations disproved Mega Gengar uber capability... now I sure wish I could change vote...

 

[Lord Disick]

If he has free HP he can use Perish Trap again possibly. And when I run Perish Song, you can run Shadow Ball / Perish Song / Substitute / Protect. And now you can spam Shadow Ball and at least do some more damage. But it really doesn't matter either way, because now the way is open for my sweeper to rip apart your team.

Once it fulfills its role to kill a wall or hindrance, it is okay for Mega Gengar to die. IDC about the ghost anymore, because NOW I CAN SWEEP YOU!

What your describing is a wall breaker...there are countless terrific ones of them in the meta already and just because mega gengar does it very well does not make it ban worthy. That set is also very easy to recognize so people can play around it

 

[Lord Disick]

Actually a lot of stall teams don't run a scarf user, which is Gengar's biggest killer. While priority is a big thing this Gen, I'll admit, that opens the way for tanky/stall teams to grow and flourish due to priorities lack of damage. But with things like Mega Gengar around it disrupts the growth of the stall game in Gen 6.

Reuniclus is the ultimate stall team check and does it even better than mega gengar, and it sits comfortably in OU

 

[Halcyon.]

What your describing is a wall breaker...there are countless terrific ones of them in the meta already and just because mega gengar does it very well does not make it ban worthy. That set is also very easy to recognize so people can play around it

Wall breakers rely on prediction and good mixed attacking stats to lure in and KO walls so your teammates can sweep, but they are not even close to as reliable as Shadow Tag. A good team with Mega Gengar is like DragMag on steroids. Or are you saying Hydreigon is comparable to Mega Gengar?

 

[farranpoison]

I'm not directly comparing them, not even remotely. They're different roles with different moves typing and abilities. However, I am comparing them in the matter of strength and how well they do their jobs. Kyurem B was thought to have so much power and such great (albeit not varied) moves available to it that it was too strong for OU. Gengarite brings a similarly high level of power with a similarly great movepool.

As far as counters: This is why I'm speaking to them as far as only pursuit counters. If you assume substitute will be on every single mega gengar set I will amend this to Pursuit Checks. But the ability to kill (or force out having them lost at least 25% of their hp) mega gengar upon being put in is undeniable. Granted this requires you to do it the turn gengar mega evolves, but this is an opportunity presented every game. Also I don't like the "pick and choose" argument being applied to gengar whilst being ignored by wobbufet. Wobbuffet won't come in on what it can't kill, just like Megar. Farranpoison, Scizor is not actually 2hko'd if specially defensive per my calcs or I believe if it mega's the second turn. And lastly mega gengar has to switch in, taking substantial damage from most of the metagame, or allow something to die, or get volt switched in. During that turn the other player is also allowed to switch. Mega gengar doesn't just magically arrive taking no damage. There is actually skill involved while playing. If you predict their wall coming in and you send in the gengar, props. If they predict you, and send in a pursuit trapper/scarfer/something gengar doesnt want to deal with, props to them. The idea that shadow tag invalidates switching AFTER it is in play is true. The idea that switching for the entire match is invalidated is a complete and utter fallacy. Again, I can change the term I use to whatever pleases you, but my point remains the same. (pursuit threats?)

Sigh.

Who runs Specially Defensive Scizor. Why. Whyyyyyyyyy. Ok, fine.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 69-82 (38.9 - 46.3%)

Seems reasonable enough. What about HP Fire?

252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 140-168 (79 - 94.9%)

Also doesn't OHKO, but still 2HKO. But let's pretend if Gengar wasn't running HP Fire. So what happens if this Scizor attacks McGengar who for some reason isn't using Substitute as it is switching out?

0 Atk Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 90-108 (66.1 - 79.4%)

Ok. Choice Band?

0 Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 136-162 (100 - 119.1%)

Impressive. You have now maimed or killed MGengar with your unorthodox Scizor. Now it is useless for anything else. BECAUSE NO ONE RUNS SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE SCIZOR. It's a waste of a Pokemon slot.

About your other posts.

Yes, MGengar has to switch in... or it doesn't. Revenge killing? Voltturn? There are so many ways to easily get MGengar in without risking its health. And once it's in, job's done. You've just lost a mon, and you couldn't do anything about it. Sure, again, you can switch in on MGengar on the turn it MEvos. So? You send in your check, MGengar goes "lolbye" and now it's out and you couldn't do squat. Pursuiters? We've already been over this. Once. You have one chance. That's it. And if MGengar is running Substitute, nope. Or hell, it can even run Destiny Bond and now you've lost your trapper. Pursuit users threaten MGengar on the first turn only. And that's not even guaranteed.

"The idea that switching for the entire match is invalidated is a complete and utter fallacy." When it comes to MGengar, no, no it is not. Sure, you can switch other mons if MGengar's not in. But yo, revenge killing, voltturn, whatever. Once Big Mac is on the field, you can't switch. We've already established that MGengar is the best revenge killer in the game. And if it's out to kill walls, yeah, it can switch into them without much harm. No one with a brain will switch MGengar into an offensive mon. Again, revenge killing. You can't do anything about it.

Wobbuffet? Wobby is so bad it's not even funny compared to MGengar. It has about 5 moves to choose from and has to take damage if it wants to kill something. Its Destiny Bond is also slow as shit.

You keep talking about Kyurem-B. Sure, it's got lots of options just like Big Mac. Yes, they do different jobs. Now imagine that you couldn't switch out of Kyurem-B. Still think it'd be in OU?

Nothing you have said proves anything against the Big Mac.

First, why Perish Song + Protect? Because of Protect's priority vs. that of Substitute. Substitute does not have priority, in case you want to dodge Bullet Punch, which also has priority(but BP does not have as much priority as protect), or stuff like that, and hope to see the perish count drop to 1 w/ a trapped Mega Gengar counter, and then switch Mega Gengar out either unharmed, or w/ non-KO damage, and see the opponent faint to the perish song...

Second point, I meant "let's see if the set causes a disruption in the OU/uber game". If that set makes Mega gengar stand a chance in ubers, then I believe either Gengar, or if he can't be Uber, Shadow Tag, should be Uber, but then again... maybe I'm wrong and jumping to conclusions too soon...

Third, I am assuming Gengar uses Perish Song on the switch-in turn, and I also was seeing what the people think in terms of their interpretation of calcs mean proving or disproving Mega Gengar's uber capability, in order to make the proof or disproof more clear...

I guess that judging from that post you made, the calculations disproved Mega Gengar uber capability... now I sure wish I could change vote...

If you're running Perish Song, you have to run Protect/Substitute. First, Perish. Second, Protect. Third, Sub, Fourth, Switch out and the opponent is dead. Who cares about priority when MGengar has 130 Speed? And who the fuck is going to Perish trap a priority user. We are assuming that McGengar users are people with brains, not invalids.

Reuniclus is the ultimate stall team check and does it even better than mega gengar, and it sits comfortably in OU

Hahahahahaha. I like you. You're a funny guy.

You can switch out of Reuniclus. You can't switch out of McGengar.

 

[Lord Disick]

Wall breakers rely on prediction and good mixed attacking stats to lure in and KO walls so your teammates can sweep, but they are not even close to as reliable as Shadow Tag. A good team with Mega Gengar is like DragMag on steroids. Or are you saying Hydreigon is comparable to Mega Gengar?

How can u say mega gengar should be banned because he can trap pokes with shadow tag stall with sub/protect when wobba is bulkier and can do the same thing and is BL2? Yes, gengar can deal out good damage with stab shadow ball and has a fast sub but that's ALL that set of mega gengar has going over something like wobba which does not make it ban worthy

 

[farranpoison]

How can u say mega gengar should be banned because he can trap pokes with shadow tag stall with sub/protect when wobba is bulkier and can do the same thing and is BL2? Yes, gengar can deal out good damage with stab shadow ball and has a fast sub but that's ALL that set of mega gengar has going over something like wobba which does not make it ban worthy

Yo, funny guy. Wobb has 5 moves. It can only kill things by taking damage. Also, it is slow as shit and has a terrible Psychic Typing.

Mega Gengar, Big Mac himself, lord of all Shadow Tags, has a ton of moves to use. Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Sludge Bomb, HP, Protect, Sub, DB, Perish, the list goes on and on. He can attack and kill things first with his 170 SpA and his 130 Speed. His typing is amazing, giving him immunities to Fighting and Normal, and resistances to Poison, Grass, Bug, and Fairy. Wobby is NOWHERE NEAR McGengar's level.

 

[Lord Disick]

Sigh.

Who runs Specially Defensive Scizor. Why. Whyyyyyyyyy. Ok, fine.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 69-82 (38.9 - 46.3%)

Seems reasonable enough. What about HP Fire?

252 SpA Mega Gengar Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 140-168 (79 - 94.9%)

Also doesn't OHKO, but still 2HKO. But let's pretend if Gengar wasn't running HP Fire. So what happens if this Scizor attacks McGengar who for some reason isn't using Substitute as it is switching out?

0 Atk Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 90-108 (66.1 - 79.4%)

Ok. Choice Band?

0 Atk Choice Band Scizor Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 136-162 (100 - 119.1%)

Impressive. You have now maimed or killed MGengar with your unorthodox Scizor. Now it is useless for anything else. BECAUSE NO ONE RUNS SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE SCIZOR. It's a waste of a Pokemon slot.

About your other posts.

Yes, MGengar has to switch in... or it doesn't. Revenge killing? Voltturn? There are so many ways to easily get MGengar in without risking its health. And once it's in, job's done. You've just lost a mon, and you couldn't do anything about it. Sure, again, you can switch in on MGengar on the turn it MEvos. So? You send in your check, MGengar goes "lolbye" and now it's out and you couldn't do squat. Pursuiters? We've already been over this. Once. You have one chance. That's it. And if MGengar is running Substitute, nope. Or hell, it can even run Destiny Bond and now you've lost your trapper. Pursuit users threaten MGengar on the first turn only. And that's not even guaranteed.

"The idea that switching for the entire match is invalidated is a complete and utter fallacy." When it comes to MGengar, no, no it is not. Sure, you can switch other mons if MGengar's not in. But yo, revenge killing, voltturn, whatever. Once Big Mac is on the field, you can't switch. We've already established that MGengar is the best revenge killer in the game. And if it's out to kill walls, yeah, it can switch into them without much harm. No one with a brain will switch MGengar into an offensive mon. Again, revenge killing. You can't do anything about it.

Wobbuffet? Wobby is so bad it's not even funny compared to MGengar. It has about 5 moves to choose from and has to take damage if it wants to kill something. Its Destiny Bond is also slow as shit.

You keep talking about Kyurem-B. Sure, it's got lots of options just like Big Mac. Yes, they do different jobs. Now imagine that you couldn't switch out of Kyurem-B. Still think it'd be in OU?

Nothing you have said proves anything against the Big Mac.


If you're running Perish Song, you have to run Protect/Substitute. First, Perish. Second, Protect. Third, Sub, Fourth, Switch out and the opponent is dead. Who cares about priority when MGengar has 130 Speed? And who the fuck is going to Perish trap a priority user. We are assuming that McGengar users are people with brains, not invalids.

Hahahahahaha. I like you. You're a funny guy.

You can switch out of Reuniclus. You can't switch out of McGengar.

Reuniclus and gengar have similar damage outputs when u factor life orb. So that is out of the question for this arguement. Reuniclus also has higher bulk than mega gengar AND takes no passive damage. Against a stall team this is huge. Gengar takes spikes, rocks and possible weather damage + damage from the other pokemon (yes stall teams pokemon can still hurt yours) so overall, clearly reuniclus is superior against stall teams

Yo, funny guy. Wobb has 5 moves. It can only kill things by taking damage. Also, it is slow as shit and has a terrible Psychic Typing.

Mega Gengar, Big Mac himself, lord of all Shadow Tags, has a ton of moves to use. Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, Sludge Bomb, HP, Protect, Sub, DB, Perish, the list goes on and on. He can attack and kill things first with his 170 SpA and his 130 Speed. His typing is amazing, giving him immunities to Fighting and Normal, and resistances to Poison, Grass, Bug, and Fairy. Wobby is NOWHERE NEAR McGengar's level.

As a trapper, he is at LEAST very close. Also, u list ALL these moves for mega gengar, when he can only run 4. And since when does the shadow tag trap stall set run all those attacks anyway? U aren't making sense

 

[farranpoison]

Reuniclus and gengar have similar damage outputs when u factor life orb. So that is out of the question for this arguement. Reuniclus also has higher bulk than mega gengar AND takes no passive damage. Against a stall team this is huge. Gengar takes spikes, rocks and possible weather damage + damage from the other pokemon (yes stall teams pokemon can still hurt yours) so overall, clearly reuniclus is superior against stall teams

Reuniclus is slow as shit, and often has to take hits before it can hit back. McGengar can outspeed the majority of the metagame and comfortably 2HKO anything it can kill. Stall teams can also switch out of Reuniclus if they don't want to lose a specific wall. Your Ferrothorn threatened by Reuniclus Focus Blast/HP Fire? Bye, see ya later Reuniclus. Ferrothorn threatened by Big Mac? Switch ou- oh shit, Shadow Tag. Nice knowing you Ferrothorn. Against Stall teams, where switching is pretty much their whole deal, the ability of McGengar to reliably trap and kill any wall it is able to kill will put huge holes in Stall's defenses and shut it down immediately.

As a trapper, he is at LEAST very close. Also, u list ALL these moves for mega gengar, when he can only run 4. And since when does the shadow tag trap stall set run all those attacks anyway? U aren't making sense

You don't understand how McGengar works, do you? how about reading all the posts about what MGengar does? It brings a moveset tailored to beat anything its teammates need it to. Your team hate Skarmory? Bring Thunderbolt. Hate Ferrothorn? Focus Blast or HP Fire. And fyi, Perish Trap isn't even the best McGengar set at all.

Again, Wobby has to take damage to kill anything. Big Mac, with his beefy 170 SpA and his scrumptious 130 Speed, doesn't even need to take a hit to kill something weakened.


DANCE! DANCE FOR MY ENTERTAINMENT!

 

[dw0914]

For example, Talonflame only needs Rotom-W removed before trying to sweep, Salamence only needs Fairies and some Steels removed first, etc. (...) there won't be that many teams that have more than one or two mons that can stop your sweeper, and a good sweeper only has ~3-4 mons in OU that can reliably stop its sweep.

This seems to be the lynchpin of the argument that M-Gengar deserves a quick ban, in a lot of the cases. For starters, this isn't the kind of thing that can be ascertained on paper for a new generation prior to significant playtesting. The mere use of the term "in OU" calls back to either Gen 5 tiers (clearly off point) or calls forward to the expressly off-topic speculation about which mons will be OU in Gen 6. Never mind that the specific examples fall short too (TTar, among others, and hell, even Barbaracle can stand in the way of a standard Talonflame). I'm not sure how some players build teams, but if M-Gengar is too powerful because it can trap and kill a single Pokémon which somehow guarantees victory, then I'd question the abilities of whomever built a team that hinges on a single mon.

 

[AOPSUser]

This seems to be the lynchpin of the argument that M-Gengar deserves a quick ban, in a lot of the cases. For starters, this isn't the kind of thing that can be ascertained on paper for a new generation prior to significant playtesting. The mere use of the term "in OU" calls back to either Gen 5 tiers (clearly off point) or calls forward to the expressly off-topic speculation about which mons will be OU in Gen 6. Never mind that the specific examples fall short too (TTar, among others, and hell, even Barbaracle can stand in the way of a standard Talonflame). I'm not sure how some players build teams, but if M-Gengar is too powerful because it can trap and kill a single Pokémon which somehow guarantees victory, then I'd question the abilities of whomever built a team that hinges on a single mon.

So your Barbaracle is surviving my Gengar's Focus Blast?

Also it doesn't matter which sweeper, as long as it is a good one. Mega Gengar can even work alongside stuff like DD Altaria pretty well since it eliminates Fairies, although you probably shouldn't be using Altaria in OU.

Unless your sweeper needs Tyranitar or Goodra gone, in which case you can use something else, like Dugtrio for TTar.

 

[SpaceFlare]

So your Barbaracle is surviving my Gengar's Focus Blast?

Also it doesn't matter which sweeper, as long as it is a good one. Mega Gengar can even work alongside stuff like DD Altaria pretty well since it eliminates Fairies, although you probably shouldn't be using Altaria in OU.

Unless your sweeper needs Tyranitar or Goodra gone, in which case you can use something else, like Dugtrio for TTar.

Of course, Gengar can take down both of those with Destiny Bond once it's done taking out whatever else it needs to.

I take back what I said earlier about Perish Trapping being his best set. A hyper offense setup with a Gengar with D-Bond and 3 attacks might be the best. His wide array of attacking moves also lets you pick appropriate coverage moves to take out whatever stops your sweeper.

 

[SansNickel]

I've had much success with a Tbolt/Shadow ball/Sludge Bomb/Destiny Bond set to take out what i need taken down (skarm, gyarados, etc.) When played correctly, destiny bond almost always can take down a Mega Kanga which is also a major threat in the current meta.

As SpaceFlare said, 3 attacks + DB is pretty great right now.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Oh boy, this has turned into such a can of worms it's ridiculous. I mean, I'm on the side for removing the Gengarite, but I can see where both sides are coming from. I'm just saying that we dont need to go back and forth between stuff that's already been said. To sum it up:

1.You can't counter MGengar, or any Shadow Tag user, due to not being able to switch. Shadow Taggers can only be CHECKED, as a Counter is something that can come in and force the Pokemon in question out, but good luck sending something in when Shadow Tags up.

2. Pursuit Hurts Mega Gengar, but there's about three notable Pursuiters at the moment, being Scizor and Tyranitar. Scizor is maimed by HP Fire unless it's running a unorthodox EV Spread while Focus Blast will hurt cause you know, 170 Sp. Atk + x4 Fighting Weakness, that's still gonna sting. Plus, if Gengar stays in, which if your Running a Destiny Bond Set Gengar has no quams about, Pursuit is a 40 BP move, really, Gengar just wants one thing. Kill Stuff to help his Buddies Kill stuff. Yes, you may have killed MGengar, but you lost your Scizor or Tyranitar in the process.

Also, while this is just me, regardless of whether you're for ban or against ban, try to keep your spelling at least decent. You make a much more compelling argument when your post dosen't look like jibberish.
Anyway, I feel that unless they're gonna be intelligent discussion, there's no point of this thread being alive, yes, Good Points were made, but those good points both against and for the Banning of Gengarite were made 10 Pages ago and now we're just repeating ourselfs and it really isn't getting anyone anywhere, so unless we can intelligently discuss why Gengarite should or should not be banned, I feel like this thread needs to have the plug pulled.

 

[Ajwf]

As the first logical and reasonable post I have seen in several pages, I'd like to respond to it.

Common Pursuit trappers:
TTar- Viable enough. No argument there, but you do have to dedicate him as such. He really can't afford max attack as a pursuit trapper for gar if he suspects to take a shot, just because AV also removes his ability to have mediocre recovery via leftovers.
Scizor- Probably the single best option. It becomes a game of prediction fest if you're banded, so you probably have to run a LO set...
Honchkrow- Meh. I don't much like this option. Unless the meta adjusts to allow Honchcrow into OU, I'd argue he's a form of centralization to gar.
Heracross- Yeah, this is definitely one I wouldn't consider ever (mostly because I didn't know Heracross could successfully use pursuit even after being in UU for months). Considering cross is scarf or nothing (occasionally that speed berry, too).
Metagross- I do dislike this choice most of all because Metagross isn't going to threaten mega gengar out. Maybe it threatens EQ but I think you'd either go shadow ball or being weak enough, go dbond. Really, it is selective that metagross would work.
Bisharp- Even a scarf set is outsped by Mega gengar by 1 point... And that's going to hurt. Granted, he's better than metagross for this option.

I'm rather surprised you didn't mention spiritomb, only getting hit hard by dazzling gleam.

Role as support:
He can unquestionably deal with most walls, but there are certain threats to sweepers he is not guarunteed to deal with, just by their nature. Things like sash users and scarf revenge killers are not necessarily things gengar can deal with. He can clear out gliscors/chanseys/insert wall here, but revenge killers are harder for him to deal with just by their nature. If gengar takes out the opposing wall, only for your salamence/dragonite/etc to be met with scarfed garchomp outrage, gengar will not be able to do anything about it, as it does not outspeed and can not actually switch into that. That said he does outspeed just about everything not scarfed, so he is still a brutally strong support and quite possibly the best wall breaker in the game.

Of course, sashes short of kazam have to worry about any passive damage. Some revenge killers can get him, but if he hasn't concluded his job, he may just switch out bar pursuit (which is why pursuit is such a great point of emphasis in conversation).

Safe switches: (added note: While this was mainly talking about when GENGAR could come in, I guess this works?)
There are several mons that can switch in on gengar safely and incredibly effectively, though most carry assault vest.

Noteably Assault vest escavalier completely and utterly destroys gengar, as it carries a deadly ohko pursuit (if switching, 2hko if not), an OHKO iron head (chance before rocks, guarunteed after rocks), and typing that takes neutral at best from gengars entire movepool barring HP fire which is usually forgone for stronger coverage moves. While this does in fact fall under over centralization it deserves note here because of how effective this mon is.

252+spdef Goodra requires 4 hits from dazzling gleam to go down (even after rocks), while 3hkoing gengar with uninvested dragon pulse. It can also run lefties for less spdef investment or chesto resto or even rain rest (with hydration). Goodra has lots of normal, viable options that happen to counter gengar pretty hard. This is noteable because it is a special wall gengar can not break without the perish set, and the hit it will take getting off perish song is substantial (40-47% uninvested). Assault vest goodra (with 0 spdef) can handle 4 full hits of dazzling gleam with a chance to survive (guarunteed 4hko after rocks though), while 2hkoing gengar. Two hits. That is a lot of pain, even for the perish set (54-64%) that's enough to basically decomission gengar with any sort of priority (barring mach punch) as a threat. Again, goodra does die to the perish set, but does significant damage and can handle non perish sets stupidly well (though destiny bond is an issue for the assault vest set).

Goodra has been name dropped a lot. However, I haven't enough experience with the derp dragon to tell what it can do. Tried hydration restdance goodra, but that's been it. However, is it not generally running a full SpA regiment?

Prankster users can also switch in safely, depending on the moveset. Sableye probably being the best one, because like escavalier it can handle any of gengars standard moves neutrally, and unlike most mons can afford to run 252hp and 252+spdef on a standard set, due to will o wisp basically giving it +2 defense. Priority taunt and mean look are both extremely good against gengar, allowing sableye to fully neuter gengar (unless I'm mistaken and mean look no longer applies to gengar due to ghost mechanics change, which is entirely possible), along with priority recover if the gengar isnt carrying sludge wave or sludge bomb to just wall out the gengar with will-o-wisp burn or night shade. Edit: Sableye does get destroyed by dazzling gleam, sorry for not catching that earlier.

Meh, what does it do with prankster besides taunt/willowisp? To attack, sableye is REALLY slow...

I don't have time to cover the rest of the points you brought up at the moment, but I will try to address them later today.

I kind of snipped most of your reasoning in the first part just because they could link back through to your post and I wanted to respond in post. As always, my response is in bold.

I'm also skipping other posts with a lot of stupid arguments that have only been echoed in every post so far.

Just to comment since I've seen this sort of thing said many times, this makes the potentially faulty assumption that the Gen 6 metagame won't move toward some sort of bulkier game. Suppose I'm running a bulkier lineup, and your sweeper might fear two Pokémon on my team. If M-Gengar can only take out one of them (and even that can depend on some prediction, at times), it would be a stretch to call that worthy of a quick ban.

A.) Unless kan and multiple others fall to ubers, bulky offense and especially stall will not prosper. The ultimate bulky pokemon, mega-chomp, people are saying simply isn't any good... Well, I'm not sure anyone other than I have ever been under siege from that thing, but it is completely lethal. Beyond lethal. But in a fast meta game, most people don't even care...
B.) Arguably, mega kan can fill a wallbreaker role to pokemon it isn't designated to... it has enough attack to take care of most walls, and has the added benefit of bulky pokemon going physically defensive to counter mega luc/kan/pinsir/chomp/zardx/mawile... This list of physical threats currently far outweigh the special ones. Hell, check out my stall team's original form, it ran 5 physical walls.

I dont think people seem to understand the point I am trying to get across, so I will stop posting after this. To clarify, I am not saying that gengar is trying to sweep at all. I don't believe that this is its purpose. I fully understand that gengar is used to trap potential threats to teamates. All I am trying to say is that the opposing trapped pokemon will not splash about while you perish trap it and does not take out many counters to sweepers with attacking sets. It has to choose what threats it enables itself to take out. The threats that gengar tries to take out are not in any way sitting ducks. They can fight back until one side or the other is victorious. While gengar is generally victorious, it doesnt always have the correct tools to take out one of the bigger threats to the team. This makes gengar IMO less of a brokenmon. Also, having gengar take out a blissey to open up a special sweep is great and all, but most upper level players will likely have at least two checks to every pokemon on your team. Taking out a blissey for your alakazam is useless if talonflame is running lose. Also, I dont believe that most of the top OU mons currently care about gengar at all as I mentioned in my original post. This is what I have been sayig. I have no idea how any of you have come to the conclusion of me sweeping with gengar unless I misworded something.I apologize if i did. Im very sorry that my passion to keep mons like gengar from quick ban started to derail the thread. Carry on.

Unfortunately, this post had some incredibly fault arguments.

1) If gar gets the pokemon he is MEANT TO TRAP, I doubt anyone here is going to argue he against him killing it. Anyone planning to use him in such a way will at least have checked to make sure his damage roles are going to be enough to eliminate that threat. I understand in Gliscor's case that this may seem different, but it isn't. Gliscor is outsped and OHKO'd by HP ice. If gengar was meant to take Gliscor, gliscor will not win. This is the same for any threat gengar has been designed for. He may take damage, but it won't be much if he's a designed killer for them. His set will be suited to OHKO the opponent or take minimal damage. If he couldn't do that, why would he be a trapper for that pokemon (Again, gar is not the ONLY trapper, simply the one that traps everything bar ghost, making him the most versatile and deadliest). If it didn't have the tools, then you lack the foresight/planning to set up your sweep...

2.) I had to bold one sentence that exemplifies exactly what is wrong with your argument. "Most upper level player will have two checks to every pokemon on a team". DEAD. WRONG. I know probably half of the top 50's teams inside and out (We counter team, trust me...) and we still haven't found the answer to countering every pokemon in the game. Your post suggests that just because we're top ladder players (or even a different group are top battlers) that somehow in six pokemon, we've cracked the formula to not only cover every pokemon in OU, but to cover it twice. I said earlier that there were 60+ OU pokemon last gen, I think. This gen, there will probably be closer to 70+. That means, using only OU pokemon as a sample size, that we would have to have everyone pokemon on our team check 23.3 pokemon. Even if every pokemon has only just one check on your team, you're still asking if each of my pokemon can check 11.6 from meta. The answer is no. My team, nor any other top 50 team that I know of, can do that. Sure, a lot of pokemon can outspeed a bunch of threats, but speed tiers are not checks.

Alright, here goes part#2:

A new category I thought I'd add here in my second half of my response is U-turners/Volt Switchers, Several of which are incredibly prevalent in the metagame.

Volt Turners:
Genesect. Genesect is an extremely fast pokemon that generally carries a scarf and always carries u-turn. Genesect is a threat to a lot of sweeps, between being scarfed, having Download, and having incredible coverage. It can both revenge kill and pivot really well, and can cause problems for gengar, who is unable to switch in on any of its moves and can not kill it in a 1v1 scenario because genesect can u-turn before gengar even attacks (and the u-turn itself is not negligible with gengars defenses). Genesect may or may not be broken, but he is currently in the metagame and is therefore fair game to discuss as a problem, even if not technically a counter. Genesect is incredibly popular for entirely other reasons than gengar existing, and so doesn't contribute to overcentralization.
Rotom. Rotom-W specifically. Rotoms of every nature and every moveset run rampant in the metagame currently. It is a prime volt switcher, has a hard hitting hydro pump, and has access to trickscarf shenanigans, allowing it to both outspeed and neutar gengar, while its natural bulk (often invested) allows it to take at least one if not several hits from gengar, depending on the exact set of the rotom itself. Without scarf it volt switches slower than gengar, allowing a free switch in (with a bit of damage) to whatever you need. Being a slow turner as opposed to a fast turner like genesect, instead of saving itself, it allows a teammate to come in completely unscathed against gengar, which bypasses shadow tag almost entirely. Volt switch being on every rotom set in the metagame, this does not contribute to overcentralization, either.
Scizor. While scizor can not take two hits from gengar if scizor isnt specially defensive, scizor is another slow turner that has the added benefits of pursuit and bullet punch, two nightmares of gengar already stated in the first half of my response. Again, scizor is incredibly popular with or without mega gengar, and pursuit, bullet punch, and u-turn are all ou staples and nothing out of the ordinary.
Thundurus. Thundurus currently not being uber is a viable and powerful volt switcher that handles mega gengar incredibly well between priority taunt and volt switch, along with thunder wave at priority allowing it to cripple mega gengar for the entirety of the match setting it to 1/4 the speed it should have, allowing basically anything to outspeed it, shutting down its destiny bond and killing potential. These moves are nothing out of the ordinary on Thundurus, and he is currently ou, like genesect, and is so available for use and a valid and non-gengar dependant option.
Jolteon. Not the sturdiest of users, but with the same base speed as mega gengar and a strong, strong, attack able to threaten gengar before it mega's and speed tying mega gengar for the volt switch or even the attack (specs thunderbolt with a solid chance to ohko after rocks, volt switch doing a solid 61-72%). Gengar can noteably can not ohko jolteon, requiring two shots from either of his stabs, allowing jolteon to win any hard 1v1s against gengar not already mega'd and being a coiflip for an already mega'd gengar. Jolteon is OU, and these moves are standard, as is specs/life orb, life orb losing out on the ohko thunderbolt. Again, nothing out of the ordinary, standard set.
Crowbat is another noteable u-turner, but is oneshot by thunderbolt (56% chance, guarunteed after rocks). Crowbat does have base 130speed, tying mega gengar, and has both taunt and u-turn along with a choice band set that DOES ohko gengar if it wins the speed tie (using brave bird, 100% guarunteed ohko). This is another coinflip scenario (against the choice band set) but the odds are stacked in crowbats favor, with 50% chance for megar to go first and 56% chance to get the ohko, crowbat has an astounding 74% chance to win that matchup should gengar decide to stay. Again, these are standard moves, albeit in gen5 uu, but defog access has boosted his use in gen6.
Gliscor has u-turn, and is a slow turner (against gengar), but cant switch into gengar, as it does get 2hko'd, and generally does not run u-turn. However as a popular ou mon that doesnt get ohko'd it deserves a mention.
Landorus-T has a powerful u-turn and does require 2 hits, also having a commonplace scarf set can threaten to kill a mega'd gengar with eqarthquake or be a fast-turn pivot, along with stone edge should gengar not mega to avoid the eq. Common ou sets, common moves, threat to gengar and a solid u-turn user.

Defintion of a support/comparisions:
While gengar does fit the uber support role better than any other mon in ou so far, it is a fresh metagame and so may develop more, but as of yet gengar is the best candidate. However, a lot of more "traditional" supports have other options to contribute to the team, such as hazard removal, wish support, boost passing and status spreading. Gengar can not do these things, but most supports can't do what he does, he's got his own niche currently in the ou metagame, and generally benefits from an additional support mon on his team to help clear hazards which make gengar far less useful.

Deterrents to mega gengar:
Stealth rocks. Stealth rocks are gengars biggest enemy so far, as he needs to switch out and in at least once generally to do his job. Stealth rock damage allows many mons to nail a guarunteed ohko where it wasnt guarunteed before, put him in priority range if it's his second or futher time switching in, and generally just causes him to suffer, as gengar wants that hp to take *a* hit so he can clear his target, or to get up a sub, potentially more than one if he is forced out (sub blocking a pursuit trapper has been brought up in this thread and so I'm making it relevant here).
Status. Being paralyzed is incredibly bad for gengar, and often stops him from doing his job properly. Users like Klefki and Tornadus can paralyze him before he strikes them, allowing them to use futher moves (setting up screens or spikes in the case of klefki, or even swagger foul play shenanigans, and taunting or volt switching to something else in the case of thundurus) before leaving or going down (or even forcing gengar out). a paralyzed gengar can not even destiny bond sac itself and so stops perfoming its job as anything except maybe a perish trapper vs walls that don't hit back (blissey, infestation goodra, etc).
These two deterrents lead to another point, gengar is a support mon who can be reliant on another support mon. This either limits gengars performance or the way you build your team. While not necessarily strictly a con, this does restrict the way he is used in a lot of cases.
Prankster shenanigans. Gengar being a special attacker is quite vulnerable to the likes of t-wave swagger, as he can not really function, and getting lucky through confusion doesn't achieve all that much against most prankster users. Also having a weakness to foul play compounds the strength of users like klefki and Liepard against gengar. While neither of these really wants to switch in, they can both cripple mega gengar severely.
Choice users. Banded priority and scarfers are an issue for mega gengar, as his support role is generally to remove obstacles to a sweep, these revenge killer type pokemon can both handle the mon they would come in to stop and mega gengar. Things like scarfchomp, genesect, lando-T, banded scizor, banded azumaril, banded metagross do significant amounts of damage to gengar, meaning it cant switch in without being 2hkod before making a move, and it cant 1v1 the majority of these revenge killers. That being said, Gengar's job isn't really to take these mons on. Gengar can't really deal with them, though, and so it is a deterrent to using it as your answer to sweeper stoppers, requiring additional team mates to perform that job instead. I make this point to dispute all the "Gengar kills your wall and then sweeper x, y or z kill you." That kind of argument has been used a lot and ignores the commonality of revenge killers.

Over centralization:
While this may or may not be an issue, we don't have recent usage statistics to make solid arguments to this either way. We can, however, safely say that the presence of gengar must be considered with every team. That said, the same is true of Scizor, Genesect, Garchomp, Mega Kangkaskhan, Talonflame, Baton Pass Leads, etc, etc, etc. Any strong pokemon or pokemon type should be considered while building a team. You can't just arbitrarily jam pokemon together and expect the team to do well. Good teams have answers to everything, or at least answers to everything they need to answer- that's what makes them good.

Playstyle:
Again, with the freshness of the metagame and lack of recent usage statistics, we are limited to personal experiences on the ladder, which don't really hold much water as even someone who has played 100+ games has only seen a tiny fraction of the metagame. I can not comment on this with any amount of authority until smogon puts up more usage stats.

I don't feel like deleting these arguments, so I'll just use the same headings... (Damn, this is going to be a really long post because I also plan to make a response to Zracknel's...)

VoltTurners:

Again, one of those things I thought would be more focused on helping mega gengar trap (I run a rotom-w on my gar team, have been trying to get a few logs of him, will explain my trails/tribulations later on). However, they do also present a legitimate escape. I'll talk of some of them from both angles but most in terms specifically to fleeing/checking gengar.

Genesect is, of course, incredibly deadly. Probably deadly enough to break a gengar sub. However, gengar 4x resists so uturn is only an escape option. I would bet that (as I know gen's scarf will outspeed) that he could kill gar 1v1, and if gar switches, he gains momentum. However, this is assuming gengar comes in on genesect... (Suggests HP fire, I guess...). In case he does come in, you probably would want to escape and could get out scot free due to speed.

Scizor probably won't be uturning on gar. Obviously, as established, his choices are bullet punching or pursuit trapping, and he has no real reason to get out unless you absolutely know you can't OHKO (full health) and he's running HP fire... Unfortunately, scizor is also banded/scarfed generally (especially if you weren't planning on dealing with gar through him. Otherwise, he'd be outsped so pray to god you can get a crit bullet punch if gar comes in on you). As support to mega gengar, I personally feel rotom beats him out. Rotom's dual stabs (plus the typing versatility) threatens/lures more pokemon for gengar to trap.

Rotom-wash benefits greatly from being able to escape. He's slower and can be solidly 2hko'd by shadow ball (physical sets for sure, haven't checked what a special set can do). I am, of course, not including scarf sets completely just because of the current meta not having scarf rotom. Rotom has become bulky and slow, but he can avoid dying to gengar by getting out first turn. Unfortunately, his attacks aren't enough to drop a gengar as he'll probably be running max bulk. That and his main stab is hit/miss makes for him being shaky to stay in. However, as stated above, as trapper switch for gar, he is much more useful. Having a unique typing of electric/___ (Basically whatever) and also being slow enough to go second most of the time (especially if you take out all those speed IVs), he allows to be a perfect trap assist in the same way uturn talonflame was a lure for dugtrio to trap heatran.

Thundrus/Jolteon: One note with Thundy first, paralyze reduces speed to 3/4th the initial. gengar would maintain a fairly swift speed, similar to what it would be after sticky web. But Thundy seems to offer a great check to gengar that would help re-establish momentum. The issue with jolteon is that it is very predictable and will be running spec/scarf. While yes, it will force gar out or cause heavy damage, the predictability can hurt. You could, in theory, lose momentum again via ground pokemon (or normal, if you run shadow ball, which becomes a more legitimate option this gen). I'd argue that specs shadow ball would be the best option and probably the best force out.

Crowbat is only going to be useful for infiltrator, definitely not for Uturn which, against mega gengar, isn't particularly helpful. Probably needs scarf to fulfill that job solidly, though.

Gonna completely skip Gliscor... I still haven't seen it and if gar is gunning for you to be in on glisc, glisc isn't turning out alive.

Lando is far more useful due to that massive EQ he runs. It threatens gar badly, but I still doubt even his uturn would do more than like 20% damage...

Deterrents

Deterrents: Rocks are more a deterrent to a perish set. In best case scenario for gar, he would take roughly 37% damage each perish set, limiting him to two successful traps. However, I'm not sure the effectiveness of rocks vs an attack form of it. Assuming he just switches in and out, gengar could come in 8 times and still have a tad bit of health left. Eight times is more than most pokemon will come in a match (bar stall and semi-stall variants). While they help, it still requires the other player to double switch out when gar comes in to make the best use of those rocks... Well, not much can be done if gengar comes in for a revenge kill scenario.

Statuses are situational. No sleep user outspeeds gengar (but for scarf variants of darkrai and jumpluff/venu under effects of chlorophyll, mind me), toxic is invalid and burn kind of takes on the effect of rocks; it's passive but probably won't stop gengar from doing what he needs to do. That said, a mega gengar that is able to get paralyzed (aka not behind a sub already) is screwed if it does get paralyzed, more or less.

As for mega gengar being one of the few support needing/utalizing support, I wouldn't say that's entirely true. I generally run heal bells out of policy because I hate to have pokemon statused, even if they aren't important. This CAN be a flaw only if that support can't also help the sweeper. Unfortunately, I can't really think of an example where heal bell/wish would just make you completely mad you ever decided to run it... (Maybe when wobb encores you into it and just stalls you out of it?)

Choice users! Well, definitely a great check, but they are a double edged sword, and very dependent on the situation. As I've alluded to, a dedicated counter to mega gengar in scizor probably wants to go LO just because. But, choice users are easily trapped once in. Lure blissey (or any fight weak, I guess), protect and scout, switch to gar if he'll do fine. The issue is, a scarf user probably has to be kept in your back pocket for when you know you'll be facing off against mega gengar and not trapped into a bad move that won't deal well with him. So yes, they fall under a check, or if locked into a move that can kill mega gengar, then maybe a deterrent. Again, without pursuit they don't guarantee that all important kill (And pursuit users shouldn't run scarf :/ ). To your point about revenge killers, I won't dwell to far into that because that more questions if it will get "n" sweeper that Gengar is supporting. But, I think you might just find a lot of people saying "I've got 4 other spots" or they won't have to worry about some revenge killer... Perhaps a sweeper with great speed or resistance to most common forms of priority is their setup... Keldeo/Latios come to mind.

Centralizing and Playstyle

Over centralization:
Good teams will have checks to many threats is how I would word that, over the choice "everything". Now, for a definition of over centralization, it might be good to establish what we'll define this as. I consider this having two counters/one counter and a check/three checks to any one pokemon. Why three checks? Meh, don't play HO much so I just assume three checks to one pokemon would be a bit much. I can tell you that in stall, having two counters is excessive if they are designed counters for a pokemon.

The second form of over centralization is basically having only one pokemon that can counter another, or very few (maybe 6-10 in the game?) that can check it (hyper offense seems to have a lot of leg room for working with checks...). I'd also argue that obscure counters/checks also fall to make a pokemon over centralized. Essentially, when the pool to stop a pokemon is small enough that your options for dealing with it are greatly limited.

Gengar fits both well, but falls into the second better. There aren't too many pokemon to hard counter him, and what does counter him must be adjusted in some fairly obscure ways, or at least sets that otherwise would be considered inferior. LO scizor running pursuit and bullet punch? Most would prefer to run band. But if gengar doesn't retreat, you need a strong move to stab at it. There are counters, but how often would you honestly run max SDef AV ttar otherwise? Maybe ttar, yes, but that set also prefers attack power. (Just fyi, pokemon like kan fit both...)

Playstyle
Out of everyone here, I feel I probably rank in the top amount of having faced mega gengar with a diversity of styles used against him. My top ladder team is bulky offense, I've laddered with a HO sand variant and I currently run a full stall variant that has had so many different versions, I've basically run different teams with it. I've also been using mega gengar in a full trap team and sweeper team. I know that bad players fall to gengar every time (I mean, played against a skilled player, they aren't winning...) and for a good player to have a chance, they have to surprise the mega gengar user (Aka scarf psychic starmie... what the hell was that, I just got out sped by Patrick Star). Good players will hopefully recognize what I'm/they're after and hide it, but that prevents them from using all their pokemon (got one of a smart player hiding his gliscor... still ended badly once I figured out what a lure was...). Unorthodox methods and surprises (aka gimmicks) are the most sure-fired way to foil a mega gengar.

Does it affect playstyle? Take it from a stall user, yes it does. I've lost multiple pokemon because I can't go wish support with chansey without getting perish trapped. They just widdle away at my health and all the time laugh because chansey has no hope of coming in. Mega venusaur is a double switch I have to do to try and lure in mega gengar, and even if it comes in, it will suspect I switched for a reason and leave before I can EQ. I have to immediately recognize and learn my opponent's team as well as he does to understand pre-game what gengar might be after. And that sucks if he has a lot of pokemon that look like sweepers (Aka a conckledurr and latios on the same team can give me grief figuring out of gengar will target chansey or go after slowbro). The surprise element is always there in any game, but I am punished so much more for not knowing my opponent's overall objective pregame. It's a bit hard to express how much of a disadvantage this is, because most people don't bother with that. In a nutshell, in a metagame where information on sets and strategies can help you make better switches and completely wall off pokemon, it is my job to find out some crucial piece of information that only my opponent has before he traps the wall on my team that could stop his sweep.

Onto Zracknel's!

I'm inclined to disagree. I know what you're getting at, but I don't think it's anywhere close to "one of the worst arguments ever." We have two tools with which to make this decision-- our theorymonned knowledge and our actual experiences, so let's not entirely undercut the value of the latter...

There are things that sound absolutely brilliant in theory, but aren't flawless in practice. Wobbuffet was theory-banned during the shoddy battle days even though it seemed like generation 4's offensive threats had caught up to it; there was no statistical data to back up the argument (it wasn't being heavily used) and it was because of a vocal minority that repeatedly painted scenarios of wobbuffet's "unbeatable nature" that it ended up getting the axe.

But really, you had to play optimally to get those kinds of results. You also had to correctly anticipate the moves of your opponent to achieve the best results. The nature of the tools you were using allowed forgiveness from play errors, but at the end of things, player skill was maximizing your results.

I feel like Mega Gengar falls into a similar --although obviously not the same-- kind of camp. Nobody is questioning that Mega Gengar is a very strong tool. But it's a tool that rewards good play on your part and punishes the mistakes your opponent makes-- Yes, you will get into situations when piloting it that you are guaranteed kills if your opponent plays into your hands-- but those guarantees are still play-skill dependent.

You need to account for Mega Gengar in teambuilding. I know others aren't into it, but I'm a huge fan of sticky web, which allows positive-natured, fully invested base 78s to outspeed and get the jump on Mega Gengar and smash its face in, should it switch in grounded. I'm also a huge fan of the mixed, pivot aegislash, who is capable of revenge killing with shadow sneak, but-- more likely-- will punish the opponent's "free" kill, and uses gengar's switch-outs to launch impressively-powered shadow balls and sacred swords at incoming switch ins.

Interplay between megas is something I feel shouldn't be discounted when deciding the fate of Gengarite. As others have mentioned, in choosing gengarite, your are passing up the opportunity to use mega kangaskhan, as well as any other megas which could become topically good. That's a very real cost-- I feel that when we start banning mega stones, we'll be running through quite a few of them because we'll be removing this cost (i.e. "now there's no reason not to use mega kangaskhan, so we have no choice but to ban that"). Since mega stones are a new mechanic, I feel they deserve a bit more time under the microscope, because I'm not convinced we have appropriate respect for some of the teambuilding decisions they require.

It feels true that Mega Gengar is best billed as a team player, who opens the doors for threats to take advantage of the holes it creates. But to do that, you do have to take some teambuilding into account, however minor... Mega Gengar best helps a number of key offensive mons. When you start seeing the same few together, it really drives home the impression that this is a team archetype we're talking about-- that traps and dismantles opponents-- rather than a Blakizen-esque mon that runs the show by itself. We made great strides in generation V to balance what we felt was a major characteristic of competitive play-- infinite weather-- so considering the threat this quickban would have towards other mega pokemon (and maybe you'll laugh, but also the removal of the offensive trap team archetype, if I'm not dumb and that's really a thing) makes me believe that a quickban would be a hasty decision here.

Getting your kill-value up-front is really strong, no question, but other Megas like Kanga deliver value that is greater and while it's not a sure thing, it'd argue it's all-but-guaranteed unless the opponent is packing specific answers.

I think Mega Gengar is insane, massively powerful, and extremely hard to deal with in the right hands. That said, I'm not sure it warrants a quickban.

Thank you for reading.

My Response

On the idea that our two knowledge bases are theorymons and actual experience, I'm hesitant to agree. Very rarely can you trust that actual experience will show the optimal way to play a pokemon. In a game that implements luck to supplement skill (sometimes, it feels like the luck is compensating for my opponents :( ), actual experience can be muddled. Your team compared to theirs has a great deal to do with what our experiences were. The beauty of theorymons is done correctly and eliminating variables irrelevant to the situation (a slow and meticulous process, yes), we are able to establish a more perfect answer. This is mainly because we can develop worse case scenerios and use calcs to find how a pokemon performs. When I look for a wall to a specific pokemon, I use a worst case scenerio clause of how much of a boost that pokemon can get in one turn and then their attack with the best move against me. That way, I can tell the best the pokemon I'm countering can perfom against me. The same applies here, by giving gar worst case and best case scenarios, we have a better understanding of what it does.

While I don't doubt that experience is helpful, for a discussion like this, theorymoning should take precedence especially so early into an undeveloped meta with people not realizing the best way to play mega gengar. We've already labored through a bunch of counters and checks, yet I bet not all of them have been tested by us.

A side note, the vocal minority does not exist here. This is a fairly even draw of people by poll, and slightly more overwhelming towards pro-ban by content in thread. I guess if you wanted to call 30 some votes of 1000+ a minority/majority difference, it is 'technically' true, but only by technicalities of this poll.

On the idea that mega gengar punishes bad play and rewards good play, I completely agree. But, it punished the opponent of mega gengar for otherwise 'decent' plays and destroys them for bad plays. This cannot be said for the user of mega gengar. Decent plays still turn out decently and bad plays turn out as bad plays generally do, but the magnitude of punishment is much less. Bar a pursuit user, mega gengar just retreats again, you shoulder this hit elsewhere and continue on. That's what happens in decent/bad plays that go wrong. But playing mega gengar, you make a decent play and get double switched on, now it looks like you made a terrible play. The reality is much different. A bad play, aka feeding gengar his target, is game-ending where normally you'd just lose a pokemon, whether the one you sent in or a pokemon you foddered in on a switch.

The reward side is much the same. If the player without mega gengar makes a good play, they get the general benefits: momentum, possible KO, maybe even taking out mega gengar. But, should Gengar's user make a good play, or even decent ones on occasion, they are rewarded with a wincon fulfilled every time, maybe even fulfilling all their wincon for that particular game. I don't see how gengar being a multiplier of great plays/not taking more for bad plays for his owner is any fair. It punished the opposition way more than any pokemon does for the plays made. (Some just punish specific styles for being used, aka mega chomp and stall, phazers to baton pass teams and so on)

A sidenote that team building is to account for many threats, but to what extent you must prepare for mega gengar/how to is debatable. I made a post about the styles to approach in my lugia comparison post. Also, sticky web has two popular users, and I by definition would say that if you need sticky web to beat gengar, you have an over centralized meta-game.

The note on the mega interplay and risk/reward of using gengar over others. It should be noted that we are dealing with slightly different roles in any mega, and that I honestly believe that kan will follow suit with gar, though this is a different discussion. Most megas fit some role of offensive threat, with exceptions in gengar, venusaur, blastoise, aggron, perhaps banette and perhaps ampharos. Every other current mega is arguably an offensive threat in some way. Choosing another mega for the sake of choosing a mega is stupid and shouldn't be done. However, yes, you do trade a move slot. But for a designed team, mega gengar is serving such a unique purpose, you aren't going to find something to replace it with in the mega category and nothing in the game that can perform his job better against the diversity of targets.

On not banning Gengar due to being a possible archtype, even if he IS his own archtype, that does not change the fact that he is over powered. Landorus-i and genesect helped flesh out the voltturn archtype to a more full team style, and they may have been the sole reason that style ever took off, but it doesn't change how over powered they were. Nor does an offensive trap team archtype in possible development change the fact that this style with mega gengar is unfair to those playing against someone who 'mastered' it.
On the last quote's comparison to mega kan, I would call that apples to oranges in a time when we're talking about uber support to something that will be eventually tested as an uber sweeper of some sort. Yes, kan establishes more immediate power, however mega gengar will work you towards achieving a wincon. Gengar has much more control over how he plays, whereas kan is just blasting away at walls.

Alright, so far I have succesfully grabbed one decent log, and it wasn't even along the lines of what I was attempting. I wanted a haxorus sweep, and gave some good team support. A quick rundown of the team was gar to take glisc/dragons/skarm, heatran for fairies (ran flash cannon) skarm for rocks/clearing, rotom for pivot, florges for cleric support and hax for sweeping (running dd, eq, outrage, super power). Most of the time, when I'd get a wall crucial to my sweep, the opponent forfeited... In the following replay, the last 7-8 turns really demonstrate how bad I wiffed at setting up Hax as gengar just took four pokemon himself... The game was over (and I was personally hoping conk would kill me so I could sweep with hax) but gengar got the crucial kill on a gliscor when no other poke would've picked him well. A limited example, but so far (as stated previously), I've yet to take a loss working with this team.

One Good log that went oddly...

bigperko joined.

AjTheEpic joined.

Format:
Pokebank OU (beta)

Rated battle

Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep

Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon

Moody Clause: Moody is banned

OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned

Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned

HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages

AjTheEpic's team: Gengar / Haxorus / Skarmory / Heatran / Florges / Rotom-Wash

bigperko's team: Aerodactyl / Trevenant / Conkeldurr / Heatran / Genesect / Gliscor

Battle between bigperko and AjTheEpic started!

bigperko sent out Genesect!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing Genesect's Download raised its Special Attack!

Turn 1

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Genesect used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 33.8% of its health!

Heatran is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 2

bigperko withdrew Genesect!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The power of the opposing Heatran's Fire-type moves rose!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 3

Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Earth Power!

It doesn't affect Rotom-Wash...

Turn 4

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 8% of its health!

Nysyr joined.

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Florges!

Turn 5

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Florges was seeded!

Florges's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 6

Nysyr: lol sitrus curse trev

Florges, come back!

Go! Heatran!

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Aerodactyl!

The opposing Aerodactyl is exerting its pressure!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 7

AjTheEpic: Would've just killed it had he not getten para hax

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Aerodactyl has Mega Evolved into Mega Aerodactyl!

The opposing Aerodactyl used Taunt!

Skarmory fell for the taunt!

Turn 8

The opposing Aerodactyl used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

Skarmory used Brave Bird!

A critical hit! It's not very effective... The opposing Aerodactyl lost 25% of its health!

Skarmory is damaged by recoil!

Turn 9

bigperko withdrew Aerodactyl!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Skarmory used Brave Bird!

It's not very effective... The opposing Heatran lost 10% of its health!

Skarmory is damaged by recoil!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 10

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Pointed stones dug into Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

It's not very effective... Rotom-Wash lost 17.4% of its health!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 11

Rotom-Wash used Hydro Pump!

The opposing Heatran avoided the attack!

The opposing Heatran used Will-O-Wisp!

Rotom-Wash was burned!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by its burn!

Turn 12

Nysyr: no1 has EP on spdef heatran now lol

AjTheEpic: This one does

Nysyr: i love me some balloon tran for them

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Rest!

Rotom-Wash fell asleep!

Rotom-Wash slept and became healthy!

Rotom-Wash ate its Chesto Berry!

Rotom-Wash woke up!

Turn 13

bigperko: too early to use rest there

Rotom-Wash used Will-O-Wisp!

The opposing Trevenant was burned!

The opposing Trevenant ate its Lum Berry!

The opposing Trevenant healed its burn!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Rotom-Wash avoided the attack!

The opposing Trevenant harvested one Lum Berry!

Turn 14

AjTheEpic: Trying to get some logs for mega gengar

Nysyr: oh hes lum rest

Nysyr: lol

AjTheEpic: What the hell is lumrest...

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

A critical hit! It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 14.0% of its health!

AjTheEpic: Why would you run that over sitrus curse?

Nysyr: think chesto rest

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Heatran avoided the attack!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 15

Nysyr: but lum

Nysyr: double leech miss

Nysyr: gg

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The power of the opposing Heatran's Fire-type moves rose!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 16

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Aerodactyl!

Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Pointed stones dug into Rotom-Wash!

Turn 17

bigperko withdrew Aerodactyl!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 9% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 18

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Gliscor!

Heatran used Roar!

Genesect was dragged out!

The opposing Genesect's Download raised its Special Attack!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 19

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Pointed stones dug into Skarmory!

The opposing Genesect used U-turn!

It's not very effective... Skarmory lost 4.5% of its health!

The opposing Genesect is hurt by Skarmory's Rocky Helmet!

The opposing Genesect went back to bigperko!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Turn 20

Skarmory used Defog!

The opposing Trevenant's evasiveness fell!

The pointed stones disappeared from around your team!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Skarmory was seeded!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 21

Skarmory used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Trevenant used Shadow Claw!

Skarmory lost 15.9% of its health!

The opposing Trevenant is hurt by Skarmory's Rocky Helmet!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 22

Skarmory used Roost!

Skarmory regained health!

The opposing Trevenant used Will-O-Wisp!

Skarmory was burned!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Skarmory was hurt by its burn!

Turn 23

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Florges!

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Genesect!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Genesect!

The opposing Genesect's Download raised its Attack!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 24

The opposing Genesect used U-turn!

It's not very effective... Florges lost 17.8% of its health!

The opposing Genesect went back to bigperko!

bigperko sent out Gliscor!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gliscor!

Florges used Wish!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Gliscor's Toxic Orb activated!

The opposing Gliscor was badly poisoned!

Turn 25

bigperko withdrew Gliscor!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Trevenant!

Florges, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Florges's wish came true!

Skarmory was hurt by its burn!

Turn 26

AjTheEpic: I love wish support

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Rotom-Wash was seeded!

Rotom-Wash's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 27

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

A critical hit! It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 15% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Trevenant used Horn Leech!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 4.7% of its health!

Heatran had its energy drained!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 28

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Heatran used Roar!

Conkeldurr was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Conkeldurr!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Conkeldurr restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 29

Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Conkeldurr used Drain Punch!

It's not very effective... Florges lost 18.3% of its health!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 30

bigperko withdrew Conkeldurr!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 31

AjTheEpic: All my teams end up stally

Florges, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Earth Power!

It doesn't affect Rotom-Wash...

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 32

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 10% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Gengar!

Turn 33

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Gengar used Substitute!

Gengar put in a substitute!

Gengar lost 24.8% of its health!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 34

Gengar has Mega Evolved into Mega Gengar!

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing Heatran lost 31% of its health!

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

A critical hit! Gengar's substitute faded!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 35

Gengar, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Will-O-Wisp!

Rotom-Wash was burned!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by its burn!

Turn 36

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Hydro Pump!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 15% of its health!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by its burn!

Turn 37

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 9% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Heatran was seeded!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 38

Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Trevenant used Shadow Claw!

Florges lost 25% of its health!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 39

Florges used Wish!

The opposing Trevenant used Horn Leech!

Florges lost 25.3% of its health!

Florges had its energy drained!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 40

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Florges was seeded!

Florges's wish came true!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 41

Florges, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Trevenant used Will-O-Wisp!

The power of Heatran's Fire-type moves rose!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 42

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The power of the opposing Heatran's Fire-type moves rose!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 43

Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Earth Power!

It doesn't affect Rotom-Wash...

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 44

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

The opposing Heatran lost 23% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Heatran used Will-O-Wisp!

Florges avoided the attack!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 45

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

Florges lost 33.3% of its health!

Florges used Wish!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 46

Florges, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Heatran used Roar!

Haxorus was dragged out!

Haxorus breaks the mold!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 47

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Gliscor!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gliscor!

Haxorus used Earthquake!

It doesn't affect the opposing Gliscor...

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Turn 48

Nysyr: if he has defog

AjTheEpic: If he has defog, he's using an illegal set

Nysyr: ikr

Haxorus, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Gliscor used Substitute!

The opposing Gliscor put in a substitute!

The opposing Gliscor lost 25% of its health!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Turn 49

AjTheEpic: Actually, I'm just curious about that gliscor's movepool

Nysyr: sub tox

Nysyr: probably

AjTheEpic: With what attacks?

AjTheEpic: Eq?

Nysyr: eq

Nysyr: aka skarmbait

AjTheEpic: I have a wall for that set

Nysyr: might be taunt too

The opposing Gliscor used Earthquake!

Florges lost 28.3% of its health!

Florges used Wish!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Turn 50

Florges, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Gliscor used Toxic!

Rotom-Wash was badly poisoned!

Florges's wish came true!

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by poison!

Turn 51

AjTheEpic: Walls are nive

Rotom-Wash, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing Gliscor used Protect!

But it failed!

Turn 52

AjTheEpic: Get some more hazards up here

Nysyr: yep skarmbait gliscor

bigperko withdrew Gliscor!

bigperko sent out Genesect!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Genesect!

The opposing Genesect's Download raised its Special Attack!

Skarmory used Brave Bird!

The opposing Genesect lost 51% of its health!

Skarmory is damaged by recoil!

Turn 53

AjTheEpic: Easy bait, too

AjTheEpic: That was predictable switch lol

Nysyr: welp hes dead

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Genesect used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 32.5% of its health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 54

The opposing Genesect used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 29.4% of its health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

It's super effective! The opposing Genesect lost 8% of its health!

The opposing Genesect fainted!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

bigperko sent out Gliscor!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gliscor!

Turn 55

AjTheEpic: That's one wall gone

bigperko withdrew Gliscor!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 56

AjTheEpic: I have one more to take care of and I think I can sweep

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Aerodactyl!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Aerodactyl!

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by poison!

Turn 57

AjTheEpic: This is why I don't play this style, though, I'm not any good at it

The opposing Aerodactyl used Stone Edge!

Rotom-Wash lost 36.5% of its health!

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's super effective! The opposing Aerodactyl lost 47% of its health!

Dread Arceus joined.

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Skarmory!

Turn 58

The opposing Aerodactyl used Taunt!

Skarmory fell for the taunt!

Skarmory used Brave Bird!

A critical hit! It's not very effective... The opposing Aerodactyl lost 3% of its health!

Skarmory is damaged by recoil!

The opposing Aerodactyl fainted!

AjTheEpic: Stall teams have all six pokemon available at all times. Though it is fun to play a style I've never tried

Nysyr: why didnt he sr lol

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Turn 59

AjTheEpic: Mega aero is more a sweeper

AjTheEpic: Or cleaner

bigperko: because he'd just defg

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

Florges lost 23.3% of its health!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 60

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

Florges lost 25% of its health!

Florges was burned!

Florges used Wish!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges was hurt by its burn!

Florges fainted!

AjTheEpic: Whelp

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Turn 61

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Trevenant!

Rotom-Wash used Hydro Pump!

The opposing Trevenant avoided the attack!

Florges's wish came true!

Rotom-Wash was hurt by poison!

Turn 62

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

It's not very effective... The opposing Trevenant lost 9% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Trevenant used Leech Seed!

Heatran was seeded!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 63

AjTheEpic: I want to say I need to work on the art of luring more

AjTheEpic: I haven't gotten that gliscor out at all

Heatran, come back!

Go! Haxorus!

Haxorus breaks the mold!

bigperko withdrew Trevenant!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

The opposing Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 64

Haxorus, come back!

Go! Gengar!

bigperko withdrew Heatran!

bigperko sent out Gliscor!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Gliscor!

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Turn 65

AjTheEpic: Bam

The opposing Gliscor used Protect!

The opposing Gliscor protected itself!

Gengar used Hidden Power!

The opposing Gliscor protected itself!

The opposing Gliscor restored HP using its Poison Heal!

Turn 66

Pokemon Showdown! damage calculator. (Courtesy of Honko)
- Damage Calculator

Gengar used Hidden Power!

It's super effective! The opposing Gliscor lost 100% of its health!

The opposing Gliscor fainted!

AjTheEpic: Had to calc

AjTheEpic: Sorry

bigperko sent out Conkeldurr!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Conkeldurr!

Turn 67

Gengar used Destiny Bond!

Gengar is trying to take its foe down with it!

The opposing Conkeldurr used Bulk Up!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Attack rose!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Defense rose!

The opposing Conkeldurr restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 68

AjTheEpic: Meh

Gengar used Substitute!

Gengar put in a substitute!

Gengar lost 24.8% of its health!

The opposing Conkeldurr used Bulk Up!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Attack rose!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Defense rose!

Turn 69

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing Conkeldurr lost 44% of its health!

The opposing Conkeldurr used Ice Punch!

Gengar's substitute faded!

The opposing Conkeldurr restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 70

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing Conkeldurr lost 46% of its health!

The opposing Conkeldurr used Bulk Up!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Attack rose!

The opposing Conkeldurr's Defense rose!

The opposing Conkeldurr restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 71

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing Conkeldurr lost 22% of its health!

The opposing Conkeldurr fainted!

bigperko sent out Trevenant!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Trevenant!

Turn 72

AjTheEpic: So apparently, this thing can sweep...

Gengar used Hidden Power!

It's super effective! The opposing Trevenant lost 36% of its health!

The opposing Trevenant fainted!

bigperko sent out Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Heatran!

Turn 73

Gengar used Destiny Bond!

Gengar is trying to take its foe down with it!

The opposing Heatran used Lava Plume!

A critical hit! Gengar lost 50.4% of its health!

Gengar fainted!

Gengar took its attacker down with it!

The opposing Heatran fainted!

AjTheEpic won the battle!

Ladder updating...

bigperko's rating: 1641 → 1636
(-5 for losing)

AjTheEpic's rating: 1736 → 1739
(+3 for winning)

AjTheEpic: That really wasn't it's role... but I'm not complaining

bigperko left.

AjTheEpic: Nysry, do you think that demonstrates him at all?

Nysyr: eh

Nysyr: i dont like the lack of shadowball

 

[AOPSUser]

pretty much this, except the ban side has purely specific anecdotal nonsense that is not practical in almost any team

Ha.

Haha.

Hahaha.

I'd like to see what you think of Shuca Berry Icy Wind Jirachi. Yes, lots of people ran that in Gen V. Why? To get rid of Garchomp.

Mega Gengar fits onto any team with a sweeper because he can eliminate almost anything you want to easily. Having trouble with Gyarados? Give Gengar Thunderbolt. Gliscor? HP Ice. Now your Lucario has a perfect opportunity to sweep!

Or if Lucario isn't your cup of tea, why don't you try DD Gyarados? Eliminate that Rotom-W first, then sac your Mega Gengar and watch Gyarados walk over the rest of your opponent's Gyara-weak team!

Or DD Haxorus. Just trap that Skarmory and kill it with Thunderbolt. Next, destroy that Togekiss with Sludge Bomb. Now you can just DD up.

And so on.

In fact, if you can find me a GOOD non-stall team that can't benefit from having a Mega Gengar--oh wait.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

What your describing is a wall breaker...there are countless terrific ones of them in the meta already and just because mega gengar does it very well does not make it ban worthy. That set is also very easy to recognize so people can play around it

But Mega Gengar can also fare very well against offensive teams as well as defensive teams. It's versatility is amazing, making it scarier.

Reuniclus is the ultimate stall team check and does it even better than mega gengar, and it sits comfortably in OU

But Mega Gengar absolutely destroys the playstyle. More often than not, stall teams are slow, and can't deal that much damage. Think of the nightmare that would ensue when you're trying to break Mega Gengar's sub while being trapped and being Perish Song'd.