Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[LordRandomness]

So I ran a calculation, and apparently, max Defense Sableye is only 3HKOed by Mega Kangaskhan's Crunch:

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Now I know that maximum Defense Sableye is significantly rare, but if such a scenario occurred, would Crunch be Mega Kangaskhan's best option against Sableye, and wouldn't Sableye be able to retaliate with Will-O-Wisp, or can Mega Kangaskhan still get past Sableye through conventional means? I apologize if there's something I'm missing here, this just had me wondering.

Earthquake 2HKOes if I recall, which is an issue. Also, if Kangaskhan doesn't Megavolve on the switch and scores a +1 things become significantly more dire. (For that matter, if it's already +2 you're kinda screwed)

EDIT:

Jaded_Hades -- The Foul Play point is totally irrelevant because a +2 Kang will OHKO Mabdibuzz with Return...

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 195-231 (89.8 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO pretty much confirms this. I mean, Kee/Chilan will allow Mandibuzz to soak the attack but at the cost of significantly worsening it in other situations.

 

[jvl101993]

I would like to apologize for my broken quotes, and maybe I like those odds, but there may not be one certain way to stop megakhan, but there are ways, some not practical, but may we should try to stop it with le ss conventional pokemon, there are plenty of unused mon that might hold the potential to do as such

Actually, my calc is wrong. Infernape is totally screwed if it doesn't switch in on Mega-Khan's Sucker Punch or revenge kill.

252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 93-111 (31.7 - 37.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 184-217 (62.7 - 74%)

So Infernape cannot switch in reliably at all.

You might like those odds, but I'm pretty sure a lot of us find those odds unfair.

 

[trickmasterj]

there Is always the chance of fissure or such hitting, though unreliable

 

[Hidious]

To be fair, Physically defensive Mandibuzz can usually KO it with Foul Play after 2 PuP's or at least Whirlwind it out.

Which it will never get the chance if the kangaskhan user isn't a horrendous player.

 

[jvl101993]

there Is always the chance of fissure or such hitting, though unreliable

OHKO Clause prevents the use of OHKO moves. Try again.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

there Is always the chance of fissure or such hitting, though unreliable

OHKO moves are banned under smogon rules, which is the context in which we are discussing Kangaskhan. I'll implore you again to please, PLEASE fact check before you post things.

 

[Jaded_Hades]

Which it will never get the chance if the kangaskhan user isn't a horrendous player.

Hmm. I think most of the time with me, I already had Mandi out when they brought out Kanga. That's probably why

 

[Pikadooder]

While I prefer to stay away from "This mon should be banned," and "this mon should not be banned" at this point, I think it is relevant to note that Mega Charizard X at +1 manages to OHKO MK with Flare Blitz 100% of the time without Stealth Rock damage.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 420-495 (123.1 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The obvious problem ends up being that many times you haven't had the chance to come in and Dragon Dance before MK is on the field. If you do add the pointy stones to the picture, Mega Charizard X still has a 62.5% chance to OHKO before Dragon Dance.

252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also keep in mind that Mega Charizard X is in the same speed tier as Mega Kangaskhan. However, MK usually invests in HP, so Char should outspeed. Char X is also bulky enough that I am relatively sure that it could survive a Sucker Punch even with some prior damage. I haven't run the calc though. If anybody notices that I've done something wrong with the calculations, please let me know. I haven't done too many of them, so it is entirely possibly I'm doing something goofy.

As it turns out, there are a few Pokémon who can check MK, but there aren't that many. I guess it is up to the council to decide if there are few enough to merit banning him to Ubers. I was firmly in favor of keeping him OU earlier, but after some calcs I can totally see why people would say he merits a ban.

 

[trickmasterj]

OHKO moves are banned under smogon rules, which is the context in which we are discussing Kangaskhan. I'll implore you again to please, PLEASE fact check before you post things.

really? That's gay as hell

 

[KztxL7]

While I prefer to stay away from "This mon should be banned," and "this mon should not be banned" at this point, I think it is relevant to note that Mega Charizard X at +1 manages to OHKO MK with Flare Blitz 100% of the time without Stealth Rock damage.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 420-495 (123.1 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The obvious problem ends up being that many times you haven't had the chance to come in and Dragon Dance before MK is on the field. If you do add the pointy stones to the picture, Mega Charizard X still has a 62.5% chance to OHKO before Dragon Dance.

252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also keep in mind that Mega Charizard X is in the same speed tier as Mega Kangaskhan. However, MK usually invests in HP, so Char should outspeed. Char X is also bulky enough that I am relatively sure that it could survive a Sucker Punch even with some prior damage. I haven't run the calc though. If anybody notices that I've done something wrong with the calculations, please let me know. I haven't done too many of them, so it is entirely possibly I'm doing something goofy.

As it turns out, there are a few Pokémon who can check MK, but there aren't that many. I guess it is up to the council to decide if there are few enough to merit banning him to Ubers. I was firmly in favor of keeping him OU earlier, but after some calcs I can totally see why people would say he merits a ban.

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 232-274 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 445-523 (149.8 - 176%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This is Jolly.

 

[jvl101993]

While I prefer to stay away from "This mon should be banned," and "this mon should not be banned" at this point, I think it is relevant to note that Mega Charizard X at +1 manages to OHKO MK with Flare Blitz 100% of the time without Stealth Rock damage.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 420-495 (123.1 - 145.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The obvious problem ends up being that many times you haven't had the chance to come in and Dragon Dance before MK is on the field. If you do add the pointy stones to the picture, Mega Charizard X still has a 62.5% chance to OHKO before Dragon Dance.

252+ Atk Tough Claws (custom) Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also keep in mind that Mega Charizard X is in the same speed tier as Mega Kangaskhan. However, MK usually invests in HP, so Char should outspeed. Char X is also bulky enough that I am relatively sure that it could survive a Sucker Punch even with some prior damage. I haven't run the calc though. If anybody notices that I've done something wrong with the calculations, please let me know. I haven't done too many of them, so it is entirely possibly I'm doing something goofy.

As it turns out, there are a few Pokémon who can check MK, but there aren't that many. I guess it is up to the council to decide if there are few enough to merit banning him to Ubers. I was firmly in favor of keeping him OU earlier, but after some calcs I can totally see why people would say he merits a ban.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-301 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

If you switch into PuP, Sucker Punch is a guaranteed kill. And it could just PuP while you DD. Or switch.

 

[Skyblade12]

really? That's gay as hell

Yes, because we all play a game with structure and rules because we love the thrill of the lottery.

OHKO moves are extremely luck based. Even worse, when they hit (or if you use an accuracy booster), they are completely unblockable. You can do nothing against them. They literally make the game come down to chance.

I loathe certain things about the metagame, but even I would never complain about the OHKO rule.

 

[LordRandomness]

OHKO moves are banned under smogon rules, which is the context in which we are discussing Kangaskhan. I'll implore you again to please, PLEASE fact check before you post things.

really? That's gay as hell

I am so sigging this.

EDIT: Oh good I finally managed to get the format to work.

 

[jvl101993]

really? That's gay as hell

Uhh...no it isn't. OHKO moves take all the skill out of a Pokemon game and rely on luck. It's why we banned OHKO moves, Moody, and evasion-raising abilities. If you're unlucky, you will lose. There is no competitive merit to that.

 

[Forty-Two]

I'll be brief, since I know that whatever I can possibly add on to this debate has already been said numerous times. But I want to get my vote in. Mega Kangaskhan is ridiculously overpowered, to a degree that I have never seen before. It can sweep entire teams with little effort thanks to its great neutral coverage, solid Celebi-level bulk, ridiculous raw power, single weakness, and varied coverage movepool. It can find numerous opportunities to set up thanks to a damage-dealing Fighting-type Swords Dance as well as its natural bulk and ability to force switches by threatening with one of its powerful attacks. Mega Kangaskhan has essentially a free Choice Band that ALSO breaks subs and sashes without getting locked into one move thanks to its ability, can boost further with a damage-dealing Swords Dance, and can generally ensure the death of at least one or two Pokemon on any team without one of its weak counters. For its insane sheer power complimented by impressive bulk, strong priority, and a good speed tier to boot, I think that Kangaskhanite fully deserves the banhammer.

 

[trickmasterj]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

 

[trickmasterj]

Uhh...no it isn't. OHKO moves take all the skill out of a Pokemon game and rely on luck. It's why we banned OHKO moves, Moody, and evasion-raising abilities. If you're unlucky, you will lose. There is no competitive merit to that.

crits are also luck based, luck i's a factor

deal with it

 

[Jaded_Hades]

Here's my main question, with the likelihood of M-Kanga being banned fairly high: Is Mega Lucario similary broken? It does have more weaknesses, but it has insane offensive stats and great speed, plus perfect neutral coverage with 3 moves (at least for special sets). It's undoubtedly the next Mega on the chopping block if/when Kanga gets a ruling.

 

[Orga777]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

I covered this way earlier in the thread, and I am sure others have as well. Hypnosis being a 60% accurate move is not RELIABLE, and absolutely NOTHING runs it when better moves can be used on the same pokemon. This is a waste and over-centralizing on a hunch that something that misses more than Focus Miss is a real option at all.

 

[Skyblade12]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

I beg you to check the accuracy of Hypnosis. And then to remember the Sleep Clause: Under competitive rules, you are not allowed to put more than one of your opponent's Pokémon to sleep at a time.

Also, Heal Bell and Aromatherapy.

 

[jvl101993]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

A 60 accuracy sleep move and a supremely situational move? You do realize that we have said that not even WoW is truly reliable, and that got boosted to 85 accuracy. Even if you do get the sleep, Mega-Khan can still switch out, and you've wasted a turn using Dream Eater.

 

[DinaIsha]

Mega Kangaskhan is as broken as a Talonflame with Close Combat (Even so, Kangaskhan has superior Defenses). It only takes 1 Parental-bond Power-up Punch on the right mon to set Mega Kangaskhan rolling and there's almost no stopping it. With just Return and Fire Punch, it can 2OHKO even the most defensive-oriented mons in the game. Here are some calculations against the most prominent Physical Walls in the metagame to put it in perspective. All the calculations have been done assuming a Jolly Mega Kangaskhan at +2 (Movepool: Power-up Punch, Return, Sucker Punch, Fire Punch):

Mega Kangaskhan Damage Calculations

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 249-294 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 225-267 (67.3 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 271-321 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 246-291 (60.8 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ferrothorn and Forretress, presumably, are easy preys to Parental Bond Fire Punch

 

[Sucker Lunch]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

*pats on head*

Sometimes, you just can't fix things that are truly broken. It's a fact you have to accept in life.

 

[TheTraininator]

you could hypnosis him and potentially take him out with dream eaters, or at least force a switch and then drag him out against a fighting to try and blast him while he's down

 

[Pikadooder]

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 255-301 (85.8 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

If you switch into PuP, Sucker Punch is a guaranteed kill. And it could just PuP while you DD. Or switch.

Charizard has no business coming in on MK. In the scenarios I was talking about he has either already started to attempt to sweep or is coming in to attempt to revenge kill. That being said, if MK is at +2 Sucker Punch will destroy Char anyway, so that isn't really viable anyway.