If it is a mammal, why does it lay eggs? And how the hell did my recently hatched kangaskhan already have a child?
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Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Cobalion can't learn WoW, silly. :^)
Seriously though, one counter doesn't make a broken mon not broken. You just made a set tailored to counter one threat. How does it fare against the rest of OU? Kyogre has a hard-counter in Ludicolo, Gastrodon, Shedinja, just for perspective. Xerneas gets hard-stopped by Aegislash, one of the top threats of OU. Doesn't mean, it should be brought down.
Also Kang can run Jolly, which is perfectly viable and happens quite a bit. Then its all over for poor Athos.
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Just because things have a counter/check doesn't mean they aren't broken. Otherwise we could bring down stuff like groudon and kyogre under the guise that "cresselia counters groudon" or "gastrodon/shedinja walls kyogre" etc.
Mega Kang is unhealthy for OU simply because the pokemon needed to handle him reliably (dusclops, cofag, cobalion) aren't great options to pick for OU and things like rocky helmet are more prevalent than they should be thanks to mega kang. It's shaping the metagame around itself and that is why it is unhealthy to have in OU. Plus the fact that at any given point in the match you can lose up to half your team from mega kang just powering through everything.
Mega Kang is unhealthy for OU simply because the pokemon needed to handle him reliably (dusclops, cofag, cobalion) aren't great options to pick for OU and things like rocky helmet are more prevalent than they should be thanks to mega kang. It's shaping the metagame around itself and that is why it is unhealthy to have in OU. Plus the fact that at any given point in the match you can lose up to half your team from mega kang just powering through everything.
I want to bring this up once more because fourty-something pages later, we're basically going in circles with the exception of one thing: When we try to find checks and ways to stop Mega Momma, we only find new ways to exploit her power (I'm looking at you, Facade). We even found that she can go mixed to take out Ferrothorn without Power-Up Punch! I want to emphasize the Offense Clause once again because I think that, though a bit old, these guidelines still serve as a good starting point for development.
The Offense Clause states that "A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."
When we have quotes that continuously point this out:
...does that say anything?
People have posted calcs, people have posted ways to take it out, but...let me bring something up for comparison, shall we? Anybody remember Terrakion? That Pokemon was a menace in Gen V. It had astounding Attack, a movepool deemed "just enough", impressive Speed, and decent bulk. The catch was that while people brought in ways to stop it, many of them would've been when you had lost a Pokemon--Revenge Killing is the term, I believe. Even then, Terrakion had the movepool to switch over to a new coverage move, whether it be Zen Headbutt, Earthquake, and I once saw Hidden Power Ice on it before, but only once. It could deviate and scare off most would-be checks. Mega Momma is...kind of the same thing. She has even better attack, a movepool that would even make Terrakion weep, good speed, and...better bulk. People are trying to bring up how to stop it, but once again, those situations are for Revenge Killing. As Hawky posted, "Plenty of posts about how to kill it, not enough posts of how to switch in on it, only about Revenge Killing it."
To show you that you can't easily switch into Mega Kangaskhan, here's what she can do to even the most Defensive Pokemon (Crunch and Sucker Punch can be swapped, but both weild the same power anyways):
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 189-225 (58.3 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [if you're running King's Shield, USE IT...though even that could be risky]
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 240-285 (55.5 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 168-199 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery [wait, seriously?]
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 180-213 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Donphan: 171-202 (44.5 - 52.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 126-150 (39.1 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Escavalier: 121-144 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 100-118 (28.2 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 180-213 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 163-195 (46 - 55%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 139-163 (36.3 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lugia: 168-201 (40.3 - 48.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 100-121 (29 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 139-163 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Registeel: 189-225 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- 21.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 157-186 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 189-225 (47.9 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Wobbuffet: 282-333 (48.2 - 57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 168-199 (40 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Power-Up Punch, 200 guaranteed Seismic Toss, and Fire Blast exist as possible ways around some walls and tanks, despite even most of these walls falling (look again; some of them are Uber). Also realize the EV Spread gives the defender far more bulk that it would normally have. Without it, those 3HKOs would turn into 2HKOs easily. To show my new opinion on Mega Kangaskhan, let me reanswer my questions from before:
1. Is Mega Kangaskhan Broken?
All we do is somehow find more ways to abuse her, so...she's more broken than at first thought.
2. Is Mega Kangaskhan making OU not fun?
Considering that people are forced to run specific Pokemon to get over her in a normal situation, I don't find it fun anymore since everybody is either Pro-Momma or Anti-Momma.
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing OU?
It is for me, that's for sure.
This post is filled with...let me explain something. Look above. None of her attacks have a boosted attack from Power-Up Punch. THIS is the damage she does without it. It's scary. It's very very scary. The Offense Clause $&*@&^&%%$(insert beating the dead horse). Mega Kangaskhan can sweep through most of the most defensive Pokemon in situations where the defender has more defense than normal WITHOUT the use of Power-Up Punch.
Sorry if it looks like I'm overeacting, but...this Pokemon is truly one of the scariest Pokemon I've come across and a combination of wall-breaking, what many (including myself), call over-centralization--walls are always being used, stall and defense is threatened, etc., and most importantly, she sweeps the majority of the used Pokemon in normal situations. Does she need to be banned? I say that she does
Well, I feel bad about my last post, so... Shaky Kanga check anyone? Hopefully this makes up for that.
Gengar @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Levitate
252 Sp Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Defense
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam
Substitute
Will-o-Wisp
Most Gengar try Sub Disable shenanigans, and we all know how Kanga can play around that with Fire Punch, Crunch, and Sucker Punch, but nobody expects you to just burn it with Gengar, of all things. Also, this set isn't even bad outside of Kanga, you can still burn things like Tyranitar, Scizor, Mandibuzz, and other things that try to beat Gengar.
Gengar still can't switch into Crunch or Fire Punch, but if its an Earthquake variant it can Sub, Burn, and just stall it out by spamming Sub. If it is Crunch, well, you still get off the burn at least.
Gengar @ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Levitate
252 Sp Attack / 252 Speed / 4 Defense
Shadow Ball
Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam
Substitute
Will-o-Wisp
Most Gengar try Sub Disable shenanigans, and we all know how Kanga can play around that with Fire Punch, Crunch, and Sucker Punch, but nobody expects you to just burn it with Gengar, of all things. Also, this set isn't even bad outside of Kanga, you can still burn things like Tyranitar, Scizor, Mandibuzz, and other things that try to beat Gengar.
Gengar still can't switch into Crunch or Fire Punch, but if its an Earthquake variant it can Sub, Burn, and just stall it out by spamming Sub. If it is Crunch, well, you still get off the burn at least.
From a different pokemon, silly :^)
38 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 296-350 (84.3 - 99.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 38 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 590-696 (168 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 38 Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 440-522 (125.3 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Adjusting for jolly still does a fair chunk. Could OHKO if you take a bit out of def?
EDIT: Shit, I just realised that I forgot to set kanga's base def to 100 in the calculator. So adjusting for jolly means cobalion can't OHKO unless you give him a LO/band/scarf, but at that point you're getting into the realm of "silly kanga-only counters". Still though,
38 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 320-377 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I agree that these things going up in useage because of kanga is a bad thing, but there's no reason why pokemon shouldn't rise out of UU/RU/NU between gen changes anyway. Mandibuzz and sableye are becoming a big deal regardless of kanga -- the shift to a bulkier meta helps them survive better
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This is blatantly false. Mkhan has only a few good checks and counters (musketeers, nape, MegaLuke, Sableye). MKhan is so good that you'd rather have a second check on your team just to make sure (so add a Rocky Helmet Skarm, Ferro, Chomp). MKhan is also too good to pass up for many teams. Basically, once the entire meta knows how good this thing is, we'll commonly see this pattern in teambuilding:
- MKhan
- MKhan check 1
- MKhan check 2
- Counter to a MKhan check
- Counter to another MKhan check
- Sweeper that pairs well with MKhan
That's hardly diverse if you ask me. See, there's a fine line between healthy, balanced diversity and overcentralization. I don't want to run some obscure shit that checks MKhan and does nothing else. I don't want to always go for a Musketeer or Infernape just so I can take care of Khan. I want the freedom to choose whatever the hell I want, and MKhan has the potential to severely restrict teambuilding.
Also, note how in this entire post, I've only regarded teambuilding itself, so I didn't even mention how stupid it is that MKhan has the potential to kill at least one thing every single game and therefor is stupidly OP in battle.
I HAD HOPED THAT MKHAN WOULD'VE BEEN BANNED ALREADY BUT ALAS
Keeping the Khan:
- Once Pokebank is implemented, the Musketeers will pose as an excellent response to the famous "Return/PuP/Sucker Punch/Crunch" sets, earning Justified boosts on both Crunch and Sucker Punch, and having a natural Fighting type to take full advantage of their STAB.
- The general predictability of Khan's movesets can allow for possible counterplay, given the presence of team members that can take advantage of those opportunities.
- Usage of a team's Mega Slot. We have already banished Gengarite, and with a ban of 'khanite, teams will have access to fewer Mega options, leading to less diversity of teams.
- Reliance on a usage of Power-Up Punch to reliably one-shot an entire team.
- Sucker Punch is a powerful, but iffy priority move. It can be averted with proper play, such as using a faster Pokemon's priority move to outspeed and nullify it, or by using a non-damaging move (phazing, status induction, etc.).
- Normal typing isn't that fantastic, from either a defensive or an offensive standpoint.
- Forced double-attacks leave it susceptible to impaling itself on Rough Skin / Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet-sporting 'mons.
- It's quite easy to switch Kangaskhan into something that can't critically harm it, and either Power-up Punch against a switch-in (if no Ghosts are available), or Crunch on a suspected Ghost switch-in.
- Even without Power-up Punch, the Khan still has enough offensive might to one-shot all but the bulkiest of Pokemon with its incredible offensive might, attacks that can break and surpass Substitutes and Sashes, and a solid variety of offensive move typings that can reliably hit most Pokemon for at least neutral damage.
- Power-up Punch on MegaKhan is effectively a base 35 Double Kick (technically, 40, then 30) with a built-in Swords Dance. In other words, it's ridiculous if it hits.
- Incredibly hard to wall, thanks in part to the aforementioned Power-up Punch, as well as access to a double-powered Seismic Toss.
- With its access to Sucker Punch (which becomes a base 120 Dark priority move), counter-play against a Kangaskhan generally devolves into guesswork. The options available include firing off Priority moves on Pokemon with a >100 Speed BST and a boosting nature, or switching into Ghost types and hoping that they didn't use a non-Normal/Fighting move, or using Prankster-mon to inflict burns/paralysis on it and stall it out to death, or hoping that they use Sucker Punch and using that turn to use a helpful non-damaging move. However, they are all contingent on the opponent not out-predicting you, and your knowledge of that specific Khan's moveset.
- MegaKhan's general power prompts players to either use it, or run counters to it, in order to remain competitive. Its mere presence is a limiting factor on a team's Mega slot usage.
Personally I find kanga easy to counter as long as you have a faster fighting type like mega lucario or infernape. Both manage to one shot it.
Incidentally, we already had the pleasure to experience the same thing. Remember the bad old days of D/P Garchomp? Every viable team was reduced to this:
- Garchomp
- Garchomp check the first
- Garchomp check the second
- Garchomp check eliminator the first
- Garchomp check eliminator the second
- Tyranitar / something else
The really tragic thing is that it was easier to check Garchomp this way; it was possible to lure it into Outrage with a Steel-type, making your revenge-killing job much easier. Kangaskhan can just freely switch between three moves with perfect coverage or simply switch out.
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LO Mienshao turns out to be a nice counter to MegaKhan. 252+ Speed guarantees that I'll outspeed MK, and then Fake Out + HJK will take it out.
I like to think that the baby is the one Mega Evolving because the mother doesn't change at all aesthetically.
As it has been said that is not the problem. It's not too hard to kill with a fighting type but who would switch their kangaskhan onto a fighting type?
You'll have kangaskhan in, against one of your other pokemon, and you will be like okay.
I have a lucario but Mega Kang is faster since I haven't mega evolved yet, crap...
and pretty much 2HKO anything that comes in.
Hit Meinshao when it comes in, sucker punch when you HJK, not hard, or switch out to a ghost or something when you expect the fighting move.
Umm...
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 462-546 (157.6 - 186.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 390-459 (138.7 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 381-450 (117.9 - 139.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 351-414 (108.6 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 282-333 (87.3 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 405-477 (149.4 - 176%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 330-391 (111.1 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I didn't know that faster Fighting-Types could switch into Mega Momma...
You realize that a counter has to be able to SAFELY switch into the pokemon?
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 321-379 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 292-346 (90.1 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 325-384 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 337-397 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 369-433 (110.4 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 321-379 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
A ton of things cant even switch in on a +0 Return and no one runs 252 HP EVs on these pokemon.
If Lucario comes out for the first time switching into Return, Jolly M.Kang has a pretty damn good chance of killing it on the 2nd Return before M.Lucario gets to outspeed M.Kang.
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 292-346 (90.1 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 325-384 (89.2 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 337-397 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 369-433 (110.4 - 129.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 321-379 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 162-192 (47 - 55.8%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
A ton of things cant even switch in on a +0 Return and no one runs 252 HP EVs on these pokemon.
If Lucario comes out for the first time switching into Return, Jolly M.Kang has a pretty damn good chance of killing it on the 2nd Return before M.Lucario gets to outspeed M.Kang.
Yes I am aware of that. Its all about prediction. Switch the fast pokemon in when it predicts you to attack so it would use sucker punch you can then preceed to one shot it with cc or aura sphere in special mega lucario's case.
No one is going to switch in a Mega Kang when their best option is going to be an immediate Sucker Punch.
Switching Mienshao into MKanga is not going to be particularly easy however
Counters shouldn't depend entirely on prediction just to do their job though
I will further explain this:
A COUNTER has to be able to safely switch into ANY move--ANY ONE MOVE, MIND YOU--and be able to threaten the opponent. Most of the "fast fighting-types" are OHKO'd or 2HKO'd and can be picked off by Sucker Punch, even the Muskateers. Point is, if you're going to post, don't just breathe; think.
Your literary prowess shines dear fellow. As much as I do not wish to see Kanga banned, the question of separate entity crisis is irrelevant considering this question resounds with a better answer of the mega kanga DUO banned as you've previously stated. I am astounded at the length at which this thread has trudged on however.
For the 1000000th time Lucario with Lucarionite is not a counter to MK he can't switch on him AND has to be already Mevolved so no just nope.
You have to realize what the mentor is saying though. An undamaged Kangaskhan mega evolved has the natural bulk if not already previously supported to muscle through such moves. The points needed to be taken into consideration is the fact that not counting any entry hazards or residual damage, when I personally see a lucario on the switch I know already its going to try and one shot me but Id rather go for return or Power Up Punch after living the initial hit and countering the steel weakness I wish to exploit.
This. People forget that MegaKangashkan actually has ability to go Mixed because of Parental Bond which works like a FREE Choice Band AND Specs if needed. At 0 SpA Evs and Neutral Nature she has technically the same amount of Special Attack as uninvested 100 SpA (only 2 points lower, 234 vs 236). With some investment this is more than enough to actually go Mixed. So honestly if you really want, MegaKangashkan can actually be unpredictible if someone wants her to go this way. Heck, someone mentioned Work Up which I think is possible to be used with her more than decent base speed and incredible Parental Bond (this one I may need to try, sounds interesting on paper). So honestly I don't understand that argument that she's predictible - if you want her, she's not. And defensive sets are great as well with 200 damage Seismic Tosses and good natural bulk.
About Ban or Not Option - EVERYTHING in this thread was IMO said so repeating this stuff is just pointless. It's incredibly hard to stop Pokemon and if she has counters, than they are really niche. To the point where they end up deadweight for trying to stop anything else. I won't miss her if she ends up banned. At all.
See lucario, switch out to a counter.
Watch Lucario switch out, switch back in.
Then you get a free hit if lucario switches in.
Well you can play around this with prediction and hazards but its all pretty much the same story.
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