Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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bioober said:
Although this is my first ever post, I honestly believe that Mega-Kangaskha shouldn't be banned.
First of all, in my opinion, this seems like it'll lead to a slippery slope. Next thing we know, we would want to ban Azumarill, Mega-Mawaile, even Diggersby for their abilities to reach sky high attack values while also retaining priority moves.
Secondly, Kangaskhan has a very predictable move pool which comes in the form of the Power-Up Punch, Sucker punch, and Return with a 4th varient move (from what I've seen) which more or less only may knock out one of your pokemon at most before you switch into a check/counter. Which comes in the form of various Steel, Ghost, or Fighting Pokemon depending on what 4th move it uses (faster fighting types usually being able to revenge kill it, like the Muskuteer Pokemons). I've also seen many Rocky Helmet Ferrothorns counter Mega-Kangaskhan multiple times, taking recoil damage twice. Sure it's a Choice Band with the ability to change up moves, but the same applies for the above pokemon I just stated and Life Orbed Pokemon usually hold the same fire power as a Parental Bond Mega-Kangaskhan.
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Wow....

Rocky helmet being a counter actually supports banning it as it is leading to OVER CENTRALIZING. Also, can LO holders brake sub and sash? NO. And btw, most of the fast fighting type pokemon you mentioned can't switch in on Mega kang safely. And predictable? Just because Manaphy was predictable last gen doesn't mean it wasn't OP

No way will this lead to diggersby or any other of the pokemon you listed ban.
 
bioober said:
Although this is my first ever post, I honestly believe that Mega-Kangaskha shouldn't be banned.
First of all, in my opinion, this seems like it'll lead to a slippery slope. Next thing we know, we would want to ban Azumarill, Mega-Mawaile, even Diggersby for their abilities to reach sky high attack values while also retaining priority moves.
Secondly, Kangaskhan has a very predictable move pool which comes in the form of the Power-Up Punch, Sucker punch, and Return with a 4th varient move (from what I've seen) which more or less only may knock out one of your pokemon at most before you switch into a check/counter. Which comes in the form of various Steel, Ghost, or Fighting Pokemon depending on what 4th move it uses (faster fighting types usually being able to revenge kill it, like the Muskuteer Pokemons). I've also seen many Rocky Helmet Ferrothorns counter Mega-Kangaskhan multiple times, taking recoil damage twice. Sure it's a Choice Band with the ability to change up moves, but the same applies for the above pokemon I just stated and Life Orbed Pokemon usually hold the same fire power as a Parental Bond Mega-Kangaskhan.
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I... Ahh... Umm...... No........... You have 61 pages of thread to read through to disprove everything you said here by looking at ONE of those pages. You're really comparing Mega Kangaskhan to shit like DIGGERSBY? Also it doesn't matter if it's movepool is predictable if it 2HKOs the entire tier and has enough bulk to survive pretty much any common attack when its healthy.

And Ninja'd by like 5 other people. Yeah. There is no backing to these kind of arguments. Everyone just stop posting and wait for the goddamned ban.
 
bioober said:
Although this is my first ever post, I honestly believe that Mega-Kangaskha shouldn't be banned.
First of all, in my opinion, this seems like it'll lead to a slippery slope. Next thing we know, we would want to ban Azumarill, Mega-Mawaile, even Diggersby for their abilities to reach sky high attack values while also retaining priority moves.
Secondly, Kangaskhan has a very predictable move pool which comes in the form of the Power-Up Punch, Sucker punch, and Return with a 4th varient move (from what I've seen) which more or less only may knock out one of your pokemon at most before you switch into a check/counter. Which comes in the form of various Steel, Ghost, or Fighting Pokemon depending on what 4th move it uses (faster fighting types usually being able to revenge kill it, like the Muskuteer Pokemons). I've also seen many Rocky Helmet Ferrothorns counter Mega-Kangaskhan multiple times, taking recoil damage twice. Sure it's a Choice Band with the ability to change up moves, but the same applies for the above pokemon I just stated and Life Orbed Pokemon usually hold the same fire power as a Parental Bond Mega-Kangaskhan.
Third, as for breaking Substitues/Focus Sashes, there are an immense number of priority users this generation to easily counter Focus Sash users, in addition a new improved "Infiltrator" ability allows pokemon such as Noivern and Crobot to easily break Substitute users. And let's be honest, why would you use a Substitute/Focus Sash pokemon against a Mega-Kangaskhan.
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Every sweeper must have a major downside that could stop it from pulling a sweep. For some like Gengar and Breloom, it's a lack of bulk. Others like Hydreigon and sometimes Rotom-W without Scarf, it's a lack of speed. It could be a lack of a movepool like Keldeo. It could be like like Jolteon and seem weaker in comparison to other sweepers. Unfortunately, Mega Kangaskhan suffers from NONE of these. "Rocky Helmet"? How about Earthquake not making contact?

Read my signature. READ it. Impliment it into your future posts...PLEASE!
 
bioober said:
Although this is my first ever post, I honestly believe that Mega-Kangaskha shouldn't be banned.
First of all, in my opinion, this seems like it'll lead to a slippery slope. Next thing we know, we would want to ban Azumarill, Mega-Mawaile, even Diggersby for their abilities to reach sky high attack values while also retaining priority moves.
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Dude...

http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/kyurem-b

Kyurem-B is NOT BANNED. Kyurem-B is solid OU. Smogon is NOT afraid of sky-high attack coupled with massive defenses. The fact that Kyurem-B is currently allowed in this metagame while Khan is (above and beyond) suspect ought to give you a feel of what will be and what won't be considered Uber.
 
Dragontamer said:
STOP STOP STOP STOP. BLAZIKEN was banned. As was Deoxys-N. Mega-Blaziken has nothing to do with it. BLAZIKEN, your normal Blaziken, was deemed Uber. And Blaziken has been banned for 3 years now. The precedent on what is and isn't Uber has been set for generations. For the love of Pokemon, please understand the history of Smogon and the banlist before commenting! The powers that be at Smogon have decided to unban a number of Uber pokemon "for kicks". Consider this period the suspect testing period for all former-Uber pokemon, including Excadrill, Manaphy, Tornadus, Landorus-T, Genesect, and all of the other Uber Pokemon that have decided to "bless" the current metagame.

Blaziken was broken, even without its Mega Evolution. Normal Life-Orb Blaziken OHKO's Groudon with +2 High Jump Kick and is damn near impossible to revenge kill... and has access to Baton Pass to continue his momentum to another team member.
.
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Sorry for the confusion, I meant blaziken overall, not just its mega. Also you are correct in assuming in that we've had two months to test what mega kahn can do, and I agree it is unhealthy for the metagame. Probably should have mentioned that as well in my post...
 
I'm going for the OU tier.

I mean, there are a lot of ways to break Kanga down! A Ferrothorn with a huge defense, iron barbs and Rocky Helmet is enaugh to give Kanga a lot of damage, considering the double attack and the consequent x4 damage. Leech seed and you're done!

Mega Kangaskhan is strong, but not the strongest and it's only up to players to find a creative way to defeat it!
 
I only stated Diggersby as an example since it was one of the few pokemon off the top of my head with Huge Power.
The main argument I see is that it can 2HKO the entire tier. Does that mean we're going to ban Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lucario, or even Mega-Medicham? They all sport ridiculous amount of power with a reliable priority move and decent all around stats that are hard to pick off.
In addition, Kangaskhan from my experience has a predictable move pool, which can warrant possible switch-ins. If you predict a sucker punch that's an easy switch in, if you predict an Earthquake switch into a flying/levitating pokemon, if you predict a Power-Up Punch switch into a Ghost Pokemon like Sableye. All of the above factors has had me not have a major problem against Mega-Kangaskhan, granted it is still a threat regardless.
I realize predictable pokemon doesn't warrant a stay in OU, but things like Manaphy that had access to Tail Glow/Hydration both are ridiculously overpowered in the past metagame, had no hard counter. But now Manaphy is an OU, and I hardly see anyone complaining about it now. Mega-Kangaskhan on the other hand can be countered.
 
SasyHay94 said:
I'm going for the OU tier.

I mean, there are a lot of ways to break Kanga down! A Ferrothorn with a huge defense, iron barbs and Rocky Helmet is enaugh to give Kanga a lot of damage, considering the double attack and the consequent x4 damage. Leech seed and you're done!

Mega Kangaskhan is strong, but not the strongest and it's only up to players to find a creative way to defeat it!
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Something having counters doesn't mean it can be allowed to be OU. Kyogre and Xerneas are both walled by Shedinja (unless they run stupid shit like HP Fire) but they sure as hell aren't coming out of ubers anytime soon.
 
SasyHay94 said:
I'm going for the OU tier.

I mean, there are a lot of ways to break Kanga down! A Ferrothorn with a huge defense, iron barbs and Rocky Helmet is enaugh to give Kanga a lot of damage, considering the double attack and the consequent x4 damage. Leech seed and you're done!

Mega Kangaskhan is strong, but not the strongest and it's only up to players to find a creative way to defeat it!
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A timid Mismagius boosted in speed with Mean Look+Perish Song that protects and substitutes until the third turn... Come on.
 
SasyHay94 said:
I'm going for the OU tier.

I mean, there are a lot of ways to break Kanga down! A Ferrothorn with a huge defense, iron barbs and Rocky Helmet is enaugh to give Kanga a lot of damage, considering the double attack and the consequent x4 damage. Leech seed and you're done!
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.......................................................................You don't read long threads at all do you? Do you know how many times god forsaken Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn was brought up? Please just stop. It is not a real check or counter.

Mega Kangaskhan is strong, but not the strongest and it's only up to players to find a creative way to defeat it!
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It is also only up to players to stop Yvetal... who is easier to switch in on. Should we just let him in OU, too? Did you miss the fact taht a +2 Mega-Kanga has higher attack than Deoxys-A due to Parental Bond? This should NOT BE IN OU!
 
bioober said:
I only stated Diggersby as an example since it was one of the few pokemon off the top of my head with Huge Power.
The main argument I see is that it can 2HKO the entire tier. Does that mean we're going to ban Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lucario, or even Mega-Medicham? They all sport ridiculous amount of power with a reliable priority move and decent all around stats that are hard to pick off.
In addition, Kangaskhan from my experience has a predictable move pool, which can warrant possible switch-ins. If you predict a sucker punch that's an easy switch in, if you predict an Earthquake switch into a flying/levitating pokemon, if you predict a Power-Up Punch switch into a Ghost Pokemon like Sableye. All of the above factors has had me not have a major problem against Mega-Kangaskhan, granted it is still a threat regardless.
I realize predictable pokemon doesn't warrant a stay in OU, but things like Manaphy that had access to Tail Glow/Hydration both are ridiculously overpowered in the past metagame, had no hard counter. But now Manaphy is an OU, and I hardly see anyone complaining about it now. Mega-Kangaskhan on the other hand can be countered.
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Mega Luke has hard counters in Gliscor, Mega Scizor has hard counters Rotom, Skarm. Mega Medicham is outright stopped by practically every bulky ghost type that it can't hit super effectively, I got too 1900 ranking with the thing, so I know what stops it. All of these are kinda squishy or slow, or have an exploitable weakness, they don't have the combo of good bulk, speed and power. Mega Kanga has no weakness as a pokemon too exploit, and has only one safe switch in a very healthy Sableye. If you had read the thread, you would have known these things already, but I digress...
 
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SasyHay94 said:
A timid Mismagius boosted in speed with Mean Look+Perish Song that protects and substitutes until the third turn... Come on.
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Ever heard of switch? Ever heard of PB Crunch? Ever heard of mismagius being awful and not even a counter? Ever heard of over centralizing?

Ever heard that you are wrong?
 
bioober said:
I only stated Diggersby as an example since it was one of the few pokemon off the top of my head with Huge Power.
The main argument I see is that it can 2HKO the entire tier. Does that mean we're going to ban Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lucario, or even Mega-Medicham? They all sport ridiculous amount of power with a reliable priority move and decent all around stats that are hard to pick off.
In addition, Kangaskhan from my experience has a predictable move pool, which can warrant possible switch-ins. If you predict a sucker punch that's an easy switch in, if you predict an Earthquake switch into a flying/levitating pokemon, if you predict a Power-Up Punch switch into a Ghost Pokemon like Sableye. All of the above factors has had me not have a major problem against Mega-Kangaskhan, granted it is still a threat regardless.
I realize predictable pokemon doesn't warrant a stay in OU, but things like Manaphy that had access to Tail Glow/Hydration both are ridiculously overpowered in the past metagame, had no hard counter. But now Manaphy is an OU, and I hardly see anyone complaining about it now. Mega-Kangaskhan on the other hand can be countered.
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Just because you can switch in on a prediction does not mean you are safe. Say you switch in a skarmory on a predicted EQ/SP. Then what? Do you stay in and get 2HKO'd? Or am I then supposed to switch into a ghost predicting Return. Well again then what? Stay in on a SP/Crunch? Or am I just supposed to keep switching in and out racking up Stealth Rocks damage and thus losing in the process? Being able to switch on a predicted move means nothing when the majority of the pokes powerful enough to take out Mega-Kan cannot take a hit themselves. Also on another note the your post Kyurem-B doesn't need priority. The reason Kyurem-B with it's sky-high attack is still OU is because it has a shit physical movepool. Mega-Kan on the other hand has the usuall absurdly versatile movepool because it is a normal type.
 
bioober said:
I only stated Diggersby as an example since it was one of the few pokemon off the top of my head with Huge Power.
The main argument I see is that it can 2HKO the entire tier. Does that mean we're going to ban Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lucario, or even Mega-Medicham? They all sport ridiculous amount of power with a reliable priority move and decent all around stats that are hard to pick off.
In addition, Kangaskhan from my experience has a predictable move pool, which can warrant possible switch-ins. If you predict a sucker punch that's an easy switch in, if you predict an Earthquake switch into a flying/levitating pokemon, if you predict a Power-Up Punch switch into a Ghost Pokemon like Sableye. All of the above factors has had me not have a major problem against Mega-Kangaskhan, granted it is still a threat regardless.
I realize predictable pokemon doesn't warrant a stay in OU, but things like Manaphy that had access to Tail Glow/Hydration both are ridiculously overpowered in the past metagame, had no hard counter. But now Manaphy is an OU, and I hardly see anyone complaining about it now. Mega-Kangaskhan on the other hand can be countered.
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As someone who avidly uses M-Mawile, I can safely tell you that even with the highest attack in the game, which with Swords Dance can smash through anything not Heatran, Landorus-T, M-Aggron, Rotom-H and the like, it's not going to 6-0 teams by itself. It, like most Mega Pokemon in fact, has several flaws that hold it back and keep it in balance, its base 50 speed and 4-moveslot-syndrome being chief. The same can be said of Azumarill; and Diggersby? Pfft, it'll be lucky even to break top UU!

Other megas like the ones you're naming also have flaws that keep it in check. M-Lucario, the most likely (and probably only other) suspect, has poor defences and several reliable checks like Gliscor and Garados. M-Medicham is similar and relies on the risky Hi Jump Kick, which can be exploited by ghosts like Aegislash. M-Scizor is countered by Skarmory, Rotom and checked by Heatran, Talonflame, and others. M-Kangaskhan though, it has absolutely everything that Mawile and Lucario would kill for. More bulk, more speed, less common weaknesses, breaking subs and sashes... It has next to no opportunity cost as a mega; it's all reward and no risk.

Also, "predictable" does not mean "not broken". At all. Xerneas is notoriously predictable, but does that mean, it should be allowed in OU? Absolutely not.
 
this thread is so anoying now.

Person A: Hey Kanga OU, because rocky helmet and because 'hey i'm a 4chan user ' arguments over and over again.
Person B: Kanga Uber, because broken as ****.

Every single good, experienced competitive player (good, old netbattle times, remember?) knows that Kangaskhan destroys the meta like nothing before. I don't need to post more reasons, it's all said and done.
 
Pyritie said:
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What if we take cobalion and use him as a tank, taking advantage of his 129 base def??

252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 81-94 (25 - 29.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 42-49 (13 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock (and gives Cobalion +2 Atk)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 159-189 (49.2 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 84-102 (26 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 84-99 (26 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 423-498 (130.9 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

and in return...

144 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 330-390 (94 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 0 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 566-668 (161.2 - 190.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 0 Atk Cobalion Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 422-500 (120.2 - 142.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You need 112 speed EVs on him to outspeed adamant 252 Speed kanga, with the 144 being what's left after dumping 252 into Def.

Can survive anything at +0 and non-SE moves at +2, and if you switch him in on a crunch, the +2 you get from justified will OHKO kanga back.

And if you manage to burn her beforehand...

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond burned Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Cobalion: 211-249 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Could even run a balloon or weakness policy on him if you can switch him in on a +0 kanga

Anyone tried anything like this before?

EDIT: forgot parental bond activates justified twice
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0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 207-246 (53.6 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 207-246 (64 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

With a 20% burn chance

+1 252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 318-375 (98.4 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 213-252 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Also , If cobalion really became an issue it could always run S-toss which is a guaranteed 2 shot.

Here goes cobalion

144 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 276-326 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also unlike cobalion mega kangaskhan is a threat to an entire team and not just a pokemon that is being used to simply try and check one pokemon. The second cobalion gets burned or parlayed it's usefulness is completely gone because it can no longer preform the job of TRYING to check kanga.
 
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Pyritie said:
It's a x4 110 BP move coming off of 60 SpA (90 if you include parental bond). What were you expecting?
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actually, parental bond makes it more like base 118 SpA, not base 90 (remember, it's the number that gets the boost, not the base stat)

i gotta find a few replays showing the damage this thing can do
 
bioober said:
I only stated Diggersby as an example since it was one of the few pokemon off the top of my head with Huge Power.
The main argument I see is that it can 2HKO the entire tier. Does that mean we're going to ban Mega-Scizor, Mega-Lucario, or even Mega-Medicham? They all sport ridiculous amount of power with a reliable priority move and decent all around stats that are hard to pick off.
In addition, Kangaskhan from my experience has a predictable move pool, which can warrant possible switch-ins. If you predict a sucker punch that's an easy switch in, if you predict an Earthquake switch into a flying/levitating pokemon, if you predict a Power-Up Punch switch into a Ghost Pokemon like Sableye. All of the above factors has had me not have a major problem against Mega-Kangaskhan, granted it is still a threat regardless.
I realize predictable pokemon doesn't warrant a stay in OU, but things like Manaphy that had access to Tail Glow/Hydration both are ridiculously overpowered in the past metagame, had no hard counter. But now Manaphy is an OU, and I hardly see anyone complaining about it now. Mega-Kangaskhan on the other hand can be countered.
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Unless you're a wizard, which you're probably not, there's no guarantee that your "prediction" will be correct every single time. For example, you send out a flying type anticipating an earthquake but your opponent predicts your obvious switch and decides to use return instead. You'd get 1-shotted instantly.

There are only a handful of pokemon that can safely switch-in on mega kangaskhan which is what makes it so good. (Even max def max hp hippo can't switch in because it dies from 1 PO-punch and return from mega kang)
 
This thread is creating a lot of animosity, more than I've seen from so many other banning suspect threads. If you dont have the time to read the previous posts then do not join in on the discussion with things that have already been stated. Otherwise we just run around in circles again and keep posting calculations, not even post pokebank theory might help even if we do get access to our previous legendaries.
 
I hope I am not the only one that a NU Pokemon, which made it after all the years of struggle, gets the banhammer in the face...it is kinda sad, especially since I always liked the rare Kanga since gen 1.
...
Well yeah, it is broken, simply because it's item is an free choice choice band. It is pretty simple actually. And lol @Seismic Toss, I break every fuckin team with st in PS
 
Blame it on gamefreak, they couldve lowered its speed like they did with mega garchomp or reduced one of its stats in some other way, the game makers just gave Kangaskhan too many choices.
 
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