I believe the consensus at the OU Analysis for AV Conks is 4/252+/252 HP/Atk/SpDef. It has high enough base bulk to take most special hits, even super effective ones, and the max attack ensures KOs and max Drain Punch recovery.
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Item Assault Vest
- Thread starter Magcargo
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I believe the consensus at the OU Analysis for AV Conks is 4/252+/252 HP/Atk/SpDef. It has high enough base bulk to take most special hits, even super effective ones, and the max attack ensures KOs and max Drain Punch recovery.
I'm starting to wonder if a physical Jirachi variant could carry Assault Vest with a moveset of Serene Grace Meteor Mash, Drain Punch, Zen Headbutt/Iron Head and finished off with an elemental punch or U-Turn.
EDIT: Jirachi also gets Charge Beam, which could support its awesome special move pool more offensively than a Calm Mind set (Damage the opponent while powering up instead of using a turn). This set with an assault vest can also ease switch-ins to special attacks.
EDIT: Jirachi also gets Charge Beam, which could support its awesome special move pool more offensively than a Calm Mind set (Damage the opponent while powering up instead of using a turn). This set with an assault vest can also ease switch-ins to special attacks.
Generally, when making a bulky EV spread you want to put 252 into the defense or special defense depending on which you're prioritizing, 252 HP and 4 into whatever you feel like raising by a point. With Conkeldurr though you definitely want 4 HP/ 252+ Atk/ 252 SpDef. Peasantstatus pretty much explained why.
The reason I'm also answering is because the estimates you gave aren't a good way to EV a Pokemon. Generally, if you see a bulky mon with a spread that doesn't follow a 252/252/4 format, it's for a specific purpose. For example, in 5th Gen Skarmory may run 224 HP/ 252 Def/ 32 SpD so it can be back to full health with two turns of Leftovers recovery, while others may have spreads meant to help them survive a specific attack.
I'm a bit on the fence on this. Jirachi doesn't strike me as a great user of Assault Vest for a few reasons:
- He's not bringing enough to the table in terms of utility with the moves you listed. Drain Punch healing is neat, but Pokemon like Conkeldurr do that way better due to better Attack, abilities like Iron Fist and STAB. U-Turn is also neat but you likely won't be in a rush to switch out of Jirachi. Meteor Mash also isn't offering anything better than what Iron Head offers. A set like Iron Head/ Body Slam/ U-Turn/ Drain Punch seems better, as it basically runs like a bulkier flinch-hax set. Even then, I'd prefer something like AV TTar or Conkeldurr for what they bring to the table.
- Jirachi's typing isn't what it used to be. He gained Dark and Ghost weaknesses this generation on top of his preexisting Fire and Ground weaknesses.
- His great support movepool goes to waste with an Assault Vest.
Assault Vest seems like a waste on a flinch hax jirachi. Part of what is so devastating about that strategy is how much hp you can recover from lefties while you iron head shit to death.
What about this possible mew spread:
Mew@ Assault Vest
252 Hp/ 252 SpA Modest
-Scald
-Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Flamethrower
Water/Grass/Ice/ Fire is pretty sweet coverage. Not much wants to switch into scald and the thing a lot of teams use to take scalds, RotomW is hit hard by Giga Drain. Psychic/Pyshock may be necessary for stab power and things like conkeldurr/mega venasaur. Thunderbolt/ volt switch may be good too. It depends on what your team needs help with and what pokemon mew attracts most. Aura sphere is another option for T-Tar, but scalds could be enough to scare him away.
The EVs are not the most creative but I'm not sure if Mew would want to outspeed anything without giving up top much bulk. mamoswine used to be a good benchmark but I'm seeing much less of that benchmark than genV and it may be nice to outslow because of giga drain healing.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 229-273 (56.6 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it can't switch into these things but they don't scare Mew out either. Mew would definitely benefit from slow volt-turning. I'm pretty sure psychic and aura sphere are necessary on Mew to make these calcs mean anything so that mew can ohko back.
Some offensive calcs:
252+ SpA Mew Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. If the opponent is chesto rest even better. If you switched in on the wow to burn it then leftovers or not it is sitting below 50% and scared away. This could be really useful for a sweeper like pinsir who can kill Rotom at +2 at 50%
252+ SpA Mew Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 104-124 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO. This one is disappointing. I would stick to scald burns and running the hell away.
252+ SpA Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This is nice, especially if you can predict the switch if it's all the enemy team has to take scalds. Many mega venusaur run mixed spreads though so this can vary and you could miss the 2hko.
What about this possible mew spread:
Mew@ Assault Vest
252 Hp/ 252 SpA Modest
-Scald
-Giga Drain
-Ice Beam
-Flamethrower
Water/Grass/Ice/ Fire is pretty sweet coverage. Not much wants to switch into scald and the thing a lot of teams use to take scalds, RotomW is hit hard by Giga Drain. Psychic/Pyshock may be necessary for stab power and things like conkeldurr/mega venasaur. Thunderbolt/ volt switch may be good too. It depends on what your team needs help with and what pokemon mew attracts most. Aura sphere is another option for T-Tar, but scalds could be enough to scare him away.
The EVs are not the most creative but I'm not sure if Mew would want to outspeed anything without giving up top much bulk. mamoswine used to be a good benchmark but I'm seeing much less of that benchmark than genV and it may be nice to outslow because of giga drain healing.
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 133-157 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Mew: 229-273 (56.6 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it can't switch into these things but they don't scare Mew out either. Mew would definitely benefit from slow volt-turning. I'm pretty sure psychic and aura sphere are necessary on Mew to make these calcs mean anything so that mew can ohko back.
Some offensive calcs:
252+ SpA Mew Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. If the opponent is chesto rest even better. If you switched in on the wow to burn it then leftovers or not it is sitting below 50% and scared away. This could be really useful for a sweeper like pinsir who can kill Rotom at +2 at 50%
252+ SpA Mew Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 104-124 (25.7 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO. This one is disappointing. I would stick to scald burns and running the hell away.
252+ SpA Mew Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. This is nice, especially if you can predict the switch if it's all the enemy team has to take scalds. Many mega venusaur run mixed spreads though so this can vary and you could miss the 2hko.
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Yeah ok, I just read that I wouldn't need that much in HP investment so I just moved them over a bit trying to make his stats a bit more rounded.
Yeah but there's no point in using AV on Mew when a single Calm Mind gets you the same buff and increases your offense as well. Plus he can use Recover. AV probably is not a good fit on Calm Mind users in general.
Hmm good point. The one upside is not having to set up, which is the quality i'm most interested in as I like pokemon that can use one turn to cripple instead of set up. This is definitely biased since I like building bulky pivoting teams. All in all you're probably right that it is inferior to calm mind plus solid recovery, but the unexpected coverage and scald really interest me regardless.
A calm mind user also generally won't lure out special attackers that this mew wants too. Scald is a pretty nice way to get special attackers to come in on you.
A calm mind user also generally won't lure out special attackers that this mew wants too. Scald is a pretty nice way to get special attackers to come in on you.
Jirachi gets Calm Mind too, but there's an important distinction to keep in mind. While it's the same defensive boost, physically-offensive Mons with good utility attacking moves will appreciate Assault Vest over Calm Mind. Obviously that's pretty niche, but something to keep in mind.
That said, I wouldn't bother with it on Mew. A lot of Mew's usability comes from his status, boosting and support moves, so giving those up seems silly. In general, Pokemon with all-out attacking sets should avoid Assault Vest unless they really benefit from the added bulk and have a movepool that provides utility. Tyranitar can, with Assault Vest, tank crazy special hits while setting up Sandstorm, Pursuit-trapping weaker Mons and phazing with Dragon Tail. Conkeldurr can heal, use priority and Knock Off items with the vest while still hitting crazy hard. Mew doesn't really do those things so well. He's not hitting really hard, he's not bringing much to the rest of the team and he has better ways to spend his time.
In general, don't try to round out stats, even defensive ones. Your Mons could be more efficient with more min-maxing.
By the way, I'm just telling you this to help you learn. Not trying to pick on you or sound elitist or anything. =P I always worry about coming off like that in a forum setting.
The reason I like the idea of assault vest Jirachi is because of the 40% chance meteor mash gives to boost your attack, supporting drain punch. Or the charge beam boost being at 100%. I did forget about its new weaknesses though. Kinda makes a body slam/iron head set a lot safer.
Would you care to expand on this point more? I'm genuinely interested.
If he's bringing the sand everywhere with him, won't that result in diminishing returns, which would make leftovers a more suitable item?
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cool, meagre bulk increase using Spdef over HP, sounds wonderful.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 408-482 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 408-482 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Oops.
Listen up Folks. You DO NOT invest in Spdef when you use assault vest. Assault vest is there to allow you to bypass increasing your special defense stat and allow you to focus on more all rounded stats.
The lower your special defense stat is, the more you get out of assault vest.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cool, meagre bulk increase using Spdef over HP, sounds wonderful.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 408-482 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 408-482 (98.5 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Oops.
Listen up Folks. You DO NOT invest in Spdef when you use assault vest. Assault vest is there to allow you to bypass increasing your special defense stat and allow you to focus on more all rounded stats.
The lower your special defense stat is, the more you get out of assault vest.
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I agree with your conclusion, but I'd say that 10-12% on Conkeldurr isn't completely irrelevant. Chip damage is significant with U-Turn and Volt Switch everywhere, priority out the wazoo and WoW being spammed like crazy. Your example is skewed, too, because not every special attacker has Psyshock…if that were the case, Assault Vest would be completely irrelevant anyway.
I have used AV Excadrill, and I must say, despite all the things it misses/lacks (like the moves Ogami listed) it has done very well. The reason is that Excadrill can be a deadweight sometimes, really screwing me over against anything that has a special move, and that forces a lot of switches. What I did was patch up that Sp.Def with an AV, making it extremely useful because I know I won't have to be afraid against a faster special sweeper with an SE move (provided it hasn't set up and Exca is relatively healthy), as he can either Spin or attempt to KO if I have an SE move against it. It is much better than a focus sash, because my Excadrill does a lot of switches, and that can rack up quite a bit of passive damage. Also, one move that is extremely useful is Rapid Spin. Spinning away Hazards is always nice, but its even better when you can do it while retaining better special bulk. Mostly has its uses on Excadrill, but it could work on other Pokemon too. Like the idea of Torkoal a while ago :P
cant malamar use assault vest while spamming superpower to increase its survivability? I mean with both defenses boosted, shouldn't it be harder to kill?
Strictly speaking, that's a false statement. With Assault Vest every 4 EV's invested in SpDef becomes 1.5 points in SpDef instead of 1. With no Assault Vest, you get 63 SpDef points with full investment. With the vest that number becomes 94.5 (which I believe gets rounded up to 95, but don't quote me on that.) So, numerically speaking, you get more out of Assault Vest with higher SpDef.
I don't see the point of the calcs you posted. Not everything hits as hard as Specs Latios, which honestly why would you ever leave Conkeldurr in on that? That's a lot like saying "I don't want this Conkeldurr anymore." Furthermore the differences on the physical and special ends of the spectrum are pretty small. Are you banking on that HP investment saving you from that Psyshock 6.2% of the time, assuming no prior damage from Stealth Rock, Spikes, status or a previous hit? The Draco Meteor may only be mitigated by a bit, but I'd take that over a slight chance to take a hit Conkeldurr has no business taking. That 10% could be the difference between taking a priority hit and living to Drain Punch later.
Your argument seems extremely skewed, using poor examples with minor differences anyway, then claiming that SpDef investment is inferior with little reasoning supporting it. Beyond that, I don't see much else (you did, to your credit, use bold, underlined text to emphasize what I see as a poor argument, so I guess you have that.) If you have more calcs or other reasoning that SpDef investment is a bad idea, I'd love to hear it.
His point isn't how many actual points of SpD you get out of it, it's that the higher your SpD is, the less percentage difference it makes to the damage you take. Diminishing returns.
I understand that there are diminishing returns, but Pokemon like Conkeldurr aren't so specially defensive even with the Assault Vest that it matters.
Let's compare two attacks that are actually equivalent. We'll use Draco Meteor again, then another custom move that emulates that power hitting Conkeldurr's physical defense.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 300-354 (72.4 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 220-259 (62.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If both attacks hit for max damage, there'd be a 12% damage difference. If they both hit for minumum, that difference would be 9.9%.
The next attack is Psyshock, but made Dragon type and using 130 BP so all the numbers in play are the same except for which defense stat Conkeldurr is using.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 331-391 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 331-391 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If they both hit for max damage, there'd be a 16.6% damage difference. If they both hit for minimum, that difference would be 14.1%.
The differences in damage are pretty similar on both sides, though it is concerning that the theoretical Draco Psyshock would likely OHKO 4/0 Conkelduur without prior damage.
I still don't think that HP investment is solidly superior to SpDef investment. Diminishing returns are more apparent with Pokemon like Blissey or Assault Vest Tyranitar, but I think Pokemon like Conkeldurr don't have so much to worry about. If the investment makes a difference in a common attack OHKO/2HKOing him then I'd seriously reconsider my viewpoint, but honestly I don't feel like doing more damage calcs to find out right now. =P
I've been using Assault Vest Slowbro for a while and it is actually pretty cool. Sadly he is unable to use Slack Off and have a reliable way to regen life, but the extra bulkyness grants him more time to destroy threats. Aside from Scald and Psyshock, I'm running it with Grass Knot and Flamethrower to cover more types, although I'm not sure if those are the more viable attacks for him to use.
I don't know why Latios is being used as an example for the Conkeldurr calcs. When is a latios going to draco meteor a conkeldurr? especially now that AV is probably its most popular spread.
I think people are starting to use the diminishing returns argument a little blindly.
Yes, it is true for most pokemon for two main reasons
1. They already have a huge special defense stat, or enough to not need any more beyond AV
2. They would benefit more from mixed defenses
What I've found with Conkeldurr is that he rarely tangos with physical attacks if you don't want him to. Now I know this could be said about anyone since you can just switch something out, but I've noticed that Conk tends to either scare away a lot of the physical threats being used in today's meta or is ohkod by them. I rarely just trade punches with a physical mon with my Conkeldurr. On the other hand, AV Conk is made to trade punches with special attackers. I don't know why the ten or so percent difference between the two draco meteor numbers is being written off because the one thing that it does indicate is that investing in special defense with Conk drastically improves the defense stat you want conk to be hit on. 10% is huge for a mon without leftovers, and means every special attacker he faces is going to have a harder time killing him, which means more drain punches, which means more of Conk making your opponents life miserable.
Conkeldurr is an interesting case because he already has a great hp stat. That special defense stat is so bad that to me, it needs some special defense to make the AV worth it. Maybe not 252 EVs, but something to at least push it past the base 70 mark. Saying EVs in special defense are wasted is not always going to be true even if diminishing returns is most often a valid argument. Conkeldurr is a special case, and there could be plenty more mon out there that break the conventions that are already starting to form around the use of this item. I'm not saying that diminishing returns is not a thing, but I am wondering if it is starting to be thrown around a bit without fully understanding the unique qualities of one mon from the next.
I think people are starting to use the diminishing returns argument a little blindly.
Yes, it is true for most pokemon for two main reasons
1. They already have a huge special defense stat, or enough to not need any more beyond AV
2. They would benefit more from mixed defenses
What I've found with Conkeldurr is that he rarely tangos with physical attacks if you don't want him to. Now I know this could be said about anyone since you can just switch something out, but I've noticed that Conk tends to either scare away a lot of the physical threats being used in today's meta or is ohkod by them. I rarely just trade punches with a physical mon with my Conkeldurr. On the other hand, AV Conk is made to trade punches with special attackers. I don't know why the ten or so percent difference between the two draco meteor numbers is being written off because the one thing that it does indicate is that investing in special defense with Conk drastically improves the defense stat you want conk to be hit on. 10% is huge for a mon without leftovers, and means every special attacker he faces is going to have a harder time killing him, which means more drain punches, which means more of Conk making your opponents life miserable.
Conkeldurr is an interesting case because he already has a great hp stat. That special defense stat is so bad that to me, it needs some special defense to make the AV worth it. Maybe not 252 EVs, but something to at least push it past the base 70 mark. Saying EVs in special defense are wasted is not always going to be true even if diminishing returns is most often a valid argument. Conkeldurr is a special case, and there could be plenty more mon out there that break the conventions that are already starting to form around the use of this item. I'm not saying that diminishing returns is not a thing, but I am wondering if it is starting to be thrown around a bit without fully understanding the unique qualities of one mon from the next.
Do you/most people find Guts to be inherently better than Iron Fist on AV Conkeldurr? I run him with Iron Fist because I prefer the immediate power increase and I usually have something to either take a status move or outright kill the status user before it becomes the issue. Though it is sad that Iron Fist does nothing to increase the power of Knock Off, it already OHKO's a majority of threats weak to it and does a number on others.
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