Other Stall

[Wobblebuns]

Sorry for double posting, but this comment is completely unrelated to what i wrote above. Would azumaril be helpful? From what I understand, a lot of current stall teams struggle with fighting and dark. Azumaril just so happens to take both of those very well. Azumaril also has resistances to ice and fire which are two commonly used elemental punches on fighting types and takes neutral damage from rock and steel and resistance to ice which commonly accompany dark type attacks. Azumaril has access to moves like perish song and encore to prevent sweeps, hits hard enough to chip away at opponents on a switch, and has one or two immunities (depending on how much you care about its offensive prowess). This all comes with a respectable 100-80-80 defensive spread and the ability to dispatch weakened threats with aqua jet. Azumaril does suffer from a lack of recovery options and isn't the bulkiest Pokemon in the game, but it seems like an interesting option for anyone with a stall team that struggles against things like conkeldurr, weaville, defensive water types, defensive ttar builds, etc. While I certainly don't expect azumarill to become a stall staple, I do believe it could be an interesting add onto a few teams that run cleric support that struggle against many of the threats I listed.

Wouldn't Mega Venusaur be better overall? His 100/123/120 bulk and typing in combination with Thick Fat lets it handle most Fighting types given any coverage that they use whether be it Fire, Ice, Dark, etc. And unlike Azumarill, M-Venusaur has reliable options for recovery in the form of Synthesis and Leech seed.

EDIT

Some Calcs:

180 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 174-205 (43.06 - 50.74%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Goodness gracious)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 135-161 (33.41 - 39.85%) -- 25.68% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Venusaur: 204-240 (50.49 - 59.4%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Thick Fat Venusaur: 127-151 (31.43 - 37.37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

And that's even without Defense investments.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Wouldn't Mega Venusaur be better overall? His bulk, and typing in combination with Thick Fat lets it handle most Fighting types given any coverage that they use whether be it Fire, Ice, Dark, etc. And unlike Azumarill, M-Venusaur has reliable options for recovery in the form of Synthesis and Leech seed.

Yes, yes it would. I always forget about thick fat.

Edit: azu would be good against things like hydreigon, charizard x and if running sap sipper, charizard y, breloom, etc that can give mvenesaur problems, but not nearly as useful as I was thinking before. I easily could have looked through this thread to see all the Mega venesaur calcs. I just got caught up in something.

 

[Tokyo Tom]

I am currently running stall and having some success with a Furfrou, Sableye, Florges defensive core and a splash of a defensive Aegislash to stall and setup on a team(The last two pokemon are pending, Evo. Dusclops, Mega Venusaur, Roserade... Whimsicott or other stallers post Pokebank?). One of the major issues I run into, however, is a lot of the fully offensive Megas, such as Lucario and Garchomp, who can turn one start ramming into my walls with almost free, and rather insane, power rush down my walls way too fast... if only there was hazards for Attack and Special Attack lowering x.x

Phys. Defensive Hippo helps for a lot of Megas. It honestly depends on the set the Megas are running though, but Hippo isn't OHKOed by +2 Close Combat from Mega Luke, and isn't 2HKOed by unboosted Outrage from Mega Garchomp (and also doesn't take much from Fire Blast), and it can retaliate with either Earthquake or Ice Fang.

A little SpDef can be put in to tank DMeteor and Aura Sphere, but you probably won't be seeing them often.

Hippo also slots in well with stall 'cuz of SR/Phazing ability and reliable recovery. If you don't like the residuals from Sand Stream (they could benefit or hinder stall), then you could opt for Sand Force, which actually has application since Mega Garchomp is often run with Sand teams (Hippo's also a decent check to DD Mega 'Tar IIRC)

 

[WashedLaundry]

What can a stall team do against magic guard users? Team with Calm Mind Clefable sweeps stall teams if it is a last mon.

Last gen I made good use of Sableye and against the old Magic Guard users Reuniclus and Alakazam. He still serves as a solid check or counter, depending on if he can avoid the Sp.Def drop from either of their Shadow Ball. Clefable is a new threat. Phazing exists but honestly bashing it with a steel move or Perish Songing it is possible. A good Unaware 'Mon can also stop it pretty cold in its tracks.

 

[Tokyo Tom]

I like using Mega 'Zor on Stall 'cuz it provides good offensive presence and can clean pretty easily once hazards wear down the opposing team (stall also naturally provides good support for 'Zor, with TSpikes wearing down bulky waters and bulky waters like Washtom to beat Fire types). SD Mega 'Zor can beat Clefable, Reuniclus, and Alakazam 1v1 (assuming no HP Fire, which is rare on them anyway).

 

[zachmac]

Tokyo Tom brought up I point I feel should be made. A stall team with 5 stallers and one offensive pokemon is still, for the most part, stall. There is nothing wrong with squeezing a revenge killer or a band/specs pokemon into the last slot to break down specific threats.

If you're desperate for a way past Reuniclus, Clefable, or Breloom, and can't find a defensive pokemon to fit onto your team, try to find an offensive pokemon that will. And since all three of those pokemon are slow, it's not too difficult to find an offensive pokemon that could check them. Specs Hydreigon, for example, could hit Reuniclus with Dark Pulse and can lure out Clefable to hit it on the switch with Flash Cannon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 278-328 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or maybe you could run a scarf latios to revenge kill Mega Charizard X. It counters/checks breloom, depending on if something is asleep, and it can keep Clefable/Reuniclus from taking advantage of their stat boosting moves and recovery with trick.

Far more possibilities open up if you don't limit yourself to entirely stall pokemon.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Yes, yes it would. I always forget about thick fat.

Edit: azu would be good against things like hydreigon, charizard x and if running sap sipper, charizard y, breloom, etc that can give mvenesaur problems, but not nearly as useful as I was thinking before. I easily could have looked through this thread to see all the Mega venesaur calcs. I just got caught up in something.

None of the mon you list poses a problem for Megasaur. Any damage inflicted can be recover with Synthesis and then retaliate with Sludge Bomb.

Last gen I made good use of Sableye and against the old Magic Guard users Reuniclus and Alakazam. He still serves as a solid check or counter, depending on if he can avoid the Sp.Def drop from either of their Shadow Ball. Clefable is a new threat. Phazing exists but honestly bashing it with a steel move or Perish Songing it is possible. A good Unaware 'Mon can also stop it pretty cold in its tracks.

What can Sableye do to them in return tho? Foul Play or Shadow Sneak do nothing so it gets beaten with that SpD drop in the end.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Skill Swap is always an option against Unaware users.

*edit* MAGIC GUARD, not unaware

 

[zachmac]

What can Sableye do to them in return tho? Foul Play or Shadow Sneak do nothing so it gets beaten with that SpD drop in the end.

Well, it also learns Night Shade and Snarl.

Snarl seems like the best option for handling those two.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Tokyo Tom brought up I point I feel should be made. A stall team with 5 stallers and one offensive pokemon is still, for the most part, stall. There is nothing wrong with squeezing a revenge killer or a band/specs pokemon into the last slot to break down specific threats.

If you're desperate for a way past Reuniclus, Clefable, or Breloom, and can't find a defensive pokemon to fit onto your team, try to find an offensive pokemon that will. And since all three of those pokemon are slow, it's not too difficult to find an offensive pokemon that could check them. Specs Hydreigon, for example, could hit Reuniclus with Dark Pulse and can lure out Clefable to hit it on the switch with Flash Cannon.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 278-328 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Or maybe you could run a scarf latios to revenge kill Mega Charizard X. It counters/checks breloom, depending on if something is asleep, and it can keep Clefable/Reuniclus from taking advantage of their stat boosting moves and recovery with trick.

Far more possibilities open up if you don't limit yourself to entirely stall pokemon.

Hydreigon is not the solution for the those mon you listed. 1) None would actually switch into Hydreigon. 2) When Hydreigon switch into them, it risks being OHKO. Mach Punch, Moonblast, Focus Blast deals 90~100%.

Trick is a good idea but Latios is not the best mon for that position tho. Take away its item and it just does not have enough power to clean up.

Well, it also learns Night Shade and Snarl.

Snarl seems like the best option for handling those two.

Snarl may deal with them 50% of the time but that makes Sableye kinda a death fodder consider Snarl does not hit anything else significant.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Perish Song, Haze, Taunt, Unaware etc are still options for Stall teams if last poke set-uppers cause you trouble.

Skill Swap is always an option against Unaware users.

*edit* MAGIC GUARD, not unaware

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-66177617 (Here is an example from AJ's team against a Reuniclus; and it is not a troll team obviously.)

I guess that battle also illustrates the importance of not having LO recoil and being from status during sweep attempts.

 

[SupremeDirt]

aj's team is actually where i got the skill swap idea. it's such a great team overall though, i love it.

 

[Tokyo Tom]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-66177617 (Here is an example from AJ's team against a Reuniclus; and it is not a troll team obviously.)

I guess that battle also illustrates the importance of not having LO recoil and being from status during sweep attempts.

To be fair, the only reason why Skill Swap worked there was because that Zzz Boom guy made some pretty questionable plays over and over again throughout the match. Also I'm not sure who AJ is but he spends way too much time complaining about hax for the replay to be enjoyable lol

Well, it also learns Night Shade and Snarl.

Snarl seems like the best option for handling those two.

And yeah Night Shade doesn't work when all of the three know Recover, and as 13 said, Snarl is pretty much only for them, making it very situational and making Foul Play better in every single other scenario. Like, you may beat those three but if you run Snarl > FP then you'll lose to a bunch of other stuff.

 

[WashedLaundry]

What can Sableye do to them in return tho? Foul Play or Shadow Sneak do nothing so it gets beaten with that SpD drop in the end.

0 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 200-236 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 164-194 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meanwhile:
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 85-100 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 84.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

(this is assuming that Reuniclus is running the Trick Room set as I haven't ran into a CM Reuniclus running Psychic/Shadow Ball in ages)

Sableye's pretty good at this. I used him last gen as a catch-all spinblocker that beat most except LO Starmie in Rain as well as a general Psychic/Ghost check or counter. TR Reuniclus is a little problematic but it's not running recovery and so it can be worn down at that point. Sableye gets a switch in and it can beat it straight-up while still being able to spam recover--again, so long as it avoids the Sp.Def drop.

EDIT: I guess I should've specified a Careful nature Sableye rather than an Impish one that seems to be becoming more popular as the generation changes.

 

[Ajwf]

To be fair, the only reason why Skill Swap worked there was because that Zzz Boom guy made some pretty questionable plays over and over again throughout the match. Also I'm not sure who AJ is but he spends way too much time complaining about hax for the replay to be enjoyable lol

That would be me :I I get haxed a lot and I hate having any sorts of hax when I'm testing.

The questionable plays he made that match were mainly staying in for so long. His Reun set was what screwed him over. Other than his Reuniculus and his Torn-t, my team wasn't going to lose to his. It was just managing risk/reward as we progressed through the match.

And he used swagki, I think I get some room to complain :(

 

[zachmac]

And yeah Night Shade doesn't work when all of the three know Recover, and as 13 said, Snarl is pretty much only for them, making it very situational and making Foul Play better in every single other scenario. Like, you may beat those three but if you run Snarl > FP then you'll lose to a bunch of other stuff.

Sableye almost always carry taunt, you know.

Recovery shouldn't be a problem.

Snarl may deal with them 50% of the time but that makes Sableye kinda a death fodder consider Snarl does not hit anything else significant.

Not for damage, no, but I can think of very few special attackers who would appreciate their special attack dropping.

Pair it up with will-o-wisp and you could potentially be bulky enough to stall it out of health. Foul Play is generally better, yes, but we can't forget that Snarl is an option if you struggle with Reuniclus.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Sableye almost always carry taunt, you know.

Recovery shouldn't be a problem.Not for damage, no, but I can think of very few special attackers who would appreciate their special attack dropping.

Pair it up with will-o-wisp and you could potentially be bulky enough to stall it out of health. Foul Play is generally better, yes, but we can't forget that Snarl is an option if you struggle with Reuniclus.

Magic Guard stops Will-o-wisp from doing damage. But yeah, Sableye handles Magic Guard users pretty well generally.

 

[zachmac]

Magic Guard stops Will-o-wisp from doing damage. But yeah, Sableye handles Magic Guard users pretty well generally.

Actually, I was counter-arguing the fact that snarl can't do anything to pokemon besides Reuniclus & Alakazam.

 

[Dragontamer]

0 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 200-236 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 164-194 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Meanwhile:
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 85-100 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- 84.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 110-130 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 96.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 114-135 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

On the other hand: 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 221-260 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alakazam wins. It needs Dazzling Gleam to deal with Dragons (lol Hydreigon), and is a more reliable move in general than Focus Blast for taking out dark types. Alakazam can go for "perfect coverage" with Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam, and then use Psyshock / Psychic for general mixed STAB attacking.

 

[WashedLaundry]

On the other hand: 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 221-260 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alakazam wins. It needs Dazzling Gleam to deal with Dragons (lol Hydreigon), and is a more reliable move in general than Focus Blast for taking out dark types. Alakazam can go for "perfect coverage" with Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam, and then use Psyshock / Psychic for general mixed STAB attacking.

I neglected Alakazam's moveset changing with the generations--mostly, I forgot it got this or would run it. My mistake.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

On the other hand: 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 221-260 (72.6 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Alakazam wins. It needs Dazzling Gleam to deal with Dragons (lol Hydreigon), and is a more reliable move in general than Focus Blast for taking out dark types. Alakazam can go for "perfect coverage" with Shadow Ball / Dazzling Gleam, and then use Psyshock / Psychic for general mixed STAB attacking.

Alakazam should never run life orb, much less dazzling gleam. Focus Sash+Magic Guard is what makes it relevant in ou and focus blast is absolutely necessary to hit tyranitar and heatran. Running dazzling gleam just for the sake of getting one cheap kill on hydreigon (which is barely seen and still ohkoed by focus blast lol) is not worth it at all.

 

[IInative]

Magic Guard stops Will-o-wisp from doing damage. But yeah, Sableye handles Magic Guard users pretty well generally.

Prankster @ Sableye is better, prankster makes its moves go first. Will-O-Wisp helps Sableye take on its physical enemy.

Sableye.

 

[CyclicCompound]

Prankster @ Sableye is better, prankster makes its moves go first. Will-O-Wisp helps Sableye take on its physical enemy.

They were saying that Alakazam has Magic Guard, not Sableye.

 

[56k]

I used Zam on the ladder today and it was pretty good and pretty fun. I used:

Alakazam@Alakazamite
Magic Guard -> Trace
Modest
252 HP / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
-Calm Mind
-Recover
-Psyshock
-Dazzling Gleam

Faster than Noivern (and Greninja, Latis, ScarfTar, Chomp, Gengar, Lucario...) after MegaEvolve. Faster than base 95s, but SOOOO bluffable, before that.

Everything else on your team needs to be geared towards fending off Scizor, TTar, Aegislash, Talonflame, Pinsir, Genesect, ScarfChomp, Dragonite, and Ferrothorn.

Zam+Heatran+BulkyGround is a good core, and Zam+Heatran+Rotom-W is a good core too. I think he is good, useable, fun, decent, not bad, rewarding, trolly, and finnicky. Not dead weight, not set up fodder, not a waste of your mega slot. He will only get better when more things get banned. Best moment was tracing multiscale off a weakened dragonite and dazzling it while tanking extremespeed for only 25%. Worst moment was being outsped and ohko'd by a LO jolteon shadow ball.

 

[Tactical]

So, what do we do about Manaphy? I'm completely at a loss on how to handle this thing now that they let it out of Ubers.