So your idea of making me look silly is to take extremely one sided calcs and say bam garchomp OP! In rain, kingdra outspeeds most Pokemon and kills a significant portion of the OU tier, but it has to have rain up to be effective. Garchomp is a similarly used in your calcs. Sure garchomp can do a lot of damage before a swords dance or rain, but if you were able to get to plus 2, one of two things had to happen. Your opponent got a free switch into a decent check or counter or your opponent stayed in and hit you with an attack to put you into gene sect/talonflame range. If you were using scarf, they could easily figure that out based on how you play the garchomp and play around it. Also, I would like to point out that I did not say anything about garchomp not being amazing. It is one of the top ten threats in OU, but I just don't see it as an s rank threat.Megas are conditional too, the requirement is a fuckin mega stone, remember? that thing you put on your gengar before it got banned?
Let me tell you the amount of checks and counters of the 3 'good' offensive sweeping chomp variations, not even the mega form
Base/Original Set: SD aqua tail chomp in the rain
Yache Chomp:
Checks: latis & scarf dragons
counters: I'll leave that one for the end of the 2nd set since their power level is the same
Haban Chomp:
Checks: strong ice shards, weavile
Counters:
*Inside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 170-201 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong in Rain: 192-226 (56.8 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 308-363 (82.3 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss in Rain: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Life Orb variation outside of rain:
Checks: Ice Shards, Scarf Dragons, Weavile & the latis
Counters:
*Outside of rain calcs*
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 266-315 (71.1 - 84.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 191-225 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Togekiss Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 234-276 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 166-196 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Overall, this is just a weak argument imo, it has no counters, it can just switch an item and it losses/gains a whole new group of checks, and overall, it's good. Whether it be Setting up SR, revenging, banded powerhousing, SD sweeping or walling stuff, garchomp is just really hard to stop from doing what it wants for it's team.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
Yea, especially since there are Pokemon that are basically only used in their mega form and ones that fill different roles after they mega evolve. I am thinking of Gyarados for example, The loss of Intimidate and the pretty drastical change of typing changes how it is used and what it does. Mega Lucario for example will most likely mega-evolve the first turn, since the mega does exactly what the normal form does, but with better stats, while Gyarados for example does not instantly mega evolve, because of how good an ability Intimidate is and the normal form puts in different work for the team than the Mega.
tl,dr: there are some megas that are basically 2 different pokemon throughout a match and i think there shouldn't be a distinction for some.
There are so much false claims in this post so let me address them all:
- First I did not try to make you look silly, it's called a debate, not a circlejerk where everybody agrees with you
- 2nd, these calcs are not 1 sided, none of them can KO garchomp back, and these are extremely normal to happen, rain is up, bring in chomp on something like heatran or ttar (if your toed was slower than their tar you should have gotten the easy rain up), you SD when they switch, you hit them hard and rinse and repeat, it's not like I'm saying +6, calm your tits
- Kingdra and garchomp are extremely different. Garchomp doesn't have to use rain at all It's just one way it can beat it's counters into a pulp unlike kingdra who either goes crit dra set or is unviable after rain ends
- Talonflame doesn't even kill dude (252+ Atk Sky Plate Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 196-232 (54.7 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO it needs SEVERE weakening), garchomp is one of the bulkiest SD sweepers/set up sweepers in the metagame. And gene bombs yache chomp at best (+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Yache Berry Garchomp: 166.1-205.9 (46.4 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
- Yes I know you don't see it as an S rank threat that's why we're debating
guys omg chill the fuck out it's a viability rankings thread
garchomp is a very good pokemon, but the prominence of its checks and counters limit it. genesect, gliscor, greninja, ferrothorn, azumarill...the list goes on. the fact that it's checks are so common make it almost impossible to call an s rank.
garchomp is a very good pokemon, but the prominence of its checks and counters limit it. genesect, gliscor, greninja, ferrothorn, azumarill...the list goes on. the fact that it's checks are so common make it almost impossible to call an s rank.
huh, honko must have messed up for me, thanks for the correction ^_^!
Dude, gliscor isn't even a check (+2 252 Atk Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 254-300 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO add rain or LO and you nkow what you get, also outrage does the same amount after STAB), what's this talk about azumarill? +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 393-463 (97.2 - 114.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO, ferrothorn is lol: +2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 195-229 (55.3 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, yes I get your point, but come on, saying mega luke, talonflame or even genesect don't have a fair amount of checks is lying to yourself tbh.
"The fact that it's checks are so common make it almost impossible to call it S rank"
gen V keldeo, gen V jirachi and more had tons of more hard counters, and guess where they are S. Garchomp fits in perfectly with the S crew, the only reason most of the S rank are even up there is pure XY hype and most of them should be in A+ anyways. Garchomp was a titan of gen 4 and gen 5, and will imo always be a top tier powerhouse titan. Sure it has checks but so do most of S rank, here are overall garchomps checks: powerful faster ice moves like greninja or genesect's ice beam, depending on the resist berry; strong ice shards or fast dragon moves or both if you're LO, and that's mostly it, it's a bigger problem in actual battle but so are mega lukes checks. The fact of how garchomp uses it's coverage and it's weather so well makes it a good fit on near any team fire blast/fang on sun, aqua tail on rain, stone edge and possibly a mega in sand, stone edge on weatherless etc. And there's also a fact that none of it's so called counters either die to coverage or are set up fodder for it. Overall this thing is just a beast and fits into the S crew very well, having strength, bulk, versatility and just good-ness. Give the pirate, landshark, dragon, explorer, uncounterable, non surfing, mega evolving, outrage spamming, sneaky stones setting, guy a break.
I'm not seeing the problem with ranking Mega forms separately. If this were a discussion about tiering, this would be a whole different argument since tiers are so much more mathematical and statistical. However, this is just a subjective ranking of Pokemon based on the consensus of their viability from the competitive community's input. Ranking things differently will have no functional impact on how the game is played, nor will it likely make an impact on how we tier Pokemon with Mega forms.
I know there have been a lot of people saying things like, "Ranking Mega forms separately would be like ranking Pokemon X with item A and item B separately," but that's just not true. Mega forms are so much more drastic a change than swapping items. All Mega Pokemon have stat increases over their base forms, a few have a stat drop, most have different abilities, and several even have different types. Even in the case of Soul Dew, a similarly exclusive item, the only real change is a stat boost to SpA and SpD. There's not even a sprite change or any external action taken to activate the change (i.e. the "Mega Evolution" button), so it's very hard to consider them to be the same thing.
As far as the different transformations go, you have to remember that Mega forms have a lot more in common with Arceus's forms (which were ranked separately) than Meloetta's (which were not). Like Arceus's transformations, a Mega transformation is permanent. The item that causes it can also not be removed with Knock Off, Trick, etc., similar to Arceus's plates. Meloetta's transformation is activated through the use of a particular move, and it can be undone simply by using the move again. Once Meloetta has transformed, it is not locked into its Pirouette form like Mega forms and Arceus forms are. There's even a unique mechanic to activate a Mega transformation, which makes it different than either of the other transformations and gives us reason to create a new precedent.
You also have to realize that most Mega forms are significantly more or less viable than their natural forms. In fact, many Pokemon are used in OU exclusively for their Mega form (such as Kangaskhan before its ban), and these instances need to be represented as such. You might argue that Mega Charizard X is slightly more viable than Mega Charizard Y, while regular Charizard doesn't have any real viability in OU, and so this needs to be demonstrated in the rankings. Meloetta doesn't have this same problem. Meloetta wasn't used solely for its Pirouette form, nor did it have an incentive to transform immediately because its Aria form was so much worse. Both forms had their advantages and disadvantages, and both were viable. Many Mega forms, however, are so much more different. Several such as Ampharos, Charizard, and Pinsir would have never seen the light of OU if not for their Mega forms, and thus it doesn't make much sense to tier these guys as a whole when the only reason they are any good is their ability to change into an almost completely different Pokemon. Likewise, a few normal forms might be even more viable than their Mega forms, and so this honestly needs to be reflected in the rankings.
But again, this is just a subjective ranking, so it's not like tiering Mega forms differently actually hurts the game.
I know there have been a lot of people saying things like, "Ranking Mega forms separately would be like ranking Pokemon X with item A and item B separately," but that's just not true. Mega forms are so much more drastic a change than swapping items. All Mega Pokemon have stat increases over their base forms, a few have a stat drop, most have different abilities, and several even have different types. Even in the case of Soul Dew, a similarly exclusive item, the only real change is a stat boost to SpA and SpD. There's not even a sprite change or any external action taken to activate the change (i.e. the "Mega Evolution" button), so it's very hard to consider them to be the same thing.
As far as the different transformations go, you have to remember that Mega forms have a lot more in common with Arceus's forms (which were ranked separately) than Meloetta's (which were not). Like Arceus's transformations, a Mega transformation is permanent. The item that causes it can also not be removed with Knock Off, Trick, etc., similar to Arceus's plates. Meloetta's transformation is activated through the use of a particular move, and it can be undone simply by using the move again. Once Meloetta has transformed, it is not locked into its Pirouette form like Mega forms and Arceus forms are. There's even a unique mechanic to activate a Mega transformation, which makes it different than either of the other transformations and gives us reason to create a new precedent.
You also have to realize that most Mega forms are significantly more or less viable than their natural forms. In fact, many Pokemon are used in OU exclusively for their Mega form (such as Kangaskhan before its ban), and these instances need to be represented as such. You might argue that Mega Charizard X is slightly more viable than Mega Charizard Y, while regular Charizard doesn't have any real viability in OU, and so this needs to be demonstrated in the rankings. Meloetta doesn't have this same problem. Meloetta wasn't used solely for its Pirouette form, nor did it have an incentive to transform immediately because its Aria form was so much worse. Both forms had their advantages and disadvantages, and both were viable. Many Mega forms, however, are so much more different. Several such as Ampharos, Charizard, and Pinsir would have never seen the light of OU if not for their Mega forms, and thus it doesn't make much sense to tier these guys as a whole when the only reason they are any good is their ability to change into an almost completely different Pokemon. Likewise, a few normal forms might be even more viable than their Mega forms, and so this honestly needs to be reflected in the rankings.
But again, this is just a subjective ranking, so it's not like tiering Mega forms differently actually hurts the game.
Those calcs are incredibly one-sided and disregard Azumarill's priority, Ferrothorn's Leech Seed, Garchomp not carrying Aqua Tail, and the likelyhood of Garchomp not to be set up. Keldeo had half the counters of Garchomp and they weren't even like 75% because of how many options it had. Jirachi was THE utility Pokemon and had a basically infinite amount of options so it could be adapted to fit every team.
You have to take into account that circumstances may not be optimal on both sides when determining a Pokemon's rank based off calcs. Anyone can throw out a list of calcs. How much and how often they affect a real-game scenario is an entirely different story.
You have to take into account that circumstances may not be optimal on both sides when determining a Pokemon's rank based off calcs. Anyone can throw out a list of calcs. How much and how often they affect a real-game scenario is an entirely different story.
Azumarill's priority is doing jack shit, fine you want them to be both no boosts, equal footing, and if we're being so realistic, I guess i shouldn't tune the ferrothorn spread in favor of itself and use the more realistic sdef spread?
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 169-200 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 126-148 (35.1 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
garchomp should always use aqua tail or stone edge, it's the perfect and one of the only good last slot fillers other than sub
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 166-198 (46.8 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and no keldeo was not that scary, keldeo had: jellicent, celebi, amoongus, latias, suicune and much more, msot of them couldn't be beaten, but it was still amazing
and no I'm not getting worked up abuot this because I know you're going to use that like you did last time, this is my natural way of how I talk on the internet
this is mainly how Fighting game Characters are classed S+ is for characters in this case pokemon who is able to do its job with ease and has a good matchup against almost every character(Pokmeon) while dealing good damage and mind game where you can guess wrong everytime and lose quickly. obviously this isnt a fighting game but i hope this doesnt interfere with the current flow of competitive pokemon. like OU and NU being removed to put all pokemon on a class list from high tier to low lier.
Conkeldurr B===>A/A+ The Assualt Vest set with Guts is a fantastic tank and status absorber. It's a great Genesect counter and only a handful of things like Azumarril and Skarmory can reliably switch into it.
Tyranitar A===>A+ This guy is easily the most versatile pokemon in OU. I've had the most success with the banded set. With Steel no longer resisting Dark you can literally just spam crunch on nearly everything. After rocks you get guaranteed OHKOs on both Excadril and Genesect with Crunch. Plus it easily revenges Aegislash, and Pursuit traps choice locked Talonflame.
Tyranitar A===>A+ This guy is easily the most versatile pokemon in OU. I've had the most success with the banded set. With Steel no longer resisting Dark you can literally just spam crunch on nearly everything. After rocks you get guaranteed OHKOs on both Excadril and Genesect with Crunch. Plus it easily revenges Aegislash, and Pursuit traps choice locked Talonflame.
Last edited:
Skarmory B+===>A rank.
Skarmory can still wall almost all physical threats (except a few ridiculously powerful mons like mega-lucario) and has gained a new use as a defog user this gen. Unlike most defog users, skarmory takes neutral damage from stealth rock and can come in a large variety of mons. Additionally it can whirlwind away whatever tries to set up on it. You can even add stealth rock to the defog set if you want everything hazard related on one mon. Contrary to common belief, this isn't dumb as you don't have to use both.
Skarmory is able to do its job (as a defensive pivot, a phazer, a stealth rock setter, or a defogger) most of the time, under common conditions.
Also, Talonflame S===> A+/A rank.
Talonflame has priority brave bird, swords dance, and good speed which is definitely enough to make it A+ or A rank. However it does have a few flaws noticeable enough to not be classified as S-rank. The most obvious of these is the stealth rock weakness, but this is actually the easiest to cover for especially with the advent of defog. Moving on, Talonflame has relatively low Attack for a sweeper or even a revenge killer. Common pokes such as Rotom-w/h, Heatran, Tyranitar, defensive Gyrados can straight out counter it, while other pokes such sand rush/surprise scarf Excadrill, scarf Terrakion, scarf Genesect, can check it and OHKO.
Banded Tyranitar check-mates Talonflame as it can easily switch in to any of its moves (choice locked or not) and OHKO with pursuit 68.8% of the time counting one turn of sandstorm damage (for 124 HP Talonflame). However, if Tyranitar comes in on a brave bird or flare blitz, pursuit is OHKO, guaranteed.
Skarmory can still wall almost all physical threats (except a few ridiculously powerful mons like mega-lucario) and has gained a new use as a defog user this gen. Unlike most defog users, skarmory takes neutral damage from stealth rock and can come in a large variety of mons. Additionally it can whirlwind away whatever tries to set up on it. You can even add stealth rock to the defog set if you want everything hazard related on one mon. Contrary to common belief, this isn't dumb as you don't have to use both.
Skarmory is able to do its job (as a defensive pivot, a phazer, a stealth rock setter, or a defogger) most of the time, under common conditions.
Also, Talonflame S===> A+/A rank.
Talonflame has priority brave bird, swords dance, and good speed which is definitely enough to make it A+ or A rank. However it does have a few flaws noticeable enough to not be classified as S-rank. The most obvious of these is the stealth rock weakness, but this is actually the easiest to cover for especially with the advent of defog. Moving on, Talonflame has relatively low Attack for a sweeper or even a revenge killer. Common pokes such as Rotom-w/h, Heatran, Tyranitar, defensive Gyrados can straight out counter it, while other pokes such sand rush/surprise scarf Excadrill, scarf Terrakion, scarf Genesect, can check it and OHKO.
Banded Tyranitar check-mates Talonflame as it can easily switch in to any of its moves (choice locked or not) and OHKO with pursuit 68.8% of the time counting one turn of sandstorm damage (for 124 HP Talonflame). However, if Tyranitar comes in on a brave bird or flare blitz, pursuit is OHKO, guaranteed.
Last edited:
While garchomp doesn't have many counters, it has so many checks due to not being that fast. So while it isn't the easiest thing to switch into, it is very easy for offensive teams to revenge kill it. It's not really a sweeper, more of a wall breaker due to how easy it is to rk. Also Dragontamer I said uu...
Otherwise, these rankings look good, although I don't see why terrakion is A+, gliscor and lando t are common, and aegislash is an amazing answer to its stabs. Seems a rank to me. I would also like to see excadrill stay, rapid spin isn't that great, especially since that fatass gourgeist blocks him all day.
Otherwise, these rankings look good, although I don't see why terrakion is A+, gliscor and lando t are common, and aegislash is an amazing answer to its stabs. Seems a rank to me. I would also like to see excadrill stay, rapid spin isn't that great, especially since that fatass gourgeist blocks him all day.
Rain is not what it used to be at all, so it is another turn of setup that makes it difficult to setup. I used kingdra as an example of why setup isn't always easy, although I admit it was a weak one and as I thought I said but apparently didn't, kingdra is not at all on the same level as garchomp, that I admitted was a top ten threat. My mention of talonflame and genesect was to mention that if worn down, chomp would be in ko range of talonflame and gene sect, two of the most common revenge killers in the tier, not to say that either of those two are truly checks to yache chomp. Your life orb calcs were solid, but life orb allows things like mamoswine to take but chomp. Your in rain stats leave out the main reason garchomp ever uses fore blast too, ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is a counter to every single chomp not carrying something like fire blast. Although, just having fire blast in its move pool is enough to scare away a lot of potential threats. I've rambled on for far too long now. On to why I think its A not S.
Garchomp has a bit of 4mss. Not as bad as something like banette or lucario, but still. Garchomp is relatively easy to burn because of things like rotom w (if it can be used against zygarde it can be used against chomp, not that you in in particular used it against chomp). Garchomp has no reliable recovery to speak of and takes a lot of neutral hits, so anything that out speeds it can help wear it down if checks are gone. 102 speed is really good, but things like latios, greninja, and m-lucario all out speed and threaten to take out most if not all of chomps HP depending on Evs and items. Chomp isn't really built for sweeping because of the relative ease of wearing down chomp with faster threats. Chomp does however wear down a lot of top tier walls fairly easily after a swords dance and is great at opening up sweeping opportunities for others. Chomps is also a decent late game cleaner due to its high attack stat, usable speed and above average bulk.
I'm sorry if I sound mad in my previous post, it was honestly not intended to read that way.
I concede on Azumarill's priority -- just don't forget that it DOES have Ice Punch, and Garchomp isn't KOing.
Ferrothorn often runs a physically defensive or mixed defensive spread, so that's not exactly a fair assessment.
Keldeo could break through Jellicent with its CM, Celebi with Expert Belt HP Bug, and even Latias with Icy Wind + HP Ghost/Bug OR all of them with the ever-common Pursuit support. There exists no such support which can down so many of Garchomp's counters. There isn't a 'much more' for Keldeo either, j/s.
Garchomp's best checks: Skarmory (bar Fire Blast), Forretress (bar Fire Blast), Ferrothorn (bar Fire Blast and not the SDef set), Togekiss, Landorus-T, Mamoswine, Mega Venusaur
Garchomp's other checks: Anything that resists/is immune to Outrage or Earthquake, is faster with an Ice- or Dragon-type attack, or has a strong/boosted priority move (a lot)
Keldeo also had one thing Garchomp did not: the benefit of perma rain to boost its powerful attacks.
I'll name some I haven't seen yet:
Haxorus ==> B Rank: Still the powerhouse it was last gen, and a very reliable wall breaker. Sitting at a decent speed tier with Taunt gives it a pretty respectable niche in shutting down support mons and setting up Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. It can even make a pretty decent lead with Taunt and a Focus Sash. Mold Breaker with EQ is pretty effective, and it even has poison jab to surprise fairies trying to wall it. Frailty and lack of speed or priority makes it outclassed by Dragonite but still pretty useful.
Staraptor ==> B- Rank: Talonflame has better STAB typing and Gale Wings, but Scarf Staraptor actually hits harder than Choice Band Talonflame thanks to Reckless, making it an effective sweeper/ wallbreaker in its own right. It also doesn't fear SR as much and can actually deal with the omnipresent Rotom-W. Its speed and attack stat are outclassed by other scarfers and it loathes priority, but adequate support can still make it a very dangerous poke.
Exploud ==> C+ Rank: Crazy powerful Boomburst and a good move pool make it a decent special wall breaker. It has enough bulk when invested to take a hit or two and really leave some scars in the process. Usually seen with choice specs to make up for its lacking stats means it can be pretty predictable and revenge killed easily, making it outclassed by faster, more powerful pokes like Chandelure or Hydreigon. Still, spammable Boomburst is nothing to sneeze at.
Crawdaunt ==> B+ Rank: With Dark no longer resisted by Steel, Knock Off can hit almost anything like a truck and disrupt your opponent's strategy at the same time. While Rain isn't seen as often, it's still viable, meaning you can power up Aqua Jet and Crabhammer to impressive levels. It also has Swords Dance and Dragon Dance to boost as well, giving it an edge over Azumarill, who otherwise outclasses Crawdaunt. Lack of bulk and speed hold it back, but Crawdaunt is a force this gen, given adequate support.
Gastrodon ==> C Rank: Gastrodon lost its niche in walling the Rain teams of gen 5, but it can still support its team with toxic/ scald. Good bulk and reliable recovery lets it take hits and spread status. It also walls the crap out of Rotom-W. The rise of grass types like Mega Venusaur and Trevenant don't help it, but it can still be a good poke to have around.
Haxorus ==> B Rank: Still the powerhouse it was last gen, and a very reliable wall breaker. Sitting at a decent speed tier with Taunt gives it a pretty respectable niche in shutting down support mons and setting up Swords Dance or Dragon Dance. It can even make a pretty decent lead with Taunt and a Focus Sash. Mold Breaker with EQ is pretty effective, and it even has poison jab to surprise fairies trying to wall it. Frailty and lack of speed or priority makes it outclassed by Dragonite but still pretty useful.
Staraptor ==> B- Rank: Talonflame has better STAB typing and Gale Wings, but Scarf Staraptor actually hits harder than Choice Band Talonflame thanks to Reckless, making it an effective sweeper/ wallbreaker in its own right. It also doesn't fear SR as much and can actually deal with the omnipresent Rotom-W. Its speed and attack stat are outclassed by other scarfers and it loathes priority, but adequate support can still make it a very dangerous poke.
Exploud ==> C+ Rank: Crazy powerful Boomburst and a good move pool make it a decent special wall breaker. It has enough bulk when invested to take a hit or two and really leave some scars in the process. Usually seen with choice specs to make up for its lacking stats means it can be pretty predictable and revenge killed easily, making it outclassed by faster, more powerful pokes like Chandelure or Hydreigon. Still, spammable Boomburst is nothing to sneeze at.
Crawdaunt ==> B+ Rank: With Dark no longer resisted by Steel, Knock Off can hit almost anything like a truck and disrupt your opponent's strategy at the same time. While Rain isn't seen as often, it's still viable, meaning you can power up Aqua Jet and Crabhammer to impressive levels. It also has Swords Dance and Dragon Dance to boost as well, giving it an edge over Azumarill, who otherwise outclasses Crawdaunt. Lack of bulk and speed hold it back, but Crawdaunt is a force this gen, given adequate support.
Gastrodon ==> C Rank: Gastrodon lost its niche in walling the Rain teams of gen 5, but it can still support its team with toxic/ scald. Good bulk and reliable recovery lets it take hits and spread status. It also walls the crap out of Rotom-W. The rise of grass types like Mega Venusaur and Trevenant don't help it, but it can still be a good poke to have around.
I think bisharp is good at B, needs a bit of support and it can be worked around. Maybe B+ though, as the knock off buff really helped out.
Ok, if we do everything that has been said so far then we will end up like last gen where everything was way too high and it took ages to balance out. I'm going to address everything that has been said since ginganinja s post.
(By the way, Talonflame is at both S and A+ ranks and people are arguing about it)
-Empoleon
Empoleon is not B rank. It can function in OU, but it has so many checks it's not funny. Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, the ever present Rotom-W, Keldeo, Breloom, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, all common threats in the metagame. Yes, its typing is good, but its middling stats prevent it from being an effective force in the metagame. Plus, we shouldn't just try to rank less viable Pokemon because we can, we should start with common, threatening ones as the list is still a WIP.
-Rotom-H
While I agree that Rotom-H is pretty good this gen, it is certainly not A rank. It can not sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, or provide valuable support. It counters the ubiquitous Genesect, sure, Aegislash and Mega Lucario too, and yes it can absorb Paralysis and Burn, but it is Stealth Rock weak, as well as weak to the common Water-type, and Rotom-W has many valuable advantages over it such as better typing and STAB move. I would say Rotom-H is B+, or A- at the most. No higher.
-Heracross (Mega)
Heracross can be pushed to A. Remember Skill Link Cloyster? Think of one with better coverage, more multi-hit moves and a monstrous Attack stat.
-Ditto
Ditto for B? No. Ditto can stay as low as possible, thank you very much. And to those mentioning Shuckle? Go away.
-Dugtrio
Dugtrio is interesting, because it stills fills a given niche, which has always been quite effective; being able to trap is nothing to scoff at, and it does have high speed and good coverage. I would personally say B-.
-Entei
Just because Entei got Sacred Fire does not mean "oh lel immediately viable". I'm sure we need more time to determine it, but this doesn't mean it will be good in OU. Remember why it sucked last gen? Now does Sacred Fire remedy any of those reasons?
-Bisharp
I strongly disagree with making Bisharp A rank. Yes Defog and Sticky Web benefit it. Yes, Knock Off was buffed. But that 4x weakness is common. Bisharp needs a lot of support to get to +2, and it's not doing anything if it isn't there. Somewhere in the B rank is fine, but it's worse than Mandibuzz, who is a solid B+. Don't get me wrong, I love Bisharp, but it is not the top-tier, metagame threat that things like Landorus-I or Mega Pinsir are.
-Donphan
Come on, in the Excadrill-less meta, Donphan was still outclassed. Now that Excadrill is back, there is absolutely no reason to ever use Donphan. Ice Shard? STABless? This thing is D rank.
As for the mega debate, what ginganinja has is fine, there's no point trying to disagree with it, it doesn't really matter.
(By the way, Talonflame is at both S and A+ ranks and people are arguing about it)
-Empoleon
Empoleon is not B rank. It can function in OU, but it has so many checks it's not funny. Ferrothorn, Kyurem-B, the ever present Rotom-W, Keldeo, Breloom, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Thundurus-T, all common threats in the metagame. Yes, its typing is good, but its middling stats prevent it from being an effective force in the metagame. Plus, we shouldn't just try to rank less viable Pokemon because we can, we should start with common, threatening ones as the list is still a WIP.
-Rotom-H
While I agree that Rotom-H is pretty good this gen, it is certainly not A rank. It can not sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, or provide valuable support. It counters the ubiquitous Genesect, sure, Aegislash and Mega Lucario too, and yes it can absorb Paralysis and Burn, but it is Stealth Rock weak, as well as weak to the common Water-type, and Rotom-W has many valuable advantages over it such as better typing and STAB move. I would say Rotom-H is B+, or A- at the most. No higher.
-Heracross (Mega)
Heracross can be pushed to A. Remember Skill Link Cloyster? Think of one with better coverage, more multi-hit moves and a monstrous Attack stat.
-Ditto
Ditto for B? No. Ditto can stay as low as possible, thank you very much. And to those mentioning Shuckle? Go away.
-Dugtrio
Dugtrio is interesting, because it stills fills a given niche, which has always been quite effective; being able to trap is nothing to scoff at, and it does have high speed and good coverage. I would personally say B-.
-Entei
Just because Entei got Sacred Fire does not mean "oh lel immediately viable". I'm sure we need more time to determine it, but this doesn't mean it will be good in OU. Remember why it sucked last gen? Now does Sacred Fire remedy any of those reasons?
-Bisharp
I strongly disagree with making Bisharp A rank. Yes Defog and Sticky Web benefit it. Yes, Knock Off was buffed. But that 4x weakness is common. Bisharp needs a lot of support to get to +2, and it's not doing anything if it isn't there. Somewhere in the B rank is fine, but it's worse than Mandibuzz, who is a solid B+. Don't get me wrong, I love Bisharp, but it is not the top-tier, metagame threat that things like Landorus-I or Mega Pinsir are.
-Donphan
Come on, in the Excadrill-less meta, Donphan was still outclassed. Now that Excadrill is back, there is absolutely no reason to ever use Donphan. Ice Shard? STABless? This thing is D rank.
As for the mega debate, what ginganinja has is fine, there's no point trying to disagree with it, it doesn't really matter.
-Ditto
Ditto is legitimately good in this metagame, XY is much more favorable due to the amount of lol weak to themselves sweepers are popular, and just saying "lolno because, well, it's ditto" with 0 evidence is a really bad argument
-Entei
This is wrong, entei never sucked last gen, but nobody use it, please stop associating lower tiers with lower viability. sacred fire gives it a niche, which it desperately needed, and well, it burns 50% of the time while attacking while being usable with assault vest! that's pretty damn good
I explained why I thought it was C+ and you only hit on one of the many points I made. Donphan was never bad and as I explained it is bulkier than excadrill and hits significantly harder than forretress. The priority may be weak, but you can use, oh I don't know, knock-off if you don't want ice shard. It now can beat many frail spin blockers like gengar and has more utility than excadrill on top of the extra bulk I already mentioned. If you want to argue something, don't ignore previous arguments in order to make yourself sound smart. And the C rank is for viable Pokemon who are somewhat outclassed but still fills a niche anyway, so that basically describes donphan in a nutshell to me.
Entei DID suck last Gen, it had next to nothing going for it (In OU), which meant it got fuck all use in OU. That said, its certainly better now than it was due to Assault Vest and Sacred Fire, so ill evaluate that when tiering it.
We could do that, but that's boring
No, it literally supports YOU while trying to get +2, because it discourages Defog from being used. It doesn't need any support at all except hazards for the opponent to try to Defog away. Bisharp is one of the most kick-as Pokemon in the game right now, and definitely deserves to be at least B+ (I would say A-, but there is no A- atm). It removes items with Knock Off, provides powerful priority support with Sucker Punch, and did I mention it discourages Defog? Cause that's pretty big. Next to Deoxys and Lucario, this thing is the face of hyper offense, and deserves to be ranked as such.
It was outclassed more than sucked, that's what I meant
There doesn't need to be an argument about why Ditto is bad in OU, of course it can Transform into things, that's not the point, it's dead weight against stall, it has to predict against teams without entirely offensive presence, it has to run a Scarf to do anything which makes it incredibly easy to play around, it's HP is really bad, it is incredibly predictable when seen on an opposing team, and it it can be played around with substitute / not bringing your setup sweeper out / switching prediction or even just general wearing down with priority.
As for Entei, it wasn't bad last gen in RU, but there was a reason people didn't use it in UU / OU. Sacred Fire is a buff, but it is more of a shiny new toy than anything. "A desperately needed niche". It's a more powerful STAB that burns half of the time. Good, but not a "desperately needed niche". It did suck last gen. Entei has a Stealth Rock weakness, a shallow movepool, competes against Arcanine, who, though not having Sacred Fire, can Morning Sun off Flare Blitzes, plus can actually go mixed effectively. It is also walled by a plethora of bulky Water-types, which you can't say are uncommon.
Donphan was never bad was it? Ok then. It is bulkier than Excadrill, but it has a worse defensive typing. It hit's harder than Forretress but Forretress can set up hazards easier. Knock Off. Removing items is good, but STABless just like Ice Shard is just really weak. Most spinners have tools to beat spinblockers, but Donphan can beat frail ones? Cool. More utility than Excadrill? Exacdrill can set up SR against Magic Bouncers, EQ levitators, it can use Sand Rush effectively, beat almost all spinblockers with Shadow Claw, Iron Head Fairies, has higher Attacking power and a better typing.
Actually, I do agree with this. I concur with these points and I was a bit hasty to say otherwise. Bisharp is quite good is this meta and I don't know what I was thinking, but I have looked back on it and I guess B+ / A- would be appropriate. Sorry :)
- Status