Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[ginganinja]

It's not a matter of being outclassed its a matter of performance. I personally do not believe Rotom-W is S in the current meta.

I'll just list everything I think should be what it is
Empoleon ===> B-
Mega Heracross(Heracross) ===> A
Rotom-H ===>A-
Bisharp B ===> A
Rotom-W S ===> A+

Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated

Consider this a general warning to everyone. Please back up your lists with evidence / logic etc, not only does this assist in creating better discussion because people can discuss your main points (leading to a better Tier list), but it also assists me since I can weigh up individual arguments and then make a decision based of your (and other) posts.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Mega Venusaur for S-rank.

I almost agree. There's about 5 pokemon that it can't wall, so it can wall the majority of the metagame with ease, but I wouldn't say his strengths completely overshadow his flaw. At least A+

It's not a matter of being outclassed its a matter of performance. I personally do not believe Rotom-W is S in the current meta.

I'll just list everything I think should be what it is
Empoleon ===> B-
Mega Heracross(Heracross) ===> A
Rotom-H ===>A-
Bisharp B ===> A
Rotom-W S ===> A+

Rotom easily provides the support with the "very little opportunity cost", and it can serve multiple roles as its offensive and defensive viability make it a threat past its support moves. Since it can do all of that, and its not outclassed by other pokes, I agree with its S ranking

 

[Magnemite]

It's not a matter of being outclassed its a matter of performance. I personally do not believe Rotom-W is S in the current meta.

I'll just list everything I think should be what it is
Empoleon ===> B-
Mega Heracross(Heracross) ===> A
Rotom-H ===>A-
Bisharp B ===> A
Rotom-W S ===> A+

So he asks you to be more specific and you respond by being far less specific? Just stating your opinion without backing it up is meaningless. Rotom-Wash isn't as obviously S-rank as the other S-ranks on the surface, but in reality this metagame is perfect for it. It is able to both wall and be excellent partners with a ton of great Pokemon in this metagame, all while having very few disadvantageous matchups and never losing momentum.

 

[Ajwf]

S-class are the absolute gods of the tiers, reserved for those pokemon who represent an immediate and overwhelming threat to any team. They have whole teams built around them or make pokemon viable simply by their exsistance. Rotom does none of that. Politoed last gen, for example, was a whole playstyle, as was tyranitar. Keldeo was an instant threat to any team as it was effortlessly a mixed attacker that could destroy all but the fewest pokemon, destroying pokemon that even resisted the hits.

Rotom is fine in A class. He's not overly powerful, but he has good bulk and a good typing. He fits onto many teams but he can't really be said to be the focal point of any team. He's a utility counter that can stop a lot of the metagame but is susceptible to getting worn down.

 

[Molk]

I'm actually really surprised that Sylveon is listed as low as C rank, and personally i think that it's deserving of something around B/B- rank. Admittedly, i don't have *that* much experience using Sylveon myself, but i've definitely seen it perform well when used against me, and i've heard very good things about its performance from other users who have used it extensively. Mono Fairy is a pretty good typing to be honest, and it benefits Sylveon greatly, giving it valuable resistances/immunities to things like Dragon, Dark, and Fighting, and giving it a solid STAB to use offensively. Aside from the typing itself, Sylveon's raw special bulk simply cannot be overlooked, 95/130 is absolutely immense, and because of a combination of that and Sylveon's Fairy-type, it has no problem switching into and sponging the hits of various special attackers, such as Thundurus, Keldeo (even specs keldeo has trouble 2HKOing this after rocks iirc lol), and Greninja over the course of a match. Sylveon doesn't just sponge hits though, as it has plenty of utility outside of simply sitting there and taking repeated hits in the form of a decently sized Wish and heal bell, allowing it to perform as an effective cleric and heal its teammates effectively. Outside of pure support Sylveon has quite a bit of power for a defensive Pokemon, base 110 Special Attack is more than enough to make a mark on the opponent, even without any kind of investment and Pixilate Hyper Voice provides Sylveon with a 117 BP STAB move with no drawbacks, with the ability to attack through subs to boot! Of course Sylveon recieves competition from the other Fairy-types in the tier such as Togekiss and Clefable, but Sylveon has its perks over both, having significantly better Special Bulk than both fairies, while also hitting significantly harder than both thanks to Pixilate Hyper Voice (its also not weak to Stealth Rock like Togekiss is, which is of course a plus). I'd say Sylveon is a pretty solid Pokemon in its own right, and i think it definitely deserves more than C rank, especially considering sylveon is way better than Pokemon like Malamar imo...

 

[Norge]

I'm going to make a ballsy move and propose Mega Venusaur for S-rank, rather than, in my opinion, its unfitting placement in A-rank.

If we look at the requirements for a Pokemon to be S-rank,


Mega Venusaur fits this criteria almost perfectly. Base 80 HP along with base 123 Defense and 120 Special Defense make it an exceptionally bulky tank, capable of completely walling an enormous amount of Pokemon. To top off this excellent defensive spread, Thick Fat cuts out two of Venusaur's most common weaknesses in Ice and Fire, making it even harder to deal with given its two weaknesses to Flying- and Psychic-type attacks. Grass/Poison is also a formidable defensive typing, netting resistances to common Electric-, Fairy-, and Fighting-type attacks. Even though Synthesis is its only true means of recovery, and a bit shaky one at that, Mega Venusaur's bulk tagged with Leech Seed and Giga Drain make Synthesis's unreliability almost a non-issue.

Mega Venusaur is no sitting duck either by any means. Base 100 Attack and base 122 Special Attack is absurdly high for any bulky Pokemon, making Mega Venusaur the true definition of tank. Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb coming off of that Special Attack hits hard, not even factoring in the potential for Sludge Bomb's poison effect. Mega Venusaur is also capable of running Earthquake to catch its #1 switch-in off guard: Heatran. It also hits other Steel-types, such as Bisharp, Jirachi, and Genesect, pretty hard. Furthermore, access to Swords Dance in tandem with Mega Venusaur's bulk can make it a menace to deal with, one example of its unpredictability.

Honestly, I don't think there's any Pokemon that can check or counter more threats than Mega Venusaur in the current OU metagame. You can EV it physically or specially defensively to take on whatever Pokemon you want it to take on. Even if you don't invest in any particular defense, it's still a difficult Pokemon to outright 2HKO. I for one genuinely believe Mega Venusaur is one of the best, if not the best, bulky Pokemon one can even ask for in OU, easily checking and counter an impeccable amount of top-tier Pokemon and select Mega Evolutions. I mean, I could go ahead and spend time compiling a list of everything it can beat, but I know people can attest to its effectiveness. I know for a fact many others agree with me.

Mega Venusaur for S-rank.

I like Megasaur at A because the weaknesses to Psychic and Flying still hurt a lot with Talonflame, Alakazam, Deoxys, etc. running around. Its middling speed doesn't help against Taunt users and its typing is pretty poor offensively. These are its only flaws which is why its definitely A material, but I don't see it having as much utility as Rotom-W, Deoxys-S, or Thundurus-I.
Also, as a defensive pokemon, it sucks that Venusaur has to mega-evolve before it can switch in on attacks and start taking hits like the beast Megasaur is; otherwise regular Venusaur really isn't that bulky and lacks Thick Fat. That, above all else, is the main problem I see with it.

 

[Ajwf]

Major psychic users in OU? Latios/Latias. They are quite literally it. Having run mega venu almost since the start of prelim tiers (in customs as soon as this guy was available), I have to say Talonflame is about the only thing you can expect to see from match to match. If I need, mega venu can become a dedicated wall for 4-5 threats from an opposing team, alleviating the pressure on me to find other walls to take threats. Not only this, but he can deal with ALL OF THEM in the same game. He's a monster, he takes hits flawlessly, has a recovery attack as his main stab which can generally recover as much damage as the opponent does, even uninvested, and has access to great moves such as roar, synthesis, leech seed and earthquake, all which give him incredible versatility. He, very literally, is the Lucario-m of the defensive side of OU.

I completely agree that Mega Venu is S rank as a wall/tank.

 

[Photofluid]

Gourgiest-super rank B+
Not the greatest defensive typing but does pack a ton of key resistances, arguably the second best user of WoW next only to Sableye with that level of physical bulkiness (slightly better than both Skarmory and Ferrothorn if I remember correctly). And despite lacking reliable heal, seed+protect have proven to be sufficient. Major flaw includes difficulty against fire type(still survive random fire blast) and vulnerable to toxic.

 

[Shiruba]

Hmmm, but Sylveon doesn't have such a hot time in the tier the way it is now. Most of the "big threats" these days are physical, meaning that Sylveon's got a hell of a time coming in, and steel-types, like Scizor, Aegislash, and Mawile, still don't particularly mind it, being able to set up on it. Fire-types aren't too uncommon either. It's also got pretty bad 4MSS - you need consistent healing [Wish/Protect], but you also want to be a cleric [Heal Bell], and you don't want to be setup fodder [Hyper Voice] but you don't want to be walled by Steel and Fire-types [Shadow Ball], but you may not be satisfied with the damage output of your attacks [Calm Mind], and wanting to more consistently support your team [Dual Screens]. It's also rather vulnerable to every hazard, and is rather physically frail [just slightly bulkier than Blissey], while still not quite having the sheer bulk of Blissey, who also boasts Aromatherapy, reliable recovery, [way] meatier Wishes, T-Wave, and a bigger special movepool if you feel like abusing it, capable of running things like Flamethrower get a surprise smackdown on Scizor, etc. Both of them also tend to slow momentum on their trainer's side if brought in, which is never a good thing.

I know, I know, Fairy > Normal, but Normal isn't quite as bad as it used to be, as fighters are rarer now, largely due to Talonflame and the rise of ghosts. Speaking of Ghost-types, Blissey's actually immune to that, so being immune to quite possibly the best type in the game is something. :o
Dark-Type resistance is cool, definitely, but a big dark-type, Bisharp, actually /wants/ you in with him, while you don't really want to switch into Mandibuzz due to the threat of losing your lefties. The last one is Mega Absol, and Sylveon's pretty good for dealing with him, as they don't typically pack SE attacks.
The bug types in the list are Genesect [which will U-Turn out anyway], Pinsir [doesn't use Bug moves], Galvantula [has Thunder, is probably dead by this point in the match] and Scizor [Bullet Punch], so that resist is more or less irrelevant, but resisting U-Turns is cool, I guess.

Fighting resist is cool, as is Dragon, though the latter typically has something in store for a fairy. For the Keldeo thing, Keldeo has any easy 2HKO w/ specs HPump unless you're 252/252 Calm, in which case you actually are quite physically frail, which presents its own problems, considering, again, the meta is mostly physical.

I think it's okay where it is now, maybe B- if it wants to move up a tad.

 

[Strykeypoo]

I'd argue Conkeldurr needs to be moved up. Several direct and indirect changes brought in X&Y have made him much better than he was in B/W, giving him a role in OU that no other pokemon can carry out the same. Concerning direct changes, I listed them in greater detail here, but essentially the changes to steal types and the massive buff to Knock Off makes Conkeldurr much more harder to switch in than before. Knock Off gives Conkeldurr the OHKO/priority 2HKO on several important pokemon that it either couldn't or needed to make risky predictions to take out. Lati@s, Jirachi, Jellicent, Starmie and Celebi are all 2HKO'd by the same move now. Not as notable, but Conkeldurr can also 2HKO Deoxys-D with Knock Off, also voiding the effects of Red Card while doing so.
As for indirect changes, Rotom-W is now on every team. Conkeldurr is one of the best absorbers of Will-o-Wisp for obvious reasons.

I'm pretty confident that better players than I in the community will soon start picking up Conkeldurr, as it is an absolute monster right now. I can understand a B ranking from last gen's Conkeldurr, but it has been buffed more than people seem to realise. It can't sweep, but like Kyurem-B, it can punch holes in a team that are difficult to switch into.

 

[Tesung]

Mega venu should not be s rank. While it has great typing with few weaknesses, it lacks the raw stats to truly counter many of the top sweepers. While it may be nearly impossible to ohko, it's not a great switchin to thinks like genesect or bisharp, as it gets easily 2hkoed with a spike and rocks. Also, due to vulnerability to hazards and lack of Lefties, it can get worn down super quickly, especially if it gets burnt, which should happen often if switching into scalds/rotoms. A great mon, but s rank is 2 much.

Also, mega Pinsir for A+/S. I have said this before, but no one responded. It has crazy power, priority, near perfect coverage, great speed, solid bulk, and typing that makes certain mons complete setup fodder. Also, flying is an amazing attack type, it's not that easy to find resists. It's only problem is skarmory, and it has no other true counters. While rocks are annoying, it's usually only taking 25% as it won't usually switch out after mega evolving. It's Sd set is better than mega Lucario IMo.

Also, why is terrakion A+? Seems like complete A to me.


Finally, mega ampharos for B+. Rest talk is really good, it is the only Pokemon besides fuckin lanturn who switches into rotom a and talonflame. It is also nearly impossible for stall to take down, and gets momentum even better than rotom w due to a slower volt switch. Really anti meta atm.

 

[rachet67]

I want you to take a look at what are the top threats in this gen. Notice how celebi is eaten alive by almost all of them. Genesect, lucario, charizard, talonflame, aegislash, excadrill (swords dance), heatran, garchomp (any set except choice scarf), gengar, greninja, landorus (both formes), pinsir, venusaur, scizor, kyurem-b and there are stuff that although cant do much to it, celebi cant really prevent them from doing their job like ferrothorn and both deoxys formes

Some of those pokes celebi can get around or cripple. The one's it can't can covered with proper team building. Celebi has enough bulk to take a hit from gengar and OHKO with psychic. Same goes for venusaur. Celebi can 2HKO both excadrill and heatran with earth power and outspeeds both.

The other hard counters are genesect, lucario-m, charzard, talonflame, aegislash, landorus forms, garchomp, pinsir, scizor, kyurem-b, and greninja. All of these pokes besides lucario-m (which will hopefully be banned soon), greninja, and kyurem-b can be hard countered by a combination of Tyranitar and Skarmory. Yes Celebi needs team support to be able to function. Thats why it should be only B rank and not higher.

Just listing a bunch of things that can kill celebi doesn't necessarily say that its not B material. It can still do its job (firing off the strongest stab grass attack in OU, supporting the team through paralysis, its resistances to both ground, water, and electric moves, or its ability to absorb status) reasonably well with proper support. Anything higher that B rank is overstating Celebi's ability to function stand alone in OU. But celebi isn't really outclassed by any mon as it has a completely different purpose and typing than venesaur, and can do its job well enough not to be classified as C rank.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Some of those pokes celebi can get around or cripple. The one's it can't can covered with proper team building. Celebi has enough bulk to take a hit from gengar and OHKO with psychic. Same goes for venusaur. Celebi can 2HKO both excadrill and heatran with earth power and outspeeds both.

The other hard counters are genesect, lucario-m, charzard, talonflame, aegislash, landorus forms, garchomp, pinsir, scizor, kyurem-b, and greninja. All of these pokes besides lucario-m (which will hopefully be banned soon), greninja, and kyurem-b can be hard countered by a combination of Tyranitar and Skarmory. Yes Celebi needs team support to be able to function. Thats why it should be only B rank and not higher.

Just listing a bunch of things that can kill celebi doesn't necessarily say that its not B material. It can still do its job (firing off the strongest stab grass attack in OU, supporting the team through paralysis, its resistances to both ground, water, and electric moves, or its ability to absorb status) reasonably well with proper support. Anything higher that B rank is overstating Celebi's ability to function stand alone in OU. But celebi isn't really outclassed by any mon as it has a completely different purpose and typing than venesaur, and can do its job well enough not to be classified as C rank.

You better specify what kind of celebi are you even talking about. Celebi cant tank a hit from gengar, ko mega venusaur with psychic, outspeed excadrill and heatran while 2hkoing them with earth power and cripple its other counters with status all with the same set. Not even sure what you mean by skarm+ttar support when they have no chance against charizard, aegislash, garchomp and landorus lol. The fact is, celebi is hugely threatened by almost all of the top threats in this metagame making it a huge liability for any team. I am not ''listing a bunch of things that can kill celebi'', i am listening the most powerful and relevant threats that are around xy ou and celebi falls against all of them. What is it even supposed to do in this tier anyway, like what can celebi even check? Rotom and... hp bug-less keldeo i guess? That simply doesnt cut for B rank, you can say it shrug off status all you want but i can name a bunch of other things (*cough* conkeldurr *cough*) that do the same thing while not being helpless against everything else.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Hmm, no mention of Mega Blastoise? I mean, it's got Rapid Spin, all the Pulse moves to take advantage of, and has pretty well balanced stats across the board, the two lowest being it's Speed and Hp, both being at 78/79 respectively. It also has Aqua Jet to work with, and base 103 Attack still's decent, and like most Water Pokemon has Scald for Burning things. Yeah, it takes up a Mega Slot, but if Diggersby got to C+, then I'd think Mega Blastoise would at least get to C Rank as well. Feel free to correct me if I've said anything foolish on the matter however or If I'm overlooking something.

 

[rachet67]

Celebi can run an offensive set 60 Hp/ 252 SpA/ 196 Spe Modest, that is reasonably bulky. Psychic, leafstorm, earth power, and recover can cover many of these threats. Tyranitar can easily switch into charzard Y set up sandstorm and pursuit on way out. Charzard X is a little more problematic. Skarmory can wall swords dance Aeglislash. Of course two pokemon can't counter a sizable portion the meta-game by themselves, but you have three other slots for that. At this point your not dedicating your team to supporting celebi, you're just being smart and preparing for common threats so that your team as a whole, not just Celebi, can function.

I never said it had to counter them all on the same set, just that it could do whatever job it was supposed to do reasonably well, either supporting or serving as a bulky attacker. I also never said it was a purely good mon, just that C is too low for it and that its not really outclassed.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Hi guys, new user here! Anyway I'd like to nominate Honchkrow as a b+/a ranking pokemon for a variety of reasons. Thanks to the defog buff honchkrow has an easier time switching in, and as a result of the dark buff and knock off buff honchkrow is unbelievably difficult to switch into. Firing off moxie sucker punches and knock offs on top of brave birds with an attack stat equal to bisharps is incredibly potent, and arguably I say his typing is more helpful than bisharps thanks to his flying type making him resist/immune to bisharps greatest weaknesses, fighting and ground. I think honchkrow is just as viable, if not more viable in ou IMO

 

[Duck Chris]

The problem remains that celebi is destroyed by most of the members of the S-tier, as well as a majority of the A-tier. Blastoise is another mon which deserves mention. Mega-launcher boosted dark pulse allows it to be a very strong rapid spin user with the ability to defeat common spinblockers. Not sure how relevant this is considering the rise of defog users, but it definitely deserves mention.

Honchkrow is definitely strong, but I don't think its that much better than last gen.

 

[EternalZ]

Hi guys, new user here! Anyway I'd like to nominate Honchkrow as a b+/a ranking pokemon for a variety of reasons. Thanks to the defog buff honchkrow has an easier time switching in, and as a result of the dark buff and knock off buff honchkrow is unbelievably difficult to switch into. Firing off moxie sucker punches and knock offs on top of brave birds with an attack stat equal to bisharps is incredibly potent, and arguably I say his typing is more helpful than bisharps thanks to his flying type making him resist/immune to bisharps greatest weaknesses, fighting and ground. I think honchkrow is just as viable, if not more viable in ou IMO

Honchkrow doesn't get Knock Off.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Major psychic users in OU? Latios/Latias. They are quite literally it.

Deoxys-S and Sheer Force Landorus-I. Though it doesn't help much, they DO exist (with Deoxys-S currently ranked S) and they are menacing forces with what they do, much like the Latis.

Also, why is terrakion A+? Seems like complete A to me.

Terrakion is still one of the hardest Pokemon to switch into. Close Combat+Stone Edge is hard enough, but Psychics have to face X-Scissor and anything else will face Earthquake, a move gaining popularity on Terrakion thanks to Aegislash. Fairy-Types did little to nothing as far as stop Terrakion; if anything, most of them are still in danger when switching in. I'd show calculations of the guaranteed and possible 2HKOs on Faeries and Aegislash, but that should go without saying (especially considering that it's the Choice Scarf set with a Jolly Nature--now imagine a Choice Band). Threats are extremely far and few between, with Skarmory falling to any +1 Terrakion and other Pokemon like Slowbro and Gliscor being battered around with Stone Edge. Pokemon that could technically check Terrakion (or even Counter in some cases) are Golurk and Amoonguss...but let's be honest here: Are these two easy to fit on ANY team? Golurk hasn't really gained anything and only the most physically defensive Amoonguss can safely switch into Terrakion. The standard spread from last gen proves this:

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Amoonguss: 219-258 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

These facts alone make Terrakion the threat it is and my personal favorite Muskateer (as well as my favorite Rock-Type). It deserves A+.

Hi guys, new user here! Anyway I'd like to nominate Honchkrow as a b+/a ranking pokemon for a variety of reasons. Thanks to the defog buff honchkrow has an easier time switching in, and as a result of the dark buff and knock off buff honchkrow is unbelievably difficult to switch into. Firing off moxie sucker punches and knock offs on top of brave birds with an attack stat equal to bisharps is incredibly potent, and arguably I say his typing is more helpful than bisharps thanks to his flying type making him resist/immune to bisharps greatest weaknesses, fighting and ground. I think honchkrow is just as viable, if not more viable in ou IMO

While I personally love Honchkrow (I have a running joke with it regarding my Soul Silver Nuzlocke), I don't think it's worth B+. While I could say a ranking around C is closer to appropriate (even C+ wouldn't be that bad), I think B+ is a bit extreme. Also...it might be just me, but when did Honchkrow learn Knock Off? If somebody could send a link to prove that it does, that's great...but I can't seem to find it. If it DID get Knock Off, I'd see some form of use, but I don't see it happening. It was definitely solid in UU last gen, but...it seems "meh" to me right now. It's outclassed in Sucker Punch combos by Bisharp, which boasts a better typing, movepool, and Defiant to stop Intimidate, outclassed as a Scarfer by just about everything, and its Defenses don't help it do any favors.

Conkelderp high up dere

This might come off as a surprise for many, especially considering that I don't use Conkeldurr often, but...I agree! I think Conkeldurr should be seriously considered. It has the movepool (though Close Combat or Hi Jump Kick coming off of it would be scary, it thankfully doesn't learn any of those), the stats as a Physical Tank, and the Fight-Type only leaves three weaknesses. Psychic is, as mentioned before, only found on four common Pokemon, Flying is typically Physical now thanks to Acrobatics and Brave Bird from Talonflame (don't forget Skarmory and Staraptor if people decide to use those), and Fairy is...Fairy. It's the only weakness to watch out for and even they will get hit hard from Stone Edge (Terrakion deja vu).

Now for my arguments for rankings.

Manaphy...I was unsure about this one at first. Two weaknesses, Tail Glow, ResTalk, Calm Mind, Dual Screens, access to Scald gives it the chance of being a tank...I'm sure there is more it can do, but this is what I have for now. That's still a LOT. One Tail Glow gives Manaphy 2.5x the power already, ResTalk is just annoying with Scald, Calm Mind allows it to check Special Attackers, Dual Screens gives it a Support Options (also, as a 100 All-Around Pokemon, it has the bulk to do so), and it can make Manaphy somewhat difficult to face. In a metagame with Physical Attackers running around, Manaphy can have an easy time pounding through. Its main use, Restration, may have nerfed like crazy, but it still has multiple uses for teams. I'd say A+/A is about where it needs to be, as I find it much like Jirachi: Crazy good, but not COMPLETELY broken. Permanent Rain being gone takes away the power of Scald/Surf and makes Hydration non-existent in average play. I think people can underestimate Manaphy sometimes, which is pretty sad.

Hydreigon is a Pokemon I think should be added, but I'm certain it would probably fall in B-. Hydreigon was uncounterable last gen and I think it still has a similar scare. Base 98 Speed, while low for a sweeper, can be remedied with Choice Scarf. It also has access to Flash Cannon (wait, how can it even use that?), which can be used to surprise specific Faeries. Sure there are Pokemon that can switch into it more, but I don't think that makes Hydreigon completely unusable. Thoughts on this one, anybody?

Finally, I'm surprised to see that hardly a person has mentioned Klefki in B-. My assumptions are that A. People don't want to talk about Klefki; and B. No Taunt. It does have Priority Spikes, though, which I think is a nice little bonus. I'm still unsure about Klefki's ranking and am having a hard time deciding whether or not I agree with it being where it is...

 

[Gary]

Alright I held off a bit just to see how this would turn out, and so far I'm liking the results! Great start guys.

Anyways, I noticed that Alakazam has yet to be placed in the rankings. Recently I've been using Alakazam extensively (mostly cause of C&C shit), and I think I've used it enough to say that B+ Rank is a perfect spot for it ATM. Alakazam got hit hard this generation, and I mean really hard. Yes it got a cool Mega Evolution that gives it more of a niche in sweeping rain offense teams and outspeeding the whole fucking tier, but Alakazam on its own is definitely not as scary as is used to be. Priority moves, arguably it's biggest weakness, runs absolutely rampant through the tier. Everyone and their mother runs priority on their team, mostly because due to the massive number of Pokemon that have access to such moves and how pivotal they are at giving you the edge over faster teams. Just to name a few off the top of my head; Scizor, Azumarill, Aegislash, Bisharp, Talonflame, Mega Mawile, E-Speed Genesect, Mega Lucario. The Pokemon I named are just some of the FEW common users of priority that you'll commonly run into on the ladder, and all of them have the ability to deal massive damage, break its Sash, or straight up OHKO it. On top of this, quite a lot of common bulky Pokemon give Alakazam trouble as well. Mandibuzz is an incredible user of Defog and doesn't give two shits about it, Goodra walls it for days, and Aegislash doesn't really mind it much either. Then of course there's Greninja, who just outspeeds it, and Scarf Genesect, which is everywhere.

Now after saying all that, I think I've proved my point that Alakazam may no longer be a top tier OU Pokemon, but it's still an amazing revenge killer that deserves to be at least B+ rank. Sure the influx of priority moves and faster Pokemon hurts it, but with that Focus Sash, Alakazam can still revenge kill a crap ton of Pokemon and remains a huge threat to offensive teams. It just shits over a ton of common offensive Pokemon such as Gengar, Terrakion, Keldeo, Excadrill, Dragonite, Garchomp, Landorus, and Kyurem-B. This list is easily expanded upon if its Sash is still intact, letting it revenge even Mega Lucario with BP among a few other things. It's also one of the few offensive Pokemon that can successfully break through the god tank that is Mega Venusaur, which is definitely something that can't be ignored. I still believe that its ability to revenge kill many of the common offensive Pokemon that litter the tier, its ability to break down a few defensive Pokemon with relative ease, and its incredible Magic Guard + Focus Sash combo which allows it to revenge kill multiple times throughout the match or Choice Scarf users that outspeed it, is more than enough to make it B+ at the VERY least. As much as many of you probably hate on Mega Alakazam, it's still something to take into account as well, because when running a Modest nature (which it easily can afford to do) it's basically as powerful as standard LO Alakazam, but with 150 base Speed and the ability to Trace Swift Swimmers, move immunities, and other cool abilities like Protean from Greninja. Solid mon IMO.

tl;dr Alakazam for B+.

 

[G-Von]

As of right now, I have nothing to say about the positioning of the list, but could you please put the rankings in alphabetical order? I ask this because that is how all the Viability Ranking Threads were done last generation and it would make it a lot easier to find a specific pokemon and see if we believe it should be moved up or down or added on the rankings.

EDIT: to avoid having this deleted for some reason, I'll nominate Hawlucha for B- or C+ rank.

Hawlucha has such an amazing offensive typing that is walled by only a handful of pokemon. Not only that, but it was also given a pretty decent movepool to work with and couldn't exactly ask for more (maybe Close Combat but it appreciates the power of HJK.) Hawlucha also has access to Unburden, which doubles its speed when it loses its item. Not only by running this strategy will you double your speed, but it also doubles the power of Acrobatics. This gives the Lucha two pretty damn powerful moves to work with to sweep opponents.
On the topic of sweeping, Hawlucha can definitely pull something like that off thanks to its trollish base 118 speed to get the jump on things like Latios, Gengar, and Starmie. Thanks to Swords Dance, Hawlucha will have the power to muscle through sturdy walls that would normally stand in its way. With such great aspects, you wonder why I wouldn't try to nominate it for a much hire rank. Well, the fact of the matter is, Talonflame exists. For as long as T-flame is legal in OU, then Hawlucha will not be seeing much action. It is something that I find to be a very good option for players trying to do something a little different but will still get the job done.

(I apologize for making such a rushed/short post. Its late and I just discovered this thread existed and due to my frustration of finding out so late, I decided I had to join in on the action.)

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Yea i derped on knock off lol :p, but I still think the crow has a few things over Bisharp. Defiants much more situational than moxie, and while honchkrows got almost perfect neutral coverage with his stabs Bisharp has a steel type which isn't very good offensively, even if it can hit fairies. The speed argument is true, but bisharps the same speed so they both have that problem. And honestly, even though Bisharp has the coveted steel type i don't think it helps to much at all, adding ground, fire, and a horrid 4x fighting weakness. Surprisingly this gen flyings becoming a very good stab option this gen, and with a choice scarf I think crow plays differently, but just as good as Bisharp.

Thanks for the feedback anyhoo m8 :D

 

[Norge]

Can't remember if anyone mentioned Gardevoir yet but its Mega evo is very strong, I'd put it at B+ or A-. 165 spec. attack lets smash through entire teams if they don't resist STAB. Good mix of speed and special defense means it can outspeed bulky mons and take hits from some of the faster ones. Its walled by some stuff like Heatran and Skarmory, but team support from something like Magnezone or Rotom-W can make it really effective. Mega Gardevoir for B+.

 

[Halcyon.]

Hide

S Rank:

Genesect
Mega Lucario
Aegislash
Deoxys-S
Rotom-W

A Rank:
A+
Heatran:
Garchomp:
Manaphy:
Talonflame
Terrakion
Thundurus-I
Keldeo: A====>A+
Gengar A====>A+
Mega Venusaur: A====>A+
A

Excadrill:
Deoxys-D
Azumarill:
Charizard(Mega-X): A+====>A
Charizard(Mega-Y):
Mawile(Mega):
Landorus-T:
Landorus-I:
Tyranitar:
Mega Pinsir

Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Kyurem-B
A-
Bisharp: B====>A-
Greninja: A====>A-
Latias A====>A-
Latios A====>A-
Scizor A====>A-
B Rank:
B+
Alakazam Still a great revenge killer, though honestly it's not as great as it used to be since many of the big threats have good bulk as well
Conkeldurr: B====>B+
Mandibuzz:
Gyarados:
Goodra:
Mamoswine:
Clefable:
Gliscor
Skarmory
Togekiss
Hippowdon tbh, I'm surprised this wasn't on the list to begin with. A great stall 'mon, and also the better SS user for Excadrill, since it has reliable recovery
Gardevoir Mega Gardevoir is actually the shit. I used it on a team recently and it can put a dent in many special walls with Psyshock and ruin physical walls with Hyper Voice. Definitely underrated atm.
B
Starmie Mostly outclassed now that it faces competition from Exca and all the defog users, but it still packs a punch and has good coverage.
Gourgeist-H:
Slowbro:
Trevenant
Scolipede
Kingdra Honestly such a beast when rain is up. Swift Swim is terrifying when used right, meaning Kingdra is still a monster imo.
B-
Politoed Rain is rain. Politoed might not be great, but Swift Swim is, so I gave it B-. It can still be used well, so I think it fits in nicely here.
Crawdaunt Powerful as fuck and has the most powerful Knock Off in the game iirc, definitely a big threat considering it hits harder than Azumarill
Medicham(Mega) Mega Medicham is not bad at all, just seems overshadowed by Luc and Mega Mawile, B- fits it well
Absol(Mega): B=====>B-
Galvantula:
Klefki:
Zapdos B====>B-

C Rank:
C+
Diggersby:
Gourgeist-Small:
Victini Scarf sets ain't bad at all, and works well with rain being mostly gone and Defog limiting its Rocks weakness. Speciall attacker is also a good set atm
Ludicolo pretty much the same as Kingdra, but it's much slower so I think it should be lower than the seahorse. Works well on SS teams to help tank electric hits and boosted water moves though.
Chansey Chansey is Chansey and still annoys the fuck out of me, walling a lot of special attackers bar Keldeo and providing support, but it does have its fair share of problems, making it C+ imo.
C
Forretress:
Ditto:
Sylveon
Chesnaught I think this thing gets a lot of shit, but I've seen it in action and it does surprisingly well. People also seem to always forget about Bulletproof when the Shadow Ball it with their Aegislash.
Chandelure Ghost only got better this gen, and with Defog, it doesn't have as much to fear when it comes to hazards, Specs, Sub, and Scarf all work decently well from what I've seen. Mostly outclassed by Gengar though.
Tentacruel Still a decent wall and spinner, and it walls Azumarill, which is nice. Not even close to as good as it used to be though, so C it is.
Blissey It's honestly just not as good as its pre-evo, especially since sand stall is dead, but it still works.
D Rank:
Jolteon
Ninetales Sun can be pretty good when used right, especially with Defog and the new sun setter Charizard Y, which is really good. But Ninetales still sucks so I put it in D.
Krookodile Krookodile can do work both offensively and defensively, but it's mainly outclassed in these roles by other Ground or Dark types.
Malamar C===>D

So this is basically how I would change this tiering, as I feel there are a few 'mons out of place, and even more missing (the lower tiers are basically nonexistant, even though there are plenty of viable Pokemon this gen which should be there). I really can't be bothered to explain the minute changes I made, but I can give reason for all the Pokemon I added in. The reasoning for each of them is next to their name, which I so kindly bolded and made blue to make it easier on the eyes <3

 

[LordGauss]

I'd like to nominate some less popular options in the metagame
Hydreigon: B
Even with the fairy types, especially Azumarill and Florges who tank his attacks with impunity, Hydreigon can still OHKO or 2HKO the majority of the metagame. He also benefits from the dark type buff, so now he can dark pulse with very few resistances. His dark type doesn't offer much defensively (Particularly with Genesect running around), but his dragon type and levitate are excellent for offering switch-ins, with the ubiquitous Rotom-w being the main example. The speed stat is disappointing, but with the metagame slowing down, this shouldn't be an issue. Kyurem-B might hit harder and has better bulk, but his typing is much worse and can't switch-in as much with Stealth Rock weakness. Latios competes with Hydreigon as a special attacking dragon, but Latio's movepool isn't as good and gets walled more easily by pink blobs and Tyranitar, which Hydreigon avoids with its standard mixed attacking set. Hydreigon might have gotten a deadly weakness and some counters, but he remains a superb wallbreaker and late game cleaner.

Porygon2: C
It's typing might not be the greatest, but only 1 weakness and 1 immunity is still nice when ghost type is now the best offensively. With superb defenses after the eviolite boost and boltbeam coverage, it's an excellent tank, especially being able to take down most unboosted dragons. I think only bulky offensive Mega Venusaur comes close to the same role that Porygon2 has, but Porygon2 offers better coverage and doesn't take the mega spot. Both trace and download give porygon2 very good utility, the former offers to counter intimidate Gyarados and absorb Fire blasts/Lava Plume from Heatran, while the latter can dangerously threaten a large portion of the metagame if you can get a SpA boost. The Knock Off buff might deter Porygon2, but its defenses are still decent without eviolite and its attacks can threaten common Knock Off users like Mandibuzz and Landorus-T.

Empoleon: C
With decent defensive typing and stats, Empoleon can function pretty well as a Specially defensive support. Admittedly 86/101 special defense bulk isn't the greatest and its two abilities are nearly useless, but Empoleon can function much like a more physically bulky Tentacruel or a Specially defensive version of Skarmory. Empoleon's niche comes from being one of the few pokemon that gets both Defog and Stealth Rock. The others are Aerodactyl and Archeops, which aren't exactly defensive, Gliscor which has sacrifice Toxic Heal, Skarmory which is Physically defensive, Mew which doesn't have a great typing, and Arceus. For a support pokemon, its movepool is decent, with Defog, Stealth Rock, Knock Off and Roar as a few of its options, and its 111 special attack is not bad either.