Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Cowtao]

Breloom for B+
Breloom is still a common threat this generation for many reasons. Breloom is still one of the most reliable spore users in the meta. Despite setbacks due to Spore's older mechanics being brought back and Low Sweep's buff Breloom gained a new coverage move in Rock Tomb. Breloom also still has the ability to retain a Swords Dance set or a Leech Seed set. Arguably, Breloom got a more useful boon with the current state the metagame is in. With it's coverage near flawless bar Aegislash, Breloom can now run an effective anti-lead set with Focus Sash. This can leave a dent into many common leaders like Rotom-W, Genesect, or even Deoxys-D. Breloom still has limits however, his base 70 Speed is still abysmal. A grass/fighting type also leaves it much to be desired with common threats like Talonflame running rampant. Breloom can still be a very effective pokemon in the right team.

Florges for B
Florges has a lot of amazing abilities under it's belt that it can do in the Current OU meta. Simply put, Florges is the premiere Cleric of X/Y OU. Florges has access to Moonblast, Wish, Toxic, and Aromatherapy making it a formidable cleric. A boon that Florges has an advantage over it's brethren of Chansey and Blissey is it's fairy-typing. Being able to switch into a U-turn against a Physical threat gaining momentum is a powerful tool. Also unique from other Clerics is a very useful STAB Moonblast. Attacking a Special Attacker with Moonblast can aid your pokemon to tank hits better after a Special Attack drop. It does falter in it's own unique single typing and the lack of a decent ability. Unlike Chansey and Blissey who have Natural Cure, Florges is cursed against statuses with only Aromatherapy or Lum Berry to save it from being effected with status. Also, compared to Chansey and even Sylveon, Florges has low HP for a Cleric so wishes won't be as plentiful as is the other Clerics described. Still, this flower has a lot of power in it's typing and it's ability to withstand and dish out unique types of damage. Rightfully so, Florges deserves the spot of B.

 

[TrippingRocks]

I don't think Deoxys-S belongs in the S tier. In this generation, priority moves have become a whole lot more prominent, making Deoxys-s and his insane speed less impressive. He has a mediocre bulk of 50/90/90 with a not-so-great typing of being mono-psychic. Though he does have a niche of being a suicide lead, that niche is not all that impressive in this generation. With the advent of defog, it's only become easier to remove hazards. And then there's M-Blastoise and Excadrill, both of which are extremely solid rapid spinners who stand a good chance against the common spin blocker. While entry hazards are still an important part of the battle, they've become a whole lot easier to remove in this generation, thus weakening the role of a suicide lead.

Deoxys-s also sports an impressive movepool. However, just an impressive movepool is not going to get a pokemon into S-tier. What else does Deoxys-s have? He has decent, but not great attack and sp.atk stat of 95. What really makes him stand out as an offensive threat is his massive speed, allowing him to even outspeed scarfed pokemon. However... with all these new priority moves running around, scarfed pokemon have become more scarce. Deoxys-s and all his speed can't do much against priority. His bulk (which is rarely invested in) would only allow him to handle one hit from priority attacks if even that.

Compare offensive Deoxys-s to Genesect, a pokemon that truly deserves to be in S-rank. They both have a very solid moveset, but what distinguishes Genesect over Deoxys-s? A whole plethora of things actually. Genesect has a much better typing than Deoxys-s, sporting only one weakness and some key resistances. Tie Genesect's typing with his bulk and you'll see that he can actually take a hit or two. Genesect also has a great ability that gives him either a free choice band or a free choice spec, but doesn't lock him into a move. Deoxys-s has pressure, which really doesn't do much for him. Also Gensect has better attack and sp.atk stats than Deoxys-s. Lastly, Genesect gets STAB U-turn, which not only hits like a brick if Genesect got an attack boost, but has great utility and maintains offensive pressure. What exactly does Deoxys-s have over Genesect? Lol, he's faster. And that's it. And this speed advantage could easily be bypassed by priority.

Compare offensive Deoxys-s to the other offensive pokemon in S-tier. M-Lucario, Aegislash, and Deoxys-s can all go mixed. They all have a good movepool. However, in exchange for having a worse typing, less bulk, less power, a useless ability, and an un-STAB priority move (extremespeed), Deoxys-s is faster than M-Lucario and Aegislash! Is giving up all that just to have more speed worth it? I don't think so.

When it comes to offensive power, I do not think Deoxys-s deserves to be in S-rank. When it comes to his niche as a suicide lead, I do not think that is adequate enough to justify his ranking. Even if he can guarantee at least 2 layers of hazards, keeping those hazards on the field has become harder than ever. Plus the idea of sacrificing an entire pokemon just to set up some entry hazards has never really appealed to me.

 

[Molk]

Florges for B
Florges has a lot of amazing abilities under it's belt that it can do in the Current OU meta. Simply put, Florges is the premiere Cleric of X/Y OU. Florges has access to Moonblast, Wish, Toxic, and Aromatherapy making it a formidable cleric. A boon that Florges has an advantage over it's brethren of Chansey and Blissey is it's fairy-typing. Being able to switch into a U-turn against a Physical threat gaining momentum is a powerful tool. Also unique from other Clerics is a very useful STAB Moonblast. Attacking a Special Attacker with Moonblast can aid your pokemon to tank hits better after a Special Attack drop. It does falter in it's own unique single typing and the lack of a decent ability. Unlike Chansey and Blissey who have Natural Cure, Florges is cursed against statuses with only Aromatherapy or Lum Berry to save it from being effected with status. Also, compared to Chansey and even Sylveon, Florges has low HP for a Cleric so wishes won't be as plentiful as is the other Clerics described. Still, this flower has a lot of power in it's typing and it's ability to withstand and dish out unique types of damage. Rightfully so, Florges deserves the spot of B.

I disagree with this, Florges might look good on paper because of its decent/good stats and clerical abilities, when you take a closer look you start to realize that there's no real reason to use it over fellow X/Y specially defensive Fairy-type Sylveon (who is actually currently all the way down in C rank at the moment lol). Taking a look at Florges and Sylveon's stats side by side, you notice that Florges has lower physical bulk and a much smaller wish than Sylveon does, the latter of which is pretty significant when it comes to clerical support. Florges has more Special Defense than Sylveon, but taking into account Sylveon's higher HP stat, the difference in damage pretty much totally evens out, with sylveon only taking a very slight amount more from any random Special Attack. Florges has a higher special attack as well (if not only by just two points), but in the end, Sylveon is actually the one who ends up hitting harder, as Pixilate STAB Hyper Voice is significantly stronger than Florges Moonblast Base Power wise (117 BP STAB vs 95 BP STAB is a pretty big difference, almost the difference between using Flamethrower or Fire Blast on something in BW or before), and ignores the opponent's Substitutes to boot! So really, i don't think Florges should be touching B rank anytime soon, especially if Sylveon doesn't end up being moved up at all, as there isn't any real reason to use Florges over her :/.

 

[Schpoonman]

Nominating Entei for B-
I'll get to the point, Sacred Fire puts Entei on the map in a way he never has been before. Exceedingly accurate (though you wouldn't know it with the three misses I've had in a few hours playing tonight) with a downright silly high chance to inflict burn and not bad power at all (STAB 100 off what is probably Adamant base 115 Attack) is huge. The high chance to burn means even stuff that would force you out with basically no trouble (Landorus(-T), Garchomp, Terrakion) are risking being dead weight for the rest of the game just by trying to sponge a resisted hit. Extreme Speed from his event is also incredible. Lots of Pokemon are packing priority, and being able to beat them out automatically is a tremendous boon. For instance, no-item Extreme Speed can revenge Talonflame after Rocks and just a little damage, probably from recoil (252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 117-138 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO). His Assault Vest set is also fantastic, Entei's natural 115/85/75 bulk is very respectable and being able to take special attacks that much better is hugely useful. I've taken to sitting in front of defensive Rotom-W, sponging a Hydro Pump or two, and burning it with Sacred Fire because Rotom is so ubiquitous and burn damage stacked on top of Rocks makes him so much easier to deal with. Lacking a way to get by Heatran besides Bulldoze is a downer, as is being forced to take an Adamant nature with Extreme Speed, but with the trend to slower and bulkier Pokemon I've almost never found the speed lacking, myself, and the residual damage from burning damn near everything helps a lot.

 

[Cowtao]

I disagree with this, Florges might look good on paper because of its decent/good stats and clerical abilities, when you take a closer look you start to realize that there's no real reason to use it over fellow X/Y specially defensive Fairy-type Sylveon (who is actually currently all the way down in C rank at the moment lol). Taking a look at Florges and Sylveon's stats side by side, you notice that Florges has lower physical bulk and a much smaller wish than Sylveon does, the latter of which is pretty significant when it comes to clerical support. Florges has more Special Defense than Sylveon, but taking into account Sylveon's higher HP stat, the difference in damage pretty much totally evens out, with sylveon only taking a very slight amount more from any random Special Attack. Florges has a higher special attack as well (if not only by just two points), but in the end, Sylveon is actually the one who ends up hitting harder, as Pixilate STAB Hyper Voice is significantly stronger than Florges Moonblast Base Power wise (117 BP STAB vs 95 BP STAB is a pretty big difference, almost the difference between using Flamethrower or Fire Blast on something in BW or before), and ignores the opponent's Substitutes to boot! So really, i don't think Florges should be touching B rank anytime soon, especially if Sylveon doesn't end up being moved up at all, as there isn't any real reason to use Florges over her :/.

I am aware of the slightly higher stats that Sylveon possesses but it's missing out on a way to deal with Status and Moonblast. Florges is more useful in a Cleric regard because as of now Sylveon does not have Heal Bell or Moonblast. Sylveon has no way of dealing with status and toxic cripples her a lot, unlike Florges that can use Aromatherapy. Also the battle betwen Moonblast and Hyper Voice STAB is another choice. Do you want more damage on your Cleric or do you want more ways to stall the enemy to heal your pokemon. Both contain a similar amount of damage taken from moves so i'm gonna safely bet that if you could get off STAB Hyper Voices, you could probably stall with Moonblast and use Wish a bunch to help your team out. (Note Moonblast drops are 30% comparable to Scald Burns. That's decent accuracy for a secondary effect) That's why I personally think that Florges is the better option as of now. Sylveon's boons are Bigger Wishes and a better offensive STAB. Florges boasts a way to stall out Special Attackers and to heal status effects. I will agree that both Sylveon and Florges deserve better and should be of a higher ranking. (around B to B+) In case if this gets outdated, I will say this. If Sylveon does gain Heal Bell over Poke Bank I will fully withdraw my argument as this will render Florges completely obsolete. Sylveon will contain the bigger wishes, better STAB, and a way to deal with status, leaving Florges to it's lone Moonblast niche. (Which even that might go out of taste if Sylveon also gains it from Poke Bank.)

 

[ginganinja]

Deoxys-s also sports an impressive movepool. However, just an impressive movepool is not going to get a pokemon into S-tier. What else does Deoxys-s have? He has decent, but not great attack and sp.atk stat of 95. What really makes him stand out as an offensive threat is his massive speed, allowing him to even outspeed scarfed pokemon. However... with all these new priority moves running around, scarfed pokemon have become more scarce. Deoxys-s and all his speed can't do much against priority. His bulk (which is rarely invested in) would only allow him to handle one hit from priority attacks if even that.

The issue with Deoxys-S, is not the fact that its offensive presence is strong, but rather the fact that its almost impossible to stop it doing its job correctly. Its attack stats might only be average at best, but it packs the movepool to shutdown its common counters. It could do this in Generation 5, and in my opinion, nothing much changed to make it easier to deal with. Lets run through perhaps two of the more threatening sets..

Dual Screens: Any team thats looking to slam Deoxys-S with pure damage is going to struggle. You can run CB Tyranitar to shut down a Sash lead for instance, but this set will set up a Reflect, then a Light Screen, and then set the stage for your next 5 sweepers to switch in and set up. Sure, the set will have its vulnerabilities (its almost impossible to beat EVERYTHING), but it still does a flawless job at doing its job correctly

Hazard Lead: You can try and combat this, and its true that Excadrill and Blastoise can Spin, and that we have Defog now. This is great in practise, however a well built team can exert enough pressure to limit the effectiveness of removing those hazards. Remember, in Generation 5 we still had access to Starmie, one of the best spinners in the game, and it still wasn't enough to keep Deoxys-S in OU. Defog is nice, but again, you cannot Defog against a Deoxys-S (Taunt), so you have to Defog after its gone down. This sounds like an awesome plan until you factor in Deoxys-S setting down 2 hazards (say SR + 1 layer of Spikes), then (as it died), brings in a sweeper, so now your Defogger has to handle a +1 +1 Dragonite (for instance, im sure there are better sweepers in Generation 6 that are more threatening than Gen 5 Dragonite), having to both tank the hit and defog, assuming that Dragonite (or whatever sweeper your using) doesn't go for that second boost anyway on that predicted Defog. The long point of it is that HO Teams with Deoxys-S still exert a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure against you, limiting your oppotunities to spin or use Defog. It was True in Gen 5, and its still true in Generation 6. The fact that many players, and some council members still think its worth a suspect test (one of the first suspect tests of the generation), speaks as to how powerful it still is. S Rank has the disclaimer that suspects often come from that tier for a reason, and due to the above reasons as one as the likelihood that it will indeed become a suspect means that it is staying in S rank. Period.

Deoxys-S ======> THE S STANDS FOR SUSPECT
also comon guys, I still want to focus on higher tier mons rather than mons that would only be C rank and such, Can we work our way down or something please :(

EDIT

Also im seeing a shitload of Entei posts, some people think its B, I think someone thinks its A etc etc. I'll try and give it a proper test sometime within the next few days but in the meantime I still want more discussion on it so I can put it somewhere and we can move on lol.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

I am aware of the slightly higher stats that Sylveon possesses but it's missing out on a way to deal with Status and Moonblast. Florges is more useful in a Cleric regard because as of now Sylveon does not have Heal Bell or Moonblast. Sylveon has no way of dealing with status and toxic cripples her a lot, unlike Florges that can use Aromatherapy. Also the battle betwen Moonblast and Hyper Voice STAB is another choice. Do you want more damage on your Cleric or do you want more ways to stall the enemy to heal your pokemon. Both contain a similar amount of damage taken from moves so i'm gonna safely bet that if you could get off STAB Hyper Voices, you could probably stall with Moonblast and use Wish a bunch to help your team out. (Note Moonblast drops are 30% comparable to Scald Burns. That's decent accuracy for a secondary effect) That's why I personally think that Florges is the better option as of now. Sylveon's boons are Bigger Wishes and a better offensive STAB. Florges boasts a way to stall out Special Attackers and to heal status effects. I will agree that both Sylveon and Florges deserve better and should be of a higher ranking. (around B to B+) In case if this gets outdated, I will say this. If Sylveon does gain Heal Bell over Poke Bank I will fully withdraw my argument as this will render Florges completely obsolete. Sylveon will contain the bigger wishes, better STAB, and a way to deal with status, leaving Florges to it's lone Moonblast niche. (Which even that might go out of taste if Sylveon also gains it from Poke Bank.)

All I'm gonna say is, Once Pokebank goes up, Eevee will be the better choice here. Sylveon has access to Moonblast via Level Up, so Florges doesn't have a niche there, it gets Wish via Chain Breeding, and once Pokebank goes up it'll have access to all three on the same set, (Transfer a Eevee from Gen V that has Wish and Heal Bell, then evolve it into Sylveon and teach it Moonblast at level 37.) Just Sylveon is just overall the better choice here.

 

[LuS]

I'd like to nominate some less popular options in the metagame
Empoleon: C/B-
With decent defensive typing and stats, Empoleon can function pretty well as a Specially defensive support. Admittedly 86/101 special defense bulk isn't the greatest and its two abilities are nearly useless, but Empoleon can function much like a more physically bulky Tentacruel or a Specially defensive version of Skarmory. Empoleon's niche comes from being one of the few pokemon that gets both Defog and Stealth Rock. The others are Aerodactyl and Archeops, which aren't exactly defensive, Gliscor which has sacrifice Toxic Heal, Skarmory which is Physically defensive, Mew which doesn't have a great typing, and Arceus. For a support pokemon, its movepool is decent, with Defog, Stealth Rock, Knock Off and Roar as a few of its options, and its 111 special attack is not bad either.

Another thing that other goes seemingly unnoticed about Empoleon is how well he walls Greninja.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 29-34 (7.7 - 9.1%)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 103-122 (27.6 - 32.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 70-84 (18.8 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 78-94 (20.9 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers
0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 52-62 (13.9 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers

The above calcs are using Life Orb for maximum damage output, but a decent amount of Greninja's I've seen have been running Expert belt so he'll possibly take those hits even better. This also gives him an easy turn to set-up Rocks or use Defog, on the 5th most used mon in the tier.

 

[Punchshroom]

For the pure Fairy-types in Florges and Sylveon, I believe the main reason why they are so low on the list is that they are pretty helpless to quite a number of Pokemon. Their coverage is abysmal, having basically only Fairy moves and Psychic / Psyshock respectively (Sylveon does also have Shadow Ball), and even then they're probably only sporting one attack anyway because their other 3 moveslots consist of Wish, Aromatherapy / Heal Bell, and Protect, which would be their niche: pure clerics. However, they are so easily taken advantage of by Steel-types, Fire-types, and Poison-types: Steels are pretty much everywhere, Fire-types are super dangerous if given free turns of any sort, and while Poisons are rare they can still disrupt you if given the chance. In case you haven't noticed, these include very dangerous and problematic Pokemon such as Aegislash, Genesect, Mega-Venusaur and Talonflame.

And it's not like Toxic would help to deter some of these issues, as it only even affects like one of these 3 types, and you'd have to give up a moveslot for it. Giving up Wish or your cleric move means you either have to accommodate with teammates or you've slightly / significantly diminished the value of your support Poke, and you don't give up Protect if you're using Wish when you need to heal yourself. Stuff like Vaporeon have less need for Toxic when they can inflict status with their attack and cripple stuff, but Slyveon and Florges have no such luxury.

Finally, while Sylveon and Florges have great special bulk, their resistances lean toward the physical side, and their relative lack of special resistances would show when they are forced to WishTect more often against special threats like Keldeo and Thundurus, which makes them even easier to exploit. All in all, I would think Sylveon has the advantage over Florges due to superior physical bulk and possessing Pixilate Hyper Voice for piercing through Substitutes...which probably means Florges would be D, if not outright unranked.

 

[Doom Lord]

Sorry if I repeated some pokes, but I don't have much time here. This pastebin includes what I think will be OU this generation, please excuse kangaskhan.
http://pastebin.com/Ltcjn1ad

Thank you very much, please leave feedback.

Dooom

 

[Ajwf]

Tyranitar for A+ Rank.

Okay, so Tyranitar's stab attacks gained a boost this gen, but he also has access to Assault vest, which gives him near as much bulk as blissey in sand (someone said more, I haven't looked myself). Not only can he wall any special threat with that, but he still has his dominate attack, filling the role as a perfect tank.

Even without AV, though, tyranitar is still one of the best stealth rock users in the game, and has shown to be the best weather setter this gen. To note, whole playstyles are STILL centered around his sand, and very successful playstyles at that. The defenses are 100/110/100, not including his natural sand bonus, and his attack is 134 with access to dragon dance. He still successfully can use scarf sets and is one of the best talonflame/Charizard-Y checks/counters in the current metagame. It isn't that he walls a large part of the metagame or sweeps it, he does both AND is a major part of the balanaced sand offense playstyle.

On that note, Mega Tyranitar for A rank.

While his role is less developed because you lose access for AV and Mega Garchomp, Mega Ttar has some incredible stats and insane power. He is the premier dragon dancer, with 164 base attack and 100/150/120 bulk. On the time he mega evolves, he can have up to 10 turns of sand if needed and he is just incredibly bulky for a sweeper and incredibly powerful for a tank. Still, he easily forces switches and has the sand playstyle based around him for people who want a faster set up sweeper than mega chomp (with dragon dance and all).

Hippowdon for A rank

The bulky defense variant of these, hippowdon has a lot to offer including supporting the sand stall playstyle and even helping the sand bulky offense playstyle have more setters. His incredible bulk coupled with reliable recovery and access to stealth rocks allows him to fulfill the support/phazing option in the same way as skarmory while having enough special bulk that, invested, he can take the majority of the tier on either side.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 238-281 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 186-219 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Call me crazy, but I think that we need Mega Garchomp for S.

Hell, this thing is 700 BST with 170 attack, 120 Special Attack and an incredible movepool. Yes. Please. Couple that with his ability Sand Force and stone edge and STAB EQ get a 1.3x multiplier, making garchomp's EQ the strongest in the game.

252+ Atk Groudon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon in Sand: 226-267 (53.8 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

He has nearly flawless coverage, can run a devestating mixed set that tears apart stall and any switch ins. Give him a target and garchomp will, at worst, 2hko it. His physical sided setup set gives him a massive 878 attack. And unlike mega mawile, who is one of the few pokemon to outpower him, Mega garchomp has good base 100+ attacks in outrage, stone edge, and earthquake.

Not to mention that right now, sand is gaining a lot of relevance. Garchomp is the deadliest attacker in tier and while limited by his speed, he has the bulk to mitigate that, 108/115/95 defenses.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Hippowdon should defintely be A rank, i second this. Great mixed wall that can phaze, setup stealth rock and setup sand to wear down the opponent. The amount of things it can check is quite great, like seriously it can wall mega charizard y which is pretty ridiculous on its own. Its easily the sturdiest weather setter making it the perfect partner for the massively underrated sand rush excadrill and great for stall teams. Megas arent going to be ranked so the rest is mostly pointless, but if anything is going to push garchomp to S rank is not the mega set alone. Garchomp versatiliy, solid typing and stats which makes it a great pick to pretty much any team is why its one of the best pokemons in the game and easily the best dragon after kyurem-b. Revenge killing with scarf, wallbreaking with mega set, sweeping with swords dance, setupping stealth rock while maintaining a huge offensive presence, abusing its bulk and ability to tank hits and wear down physical attackers, hell, theres even the choice band set which just punch holes in teams like theres no tomorrow. I am not sure whether it should be S rank right now but there are enough good arguments to make this a serious thing to consider. Also venusaur is not S rank material at all. Yes it checks a lot of things but it does not define the xy metagame in the way that lucario, genesect, rotom, aegislash and deoxys s do. It takes a lot more to be a S rank threat than just being really good at its job.

 

[Sarcasm.]

Hippowdon should defintely be A rank, i second this. Great mixed wall that can phaze, setup stealth rock and setup sand to wear down the opponent. The amount of things it can check is quite great, like seriously it can wall mega charizard y which is pretty ridiculous on its own. Its easily the sturdiest weather setter making it the perfect partner for the massively underrated sand rush excadrill and great for stall teams. .

I don't know about that. Seeing as weather isn't permanent anymore and smooth rock takes away leftovers, Hippodown's survivability is severely crippled.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I also highly disagree with putting Hippowdon in A rank. It's extremely one-dimensional and suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome (EQ, SR, Slack Off are mandatory: for the last slot you want Roar to not be setup fodder, Ice Fang/Stone Edge to not be walled by Levitate/Flying-types or Toxic to cripple pokes like Rotom-W). The mixed wall set isn't all that great either: you sacrifice a lot of physical bulk just to avoid some 2HKO's on the special side, and even then you can't do much back aside from Earthquake and phazing. It has it's use as a dedicated physical wall/SR setter, but that doesn't warrant a place in A rank whatsoever.

 

[Bedschibaer]

I would put Hippowdon to B/B-, simply because the description fits best. It might not be the best wall, might not be the best sand setter, might not be the best Stealth Rocker, but the bulk it carries and the fact that it checks many threats, has access to a phazing and a recovery move makes it a great wall and support pokemon. The nerf of weather hurts it alot, since dedicated sandstorm teams aren't around that much anymore, ttar and hippo are great pokemon outside of sand though. For a wall it also has the problem that status cripples it quite severely. If it's burned it can't do anything else than phazing, if it's toxiced you will struggle keeping it alive for long. Also i agree with Liarliarpantsonfire, it might have good mixed defensive stats, but it's not unbreakable.
Btw, since when is sand rush excadrill underrated?

 

[Exeggutive]

Ttar is not A+. Weather is not nearly as important anymore and was the main reason ttar was so high last gen anyways. It has a lot of weaknesses and can't check many of the top Threats anymore.

Also mega venu isn't s at all imo. It doesn't define or shape the meta like aegislash or deoxys. It's just a solid a+ mon.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Also mega venu isn't s at all imo. It doesn't define or shape the meta like aegislash or deoxys. It's just a solid a+ mon.

I disagree :P While it might not define or shape the meta, it's still one of the best walls available in XY OU atm. Only two weaknesses, both of which are relatively uncommon (I mean, you often don't see more than one Psychic/Flying move on a team), reliable recovery in Synthesis (aside from the occasional Tyranitar), a great set of support moves like Leech Seed, Knock Off and Sleep Powder, as well as incredible bulk on both sides of the spectrum are just a few of the reasons why it's in S rank. It's got good offensive stats to boot as well for a wall.

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't think Mega Garchomp is S-rank material in my opinion. It can't sweep a good portion of the metagame on its own. It relies heavily on sand to be up constantly to hit things hard, and while it does hit things hard, its poor Speed does it absolutely no favours. Mega Garchomp struggles the most against offensive teams because of this. I mean, while it is one if the best wallbreakers in OU, it needs a lot of support to do well, which is why I feel it doesn't deserve to be in the S-rank tier. Some even argue that regular Garchomp outshines its Mega form when it comes to sweeping and can still wallbreak relatively well, and I honestly agree with that statement. You also don't sacrifice your Mega slot for something that doesn't particularly outperform its regular version in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Exeggutive]

I disagree :P While it might not define or shape the meta, it's still one of the best walls available in XY OU atm. Only two weaknesses, both of which are relatively uncommon (I mean, you often don't see more than one Psychic/Flying move on a team), reliable recovery in Synthesis (aside from the occasional Tyranitar), a great set of support moves like Leech Seed, Knock Off and Sleep Powder, as well as incredible bulk on both sides of the spectrum are just a few of the reasons why it's in S rank. It's got good offensive stats to boot as well for a wall.

Ya you mentioned it's great movepool which I agree with but you can't run all of them at once. It's not as consistent in that regard. It also loses top threats without the right move. Latios, heatran, charizard, landorus, lucario, kyruemB, thundurus are all top threats that a S tier wall should be able to handle. Not all of them obviously but it can't do anything to most of the S and A tier in general. Just because it walls a lot of stuff and has a movepool doesn't make something S tier. Blissey walls a ton of things and had a good movepool but it can't do much to the top threat pokempn.

 

[effyouzion]

Mega Ampharos should be B rank at least, probably B+. He's a great bulky pivot, especially for volt turn teams. He doesn't do a whole lot of sweeping on his own but he's an excellent supporter.

Keldeo should be A+. His sub/CM set with dual stabs is incredible with Jellicent missing from the meta. Celebi being gone too doesn't hurt.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Ya you mentioned it's great movepool which I agree with but you can't run all of them at once. It's not as consistent in that regard. It also loses top threats without the right move. Latios, heatran, charizard, landorus, lucario, kyruemB, thundurus are all top threats that a S tier wall should be able to handle. Not all of them obviously but it can't do anything to most of the S and A tier in general. Just because it walls a lot of stuff and has a movepool doesn't make something S tier. Blissey walls a ton of things and had a good movepool but it can't do much to the top threat pokempn.

Well, no. As for the second argument, a lot of pokemon in the S and A tier flatout lose to Mega Venusaur, including but not limited to Greninja, Azumarill, Rotom-W, Scarf Terrakion, Manaphy, Keldeo, Ferrothorn, Thundurus-I... (need I go on?). Also, in a 1 vs 1 situation a whole lot more pokemon are prone to being put to sleep as not many pokes score an OHKO on Mega Venusaur. Here's a calc against speciallly defensive Mega Venusaur that says enough:

252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 331-390 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Comparing Mega Venusaur to Blissey also doesn't make any sense, not going to reply to that. Mega Venusaur is fine in S.

 

[Stinson]

I'd just like to throw in Azelf having some sort of OU viability this gen, I run it scarfed and it can easily take out genesect if they don't anticipate this, which is likely due to the low usage of azelf in OU. I know that this idea will probably get shot down but I'm not suggesting it as a replacement for genesect, I actually run them both on the same team, but Azelf gets a lot of KO's that gene just can't.
For example, genesect itself, which genesect can beat but you have the risk of a speed tie, so azelf is more reliable.
Conkeldurr: Genesect can't touch it, Azelf uses psychic, it dies.
Basically all fighting types for similar reasons.
Also having both on your team allows for you to run a mixed iron head genesect and still run thunderbolt an azelf, which can be really handy.

Azelf @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt
The set I run, feel free to comment on the viability I have suggested and the set/EVs I run.

 

[SergantGold]

Consider this a general warning to everyone. Please back up your lists with evidence / logic etc, not only does this assist in creating better discussion because people can discuss your main points (leading to a better Tier list), but it also assists me since I can weigh up individual arguments and then make a decision based of your (and other) posts.

I said all my points before and i figured I would jut put them in one place. Sorry for violating that rule, i will fix it
edit: i fixed it, again sorry.

and i never said Rotom-W was outperformed i said i don't believe he provides the necessary support to be an S-ranked pokemon, but w/e I'm the minority in this situation.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Its S rank because you have no idea what in the damned hell its going to do, and all of its sets are extremely threatening. Its the exact same thing with lucario, genesect and aegislash.

 

[Stinson]

Yeah its gotta be S-rank, partly because its most threatening move is Will-O-Wisp which your best chance to block is by using a fire type, which rotom can easily take out with a hydro pump. Even if you then switch out to avoid taking the hydro pump, rotom can continue to draw in your fire types and in my opinion force switches better than anything in OU right now, so can destroy a teams strategy fairly quickly should you have hazards set, and this allows it to counter the best new fire type, talonflame.
Its recovery is also outstanding, it has many viable sets that recover easily with rest, or its access to pain split, which allows it to get out of sticky situations a lot easier than waiting for its leftovers to kick in. All in all it is very hard to kill with it being able to run defensive sets without really sacrificing any of its KO's.