Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Josh Morales]

Noivern - D

I think Noivern is a D because its power is so underwhelming and its speed isn't enough to not get revenge killed by Choice Scarfers. Specs Noivern is pretty weird, being that it's less powerful than most Specs/CB pokes but it's faster than almost all Specs/CB users but its not nearly as fast as Choice Scarfers but it is more powerful than most Choice Scarfers. It's kinda like a weird middleground that doesn't make it particularly great at anything. Let's not forget about the SR weakness and the new fairy-types.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

Talonflame is powerful, no one is denying that, but it's also frail. So while it may hit hard, it also is hit hard. While many NU/RU rock pokemon wall it, plenty of OU pokes give it a hard time. Rotom W, the most common thing ever, walls the o-great power of choice banded Talon. Talon can't even 2HKO Calm Wash, which 1HKO's it with Hydro Pump. Tyranitar walls it even more, Talon can't even 2HKO adamant T-tar. Pursuit as the birdy tries to flee and if you have or can get SR up and kill their spinner/defogger, that's a dead chicken upon switch in. Choice specs trick Rotom-H annihilates it with volt switch. Sash breloom OHKO's it with Rock tomb. Scarf Excadrill (gaining popularity) OHKO's with Rock slide. It may hit as hard as Kyurem and is faster, but it simply does not have the bulk to take any proper beating, and can't switch in on most attacks that may be super effective. He can stay in A+/A, but he's no S.

Speaking of S rank, I don't see why Aegislash is S rank. Steel/Ghost have so many weaknesses now due to the nerf on steel. A CB Crawduant OHKO's it with knock off in shield mode. Mandibuzz walls it and OHKO's it with foul play if it attacks. It gets fried by most fire attacks and in turn can't do to much to them (most notably MegaChars/Talonflame). EQ is everywhere, and even if he carries balloon he's easily 2HKO'd. While yes he's strong offensively, especially when he sets up, he suffers the same hinders Talonflame faces, except is slow as dirt and has no recovery. Shadow sneak at +2 won't be able to kill any offensive threat that isn't ghost/psychic, and even if he switches to shield mode, is still hurt, and can't do much to retaliate because he's so slow. Automize gives him speed but you'd sacrifice power, or less be restricted to 1 attacking move since he needs King's Shield to be better than his prior form, Doublade. Aegislash is a powerful tricky pokemon, but I don't see him being worthy of S. He fits much better in the A+ rank.

 

[TrippingRocks]

Good luck betting on that, deoxys can easily lead or be saved lategame using any of its sets because thats how good they are. Youre kidding yourself if you think figuring out deoxys is as trivial as whether it leads or not.

You're not gonna save a hazard setting Deoxys-s for late game. Maybe a dual screener, but definitely not a hazard setter. There is no surefire way to figure out its set, but movepool + speed does not equal S-rank.

Lol and how many offensive pokemon arent EXACTLY this? Garchomp, dragonite, lucario, thundurus, landorus, gengar, tornadus-t, genesect, mega gyarados, tyranitar, keldeo, charizard x, landorus-t, kyurem black, hydreigon, latios, conkeldurr... should i go on or inst that enough to convice you this is the best revenge killer in the game? Did i mention he is faster than scarf garchomp?

The problem with comparing Deoxys-s to all those other pokemon is that nearly ALL of them have better bulk than Deoxys-s. They can actually take a strong neutral hit okay if they can't OHKO their target. Deoxys-s can't. They also have a higher attack stat than Deoxys-s unless he's running a Life Orb. If he's running a Life Orb he becomes even frailer. While Deoxys-s is a great revenge killer, I would say it's a stretch to say that he's the best, he's nothing against priority attacks. His only form of priority is extremespeed, which isn't all that impressive considering it has no STAB and coming off a base 95 attack. Something like Talonflame or even Lucario (with his three forms of priority, Extremespeed, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave) would probably take the spot as best revenge killer. Or maybe something even like Choice Scarf Ditto. Definitely not Deoxys-s.

Yes, he outspeeds scarf Garchomp. That's really fast and all. Unfortunately for Deoxys-s, generation 6 has placed a greater emphasis on priority attacks. Deoxys-s and his speed is not going to outdo priority. He may be the fastest there is outside of priority and he has a good movepool, but just those two factors don't make him S-rank.

 

[AOPSUser]

Noivern - D

I think Noivern is a D because its power is so underwhelming and its speed isn't enough to not get revenge killed by Choice Scarfers. Specs Noivern is pretty weird, being that it's less powerful than most Specs/CB pokes but it's faster than almost all Specs/CB users but its not nearly as fast as Choice Scarfers but it is more powerful than most Choice Scarfers. It's kinda like a weird middleground that doesn't make it particularly great at anything. Let's not forget about the SR weakness and the new fairy-types.

No. Noivern is definitely not D. Its Special Attack seems underwhelming until you see its movepool--Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Boomburst, Focus Blast, Flamethrower, U-Turn, Switcheroo, and some more stuff. Specs Noivern is very fast and can hit quite hard. Scarf Noivern is one of the best revenge killers in existence, outspeeding every Scarfer people can think to run, as well as any +1 Speed booster, +2 Cloyster, +2 Adamant Dragonite/Gyarados, +2 Diggersby, etc. It can also Switcheroo the Scarf/Specs once it's done with it.

Oh, and it also revenges through Subs.

Noivern is C+ at the very minimum. Noivern for B-tier IMO.

 

[Josh Morales]

...
Speaking of S rank, I don't see why Aegislash is S rank. Steel/Ghost have so many weaknesses now due to the nerf on steel. A CB Crawduant OHKO's it with knock off in shield mode. Mandibuzz walls it and OHKO's it with foul play if it attacks. It gets fried by most fire attacks and in turn can't do to much to them (most notably MegaChars/Talonflame). EQ is everywhere, and even if he carries balloon he's easily 2HKO'd. While yes he's strong offensively, especially when he sets up, he suffers the same hinders Talonflame faces, except is slow as dirt and has no recovery. Shadow sneak at +2 won't be able to kill any offensive threat that isn't ghost/psychic, and even if he switches to shield mode, is still hurt, and can't do much to retaliate because he's so slow. Automize gives him speed but you'd sacrifice power, or less be restricted to 1 attacking move since he needs King's Shield to be better than his prior form, Doublade. Aegislash is a powerful tricky pokemon, but I don't see him being worthy of S. He fits much better in the A+ rank.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

If you use Aegislash properly its stats are essentially 60/150/150/150/150/60, which add up to 720... that's the same as Arceus

 

[AOPSUser]

Speaking of S rank, I don't see why Aegislash is S rank. Steel/Ghost have so many weaknesses now due to the nerf on steel. A CB Crawduant OHKO's it with knock off in shield mode. Mandibuzz walls it and OHKO's it with foul play if it attacks. It gets fried by most fire attacks and in turn can't do to much to them (most notably MegaChars/Talonflame). EQ is everywhere, and even if he carries balloon he's easily 2HKO'd. While yes he's strong offensively, especially when he sets up, he suffers the same hinders Talonflame faces, except is slow as dirt and has no recovery. Shadow sneak at +2 won't be able to kill any offensive threat that isn't ghost/psychic, and even if he switches to shield mode, is still hurt, and can't do much to retaliate because he's so slow. Automize gives him speed but you'd sacrifice power, or less be restricted to 1 attacking move since he needs King's Shield to be better than his prior form, Doublade. Aegislash is a powerful tricky pokemon, but I don't see him being worthy of S. He fits much better in the A+ rank.

Aegislash is amazingly versatile. It take hits when you want to set up if you want to do so, it can sweep with Weakness Policy and Autotomize, or with Swords Dance and Shadow Sneak, it can wallbreak with its mixed set. There is pretty much no such thing as an Aegislash counter because it has a way through all its checks.

Aegislash can demolish an unprepared team easily, and can punch holes in many team setups. It's something every team must prepare for, and not just because 15% of teams use him.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

If you use Aegislash properly its stats are essentially 60/150/150/150/150/60, which add up to 720... that's the same as Arceus

Stat total is irrelevant when your defenses shoot down to the 50's when you go offensive and your speed is only base 60 in either form. Plenty of pokemon have versatile movesets, but Aegislash, while can have different set ups, is still rather predictable. In a way, he can only have 3 moves. One of them is always a boosting move, the other 2 are always ghost/fighting/steel offensive moves. If that's unpredictable to anyone then they deserve to get swept by him. It always takes 1-2 hits to kill him with super effective moves, which he will get hit by. He may have little counters, but he can still be dealt with rather easily. Even with an automize off he won't be able to kill anything in one shot that isn't weak to steel/fighting/ghost, and if he goes offensive he's dead with 1 hit. A+ is a fine rank to be in and doesn't make him any less of a threat, but imo, he's not S rank.

 

[AOPSUser]

Stat total is irrelevant when your defenses shoot down to the 50's when you go offensive and your speed is only base 60 in either form. Plenty of pokemon have versatile movesets, but Aegislash, while can have different set ups, is still rather predictable. In a way, he can only have 3 moves. One of them is always a boosting move, the other 2 are always ghost/fighting/steel offensive moves. If that's unpredictable to anyone then they deserve to get swept by him. It always takes 1-2 hits to kill him with super effective moves, which he will get hit by. He may have little counters, but he can still be dealt with rather easily. Even with an automize off he won't be able to kill anything in one shot that isn't weak to steel/fighting/ghost, and if he goes offensive he's dead with 1 hit. A+ is a fine rank to be in and doesn't make him any less of a threat, but imo, he's not S rank.

Have you never seen the mixed or Autotomize set?

Aegislash@Life Orb
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak
-Iron Head
-Sacred Sword

Yes, it can be hit with super-effective moves, but it can easily tank the other moves while either setting up or wallbreaking. If he is a WP set he wants to be hit by Earthquake, and he will probably survive that Earthquake. It's a very common misconception that it either always has King's Shield or a boosting move, and people pay for it all the time by losing at least one mon and getting another weakened.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think you're not looking at what is probably Aegislash's best set, Shadow Ball Aegislash. While Swords Dance Aegislash is decent, I'll say that a simple set of King's Shield/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Iron Head is pretty good; Aegislash also has a nifty 150 Special Attack to work with, so a Shadow Ball off of that has some really nice immediate power and Shadow ball is pretty strong in general. Aegislash doesn't necessarily need to be a setup sweeper to succeed, mixed Aegislash is very good as well. It can wallbreak pretty well, since it has a lot of power and Steel/Ghost isn't to shabby of coverage. Either way, definitely look at Shadow Ball Aegislash, that set is very good, and along with the other sets I feel this secures Aegislash's placement in S-Rank.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You're not gonna save a hazard setting Deoxys-s for late game. Maybe a dual screener, but definitely not a hazard setter. There is no surefire way to figure out its set, but movepool + speed does not equal S-rank.



The problem with comparing Deoxys-s to all those other pokemon is that nearly ALL of them have better bulk than Deoxys-s. They can actually take a strong neutral hit okay if they can't OHKO their target. Deoxys-s can't. They also have a higher attack stat than Deoxys-s unless he's running a Life Orb. If he's running a Life Orb he becomes even frailer. While Deoxys-s is a great revenge killer, I would say it's a stretch to say that he's the best, he's nothing against priority attacks. His only form of priority is extremespeed, which isn't all that impressive considering it has no STAB and coming off a base 95 attack. Something like Talonflame or even Lucario (with his three forms of priority, Extremespeed, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave) would probably take the spot as best revenge killer. Or maybe something even like Choice Scarf Ditto. Definitely not Deoxys-s.

Yes, he outspeeds scarf Garchomp. That's really fast and all. Unfortunately for Deoxys-s, generation 6 has placed a greater emphasis on priority attacks. Deoxys-s and his speed is not going to outdo priority. He may be the fastest there is outside of priority and he has a good movepool, but just those two factors don't make him S-rank.

Wtf i am not comparing deoxys to anything, im saying it revenge kills ALL of those offensive threats and more. I dont even know whats the point of this anyway, that thing is going to be the first suspect for crying out loud. Keep bringing up priority and "lol 95 sp attack" (like it even matters when you can ko all relevant offensive threats anyway) all you want, that doesnt make deoxys anything less than the literal face of HO and a true metagame defining threat.

 

[Josh Morales]

Stat total is irrelevant when your defenses shoot down to the 50's when you go offensive and your speed is only base 60 in either form. Plenty of pokemon have versatile movesets, but Aegislash, while can have different set ups, is still rather predictable. In a way, he can only have 3 moves. One of them is always a boosting move, the other 2 are always ghost/fighting/steel offensive moves. If that's unpredictable to anyone then they deserve to get swept by him. It always takes 1-2 hits to kill him with super effective moves, which he will get hit by. He may have little counters, but he can still be dealt with rather easily. Even with an automize off he won't be able to kill anything in one shot that isn't weak to steel/fighting/ghost, and if he goes offensive he's dead with 1 hit. A+ is a fine rank to be in and doesn't make him any less of a threat, but imo, he's not S rank.

I know it wasn't any point at all but still... 720. Sorry for that anyways.

 

[mrglass]

I'm curious why Charizard X is A+, and Charizard Y is A. X Zard has a lot more competition with Salamence, Garchomp, and Dragonite. It might be the best of those 3, but it also costs you your mega slot. Charizard Y is much more useful, because there are far fewer nukes that can do what it can.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Aegislash@Life Orb
Nature: Quiet
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpA
-Shadow Ball
-Shadow Sneak
-Iron Head
-Sacred Sword

Yes, it can be hit with super-effective moves, but it can easily tank the other moves while either setting up or wallbreaking. If he is a WP set he wants to be hit by Earthquake, and he will probably survive that Earthquake. It's a very common misconception that it either always has King's Shield or a boosting move, and people pay for it all the time by losing at least one mon and getting another weakened.

Aegislash really needs Kings Shield. Otherwise you're prone to being killed after dishing out a hit by any remotely powerful SE hit, and even powerful neutral hits will take out Aegislash in it's Blade forme. I've used Aegislash extensively with and without Kings Shield and realized this soon enough. It's just not worth being forced out after every hit. I personally believe a set of Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/Kings Shield is non-negotiable, though I'd leave that for the Aegislash thread or something. I still think Aegislash should just stay S rank for reasons stated before.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

I personally feel crobat has been giving a huge boon this gen, with his poison stab and defog potential. Crobats unbelievably unpredictable with its taunt leads, Nasty plot sets, defog sets, scouting potential, or even it's famous stall breaking sets. I'd personally like to nominate crobat for C+ Or possibly even b-

 

[AOPSUser]

Aegislash really needs Kings Shield. Otherwise you're prone to being killed after dishing out a hit by any remotely powerful SE hit, and even powerful neutral hits will take out Aegislash in it's Blade forme. I've used Aegislash extensively with and without Kings Shield and realized this soon enough. It's just not worth being forced out after every hit. I personally believe a set of Shadow Ball/Sacred Sword/Shadow Sneak/Kings Shield is non-negotiable, though I'd leave that for the Aegislash thread or something. I still think Aegislash should just stay S rank for reasons stated before.

Mixed Aegislash is supposed to switch in and out and act as a pivot and wallbreaker. It can switch in on Choice-locked Scizor, Talonflame, and a LOT more things. Shadow Ball+Shadow Sneak will then maul the next switchin, unless they are really bulky or are Normal-type. Aegislash really needs the coverage provided by those moves, not King's Shield. In fact, the best Aegislash sets (Autotomize, WP, Mix LO, CB) do not run King's Shield at all. A lot of times, there is no room, or need, for King's Shield.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Mixed Aegislash is supposed to switch in and out and act as a pivot and wallbreaker. It can switch in on Choice-locked Scizor, Talonflame, and a LOT more things. Shadow Ball+Shadow Sneak will then maul the next switchin, unless they are really bulky or are Normal-type. Aegislash really needs the coverage provided by those moves, not King's Shield. In fact, the best Aegislash sets (Autotomize, WP, Mix LO, CB) do not run King's Shield at all. A lot of times, there is no room, or need, for King's Shield.

Most recent usage stats say otherwise:

| King's Shield 92.943% |

Some questionable arguments. Weakness Policy sets in particular need Kings Shield so they can switch to Shield forme and live a hit. I could argue a lot more but I don't see the need at this point.

 

[Josh Morales]

I'm curious why Charizard X is A+, and Charizard Y is A. X Zard has a lot more competition with Salamence, Garchomp, and Dragonite. It might be the best of those 3, but it also costs you your mega slot. Charizard Y is much more useful, because there are far fewer nukes that can do what it can.

Because it's the definition of an A rank

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame,

It can absolutely fulfill this with its offensive stats, ability, powerful STABS, great boosting move, great offensive and defensive typing and bulk.

but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently.

but it does require a tiny bit of meat tenderizing before you can tear right through with ease because it is not the most ridiclously powerful thing on the planet like Mega Kangaskhan or Deoxys-A.

 

[AOPSUser]

Most recent usage stats say otherwise:

| King's Shield 92.943% |

Some questionable arguments. Weakness Policy sets in particular need Kings Shield so they can switch to Shield forme and live a hit. I could argue a lot more but I don't see the need at this point.

The WP sets I've seen use Autotomize as well, or are for cleaning up weakened teams. If you use WP you take quite a bit of damage, rendering King's Shield a bit...useless.

Also ladder stats mean nothing by the way. In fact, I'm glad King's Shield is so common, because people won't be expecting the mixed LO set, making it more dangerous.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

The WP sets I've seen use Autotomize as well, or are for cleaning up weakened teams. If you use WP you take quite a bit of damage, rendering King's Shield a bit...useless.

Also ladder stats mean nothing by the way. In fact, I'm glad King's Shield is so common, because people won't be expecting the mixed LO set, making it more dangerous.

| Other 19.848% |

Autotomize isn't even on the list of commonly used moves.

| Raw count: 1069198 |

Unless I'm somehow reading this wrong, that's over 1 million. I fail to see how that means nothing. Also, 92% for Kings Shields usage is so high that it might as well be 100%. It's just mandatory on the most relevant sets, deal with it.

 

[AOPSUser]

| Other 19.848% |

Autotomize isn't even on the list of commonly used moves.

| Raw count: 1069198 |

Unless I'm somehow reading this wrong, that's over 1 million. I fail to see how that means nothing.

Viability =/= usage stats

While this isn't exactly totally true (as in: usage of counters), we should not be looking at usage stats to determine viability. Unless all of its counters are above 20% usage or something.

 

[Boltaway]

Most recent usage stats say otherwise:

| King's Shield 92.943% |

Some questionable arguments. Weakness Policy sets in particular need Kings Shield so they can switch to Shield forme and live a hit. I could argue a lot more but I don't see the need at this point.

Usage stats isn't a valid argument. About 33% of M-Kangaskhans ran Fake Out, if you recall.
I run Quiet with four attacking moves and he works really well, being able to switch into a variety of things with impunity and either force them out or OHKO with the appropriate move. Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak finishes off a lot of switch-ins, and HP Ice can be used for Dragonites and other pokemon that think they can come in on you for free; if you're feeling really risky, you can take the chance to survive Landorus-T's Earthquake (it almost always survives from the standard set and always will with HP investment) and OHKO back with HP Ice -- although such is rarely worth it, it's indicative of the amount of bulk he has in shield form and how well he functions to just break things.

King's Shield is fine, it's not a bad option, but like AOPSUser is saying, it's a wallbreaking pivot -- a hit and run style can be costly on teams, but being able to seriously dent specific walls like Skarmory might be all that you need.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Usage stats isn't a valid argument. About 33% of M-Kangaskhans ran Fake Out, if you recall.

It's relevant when a move has 92% usage.

 

[Josh Morales]

instead of arguing for ten hours you should direct your eyes here.

That'll tell you all about Aegislash's best sets and the fact that you are arguing about which of its completely different many sets are the best is further evidence that Aegislash is an S
for power and incredible versatility.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Mixed sets absolutely need kings shield, otherwise youre basically forced out EVERYTIME you attack. With kings shield not even stab se moves are capable of scaring aegislash away, its just that bulky and needs to abuse the ability to change formes in order to be truly threatening. Secret sword is pointless, you arent getting past heatran so dont bother.

 

[Sylphnir]

ITT: "my favorite pokémon is totally amazing and should be ranked higher"
Related: Cinccino for S, it has clearly the most fluffy tail.