Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

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Also, Shadow Sneak is a perfectly viable move on Aegislash as priority is always useful. Shadow Sneak also help Aegislash defeat Deoxy-A and pick off Mewtwo quite nicely.

I don't know if it's worth replying again, you clearly didnt understand what I tried to say even though I put calcs and stuff + Shadow Sneak is inferior to Shadow Ball.

Any mods feel free to delete this post and the other one if you must, I really don't feel like arguing with this guy.

PS: I know you said "check" that's why I, proceeded to post some damage calcs proving you wrong
 
Nominating Mewtwo for S rank

So hard to play around in this generation, in my opinion, Mewtwo is a really good utility mon and it's hard to prepare for every set. Mewtwo's different Mega Evolutions have completely different checks and counter. Where as Mega Mewtwo X is countered by Arceus-Fairy/Aegislash or a bulky ground type, Mewtwo Y destroys them if you make the assumption that your opponent is using a Mega Mewtwo X, which is why you need to have a check for both. Mega Mewtwo Y on the other hand, it's harder to play around, Fire Blast makes Aegislash completely useless against it, it also destroys common physical walls like Groudon, Hippowdon, Lugia, Giratina etc.. having access to Taunt is also a big deal as it prevents those pokemon mentioned above from regaining health. To top it off, Mega Mewtwo X has a very intimidating base 190 Atack stat, which is one of the highest in the game while Mega Mewtwo Y has a whopping base 194 Sp.Atk (highest in the game). Those are just the Mega Evolutions, you still need to prepare for regular Mewtwo, it also has a perfect movepool, access to Recover, Taunt, Psystrike, Will-o-Wisp, all kindz of meat. I hope I convinced you that this godly pokemon deserves a place on the S rank.


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ps: didnt see polop's post
I agree, Mewtwo is really scary and might be S-tier even. My problem with it is that its pretty easy to revenge (scarf Kyogre, Zekrom, Xerneas) and even if it got bulkier in its megaforms its still not that impressive. Still you make good points and I think what rank it get is decided on how elitist S-rank will be. Will it be like last gen or will we allow a lot of pokes in there?

By the way, I hope the actual viability rankings do not resemble the rankings offered so far in this thread. Inflation is everywhere (Extremekiller isn't S material, Rayquaza isn't A material, etc).
What should we make the rankings of? I thought this was a community project. If you dont agree please argue for your sake.
 
Since S rank mons are defined as having no opportunity cost, by definition megas and arceus are in eligible since arceus has the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another arceus form while megas have the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another mega.
 
Echoing nomination for Blaziken up there in A+ or A. With knock off, low kick and the mega forme being primary options blazikens recoil issues are solved, it's just incredibly challenging to stop once it gets going, its power is incredible, 120 power STABs with 160 attack, freely running adamant nature is on par titans like Zekrom :B

And it of course is faster than everything after a turn. You really need to stack up priority on your team or really deny it that set up. Teams must be prepared for htis thing, common set up opportunities can be on support arceus that run 2 attacks + WoW, a neutral judgement wont do enough and from there its gg, shit is scary.
 
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Ferrothorn for high B rank.
-it has large defensive capabilities, few things OHKO it.
-performs many specific roles including: walling zekrom, paralysis, walls blobs, loves switching into khanga when it's not using PuP, otherwise checks khanga, has access to leech seed, specially defensive can wall scarfogre, walls arceus fairy, rock, lugia (has more pp than the substitute variant), immune to spore and can paralyse a baton pass recipient and also carries hazards.
-can't see any real opportunity costs.
-doesn't need any team support, sand (extra res damage esp. When using protect) and rain are nice, but by no means essential.
 
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Ferrothorn for high B rank.
-it has large defensive capabilities, few things OHKO it.
-performs many specific roles including: walling zekrom, paralysis, walls blobs, loves switching into khanga when it's not using PuP, otherwise checks khanga, has access to leech seed, specially defensive can wall scarfogre, walls arceus fairy, rock, lugia (has more pp than the substitute variant), immune to spore and can paralyse a baton pass recipient and also carries hazards.
-can't see any real opportunity costs.
-doesn't need any team support, sand (extra res damage esp. When using protect) and rain are nice, but by no means essential.
Taunt weak
Set up bait for anything with a sub
Defog makes it do it's one job far less.
Doing 32% dam to kanga via iron barbs before getting ko'd isn't considered "loves" switching into in my book
It also doesn't wall blobs at all since no taunt.
Specs ogre wrecks ferro
No perma rain means that fire weakness will bite it in the ass
Immunity to spore is useless since only lol Smeargle and lol among and possibly breloom has it.
Kills momentum
Among other things

I really don't see your arguments for it being B rank. Especially since you associate it with twave means you're using the terribad power whip. Also letting Ho oh/yveltal switchin with impunity is never a good thing. Could ferro be a potential B rank? Most certainly but your arguments are incredibly flawed and only listing it's strengths (and not even the notable ones at that) and disregarding its weaknesses
 
What should we make the rankings of? I thought this was a community project. If you dont agree please argue for your sake.

By the definitions. To be an S rank Pokemon, Extremekiller would have to be "extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer." In my opinion, Arceus-Normal falls short on a couple of these criteria and thus cannot be considered one of the elite Pokemon in the game.

1. Is Arceus-Normal extremely diverse?

It can run an adequate Wallceus set (that is defog bait and has mediocre defensive typing, but does distinguish itself by getting access to Leftovers recovery) and an above-average sweeper set due to its natural bulk, priority STAB and reasonable movepool. Unfortunately, base 120 attack is not very good in ubers and Will-O-Wisp is everywhere, so you either have to use Lum Berry and lose out on OHKO's at +2 or Silk Scarf/Life Orb and pray you do not get burned. It's an elite late-game cleaner, but a lot of Pokemon are capable of fulfilling that role, including other Swords Dance Arceus forms that can synergize with your team and check stuff (see Arceus-Ground and its ability to check Zekrom). Arceus cannot run an effective Calm Mind set. It's a diverse pokemon, but not "extremely" diverse.

2. Is Arceus-Normal capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both offensive and defensive ends?

Wallceus is a momentum killer offensively, so no to that. Swords Dance Arceus can check weakened frail threats such as Darkrai and Thundurus, but really cannot directly switch into anything if it wants to conserve its strength for a sweep. Its STAB priority allows it to finish off said frail threats and stop them from wreaking havoc, which I suppose constitutes a defensive role, but scarfers can do this as well (including some that have access to U-Turn and Volt Switch). Again, this one is a mixed bag.

3. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using Arceus-Normal.

There is significant opportunity cost in using Arceus-Normal over a different Arceus form that can give your team a useful typing. Arceus falls well short of this criteria.

4. Arceus requires no support from the team.

Arceus-Normal is mainly a standalone sweeper, but because it has so many checks (though admittedly not many commonly-used counters), pairing it up with something like Rock Polish Groudon can help lure and wear down EKiller checks like Skarmory and Will-O-Wisp support Arceus. I'm willing to concede this one though because of how good EKiller is at cleaning. Wallceus doesn't need a lot of support either.

5. Arceus has immense utility to offer

STAB priority is really nice to have on Ekiller for the reason I mentioned in criteria 2, and Wallceus can successfully run both a Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive set while supporting the team with moves such as Stealth Rock, Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and Roar. Yes.


In my opinion, Arceus-Normal can fulfill 2 of the 5 criteria well (4 and 5), can only somewhat fulfill 2 other criteria well (1 and 2), and falls well short of the remaining one (3). It's clearly a solid pokemon that appreciates the reduction of former checks such as Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost, Omastar, and Physically Defensive Forretress, but also despises the increased accuracy of Will-O-Wisp in tandem with the existence of Defog. With hazards easier to remove now, using Lum Berry to deal with Will-O-Wisp spam may backfire as it cannot secure OHKO's on threats like MegaMewtwoX, Palkia, and Kyogre even after a Swords Dance. It's closer to "B" level material than "S" rank in my opinion, though it's still a good Pokemon.
 
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Since S rank mons are defined as having no opportunity cost, by definition megas and arceus are in eligible since arceus has the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another arceus form while megas have the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another mega.

Opportunity cost is define as the best value forgone. For example, the opportunity cost of playing video game is not getting homework done. But it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of doing homework is not playing video game.

Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of using Arceus-Normal is not being able to use other Arceus forms as Arceus-Normal holds greater values.

Also, remember that Arceus-Ghost was S-rank last generation despite being an Arceus form.
 
Simply because "likes" aren't enough here, I want to point out Polop's post as an excellent example of excellent arguments. A lot of this is subjective so basing your arguments on the only thing objective in this process (the definitions of the rankings) makes your points much more convincing and moves the thread away from "how many counters does x mon have?" type discussion. You don't need to write a massive tl;dr, either, DontStealMyPenguin's post is a solid example of using those criteria while remaining brief. (of course, there may be certain areas of his arguments that are inaccurate but that's a different thing and the whole point of the discussion) Sweep's post regarding Ekiller is another good example of what I hope to see from you guys. (it just came later which is why I'm emphasizing more polop's post)
 
By the definitions. To be an S rank Pokemon, Extremekiller would have to be "extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer." In my opinion, Arceus-Normal falls short on a couple of these criteria and thus cannot be considered one of the elite Pokemon in the game.

1. Is Arceus-Normal extremely diverse?

It can run an adequate Wallceus set (that is defog bait and has mediocre defensive typing, but does distinguish itself by getting access to Leftovers recovery) and an above-average sweeper set to to its natural bulk, priority STAB and reasonable movepool. Unfortunately, base 120 attack is not very good in ubers and Will-O-Wisp is everywhere, so you either have to use Lum Berry and lose out on OHKO's at +2 or Silk Scarf/Life Orb and pray you do not get burned. It's an elite late-game cleaner, but a lot of Pokemon are capable of fulfilling that role, including other Swords Dance Arceus forms that can synergize with your team and check stuff (see Arceus-Ground and its ability to check Zekrom). Arceus cannot run an effective Calm Mind set. It's a diverse pokemon, but not "extremely" diverse.

2. Is Arceus-Normal capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both offensive and defensive ends?

Wallceus is a momentum killer offensively, so no to that. Swords Dance Arceus can check weakened frail threats such as Darkrai and Thundurus, but really cannot directly switch into anything if it wants to conserve its strength for a sweep. Its STAB priority allows it to finish off said frail threats and stop them from wreaking havoc, which I suppose constitutes a defensive role, but scarfers can do this as well (including some that have access to U-Turn and Volt Switch). Again, this one is a mixed bag.

3. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using Arceus-Normal.

There is significant opportunity cost in using Arceus-Normal over a different Arceus form that can give your team a useful typing. Arceus falls well short of this criteria.

4. Arceus requires no support from the team.

Arceus-Normal is mainly a standalone sweeper, but because it has so many checks (though admittedly not many commonly-used counters), pairing it up with something like Rock Polish Groudon can help lure and wear down EKiller checks like Skarmory and Will-O-Wisp support Arceus. I'm willing to concede this one though because of how good EKiller is at cleaning. Wallceus doesn't need a lot of support either.

5. Arceus has immense utility to offer

STAB priority is really nice to have on Ekiller for the reason I mentioned in criteria 2, and Wallceus can successfully run both a Physically Defensive and Specially Defensive set while supporting the team with moves such as Stealth Rock, Defog, Will-O-Wisp, and Roar. Yes.


In my opinion, Arceus-Normal can fulfill 2 of the 5 criteria well (4 and 5), can only somewhat fulfill 2 other criteria well (1 and 2), and falls well short of the remaining one (3). It's clearly a solid pokemon that appreciates the reduction of former checks such as Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost, Omastar, and Physically Defensive Forretress, but also despises the increased accuracy of Will-O-Wisp in tandem with the existence of Defog. With hazards easier to remove now, using Lum Berry to deal with Will-O-Wisp spam may backfire as it cannot secure OHKO's on threats like MegaMewtwoX, Palkia, and Kyogre even after a Swords Dance. It's closer to "B" level material than "S" rank in my opinion, though it's still a good Pokemon.

1. On this one I kind of argree with you, its not "extremely" diverse when compered to other mons like Yveltal that is probably the most diverse in the game. Still it can run a Wallceus set even though its not really viable. So yes it might fail here. Still I think it diverse enough to get past some of it counters with variations on the offensive set. Lum, LO, SS, Band and even leftovers are viable on a SD set. And it can run moves like Overheat, Substitute and Recover in the last slot for surprise value that shifts around the checks and counter list completely. It might not be the most diverse pokemon but you cant just relay on the same mon to always check it.

2. I guess I dont have to argue for its offensive capabilities. On the defensive side I actually think that the SD set has one of the best defensive abilities in the tier. It picks of weakened treats (not much weakened) and if they isnt weakened Arceus can almost always take one attack with its incredible bulk, revenge and do severe damage to something else, removing the threat, do a lot of damage to something and its you turn to send something in. Turning a maybe pressuring situation to you advantage and with momentum. Also check the checks and counter stat last gen, pretty much every mon has Arceus as a counter. I know you cant really use this stats like that but its essentially true

3.
Opportunity cost is define as the best value forgone. For example, the opportunity cost of playing video game is not getting homework done. But it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of doing homework is not playing video game.

Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of using Arceus-Normal is not being able to use other Arceus forms as Arceus-Normal holds greater values.

Also, remember that Arceus-Ghost was S-rank last generation despite being an Arceus form.

4 and 5 yes

I think that it has at least 4/5 criterias and I dont think there is any mon that can do better. If we doesnt keep S empty Arceus should be there. Saying its B is ridiculous.
 
I agree with Kebabe arguement for #2. Arceus-Normal defines the saying: "the best defense is a strong offense." Hitting and falling your opponents before they get to touch you is one benefit of a strong priority move.
 
I'm agreeing with jimmyftw's kebabe's comments but saying that I think that its opportunity cost of not using another arceus form to check other dangerous threats or a different sort of sweeper is certainly worth noting, and also that its diversity isn't enough to patch up a lot of its problems. As a cleaner and revenge killer however, it is fantastic.. I could see it being S rank but maybe only A+/A rank because it does lack some diversity, and has clear weaknesses that aren't easy to patch up. I think maybe the trick is to use it as a utility mon for cleaning and revenging and don't use it as a sweeper, except against really newbish ladder teams.
 
I would go so far as to argue that, unless it is redefined with lower standards, no Pokemon is worthy of S-rank in this generation.

There are some incredibly devastating sweepers this generation, but they usually have some fatal flaws which prevent them from managing to quite make S-rank. Xerneas needs Power Herb, which sucks on a lot of levels, and is checked by some already popular mons. Blaziken struggles to set up and hates that it has to give up Protect for necessary coverage, and even if all goes well it's still very vulnerable to some priority, relies on a recoil move and must have SR up to break Ho-Oh/Lugia. Extremekiller Arceus faces fewer specific checks than it did in the last generation, but instead suffers significantly from the overall shift away from offense, which means that Pokemon that can survive an attack from it at +2 are far more common.

Weather is no longer the team-defining force that it was last generation, and with this both Kyogre and Groudon have lost some of their former significance. Kyogre is still certainly an excellent and versatile Pokemon in its own right, but without lasting weather that contributed heavily to the viability of numerous Pokemon last generation, I feel it falls a little short of the god status that S-rank Pokemon have.

Similarly, nothing this generation is as mindlessly capable as Arceus-Ghost was in the last. It served as a potent spinblocker (which was invaluable to many teams then), provided good bulk and longevity when such was far less common, and quickly became a devastating sweeper which was very difficult to check and was able to set up repeatedly. Most importantly, it could perform all these roles virtually unsupported, and only required support insofar as any Pokemon ever appreciates it.

Of course, we should look at this generation on its own terms, rather than looking to a past generation for some standard of S-rank, but even so I simply cannot see any Pokemon quite live up to S-rank in this generation. Many top threats have some significant flaw. Few Pokemon can very effectively perform both offensive and defensive roles. Nothing bears such an influence upon the metagame as to help define it (although quite a few of them significantly affect teambuilding). And (although this was in my eyes always the weakest argument for the ranking of a Pokemon) in a metagame so populated by Arceus formes and Mega-Evolutions, opportunity cost is difficult to avoid.
 
As it is right now my suggestion is (descriptions WIP):

S:
- Ho-oh
Great power and coverage with only 2 moves leaves him do whatever he wants, just keep him save from SR. Sacred fire just scares every physical attacker in the game. He can go banded and wreck it's number 1 counter Arceus-rock with a 80% dmg EQ. If you don't like him locked you can always chose to run the popular sub-roost set with its stella special bulk (106/154). On top of that Regenerator gives him a reliable recover making him ready to come back wrecking everithing.

- Kyogre
Drizzle Water spout, do you need anything else? If your answer is yes think about a never missing thunder (30% para-chanse) coming from it's majestic 150SpA or a bulky set (100/90/140!). Scarf, Specs, CM, RestTalk, she can accomplish whatever you need for your team. Just keep her away from AV Palkia and you're done.

A+:
- Arceus Normal
Still one of the best sweeper in the entire game. Enough bulk to survive pretty much everything to go +2 and begin killing with a +2priority move. EQ and shadow claw allow him to hit everything else. If you prefer more bulk you also have Reover as option to keep him alive. Did you say WoW? Don't worry Lum berry is here to save you, or simply keep powering up, there aren't many mon who can scare you out with his mighty 120/120/120 bulk.

- Arceus Rock
Best support arceus VI generation as to offer. #1 Ho-oh counter, WoW to deal with physical attackers, resistent to normal (looking at you EK) is what his typing as to offer. Defog is here to clean the field from hasards and his judgment still hit hard without invesment.

- Palkia
Shiny new toy for this monstruosity: AV, making her Kyogre's worst enemy. Her speed (100) is enough to outspeed the majority of the meta fulled with 90,95,99. Great offensive and defensive typing mekes Palkia able to deal with everything, pink blobs excepted.

A:
- Xerneas
This overhyped special setup sweeper is something that changed the meta making everyone pack at least one counter to geomancy set. Once at +2/+2/+2 there is very little that can stop this deer. If you don't like to relay on a one-time use item you can just profit from using him as cleric. Did I mentioned that this thing is fairy?

A-:
- Yveltal
Capable of being support or a powerful attacker this black bird is unpredictable. Altough weak to common attack type like ice/rock/electric he has enough bluk to survive them easily and he can just recover up by eating his enemys with a powerful obliwion wing. Blessed with an aura-boosted STAB sucker punch this bird has access to priority, something that many other would kill to have.

- Mewtwo
Great speed and now able to go physical with the new mega stones. This mon since gen I is going around killing things now is more dangereus than ever. What really hinder him to be an S rank is the omnipresent priority.

- Dialga
Bulky attacker has ever been his definition. This is true more than ever in this renewed meta with a reliable way to control hasards in defog. With the introduction of fairy type his secondary STAB start to become useful. Great at supporting teams with SR and toxic Dialga is a very useful and versatile lead.

- Deoxys-A
Attack. No need for other descriptions. Sash leading with this mon is just too easy, and with defog it can clean up everything with his blazing speed and ESpeed. On top of that, if you need it, he can lay SR or other hazard/status.

B+:
- Groudon
Physically bulky and capable of deal some major damage with edge/quake and/or fire punch this behemoth is still a major threat. He can accomplish various role, from being the physical sponge to sweep with a double dance set. Just keep him away from burn. Gen VI has hindered a bit it's use cause sul won't last forever, anyway 5 turns are generally enough to get a couple of kill via Ho-oh or Reshiram.

- Zekrom
Mixed / paralysis-immune scarfer / banded AND with Volt switch. In this meta this black dragon is something to be ready for. His dual STAB is enough to hit nearly everything in uber environment, and when I say hit I mean hit HARD. Probably Zekrom is the best mixed attacker gen VI has to offer and electric is one of the best attacking type right now killing the 2 S-rank mon (Kyogre, Ho-oh). Too bad outrage is a bad move if the opponent has a fairy on his side.

- Arceus Water
Another support Arceus, well known for it's late game CM sweep set (behind recover and heal bell) or simply crippling things with status, roaring and such. Why water? Cause it resist water, ice and fire.

- Arceus Fairy
Say hallo to the newest Arceus form. If you don't like the deer cause it lacks a recovery move but you want a fairy on your side, this mon is what you need.

- Arceus Grass
Excellent at killing wheater setter and at crippling stuff. Plant-Arceus is always roaming around sponging hits with his great bulk.

- Arceus Ghost
Ghost is such a nice type with steel defensive nerf. ESpeed immunity, spinblocking, and attacking with a powerful STAB Shadow Force is something that worth consider while choosing an Arceus forme.

B:
- Blaziken
If you're able to let him set up a SD something will die to his dual STAB. Now able to survive a weak (only) attack with his Mega form and also find his was-mediocre speed buffed to an excellent 100. Gen VI gave this frail sweeper something great but a nice priority is always the best way to deal with it.

- Kangaskan
One of the best mega. The ability to break sub and sash and access to two priority moves are only half of his ability. Mega Kanga can wreck stuff with return, EQ, sismic toss, just don't let him statused.

- Aegislash
Blade and shield, literally. Xerneas main counter and a powerful threat. His signature move King's Shield is as powerful as (sometimes) predictible, but if used coupled with toxic and leftovers can be really effective. Steel and ghost stab are nothing to laugh at, especially with priority in shadow sneak. If you can manage you can also try to set up a SD set to wreck with great cover in rock and fighting.

- Chansey
Same old pink blobs. Knock off being buffed can be a let down for him but in uber environment there isn't many user.

- Darkrai
Sleep. Gen VI hasn't been kind to Darkrai making fairy resistant to both dark and fighting, and renewed sleep mechanic. Still a major threat with his fast dark void.

B-:
- Ferrothorn
Defog has harshly reduced his utility in spike stacking but his sub-seed tactics and a powerful gyro ball/power whip keep him a nice stall mon.

- Giratina
Rest-talk is always hard to break, now more than ever with WoW accuracy increase. But other than that against fairy it can't do much.

- Giratina-O
Dropped in use cause of fairy and a severe 4mss. Defog joining her arsenal is still something nice.

- Kyurem-W
Kill faster mons and than this beast will clean everything else. Problem is to accomplish phase 1.

- Genesect
Nothing changed here but the evolving meta isn't as scarf-Uturn weak as before.
 
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I would go so far as to argue that, unless it is redefined with lower standards, no Pokemon is worthy of S-rank in this generation.

There are some incredibly devastating sweepers this generation, but they usually have some fatal flaws which prevent them from managing to quite make S-rank. Xerneas needs Power Herb, which sucks on a lot of levels, and is checked by some already popular mons. Blaziken struggles to set up and hates that it has to give up Protect for necessary coverage, and even if all goes well it's still very vulnerable to some priority, relies on a recoil move and must have SR up to break Ho-Oh/Lugia. Extremekiller Arceus faces fewer specific checks than it did in the last generation, but instead suffers significantly from the overall shift away from offense, which means that Pokemon that can survive an attack from it at +2 are far more common.

Weather is no longer the team-defining force that it was last generation, and with this both Kyogre and Groudon have lost some of their former significance. Kyogre is still certainly an excellent and versatile Pokemon in its own right, but without lasting weather that contributed heavily to the viability of numerous Pokemon last generation, I feel it falls a little short of the god status that S-rank Pokemon have.

Similarly, nothing this generation is as mindlessly capable as Arceus-Ghost was in the last. It served as a potent spinblocker (which was invaluable to many teams then), provided good bulk and longevity when such was far less common, and quickly became a devastating sweeper which was very difficult to check and was able to set up repeatedly. Most importantly, it could perform all these roles virtually unsupported, and only required support insofar as any Pokemon ever appreciates it.

Of course, we should look at this generation on its own terms, rather than looking to a past generation for some standard of S-rank, but even so I simply cannot see any Pokemon quite live up to S-rank in this generation. Many top threats have some significant flaw. Few Pokemon can very effectively perform both offensive and defensive roles. Nothing bears such an influence upon the metagame as to help define it (although quite a few of them significantly affect teambuilding). And (although this was in my eyes always the weakest argument for the ranking of a Pokemon) in a metagame so populated by Arceus formes and Mega-Evolutions, opportunity cost is difficult to avoid.

I agree with this. The best mon right now is Ho-oh and he needs a bit of support (not much, but without that support his value is significantly lowered). Kyogre, Arceus normal, and Xerneas are all really good too but I don't feel like they fit the current definition of S rank either.
 
I'd like to nominate Mega Gengar for A+. He still does what he was banned form OU: destroy stall and any checks and counters for his team's sweeper(s). He's still taking out 2 pokemons of your enemy team, which is just ridiculous. The concept of counters and checks don't quite apply to him as he just "yolos away" with his perish song/destiny bond. He's still retarded. The only reason why I don't believe he's S is due to the mega evolution requiring a turn, which is a much bigger deal than it is in OU.

On the other side, I'd like to say that Blaziken, whether it is mega or not, is nowhere near S or A(+/-) tiers. While it absolutely wrecks teams in ubers, it is after it gets a +2. And it is MUCH easier to halt blaziken from getting a boost in ubers. To be quite honest, I can't believe how easily people give him a free turn to setup. Blaziken, imho, isn't all that amazing as a sweeper in ubers. The dedicated baton-pass set isn't too bad bt it's still not enough to land him a spot near S or A tiers. I'm addressing my opinions on blaziken mainly due to the nominations he's gotten as a top-tier pokemon.
 
Well.. gengar isn't the end of stall, since legitimate stall pokemon like giratina and aegilash are legitimate in stall, whilst gengar is weak to pursuit trapping; mega-scizor can always play around it, and it can also lure Sludge Wave/Bomb if paired with a fairy (such as clefable or xerneas which in stall are usable clerics) - gengar isn't the end of stall.

However, gengar is still capable of both offensive and utility sets, and is very versatile. It deserves to be in A rank somewhere - paired with kyogre it can be devastating.

I think mega-blaziken can be supported with dual screens along with stealth rocks, say from Deo-S.. Blaziken isn't good enough for A rank - it only has a couple of viable threats. It's frail, but even still it is offensively devistating.
 
On the other side, I'd like to say that Blaziken, whether it is mega or not, is nowhere near S or A(+/-) tiers. While it absolutely wrecks teams in ubers, it is after it gets a +2. And it is MUCH easier to halt blaziken from getting a boost in ubers. To be quite honest, I can't believe how easily people give him a free turn to setup. Blaziken, imho, isn't all that amazing as a sweeper in ubers. The dedicated baton-pass set isn't too bad bt it's still not enough to land him a spot near S or A tiers. I'm addressing my opinions on blaziken mainly due to the nominations he's gotten as a top-tier pokemon.
Its definitely not S, its easy revenged by Arceus and Kangashkhan two top threats. However its absolutely A-Rank since it destroys stall and teams w/o strong priority. The only viable thing that can take a attack after +2 is physically defensive arceus-formes not weak to any of its moves (Water and Fairy).

And its not easy to stop Blaziken from setting up, it can set up on szicor, aegislash, jirachi etc. If need be it can take a hit from a support arceus. and its not like you can stay in with your aegislash, if you do you lose to Xerneas. And it doesnt need to run SD+3 attacks. It can drop SD or knock off for protect and it can run a BP set.
 
This post might be a little controversial as I see it, and I expect a lot of good discussion coming out of it.

Extremekiller Arceus is still on unparalleled level amongst the members of this tier and there are three reasons I will outline in this post. First off I don't give two shits about the "criteria for S-rank" since these are bias towards versatile mons like gen5 Dialga, aka mons that can do a lot of things okay but doesn't have a role that it is "best at." If a mon has one thing going for it and it is so good at it, it doesn't really matter whether it can run other sets (see gen5 Genesect). For Extremekiller Arceus, this stands true, because it obviously has only one set going for it- this set however excels on an entirely different level than that of any Pokémon in the game. Why is it so needed that a Pokémon should beat both offensive and defensive capabilities? Why must a Pokémon in S-rank be able to fulfill different roes if it fills one role to such excellence?

The only thing a S-ranked Pokémon needs in my eyes are:
  • Either massive, unmatched defensive OR offensive qualities, or in some cases they have both.
  • Capable of fulfilling multiple roles on defensive or offensive ends, both ends or simply fulfilling one role at either end that it fulfills to almost absolute perfection.
  • Require no support.
  • Have immense utility to offer.
There is absolutely no logical reason to ever demand Pokémon to fulfill multiple, both offensive and defensive roles when such a Pokémon have one role if fulfills in such a way that even the factor of surprise will not matter. Onto my three reasons on why Extremekiller Arceus belongs to the highest rank there is.

Many of its old checks and counters have diminished in value, stressing teambuilding to the point where it actually has less viable check and counters than it had before.
Yes, this is true and I think we can all agree on that the following: Terrakion, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Excadrill (sand rush), Forretress, Kabutops, Omastar, Arceus-Fighting, Genesect, Giratina-O (and A for that matter) and Arceus-Ghost were in some way or another able to either counter, revenge-kill or soft-check Arceus-Normal. All these have one thing in common- they are all worse than they were in BW. Exceptions can be made, however, and there are some teams where Choice Scarf Terrakion still fits on, there are some uses of Ferrothorn and Giratina-O but in general these checks were better off before the transition into the XY metagame.
Also, do note that some of these mons, like Genesect could only revenge-kill a weakened Arceus while at the same time being very healthy itself, but my bottom line still stands through- a healthy Genesect was a roadblock towards your sweep.

What did emerge in this generation as in means of handling Extremekiller? Defensive Yveltal, Mega Scizor, Kangaskhan as well as Gengar deserves a mention. Defensive Yveltal still loses as it switches in, but in the same vein Arceus-Fighting was a good check last generation, Yveltal is in this generation. Scizor has some trouble taking Life Orbed Earthquakes and can obviously get wrecked by the rare Fire move, but is otherwise a fine check. Kangaskhan can chip off damage with Fake Out, and can with sacrifices of other team members be a quite okay emergency way of handling it, although not a way that should be relied upon. Lastly, Gengar can when mega-evolved outspeed even Jolly variants and Destiny Bond you down- this is never going to be a consistent method as it requires both a sacrifice and the fact that Gengar must be mega evolved already. Lugia is a check that have arguably gotten better in the transition, and I really can't argue against that except for the fact that it is Taunt-weak which makes it very manageable for your teammates. Even if this is an evidence of support need, a Taunt-user fits nicely on most teams anyway, not in the same vein that Stealth Rock is a must on any team, but still. Speaking of Stealth Rock, that is obviously another way for Extremekiller to get past Lugia somehow.

Lastly, even though Will-o-wisp using Arceus-Formes are more popular this generation mainly due to the accuracy buff on this move, these aren't consistent methods any player should use as their stand alone method of checking Extremekiller, since Normal-resisting formes like Steel and Rock fall to a Jolly Life Orb Earthquake at +2 as well as Lum Berry variants- while the formes that doesn't resist Extremespeed will more than likely fall even though they manage to burn it (as well as the fact that pushing these formes into +2 Extremespeed range is easier, and that Lum Berry Arceus still beats these). As with this, I conclude that Arceus-Normal has fewer checks than it used to have.

Extremekiller Arceus has to contend with less opportunity cost in this generation
While people usually see the opposite in this case, this is nothing but a false fact. Support Arceus with Defog are viable, yes, but they aren't needed on any teams without hilariously hazard weak mons, like Ho-oh and Lugia. Because of the buffed Defog, not many teams do in fact deploy old spike-stacking strategies. Even stall teams finds themselves more reliant on status than entry hazards to get needed chip damage to win games. Another important notion here is: if Gen 5 Ubers was more hazard centric, then why did many successful teams not have countermeasures to entry hazards? The answer here is rhetoric- many teams were built so they didn't have a big weakness to hazard based strategies and the members on those teams were picked because they were excellent at taking advantage of the free turns hazard setting gave them, as well as their good ability to deal with hazard setters in what would be a more proactive way. A Defog Arceus is passive at removing hazards- for more offensive teams these proactive ways to deal with opposing hazard setters are still good, even in XY. With most teams only carrying Stealth Rock as their entry hazard of choice, dealing with entry hazards is maybe even less needed?

Was there more opportunity cost using Extremekiller-Arceus last generation? Yes, with Arceus-Ghost in S-rank and Arceus-Fighting being really good, even I as an avid user of it always considered the cost of not using support Fightceus or CM Ghostceus. As it turned out, the two teams I found best out of my hand-made teams in the previous generation had a CM Arceus-Ghost and a support Fightceus, respectively.

This generation is different. Arceus-Ghost's utility as a spinblocker and sweeper is diminished. Its SD set isn't nearly as good as some people think it is- the lack of strong priority hurts it (see my next point) and Arceus-Fighting is a mon we shouldn't even focus too much on in this generation, which is sad.
The opportunity cost instead comes from Defog Arceus, but as I outlined earlier, only teams with a clear need of having hazards off their field will need a Defog-user. Since Defog removes hazards from both sides of the field it may be good for you to actually get your Stealth Rock up to pressure these kinds of teams (I'm mainly talking Ho-oh based ones btw) to using Defog, giving you free turns. Unless you absolutely need it, you can most likely force your opponent to waste turns using Defog while you really won't care if there is SR on both sides of the field. This is why you can never claim that you are giving up the opportunity to use Defog Arceus when you have opted for Extremekiller Arceus, unless your team in fact desperately need this support, and not nearly as many teams do in fact need it, as opposed to what many people think.

Typing wise, yes, Extremekiller isn't providing much synergy but you provide offensive synergy and revenge killing ability on many types of teams. Your offensive presence makes your opponent very wary of letting of his/her means to stop it before it has revealed itself, but more about its actual qualities in my next point.
Extremekiller Arceus is the best revenge-killer in the game- and in extension it is a check to nearly every sweeper in existence
Outside its sweeping capabilities , which I in fact never even mentioned (I mentioned how it has checks, not how easy it is to sweep late game) Arceus-Normal is the best revenge killer in the game. There is no surprise that in the CC section of the usage stats, this Pokémon is far more represented that anything in the game. If you can't OHKO what you want to pick off, you can sometimes (most of the time) nab a SD and countersweep. This immense utility along with its offensive presence more than makes up for the lack of a Defog Arceus on many teams. Especially useful is its ability to pick of Mega-Blaziken at around 60-70 %, something really valuable for all teams. In my eyes, only Kangaskhan is close to Extremekiller Arceus's level of revenge killing fast sweepers.

Now release the kraken
 
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This post might be a little controversial as I see it, and I expect a lot of good discussion coming out of it.

Extremekiller Arceus is still on unparalleled level amongst the members of this tier and there are three reasons I will outline in this post. First off I don't give two shits about the "criteria for S-rank" since these are bias towards versatile mons like Dialga, aka mons that can do a lot of things okay but doesn't have a role that it is "best at." If a mon has one thing going for it and it is so good at it, it doesn't really matter whether it can run other sets (see gen5 Genesect). For Extremekiller Arceus, this stands true, because it obviously has only one set going for it- this set however excels on an entirely different level than that of any Pokémon in the game. Why is it so needed that a Pokémon should beat both offensive and defensive capabilities? Why must a Pokémon in S-rank be able to fulfill different roes if it fills one role to such excellence?

The only thing a S-ranked Pokémon needs in my eyes are:
  • Either massive, unmatched defensive OR offensive qualities, or in some cases they have both.
  • Capable of fulfilling multiple roles on defensive or offensive ends, both ends or simply fulfilling one role at either end that it fulfills to almost absolute perfection.
  • Require no support.
  • Have immense utility to offer.
There is absolutely no logical reason to ever demand Pokémon to fulfill multiple, both offensive and defensive roles when such a Pokémon have one role if fulfills in such a way that even the factor of surprise will not matter (see Genesect and Deoxys-S, two S-rank worthy mons in gen5). Onto my three reasons on why Extremekiller Arceus belongs to the highest rank there is.

I'm not entirely sure where I stand on Arceus-Normal itself, but I'd like to chime in and support a change to the definition of a S-rank Pokemon in the Ubers metagame. I personally think that requiring offense prowess, defensive strength, versatility, no opportunity cost, no support required, etc. etc. is too much, and that if a Pokemon is extreme powerful and efficient in its role, then it deserves consideration for S-rank. In Ubers, where almost half the Pokemon in the tier start with Arceus- (aka a fairly small tier), I think that the qualifications for S-rank should be diminished. Others have also stated that unless we adapt the definition of S-rank a little bit, we probably won't have any, so... any responses?

Also, Mewtwo / Mega Mewtwo Y play fairly differently from Mega Mewtwo X - they even have a different typing and hit on different sides (special / physical) - so maybe they should be tiered separately?
 
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kebabe said:
A-
Arceus Rock - Checks Ho-Oh and will-o-wisps stuff, thats about it.

Palkia - One of the few checks to Kyogre, isnt nearly as threatening as in gen5 with the new fairy type and the base power drops.

Dialga - Sets SR and can pressure defogers, Specs is also ok.

Scizor - Can use both CB and its megastone to check stuff like Xerneas, access to moves like toxic, roost, Bullet Punch and SD makes it so it can take many roles.

Deoxys-S and -A - Defog was a huge setback but they are still necessary on Hyper offensive teams.

Lugia- Walls a lot of stuff
I agree with what Kebabe's said so far on Scizor but I think B is a better rank for Scizor then A. For starters, Scizor, simply put, isn't that threatening. Its not going to deter any Arceus from setting up Calm Minds or switch into Specs Kyogre and absorb Water Spout or anything like that. The reason why its so good in the tier is a combination of typing, ability, movepool, and somewhat modest stats that lets it act as excellent utility. Like you said it can check Xerneas, but not only that it also messes with enemy Gengar, Pursuit trapping it if it correctly switches in on a predicted Sludge Bomb. It can Defog for a team, freeing up that Arceus slot for something else. Bullet Punch in general is great for picking off weakened stuff.

Its stats still pale in comparison to everything else though, its got to invest heavily in special defense to absorb hits nicely (or you can maximize attack, still won't it that hard but its special defense will drop considerably). Due to this its got a good bit of opportunity cost, and is generally only used when ya wanna compress a ton of roles (Mega Gengar Pursuiter + Xern check + Defog in one for example), or need it for that great typing synergy it contributes. Its got a embedded niche as a result, it compresses a lot of needed roles into one solid mon, and to boot its got decent (not great) stats, its certainly no Gastrodon in terms of utility outside of its main role. U-turn helps a lot with pairing up its average offenses allowing momentum to be kept.

Looking again at the definition for B rank:
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

What's strange about Scizor is that it matches three of the five criteria needed for B rank. The other two criteria are rather strange. Its supposed to support the team, it doesn't really need any support to do its roles, suggesting it should be above B rank. However its offenses and defenses aren't all that great, they're really only enough to get its job done, U-turn helps a bit but it doesn't remedy this completely, suggesting it should be lower then B rank.

Since Scizor doesn't need support to do its roles, that compensates for its average offensive and defensive capabilities IMO, and as a result makes it a solid B-tier mon.

blitzlefan said:
Also, Mewtwo / Mega Mewtwo Y play fairly differently from Mega Mewtwo X - they even have a different typing and hit on different sides (special / physical) - so maybe they should be tiered separately?

Melee Mewtwo said in the rules they wouldn't be tiered seperately (probably because you won't know which form and it makes weird stuff like where to place normal Kangaskhan), but I'm all for seperating the two (three?) Mewtwo's out, since its normal form is actually very viable. I'll post later what I think there tiers should be later if this does happen.

blitzlefan said:
I'm not entirely sure where I stand on Arceus-Normal itself, but I'd like to chime in and support a change to the definition of a S-rank Pokemon in the Ubers metagame. I personally think that requiring offense prowess, defensive strength, versatility, no opportunity cost, no support required, etc. etc. is too much, and that if a Pokemon is extreme powerful and efficient in its role, then it deserves consideration of S-rank. In Ubers, where almost half the Pokemon in the tier start with Arceus- (aka a fairly small tier), I think that the qualification for S-rank should be diminished.Others have also stated that unless we adapt the definition of S-rank a little bit, we probably won't have any, so... any ideas?

Well if its a small or even non-existent tier I wouldn't say its necessarily a bad thing, that just means there's little or no Pokemon that can reach the S rank definition and as a result there's very few pokemon that dominate the ubers metagame (which makes sense sorta no?). I guess a new definition wouldn't hurt at all though.

If we do change the S-tier definition, I would make it so that its includes Versatile Specialists (a pokemon that does exceedingly well in a certain role and can do other roles if needed, and as a result has very little opportunity cost, support is optional and not necessary). IMO this would open up the barrel to have multiple things included (like Yveltal and Kyogre maybe Arceus Normal? Its still in a limbo between A and S but now it leans more to S), and now requiring both offensive and defensive capabilities is no longer needed.

This probably isn't the best definition but its the best I could think of I guess.

EDIT: Hack also came up with a wonderful definition
Hack said:
The only thing a S-ranked Pokémon needs in my eyes are:
  • Either massive, unmatched defensive OR offensive qualities, or in some cases they have both.
  • Capable of fulfilling multiple roles on defensive or offensive ends, both ends or simply fulfilling one role at either end that it fulfills to almost absolute perfection.
  • Require no support.
  • Have immense utility to offer.
thoughts?
 
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I typically don't place much emphasis on the "criteria" for ranking a Pokemon's viability as I see such a method as ineffective. A quick look at the definition of a S-Rank Pokemon reveals that Dialga fits into the category despite many evidence pointing to the contrary.

A set of viability guidelines will do little more than pick a Pokemon apart piece by piece in a futile attempt to determine its standings in regard to other Pokemon and the general metagame. Such microscopic techniques don't work well in a macroscopic situation.

I believe we as Uber players, some of us who played hundreds of Uber games, know how to determine a Pokemon's viability better than a set of discrete criteria.
 
Chansey for B+ or A

There are several things that make ubers chansey friendly. The ubers metagame is more special oriented, usually lacks fighting types (except mewtwo x) and at the moment has almost no knock off users. This means eviolite chansey is able to wall a lot of the metagame. There are also fewer ground types so thunder wave is able to cripple most special sweepers. Toxic can also be used to wear down stuff. Chansey can also wish pash and provide aromatherapy support in a defensive oriented ubers team.
 
Just going got respond to the points raised concerning the fundamentals of this thread. I may eventually get around to expressing my own views concerning these Pokemon but not now.

Obviously, the general goal of this thread is to determine how generally viable a Pokemon is. In other words, how easily can you slot the Pokemon on a team. This part really isn't up for debate, you'd have to make a different thread if you have a different vision.

The rankings are a way to organize this list by grouping Pokemon of similar viability. The goal is to break them down into general levels of how easily a Pokemon can be added to a team based on the advantages and disadvantages they bring. Keep in mind, this grouping is done by Pokemon as a whole and not specific sets. I seems like a few posters are confusing the "offensive and defensive capabilities" as attributes that need to apply to certain set (in this case Ekiller) when really they are meant to apply to the Pokemon as a whole. (so Ekiller + Wallceus for Arceus-Normal)

Now to respond to the suggestion of adding role specialists type criteria for S rank. The idea behind S rank is that these Pokemon are extremely easy to fit on teams because they can accomplish so much in so many different ways that, regardless of your team skeleton, odds are X Pokemon would fit on your team. So then the question being raised here is essentially: "Why not consider a Pokemon that is beyond much doubt the most capable in a roll with little peers as one of these types of Pokemon?" Taking gen 5 Genesect as an example, even though it was rarely useful outside of the Choice Scarf revenge killer role it was so good at this role that it found a place on a large majority of teams. Now, although these divisions are subjective, I feel the issue with these type of Pokemon is that not every team actually needs whatever role this specialist exceeds in. For example, teams that strived to have a maximum amount of switching ability to reduce the damage they received when a Pokemon was forced out and minimize prediction in those scenarios (often dubbed "hard stall") wouldn't require a role like Genesect's and would in most cases be better off with a completely different Pokemon. This is what I feel is the fine line between the S division where Pokemon such as Kyogre (in gen 5) are so efficient in multiple areas that many different team concepts would consider them (and likely add them) for one of the roles they require and the A division where you have Pokemon like Genesect that are going to be your first thoughts when you look at specific roles but may not be valued in others. So basically I feel this role specialist criteria already exists in the A division where I feel it should remain because of that inability to be beneficial to as many team types due to their specialization.

As for splitting Mewtwo. Although it is true that there large differences between MMX, MMY, and Classic, you don't see these differences until after they have attacked. Which is the same way you would typically find out about a Choice Scarf Kyogre vs a SpDef one. Basically, as different as the Mewtwos are, they are essentially different sets you can run on a Mewtwo. This is different from the Arceus formes that are very different and recognizable as soon as they come into play (they just have the unique perk of remaining unknown in the team preview) thus essentially a different Pokemon. (except they are actually different formes)

Now to respond to various points in relation to the above concerns:

I personally think that requiring offense prowess, defensive strength, versatility, no opportunity cost, no support required, etc. etc. is too much,
I'm agreeing with Polop in there there is by no means an obligation to have an S rank Pokemon. If nothing currently fits the criteria then so be it. I disagree with the concept of editing the descriptions that have been established since last gen to fill up empty space when the game itself hasn't seen such radical changes that they have become outdated. This is just a metagame shift.

I typically don't place much emphasis on the "criteria" for ranking a Pokemon's viability as I see such a method as ineffective. A quick look at the definition of a S-Rank Pokemon reveals that Dialga fits into the category despite many evidence pointing to the contrary.
The thing is that there is always going to be criteria, you can't avoid it. These are just written so that there is a consistency in the reasoning and so things won't stray from the original purpose. (which I feel is actually happening here) As for your example, if Dialga fits the S rank definition then it fits the S rank definition. Your argument against it is essentially the personal incredulity fallacy that stems from the difference between the written criteria and your personal, internal one that you use to determine viability. Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that, I'm just going to favor the written one because I feel there needs to be some consistency in this thread by having a common ground to justify arguments and decisions.

To be honest, I don't think there's a pokemon that fits perfectly in the S-rank, everything has a major flaw in this generation
I know we already talked about it on IRC but because you aren't the first to express this I want to address it here. The goal of this thread isn't to organize Pokemon based on their amount of perfection but rather their generally viability in teambuilding. S rank Pokemon can have flaws (and for the sake of the ubers metagame I hope they do) as long as they don't interfere with their general viability described by the criteria.

Thanks for the posts guys, keep it coming. Just don't stray off too far. :p
 
I typically don't place much emphasis on the "criteria" for ranking a Pokemon's viability as I see such a method as ineffective. A quick look at the definition of a S-Rank Pokemon reveals that Dialga fits into the category despite many evidence pointing to the contrary.
A set of viability guidelines will do little more than pick a Pokemon apart piece by piece in a futile attempt to determine its standings in regard to other Pokemon and the general metagame. Such microscopic techniques don't work well in a macroscopic situation.

I believe we as Uber players, some of us who played hundreds of Uber games, know how to determine a Pokemon's viability better than a set of discrete criteria.
Um Dialga actually doesn't fall into the S rank by definition. Its defenses are mediocre by uber standards and it gets no true reliable recovery. It was diverse last gen, being capable of running multiple sets, in fact it was a very real candidate for S rank. This gen err... I really haven't seen any effective ones aside Support Dialga (or 3 atks + SR, beats common defogers), and All-out-attacker. Its only got moderate offensive potential which is somewhat hampered by its middling speed. Its got tons of opportunity cost (why use dialga for a sr user when you can use something else like Hippo which walls ho-oh as well?), its carved itself a niche in being able to break down certain stall cores (and be a real pain for Defogers but its got coverage issues if it chooses to use SR...), but even then you've got some opportunity cost when you invest a full teamslot for it.

Now this is what S rank is defined as:
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.

The only part Dialga really fulfills in this definition is where it doesn't require support, and even then that's arguable since it needs support to help break apart certain cores (lol its not beating Chansey in a million years).

I'm pretty sure Dialga is better fit in B rank as its pretty much fits every criteria:
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with large offensive or defensive capability. They are designed to serve specific roles for a team and may offer valuable utility. They often need certain amounts of support and/or suffer to a degree from opportunity cost.

It could be argued for it to be low A rank as well just due to the sheer stat and type combo that it gets which makes it unique (and hence decreases opportunity cost), but I wouldn't place it any higher.
 
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