Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[farranpoison]

So... Exploud anyone?

Seeing it's being QC'd in OU right now, I'm pretty sure it means that this guys is somewhat decent. When Specs Boomburst threatens to 2HKO 252 HP/252 SpD+ Florges and mons that 2x resist it, that's nothing to sneeze at. And with Scrappy, it literally only needs to be wary of Rock/Steels, which Focus Blast handles with aplomb.

However, it's Exploud. Meh bulk, speed, and only 91 SpA hinders this mon greatly. With its sheer power alone, however, it's probably good enough to go C Rank or C+ at most.

Anyone else have experience with this screaming shouter?

Edit: I'd also like to nominate Porygon2 for B Rank at most. The duck is still as bulky as ever, and with less focus on Fighting types in the meta right now and the nerf in special attacks across the board, Porygon2 can do its job of walling dangerous threats easier, with Trace to help it along. When you can avoid being 2HKO'd by Specs Latios's DM, that's great. Reliable recovery never hurts either.

 

[Fuzznip]

Exploud's definitely viable. Boomburst hits mad hard and it basically 2HKOes or OHKOs everything that isn't a defensive behemoth. Common stuff that like to sponge it, such as Genesect, Scizor, and Aegislash, are obliterated by Overheat/Flamethrower. Tyranitar is also handily hit hard by Focus Blast. I mean, there's not much that can switch into a good Exploud user with that power and coverage. It's not that frail either, it has usable bulk. The Speed is a serious issue, but I like pairing it with para spreaders/Sticky Web.

I'd give it a C.

 

[Josh Morales]

Next, Rotom-Wash for S rank.

...

Does it have any glaring type weaknesses? No, Grass-type moves are fairly uncommon, and usually found on tanks or as weak coverage moves. Mold Breaker Earthquakes are a threat, but I'd hardly call that a flaw, considering that Excadrill is the only user, and it doesn't like Hydro Pump.

...

I'm gonna be that guy and mention that Mega Gyarados also has Mold Breaker Earthquakes :D

Otherwise, I 100% agree with what November said.

By the way do Mega Houndoom and Mega Ampharos deserve a rank? They're some of my favorite underrated Megas and they're definately OU viable, imo, but it's just hard to use 'em with MegaLuke and other stuff still running around.

 

[Jukain]

o crawdaunt isn't here

Nominating Crawdaunt for C+/B- Tier. Crawdaunt went from only usable with Tailwind Tornadus to a legit threat this gen with Aqua Jet + Adaptability and the Knock Off buff. All said, Crawdaunt is a total monster in terms of power. A simple CB set with Aqua Jet / Crab Hammer / Knock Off / filler totally crushes so many things to pieces. Priority is so prevalent and important in this metagame, and Crawdaunt's stands out as among the strongest. Knock Off is an absolutely excellent move, giving it a huge source of power. Crawdaunt is slow (though this is made up for by its priority somewhat) and pretty frail with some common weaknesses, but those don't stop it from punching massive holes in teams if played correctly. I lean toward C+ Tier in this nomination, but a case could be made for B- Tier. There's not really a whole lot else to say; Crawdaunt is powerful as all hell but has very significant shortcomings.

 

[AOPSUser]

I'm gonna be that guy and mention that Mega Gyarados also has Mold Breaker Earthquakes :D

Otherwise, I 100% agree with what November said.

By the way do Mega Houndoom and Mega Ampharos deserve a rank? They're some of my favorite underrated Megas and they're definately OU viable but it's just hard to use 'em with MegaLuke and other stuff still running around.

Mega Manectric is probably B or B- Rank. Thanks to its high speed and Intimidate, it is one of the best speedy pivots in existence, and pairing it with another Intimidate mon, such as Gyarados, can force many switches, which can be especially dangerous considering it gives Gyarados or Salamence a free turn. It comes with opportunity cost though, as you have to use Manectric and your Mega slot, but for VoltTurn teams it's a good choice.

I don't really see Mega Houndoom that high though. Its Speed, while impressive, leaves it outsped by Scarfers, its Special Attack is not too good without a Life Orb or Choice Specs backing it, and the Sun nerf hit it really hard. I think it might fit in C Rank.

 

[Josh Morales]

Mega Manectric is probably B or B- Rank. Thanks to its high speed and Intimidate, it is one of the best speedy pivots in existence, and pairing it with another Intimidate mon, such as Gyarados, can force many switches, which can be especially dangerous considering it gives Gyarados or Salamence a free turn. It comes with opportunity cost though, as you have to use Manectric and your Mega slot, but for VoltTurn teams it's a good choice.

I don't really see Mega Houndoom that high though. Its Speed, while impressive, leaves it outsped by Scarfers, its Special Attack is not too good without a Life Orb or Choice Specs backing it, and the Sun nerf hit it really hard. I think it might fit in C Rank.

I agree on Mega Manectric but as for Mega Houndoom, if you use Sunny Day as your set up move, it acts as a 2.25x boost to your SpA every time you use a fire type attack and counting STAB it's a 3.375x boost. It also has good coverage moves in Solar Beam and STAB Dark Pulse and we know how good Dark-type STABs are. 140 SpA might seem underwhelming with no item but when your Fire-type attack get boosted in power by 3.375x it's nothing to joke about.

 

[Rotosect]

There is no point in setting up Sunny Day with M-Houndoom when it gets Nasty Plot. A slightly stronger Fire Blast isn't worth the HP loss at every turn and the weaker boost to its other moves. For example, Nasty Plot M-Houndoom can actually 2HKO specially defensive Heatran with Dark Pulse, while Sunny Day variants can't.
M-Houndoom requires Drought support to be effective, which means it needs to be paired with Ninetales, something that is far from optimal for team synergy.
Because of this, I think it's C-rank at best.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

There is no point in setting up Sunny Day with M-Houndoom when it gets Nasty Plot. A slightly stronger Fire Blast isn't worth the HP loss at every turn and the weaker boost to its other moves.
M-Houndoom requires Drought support to be effective, which means it needs to be paired with Ninetales, something that is far from optimal for team synergy.
Because of this, I think it's C-rank at best.

You could use Heat Rock Sunny Day support as well >.> But honestly I don't think you really need Sunny Day support at all with Mega Houndoom. Base 140 SpAtk with Nasty Plot hurts either way. It also outspeeds a significant portion of OU and has good coverage to boot! What more could you ask for?

 

[Ash Borer]

MEga doom needs solarbeam to function against water types and rock types in general, and sunny day supports its team. It's a sun sweeper, it doesnt belong on a non sun team. The nasty plot set is very easy to check considering its cleanly OHKO'd by talonflame. If you want a nasty plot sweeper mega lucario, or manaphy do the job kind of better imo.

 

[Josh Morales]

MEga doom needs solarbeam to function against water types and rock types in general, and sunny day supports its team. It's a sun sweeper, it doesnt belong on a non sun team. The nasty plot set is very easy to check considering its cleanly OHKO'd by talonflame. If you want a nasty plot sweeper mega lucario, or manaphy do the job kind of better imo.

Yeah, it is looking like it's somewhere around a C.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

That pretty much completely spells it out.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

MEga doom needs solarbeam to function against water types and rock types in general, and sunny day supports its team. It's a sun sweeper, it doesnt belong on a non sun team. The nasty plot set is very easy to check considering its cleanly OHKO'd by talonflame. If you want a nasty plot sweeper mega lucario, or manaphy do the job kind of better imo.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 256-303 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not sure if trolling =.= Mega Houndoom is not Manaphy or Mega Lucario, comparing either one of them to another is pointless.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 256-303 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not sure if trolling =.= Mega Houndoom is not Manaphy or Mega Lucario, comparing either one of them to another is pointless.

Um...
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 129-153 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 190-225 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 270-320 (92.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 390-462 (133.5 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 306-360 (104.7 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 206-243 (63.7 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 426-504 (145.8 - 172.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 402-474 (137.6 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

We can play calcs all day, but no recovery and weakness to SR on top of needing to pull off a Nasty Plot to try to kill most things that aren't steel+grass/bug types which most weaker fire attacks kill anyway just doesn't help MHoundoom. However, having access to nice moves like Destiny Bond and Sludge Bomb are nice. I'd give him a solid B, maybe B+ since MAlakazam is in B, and that's just a horrible mega compared to his superior prior form that has access to items.

Also why isn't Klefki in A yet? The T-wave+Swagplay is broken. At least B+.

 

[Josh Morales]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 256-303 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not sure if trolling =.= Mega Houndoom is not Manaphy or Mega Lucario, comparing either one of them to another is pointless.

You don't use Nasty Plot because you need Solar Beam to function against Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types and you don't use Ninetales because Ninetales and Houndoom have aweful synergy other than Houndoom's ability, but it's not really worth it, so you use Sunny Day as your setup move.

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 392-462 (128.9 - 151.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W in Sun: 284-336 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Specially Defensive Rotom-W isn't relevant but the point is that a Solar Power Solar Beam obliterates any kind of the ever-present Rotom-W

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sun: 412-486 (101.9 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sun: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This proves that even Tyranitar isn't safe from a Solar Beam. Even if it's the most Specially Defensive Tyranitar, it just has to be half weakened, which it most likely will by mid game due to the nature of AV, before Solar Beam KOs it and on other Tyranitar sets it's just flat out OHKOed.

 

[Ash Borer]

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 256-303 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 261-307 (85.8 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 368-436 (91 - 107.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Not sure if trolling =.= Mega Houndoom is not Manaphy or Mega Lucario, comparing either one of them to another is pointless.

all I see is a dead houndoom after stealth rock damage, or any form of chip damage as it comes in, and the turn it sets up with. Common scarfers waste it, the ever popular AV conkeldurr wastes it, and without solarbeam, Keldeo and Terrakion waste it. By your calculations we see that for nasty plot houndoom to even function against shit that isnt on teams to check it it needs the support to

a) come in without taking any damage at all
b) set up without taking any damage at all
c) Have SR up on their side of the field
d) have SR off your side of the field

and even then still common pokemon beat it easily. Mega Lucario struggles far less with revenge killers thanks to its priority, as well Manaphy has far more bulk. Sun Houndoom can act as a pure attacker, and can defeat sun counters with destiny bond, its much better.

 

[Josh Morales]

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion in Sun: 450-530 (139.3 - 164%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Solar Power Mega Houndoom Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 450-530 (139.3 - 164%) -- guaranteed OHKO

More reason to run Sunny Day over Nasty Plot

 

[Jukain]

Also why isn't Klefki in A yet? The T-wave+Swagplay is broken. At least B+.

There's been like a million suggestions for this. TWave Swagplay is not broken nor even really good. The fact is that Swagger is an extremely unreliable move. Confusion typically breaks within 1-2 turns, and almost always after three to four turns. I might just be lucky, but I rarely have more than three to four turns in which Swagger + Thunder Wave renders me incapable of doing anything. Once confusion wears off (Foul Play isn't STAB so it isn't even doing /that/ much damage), you have a +2 Attack Pokemon sitting on the other side of the field ready to sweep your team.

There are people probably able to explain that better than me, but that's the basic gist of why TWave Swagplay is not a good strategy.

 

[Josh Morales]

There's been like a million suggestions for this. TWave Swagplay is not broken nor even really good. The fact is that Swagger is an extremely unreliable move. Confusion typically breaks within 1-2 turns, and almost always after three turns. I might just be lucky, but I rarely have more than three turns in which Swagger + Thunder Wave renders me incapable of doing anything. Once confusion wears off (Foul Play isn't STAB so it isn't even doing /that/ much damage), you have a +2 Attack Pokemon sitting on the other side of the field ready to sweep your team.

There are people probably able to explain that better than me, but that's the basic gist of why TWave Swagplay is not a good strategy.

You must be the luckiest man alive.

 

[Ajwf]

It may not be a good strategy, but I've watched swaggerplay teams beat any well put together team. Really, there ARE ways around it, but one of the most effective teams just ran lucario-mega as a sweeper and cleared all the blisseys and special walls that got rid around it. There is only one way to consistently beat a swagger play team and that is to constantly switch and have a pokemon like chansey/blissey which is basically immune to swagger. I'd give it an EASY B+ because even though it is luck, Klefki is playing the most controlled game of luck I've ever seen. Paralysis is a 25% chance to not move. Confusion is a 50% chance to hurt yourself. Substitute gives leniency for one time to break through. That's a betting man's game of luck right there and it is insanely frustrating to play, especially if they have hazards up on you, forcing you to constantly switch over them.

 

[Jukain]

You must be the luckiest man alive.

It's a 50/50 chance to hit through confusion. Aka, a 50/50 chance for the opponent to get fucked. I guess you add para on top of that but seriously I wouldn't fight Klefki with something not immune to or benefits from para (think any Ground/Electric, Conkeldurr). Even then, eventually you hit through the hax. There are also two excellent strategies that demolish TWave Swagplay Klefki: switching and Taunt.

I can understand a move to B because of Spikes + TWave shenanigans, but not higher, and not because of the unreliable TWave Swagplay set.

 

[Josh Morales]

It's a 50/50 chance to hit through confusion. Aka, a 50/50 chance for the opponent to get fucked. I guess you add para on top of that but seriously I wouldn't fight Klefki with something not immune to or benefits from para (think any Ground/Electric, Conkeldurr). Even then, eventually you hit through the hax. There are also two excellent strategies that demolish TWave Swagplay Klefki: switching and Taunt.

I can understand a move to B because of Spikes + confusion shenanigans, but not higher, and not because of the unreliable TWave Swagplay set.

And the very slight 25% of the time you attack(and we both know that 25% is 2.5% in the pokemon world)... you hit a substitute at least 3 times. and every time you don't attack, you do a shit load of damage to yourself because of +2 confusion and foul play.

 

[Jukain]

And the very slight 25% of the time you attack... you hit a substitute at least 3 times. and every time you don't attack, you do a shit load of damage to yourself because of +2 confusion and foul play.

It's a 37.5% chance to attack. .5 * 100 = 50, .75 * 50 = 37.5. You multiply percentages, you don't add them.

 

[TrippingRocks]

It's a 50/50 chance to hit through confusion. Aka, a 50/50 chance for the opponent to get fucked. I guess you add para on top of that but seriously I wouldn't fight Klefki with something not immune to or benefits from para (think any Ground/Electric, Conkeldurr). Even then, eventually you hit through the hax. There are also two excellent strategies that demolish TWave Swagplay Klefki: switching and Taunt.

I can understand a move to B because of Spikes + confusion shenanigans, but not higher, and not because of the unreliable TWave Swagplay set.

With paralysis and confusion, you have a 37.5% chance of breaking through both of them. If you're using a heavy hitter, the hit to self from confusion can do a lot of damage. Switching in and out may result in having a portion of your team getting paralyzed. The Klefki user can stall for time by using substitute until you hit yourself/get fully paralyzed. And then use Foul Play, which gets juiced up from Swagger. If you break through the para-fusion, you'll be left with a pokemon at +2, but the odds are not in your favor.

 

[Josh Morales]

It's a 37.5% chance to attack. .5 * 100 = 50, .75 * 50 = 37.5. You multiply percentages, you don't add them.

You're right on that but my point remains.

 

[Josh Morales]

With paralysis and confusion, you have a 37.5% chance of breaking through both of them. If you're using a heavy hitter, the hit to self from confusion can do a lot of damage. Switching in and out may result in having a portion of your team getting paralyzed. The Klefki user can stall for time by using substitute until you hit yourself/get fully paralyzed. And then use Foul Play, which gets juiced up from Swagger. If you break through the para-fusion, you'll be left with a pokemon at +2, but the odds are not in your favor.

Yea and there's practically no opportunity cost for using Klefki. It's easy as hell to just slap it on your team with its incredible typing and the SwagPlay set pretty much guarantees success by badly damage or killing a significant portion of the enemy team as well as crippling a significant portion of the enemy team with T-Wave. I despise that thing so much I'd nominate it for S rank but I know how quickly that would be rejected.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

It's a 50/50 chance to hit through confusion. Aka, a 50/50 chance for the opponent to get fucked. I guess you add para on top of that but seriously I wouldn't fight Klefki with something not immune to or benefits from para (think any Ground/Electric, Conkeldurr). Even then, eventually you hit through the hax. There are also two excellent strategies that demolish TWave Swagplay Klefki: switching and Taunt.

I can understand a move to B because of Spikes + confusion shenanigans, but not higher, and not because of the unreliable TWave Swagplay set.

Ground types do put dent's in its plan, I'll give you that, but just like you can switch he can switch too. And it makes a dangerous core with Lando and Heatran, which means both Fire and Ground immunity. Also taunt, aside from Sableye/Thunderus, can't out speed Prankster Twave/Swag, so at best, you get paralyzed, and he gets taunted and can switch into a counter to your now crippled pokemon. Even IF you do happen to get past the hax, you still have to face Klefki's bulk, which while not amazing, isn't a pushover either.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 284-336 (89.3 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
Obviously you wouldn't keep klefki in and switch to something that can handle Exca, namely Lando, who can OHKO Exca with Earth power or SuperPower/Focus Blast.

So, the best case scenario, you hit the opponents klefki, not being able to take it out unless its fire or ground, and that's if they don't switch, which they won't unless your Ground type or Fire. The worst case scenario, they T-wave you, you get para, they swag you, you get para/confused, they use foul play and kill you in one hit. To be able to take Klefi out you either have a very powerful physical attacker, or a very powerful special attacker, and the former gets OHKO'd always with Swagplay, and the latter would take tremendous damage or just dead from a confusion hit. Klefki's B+ AT LEAST.