Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

Status
Not open for further replies.
Haruno said:
Since S rank mons are defined as having no opportunity cost, by definition megas and arceus are in eligible since arceus has the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another arceus form while megas have the high opportunity cost of being unable to run another mega.
Click to expand...

Concerning Arceus, you're saying that because something is so flexible, we shouldn't make it an S-Rank since there's supposedly some opportunity cost in not being able to use a different set with the same Pokemon. I'd disagree. We might treat the sets as separate Pokemon simply because of how diverse they may be, but that doesn't mean they should be treated as separate Pokemon when considering opportunity cost.



Mewtwo on the other hand, I think should be split up just for the sake of measuring viability for team building (which seems to be the focus of this thread). I realize that as a general rule the Megas should be considered as the Pokemon themselves, but Mewtwo's two Mega Evolutions are substantially different from on another, just as the Arceus Formes are (if not more).

I'm also going to argue against using strict criteria against placing Pokemon in the upper parts, simply because taking a few that might be called S rank (such as Arceus-Normal) down to A+ would not really be appropriate given how easily they may be placed on a team, and how much of a threat they may pose to the opponent. Because, while Arceus-Normal doesn't offer much defensively, it's a massive threat that fits on most teams. At the same time, Pokemon such as Groudon offer utility, may be placed on a lot of teams and have great capabilities offensively and defensively, but lose to the majority of major and common threats. Offering Stealth Rock, Roar, Thunder Wave and more to stop physical sweepers isn't that beneficial when the majority of the top 10 is using special attacks, or kicking your ass with Sun-boosted moves.

-
Anyways,

Arceus-Normal's for S. Using an Arceus isn't really an opportunity cost, as I previously explained (look at how much Extremekiller's used over the other Arceus formes as well, before you argue about "needing" another Arceus forme). In the case of Extremekiller, it has so much sweeping potential. While it's true that it may be stopped, minimal support in the form of a teammate to defeat the few defensive threats that might threaten Arceus almost always leads to a clean sweep.

I'm suggesting that we keep Xerneas in the A+ Section. While it's a massively strong threat that may be tossed on to any team, it has a major flaw in only being able to set up properly once, and the other sets it has aren't nearly as threatening or by any means flexible. At the same time though I feel conflicted just because of how strong Xerneas is, hard counters that are specific to it are in high use. In other words, it was so good that it became harder to just sweep a team out with. 4 Moves+ LO is somewhat appealing in that it doesn't just become useless if you mess up your set-up, but it still needs Aegislash and the other same counters out of the way and it's much easier to stop. I don't really think Aromatherapy's that useful in this meta either, so there's that too. Scarf's pretty cool though.

Ho-oh in A- Rank. It's insanely good, but it really relies on Defog which is not entirely reliable, and there's a large cost in the support that Ho-oh needs (being that you lose your hazards/other support too). I'm avoiding placing it into the B rank only because Ho-oh does have some features that somewhat compensate for its issues (Regenerator and Sacred Fire's Burn chance). Ho-oh can fit on a large variety of teams and currently a huge threat in the metagame, but I don't think it should really be A+ or that.

I love Arceus-Rock, but it really deserves a B+. It counters Ho-oh, but it doesn't really have anything astounding going for it outside of that. It's trounced on by Kyogre, Blaziken, Mewtwo, and others, and it isn't a handy resist to common moves in the game. As a minor plus, it has coverage over Lugia, but Arceus will usually find itself being Toxic stalled.

Groudon's a B+. Nowadays, it just can't keep up with handling the biggest threats in the metagame. Kyogre, Xerneas, Yveltal, Ho-oh, Mewtwo, and Darkrai beat it one-on-one. It's an excellent sweeper, but it requires the right kind of support to function well.

Rayquaza's not really useful as it was before. SD loses to fast Xerneas, and DD only KOs if it runs Adamant AND V-Create. Also, Rayquaza relies on Outrage to hit like a truck. Unfortunately, that becomes significantly more difficult to use when Fairies now exist. Mixquaza has lost its worth with Mega Mewtwos and Yveltal in the mix. SDQuaza is pretty much outclassed now by Extremekiller. That said, if it can set up and has a good amount of support, DD Quaza can really threaten a team. B+

Deoxys-S really shouldn't be higher than a C+ now. HO or not, Defog is common now and pretty much kills your hazards. Going down 5-6 isn't really worth it if you lose any gain you had in that one turn. At best, you could be a turn ahead to sweep with for the purposes of Defog, but without your hazards, HO tends to have a harder time fully delivering on those KOs. On HO it works, but you would have to keep up the pressure constantly.
 
Last edited:
Keeping it short and simple:

Nominating Yveltal for A or possibly even A+.

"Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility."

- 126,95,98 defences give it pretty solid natural bulk which becomes even better when invested.
- Great typing, strong STAB and buff to Dark type moves makes it a solid offensive mon. Dark/Flying is a very solid typing in Ubers and provides unresisted coverage if i'm not wrong.
- Dark Aura is a solid ability and a major buff to Yveltal's dark STAB.
- Checks a couple of major threats/walls in the metagame such as Mewtwo, some Arceus offensively and defensive mons such as Lugia and Giratina. (debatable topic)
- Amazing movepool with access to toxic, taunt (major offensive and defensive implications), foul play (lets it beat ho-oh, sd arceus with correct EV's), oblivion wing (recovery) , roost (recovery), sucker punch (strong priority), U-turn (switch initiative).
- Yveltal's overall stats and movepool allow it to run a couple of options ranging from a utility mon to an offensive set to a defensive set, its speed and power allows you to run different items such as scarf, life orb, dread plate, specs, assault vest, leftovers... so you never know right off that bat what sort of Yveltal you may be facing.
- Not much support required to work. (defog/rapid spin is optional but not necessary)
- Base 99 speed, though not the greatest allows it to outspeed majority of the slower ubers metagame.
 
Last edited:
Now I wanted to talk about this guy, who just so happens to be my avatar (my old avatar for people who've seen this post after I've changed my avatar):
646-w.png

646-w.png
Kyurem-W For B+/A-/A Rank
First lets see the criteria needed to be matched for A rank
"Reserved for Pokemon with impressive offensive or defensive capability. These Pokemon are typically the first to be considered to fulfill certain roles and have very little opportunity cost. They require little support to function and may have significant utility."

"Impressive offensive or defensive capability" This motherfucker has 170 base special attack, 3rd highest out of all 718 POKEMON! I think there's no doubt it certainly has amazing power. Kyurem-W's role is quite literally an ice/dragon (I don't mean together I mean both an ice stall/wallbreaker and a dragon stall/wallbreaker) powerhouse stall/wall breaker that serves as an offensive utility check to many of the pokemon in the ubers metagame. For both typings, I would say this is the first pokemon I'd consider for this role because lol strong af and has the perfect bulk and a nice speed tier for the job. There is no support that kyurem needs, sure it appreciates SR off the field, but (ho-oh is amazing not bashing it, just making a comparison to someone who needs SR to be removed) it's not something like
250.png
[ho-oh] which NEEDs it off the field for it to function.
The amount of utility Kyurem W brings to the table is immense, the ubers meta is perfect for it (before the draco nerf it would always OHKO stuff like 252 HP specs ogre with specs modest draco with rocks up 80% of the time!) it's able to check a bunch of threats, yveltal (I said check, not counter, lmao yveltal can get off a good focus blast and this thing will take a shitload), kygore, zekrom, reshiram, rayquaza, etc.

Kyurem-W's choice sets are amazing as ever being able to revenge kill multitudes of threats (scarf) or destroy many defensive pokemon (specs), not only that but it's burning red choiceless (LO) set works amazingly with it's good bulk, good speed tier (ubers wise) and amazing power. Here are some calcs to throw around

646-w.png
Choice Specs
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 319-376 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre: 319-376 (78.9 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 277-327 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 192-226 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Genesect: 248-292 (87.6 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
etc.

Overall I would like to see this threat get the recognition it needs, will edit with more calcs later
 
boo836 said:
Concerning Arceus, you're saying that because something is so flexible, we shouldn't make it an S-Rank since there's supposedly some opportunity cost in not being able to use a different set with the same Pokemon. I'd disagree. We might treat the sets as separate Pokemon simply because of how diverse they may be, but that doesn't mean they should be treated as separate Pokemon when considering opportunity cost.



Mewtwo on the other hand, I think should be split up just for the sake of measuring viability for team building (which seems to be the focus of this thread). I realize that as a general rule the Megas should be considered as the Pokemon themselves, but Mewtwo's two Mega Evolutions are substantially different from on another, just as the Arceus Formes are (if not more).

I'm also going to argue against using strict criteria against placing Pokemon in the upper parts, simply because taking a few that might be called S rank (such as Arceus-Normal) down to A+ would not really be appropriate given how easily they may be placed on a team, and how much of a threat they may pose to the opponent. Because, while Arceus-Normal doesn't offer much defensively, it's a massive threat that fits on most teams. At the same time, Pokemon such as Groudon offer utility, may be placed on a lot of teams and have great capabilities offensively and defensively, but lose to the majority of major and common threats. Offering Stealth Rock, Roar, Thunder Wave and more to stop physical sweepers isn't that beneficial when the majority of the top 10 is using special attacks, or kicking your ass with Sun-boosted moves.

-
Anyways,

Arceus-Normal's for S. Using an Arceus isn't really an opportunity cost, as I previously explained (look at how much Extremekiller's used over the other Arceus formes as well, before you argue about "needing" another Arceus forme). In the case of Extremekiller, it has so much sweeping potential. While it's true that it may be stopped, minimal support in the form of a teammate to defeat the few defensive threats that might threaten Arceus almost always leads to a clean sweep.

I'm suggesting that we keep Xerneas in the A+ Section. While it's a massively strong threat that may be tossed on to any team, it has a major flaw in only being able to set up properly once, and the other sets it has aren't nearly as threatening or by any means flexible. At the same time though I feel conflicted just because of how strong Xerneas is, hard counters that are specific to it are in high use. In other words, it was so good that it became harder to just sweep a team out with. 4 Moves+ LO is somewhat appealing in that it doesn't just become useless if you mess up your set-up, but it still needs Aegislash and the other same counters out of the way and it's much easier to stop. I don't really think Aromatherapy's that useful in this meta either, so there's that too. Scarf's pretty cool though.

Ho-oh in A- Rank. It's insanely good, but it really relies on Defog which is not entirely reliable, and there's a large cost in the support that Ho-oh needs (being that you lose your hazards/other support too). I'm avoiding placing it into the B rank only because Ho-oh does have some features that somewhat compensate for its issues (Regenerator and Sacred Fire's Burn chance). Ho-oh can fit on a large variety of teams and currently a huge threat in the metagame, but I don't think it should really be A+ or that.

I love Arceus-Rock, but it really deserves a B+. It counters Ho-oh, but it doesn't really have anything astounding going for it outside of that. It's trounced on by Kyogre, Blaziken, Mewtwo, and others, and it isn't a handy resist to common moves in the game. As a minor plus, it has coverage over Lugia, but Arceus will usually find itself being Toxic stalled.

Groudon's a B+. Nowadays, it just can't keep up with handling the biggest threats in the metagame. Kyogre, Xerneas, Yveltal, Ho-oh, Mewtwo, and Darkrai beat it one-on-one. It's an excellent sweeper, but it requires the right kind of support to function well.

Rayquaza's not really useful as it was before. SD loses to fast Xerneas, and DD only KOs if it runs Adamant AND V-Create. Also, Rayquaza relies on Outrage to hit like a truck. Unfortunately, that becomes significantly more difficult to use when Fairies now exist. Mixquaza has lost its worth with Mega Mewtwos and Yveltal in the mix. SDQuaza is pretty much outclassed now by Extremekiller. That said, if it can set up and has a good amount of support, DD Quaza can really threaten a team. B+

Deoxys-S really shouldn't be higher than a C+ now. HO or not, Defog is common now and pretty much kills your hazards. Going down 5-6 isn't really worth it if you lose any gain you had in that one turn. At best, you could be a turn ahead to sweep with for the purposes of Defog, but without your hazards, HO tends to have a harder time fully delivering on those KOs. On HO it works, but you would have to keep up the pressure constantly.
Click to expand...
Opportunity cost may be the weakest argument against the higher placement of a Pokemon, but it is nonetheless relevant. Usage stats are not really a valid argument in this sense; the ladder is notorious for its abundance of rather poor players, and what (mostly) poor players choose to use does not reflect what is optimal to use. If usage stats were the basis for our argument Xerneas would be hands down the best Pokemon ever. When you use Extremekiller Arceus, it becomes far more difficult to find good checks for Ho-Oh and Yveltal (which have very few solid checks), not to mention losing the general defensive capability and support they offer (no other Defog users are nearly as good at it, and without Defog you lose out on Ho-Oh and Lugia, while other Pokemon also enjoy the support). Of course, using a combination of Pokemon, you can essentially fill the roles that Arceus-Rock or Arceus-Fairy perform, but there are so few viable options both for solid Ho-Oh/Yveltal checks or for Defog users that doing so significantly limits teambuilding. You could also forgo Defog, but this also limits teambuilding.

By no means am I diminishing what Extremekiller Arceus can do. It is incredible at its role, and certainly a major threat to most teams. However, the above demonstrates how the inability to use another Arceus forme limits teambuilding, and therefore cannot simply be fit onto any team. As Melee Mewtwo defined the purpose of the rankings being a conception of how easily a Pokemon fits on every team, Extremekiller Arceus would not be S-rank by that definition, as it limits teambuilding.

I won't comment on Xerneas in detail, but how do you not see Aromatherapy as incredibly helpful in the current metagame? Every form of status but sleep is all over the place, and while some Pokemon are immune to (or mostly unhampered by) one or two of them, a lot of Pokemon hate being inflicted with some or all forms of status. Whether or not Xerneas is a better cleric than other Pokemon such as Chansey or Sylveon is debatable, but all teams can appreciate a cleric (even if not all teams can fit one).

I also don't see Ho-Oh fitting anywhere below A+, really. Not factoring in SR, it fits S rank descriptions far better than anything else. All of its sets are capable both defensively AND offensively at once, in varying degrees (very offensive sets are decent defensively and incredibly potent offensively, while defensive sets are decent offensively and very potent defensively), which almost no other Pokemon can claim. There is essentially no opportunity cost in using Ho-Oh, it quite comfortably fits on the vast majority of teams. Its only limitation is the enormous SR weakness, which mandates Defog support for it to maintain its incredible potential. This thing was ranked A in the last generation, where removing SR was so difficult that using Espeon or Xatu in hopes of preventing it was actually viable. Now Defog can usually succeed in removing one of Ho-Oh's only limitations. Yes, it does have the disadvantage of removing your own hazards, but they can often be replaced, and your entire team enjoys not switching into entry hazards - not just Ho-Oh. This thing can OHKO or 2HKO almost the entire metagame with a moveslot to spare (and still OHKOs or 2HKOs a lot of the metagame without running Earthquake), and has the bulk, typing and longevity to be perfectly fine with failing to OHKO (unlike Pokemon like Mewtwo). Its offensive sets have exactly one viable, solid check in Arceus-Rock, which is 2HKO'd by a Life Orb/Choice Band Earthquake. This thing is just so devastating and versatile that even despite its need for some support, it easily deserves an A+ rank. If SR were removed from Ubers, it would define teambuilding more than any other Pokemon in the current metagame; people already use Rock-type moves on Pokemon which have literally no other reason to run one to help check Ho-Oh.

I agree with pretty much all your other rankings.
 
Totally agreeing with what Blue J said, h's really clearly described why Ho-oh deserves A+ or possibly S rank, and the limitations of arceus-normal. I would also mention how regenerator partially mitigates the stealth rock issue - indeed, for stall, even if you can keep stealth rock up, it's still incredibly hard to take down - its typing can allow it the occasional free turn to roost, when it comes in on something it can easily OHKO. With regenerator it becomes very difficult to defeat using rocks, and, particularly for roost variants, it is almost impossible to beat with mere hazard damage and phazing, even if you avoid the issue of keeping stealth rocks up on the field.
 
My thoughts:

S

Arceus-Normal - I'm with Hack and Kebabe on this one, not much more to add.

Ho-Oh - I admit I might be biased here since Ho-Oh is my favorite Pokemon, but I think it really does deserve S-Rank. It checks/counters like half of the metagame, can fulfill both offensive and defensive roles very well no matter what set it's running, and is dominant to the point where every team is running either Arceus-Rock or Stone Edge on random jank just to make beating it easier. The only support it really needs is Defog, but Ho-Oh itself is so incredibly good and Defog is such a generally useful support move (kind of like Stealth Rock to where basically everything benefits from it) to where it doesn't terribly impact how dominating Ho-Oh is right now. Also bear in mind that Ho-Oh's presence can discourage enemy teams from using Defog since it could mean removing their own rocks and thus unleashing the beast, and that in itself is pretty nice support.

A+

Kyogre - Loss of permarain = no more S-Rank but it's still obscenely good to the point where giving it anything lower would be a crime. Still something every team must have a way to beat.

Mega Gengar - Best anti-stall Pokemon in the game and can check almost anything slower than it, especially Fairies. Provides amazing support through its trapping abilities. However it is frail and needs a turn to Mega Evolve which can be sorta hard to get due to its frailty. It also is sorta weak compared to other Ubers threats so its not too much of a good sweeper.

Mega Kangaskhan - Big Momma is strong as balls and revenge kills like a champ due to her bulk and amazing priority options. Incredible menace to basically every team. Not S-Rank because it's really vulnerable to burns and lacks resistances for switching in easily.

Yveltal - Most versatile Pokemon in the game, kind of like Ho-Oh where it can fulfill both offensive and defensive roles with multiple sets. Defensive sets check a huge part of the meta and still pack terrifying power with Dark Aura Foul Play whereas offensive sets can crap on stall and offensive build with Taunt/Sucker Punch and still have great sustain with Oblivion Wing. Absolutely nothing is a good switch into it aside from Fairies. However packing a check to Xerneas (and Arceus-Fairy by extension) is more or less standard fare for teambuilding in 6th gen so Yveltal basically has built in support for handling those guys on most teams. That being said, both Xerneas and Arceus-Fairy are still really dangerous things to be giving switches to and that's the only thing that would keep Yveltal out of S-Rank imo, though it easily fits there.

Mewtwo - Extremely unpredictable and sweeps very easily/makes an excellent stallbreaker with its high speed and Taunt. Both Mega formes are excellent and have almost totally different sets of checks, and normal Mewtwo is still just as good as ever and can still run a decent stalling set. It doesn't hurt that checks such as Genesect and Giratina-O have lost a lot of value in this metagame.

A

Xerneas - Geomancy Xerneas is a very potent sweeper that has had a very dramatic effect on teambuilding, and it runs other sets extremely well such as Scarf/EBelt/Cleric/etc. Fairy-typing is also a major plus for it. However it's not too good at pressuring its own checks and needs more team support than the other S/A+ Pokemon.

Blaziken - Super potent sweeper that has no real defensive checks save physically bulky Arceus/Xerneas and Giratina-A. Also a great revenge killer and it can even Baton Pass its boosts. Frailty is a major downer though.

Zekrom - Excellent revenge killer and cleaner, paralysis immunity and increased usefulness of Electric attacks makes him a great Scarfer/TW sweeper, and is one of the best wallbreakers around. STAB Bolt Strikes pressure Fairies hard. Low Speed and immunities to its STABs suck, but with good prediction it can still be a huge force.

Groudon - Didn't change much this gen, still is a great supporter, check to most physical Pokemon (which is still needed despite Ubers being mostly special), and a very powerful sweeper with Rock Polish and/or SD. Has trouble with special attackers but it always had that issue and it does benefit a lot from decreased Giratina(-O) usage. Drought nerf is minor as most Chlorophyllers suck in Ubers anyway and it can still be useful against Kyogre.

Arceus-Water - Best support Arceus atm, checks Ho-Oh and choiced Kyogre well in one Pokemon which nothing else can do and its weaknesses aren't hard to cover. It can also halt a +2 Blaziken with a physically defensive build. Can also run a mean mono CM set that is great in this status infested metagame.

Arceus-Fairy - Other best support Arceus, typing is amazing defensively and its one of the few checks to Yveltal. Can also run a decent CM set. Loses points for being Mega Gengar/Ho-Oh bait.

Arceus-Electric - Best CM Arceus form since it goes through Ho-Oh/Kyogre/Yveltal/Lugia and is immune to paralysis. Electric/Flying resists are much more helpful in Gen 6 and only having one weakness aids in setting up tremendously. Very difficult to beat without Blissey.

Palkia - Best Kyogre check in the game and still a massive offensive threat. Fairies and permaweather nerf hurt it but it's still extremely threatening and it appreciates Lati@s not being around.

A-

Arceus-Rock - Counters Ho-Oh, great at spreading burns, can check slower EKillers and Yveltal decently. Has a lot of annoying weaknesses though.

Dialga - Not as good as it used to be. Still the best SR setter in the game and a good supporter. Can still run effective choiced sets since it pressures Fairies well with STAB Flash Cannon. Scarf can check weakened EKiller which is great.

Deoxys-A - Good SR setter and incredibly powerful offensively. Can demolish most would-be checks with buffed Knock Off and that Psycho Boost still hurts like a nuke. Also gets ESpeed which is an excellent move in this metagame.

Lugia - Much better with Defog around and walls an incredible amount of Pokemon. Still hates status/Steel-types and Yveltal is not kind to it.

Scizor - Compresses a lot a team roles into one Pokemon - It can Defog, it can check Xerneas, with its Mega forme it can check EKiller, and its not a bad Toxic spreader/SD cleaner. Mega forme is pretty bulky and a good check to a lot of common stuff.

Darkrai - Dark Void is still awesome, very fast and disruptive sweeper that benefits heavily from Dark-type buff. Can eliminate most checks with the right coverage move and Dark Void, but it can't cover all of its checks at once. It's also frail.

B+

Aegislash - Great Toxic spreader and a solid Xerneas/Mewtwo/choiced Dragon check. However its bait for a lot of dangerous things (Groudon/Ogre/Ho-Oh/Yveltal) and isn't terribly versatile.

Bronzong - Kind of like Aegislash, no Fighting immunity is meh but it gets SR and Levitate is really useful for not making it bait for Ground-types. It also beats Aegislash 1 vs 1 which is something I guess. Also, with HP Ice its a perfect Gliscor counter which is awesome as Gliscor is literally Hitler.

Giratina-O - Solid Defogger and does decent damage with buff to Ghost attacks. Still a decent check to EKiller/Blaziken without Knock Off. Lost its spinblocking niche and hates presence of Fairies/Yveltal.

Heatran - Solid switch into EQ-less Ho-Oh/Arceus-Fairy/certain types of Xerneas/most Steels and appreciates nerf to Drizzle a lot. Losing Ghost/Dark resists sucked but its still a decent supporter/stallbreaker.

Rayquaza - Lost its niche in checking weather sweepers and Fairies are a major roadblock for it. SD/CB is still good with strong ESpeed/V-create for and DD can still work with Mega Gengar support since many of its faster checks are considerably worse in XY.

Giratina - Extremely bulky and good check to most physical Pokemon such as EKiller, MKhan, and Blaziken. Can also check Specs Ogre with a specially defensive spread and can switch out of Mega Gengar which is very useful. Can Defog although its not as good as it as Gira-O or Arceus. Rest is also much better for recovery this generation. Lost spinblocking niche and hates Dragon Tail nerf, Fairies, and Yveltal.

B

Hippowdon - Good supporting Ground-type and check to a lot of physical Pokemon. Has recovery over Groudon and Sand Stream is neat, but it also suffers from coverage issues and has less overall bulk.

Landorus-T - Good physical pivot with U-turn and sets SR well. Troll speed tier is great for getting around the base 90 crowd. Not as good as Groudon/Hippowdon since it can't beat Extremekiller, but it takes on enemy Groudon/Blaziken a lot better and Intimidate is certainly useful.

Kyurem-W - Still hits like a train and loves Defog being a thing. Hates presence of Fairies though and defensive typing is still terrible.

Mega Lucario - Adaptability CC hurts and it can check Xerneas in a pinch. Struggles against most physical walls and faces much heavier competition than the other Megas for that team slot.

Arceus-Grass - Solid check to Groudon/Kyogre/Zekrom and a decent Defogger. Drizzle nerf hurt it a lot and its Ho-Oh/Yveltal bait.

Arceus-Ground - Good SD Sweeper/supporter and the best Zekrom check there is. Support set has major 4MSS and other Arceus formes give it a lot of competition.

Gliscor - Virtually immune to status (amazing in this meta) and is a good Zekrom check/physical mon not named EKiller check/stall breaker. Taunt is very useful as always, and SR/Knock Off are also good support options. Can make use of Defog, but that requires it to give up Poison Heal which is very bad. Weak outside of Toxic stalling and its special bulk is poor.

B-

Amoonguss - With Assault Vest it checks Kyogre/Psyshock-less Xern/Palkia well and gets Regenerator for passive healing. Foul Play and Clear Smog help keep it from being setup fodder. Doesn't do much aside from its role though.

Deoxys-S - Still a good lead and helpful for offensive teams, though Defog really devalues its role.

Ferrothorn - Still a decent Kyogre check/team supporter with Seed, SR, and Toxic/TWave, but Defog, loss of perma rain, loss of Ghost/Dark resists, and inability to check Xerneas well really really sucks for it.

Garchomp - Still a decent sweeper with SubSalac + good STAB combo + troll speed. Lost perma sand and has many of the problems it had last gen + Fairies.

Thundurus-I - Prankster Taunt/TWave makes it a great lead/supporter and STAB Electric is better than it used to be. Suffers from fraility and mostly outclassed by Darkrai as a pure sweeper.

C+

Jirachi - See Sweep's post.

Chansey - Still a good wall and team supporter. However, it has little offensive capability and is MASSIVE bait for Mega Gengar.


C

Mega Charizard X - Very threatening DD sweeper in sun and has a very powerful STAB combo. Setting up is tricky and its mostly outclassed by Blaziken, although it has an easier time busting through defensive Ho-Oh and Giratina-A. Somewhat reliant on sun to do its job.

Blissey - Same as it usually is. I like it better than Chansey since it can run Shed Shell for MGar, but that's more personal preference than actual usefulness I guess since Chansey is for all intents and purposes better.

Reshiram - Very powerful and appreciates Defog/Drizzle nerf. Still has massive competition with Ho-Oh and Kyurem-W.

C-

Wobbuffet - yep

Victini - Good Trick Room sweeper and decent Mewtwo check. Reliant on sun and has a lot of weaknesses.

D

Carbink - Sorta okay Ho-Oh/Yveltal check, but has poor offensive capabilities and is terrible most of the time. It is, however, extremely cute.

Manaphy - Without permaweather it lost whatever niche it had, although TG + 3 Attacks @ Wacan is still kind of good...

E

Shedinja - No

Base forme Charizard - Pls no

There was some stuff I didn't rank like Ttar/Exca/Mega Aggron/Shaymin-S/other Arceus types but I just had no idea where to put them lol.
 
Last edited:
D

Carbink - Sorta okay Ho-Oh/Yveltal check, but has poor offensive capabilities and is terrible most of the time. It is, however, extremely cute.

Manaphy - Without permaweather it lost whatever niche it had, although TG + 3 Attacks @ Wacan is still kind of good...
Click to expand...
What is this blasphemy
Carbink is at least B tier

Anyway S-tier seems to be the "hot topic" so I'll give my two cents on that.
The titans of the game. They bear massive offensive and defensive capabilities. Pokemon in this tier are extremely diverse, capable of fulfilling multiple roles on both defensive and offensive ends. There is virtually zero opportunity cost in using these Pokemon. They require no support from the team and have immense utility to offer.
Click to expand...

Kyogre- I think people have been too hung-up on the fact that Drizzle is nerfed rather than the fact that Kyogre is an amazing pokemon. It obviously has an amazing offensive niche and Drizzle support is still a very good utility to have, giving Thunder it's 100% acc. and nerfing many Fire attacks. It also has a great defensive niche based on it's amazing 140 base Special defense, which allows it to run a very viable RestTalk set. And while Calm Mind isn't that great on it anymore, it can also run Thunder Wave pretty well. It's notable to mention that there are fewer Kyogre checks this generation than the last, which means fitting it on the team is a lot easier. Scarf Kyogre is one of the best scarfers in the game and is very easy to fit on a team thanks to the fact that it's Water Spout is still as ridiculous as ever. The checks that it did gain this gen, like Palkia and Amoonguss, can all eventually be pressured into a KO. Kyogre is very self-sufficient and doesn't require much of any support from the team at all. I guess you could argue Defog for Water Spout, but it's no where near the level that Ho-Oh is at.

Yveltal- Don't forget about this guy! Thanks to his very unique combination of stats, typing, and ability Yveltal is a strong contender for S-tier. His typing gives him a great defensive niche with resists to Dark and Ghost which goes well with his high HP stat. Offensively, Yveltal has a very dangerous LO set that goes well with his ability, and is very hard to check. He also has other sets such as Stallbreaker, Scarf, and AV which let's Yveltal perform a myriad of roles on a team. Oblivion Wing is unique in that it can maintain offensive pressure while healing Yveltal, and Sucker Punch lands him with one of the strongest priority attacks in the game. Oblivion Wing also means that Yveltal is a very self-sufficient mon who doesn't require much of anything from teammates. You could again somewhat argue Defog but Oblivion Wing and Roost can help with this, not to mention it's not that hard to fit onto a team at all.

I'm not sure about Xerneas yet for S-tier but I think it's a good contender. The reason I dislike Ho-Oh in S-tier is because of it's total reliance on Defog, but besides that it's very good. Arceus-Normal I also dislike because of it's lack of niche on defensive teams and the fact that you're taking up an Arceus slot.
 
I don't think wobba is even as high as C-.. custap being unreleased is really painful for it. I mean, yes it's a xerneas counter, and it is useful vs almost any team, however, 1 for 1 is the absolute best it can achieve.

And I'm considering manaphy is probably deserving higher than D.. setting up on rockceus, and being above that base 90 speed tier (imo it's only bothered by palkia, scarfoge, and scarfzek in terms of stuff that can switch in as you set up and deal), and being able to massively boost that special attack ridiculously quickly.. I'm just feeling D is too low for it.
 
- Agreeing with everything boo836 said about Ho-oh, Arceus-Rock, and Groudon, there is simply no way Ho-oh is S rank if Arceus-Normal is being debated for S rank. Ho-oh's sets are all basically the same and checked by the same pokemon.
- Undecided on what I think is S rank. I have the top threats in the tier mentally ranked, but I don't understand why the criteria is so pedantic. It defeats the purpose of ranking these mons if the ranking system isn't relative to the current metagame. What I mean by that is if there are no mons that fit the "definition" of S-Rank, we should modify the definition.
- Stop reading now if you have under-developed comprehension skills
- Also, Manaphy, Yveltal is not close to being S rank lol

C+ rank:

Giratina-O - I'm being generous when I put this thing in C+. Giratina-O already had terrible 4 mss in Gen 5 (he wanted to run WoW/Sub/Magic Coat/Eq/Dtail/Sneak/Hp Fire/Thunder/Draco/Stone Edge), and now you have to add Defog and Shadow Ball and Resttalk into that mix. Good luck supporting whatever unoptimal moveset you end up choosing for him.

Mega Kanga - 4mss. Sucker/PuP/Return/EQ loses to offense since non-stab sucker is simply not enough damage to bring down pokemon that aren't Mewtwo and everything else is faster than you. Sucker/Fake Out/Return/EQ is good vs offense, but it will be literally useless vs bulky teams. Have fun against Willowisp Arceuses and Giratinas! Additionally, if you aren't running Crunch, then you're gonna get fucking boned by Mega Gengar since it can just never Mega evolve and switch rather freely, especially with defog.

D rank:

Amoongus - Loses to Psyshock and Sub Geo-Xerneas, bait for half the metagame to freely switch in on. In sum, it doesn't fulfill what should be it's strongest niche of checking SOME Geo-Xerneas sets. Sure, it's good against Kyogre and AV Palkia *the worst Palkia set in the game unless you are the teambuilding beast that is Edgar*, but that's not worth giving up all of your team's momentum. If you don't double switch out of Kyogres or Palkias you risk something like a Ho-Oh or steel coming in for free, and if you do double switch then you risk being outpredicted and losing the game... because one of your pokemon is a useless mushroom. (Sorry mm2).

Arceus-Grass - No rain to wall Palkia, Ho-oh buffed, Mega Blaze and Mega Gengar existing, if you are using Arceus-Grass you are doing it wrong. Hell, even Amoongus is better than Arceus-Grass this gen. Oh well Heatran Grassceus core, was fun while it lasted Furai.

Blissey/Chansey - If the blob has twave, force it into a position where it needs to use a recovery move and bring in Mega Gar, taunt, and laugh as the blob struggles to death. Otherwise, unless you have a very strong pursuit user you are playing with 4 mons vs Mega Gengar. It kills Blissey or Chansey for free then fucking suicides and kills another mon. You are forced to run another Xerneas counter since blobs lose to Psyshock and Sub Geo-Xerneas, and by the way, blobs lose to Specs Ogre so you need more checks for those. Requires way too much support and by the time you are done adding the support you wish you didn't build around this thing in the first place.

Carbink - If you are using this mon you are desperate and need to rebuild your team, since you lose to LO EQ Ho-Oh + SR anyways. Another pokemon that barely fulfills its so-called niche and is bait for a ton of other pokemon.

Heatran - Can't reliably check Xerneas because of Focus Blast, can't reliably check Ho-Oh because of defog making LO 3 atks stronger. So then what is its niche? If you are using this to check CM Arceus forms or stuff like Scizor then why aren't you using Ho-oh? Heatran can't even beat Mega-Aboma in fear of EQ. This mon turned to ass this gen.

Heliolisk - Assault Vest and Dry Skin seemed cool at first but it's bait for too many mons and Kyogre isn't good enough anymore to justify running this. Save your time and just use Mega Blaziken as your Kyogre check instead.
 
Last edited:
I highly disagree with donkey for grassceus and pink blobs.
Ok they are MGengar weak, so? First of all MGengar isn't in every team (I'm waiting for december stats), second if you see Gengar in team preview you know you have to deal with him before sending out something that will struggle to him. And remember that you still have a chanse to swith before it Mevolve.

Grassceus checks so many threat and cripple his counters on the predicted switch. I still think is one of the best support arceus.

Blobs are a pain in the ass for every offensive team providing great support via wish/aromatherapy. No special attacker can pass through them easily and in the meantime they become statused (toxic/t-wave).

You can't give those 3 less than B (B-) rank.
 
If you run blobs then you need to run a pursuit trapper that beats m-gengar, which is scizor, and that's a pokemon which again has its own bunch of flaws (and it isn't perfectly guaranteed to beat it anyway)..

If you run blobs, at the least, your team is very limited in terms of teambuilding. Stall isn't ended because of m-gengar, but it requires a different way of teambuilding.

I'm totally agreeing with his rankings of the blobs.

I can't really comment on grassceus, I'll let better players than me figure that one out.
 
boo836 Agreeing with pretty much everything but I want to note on Deoxys-S that it still very useful with its niche on HO. Its a bit like Espeon last gen, really bad outside of its niche but still required on one of the best archetypes in the meta. I guess C+/B- makes sense.

However I dont agree with Groudon in B, It have never checked special threats like Darkrai. And imo it have similar sweeping potential as those poke you mention while still giving very good support.

Donkey idk about Kangaskhan, as you said it has a big 4mss but its roles are very unique and useful. And I cant see how Gengar beats it. Sure it can switch in but its not doing anything back. And Kanga is probably best on teams that needs something vs offense and you can use something else for Giratina. But I have not used it that much so idk for sure (Mega Gengar on all teams)

Gira-O might have a niche in checking Blaziken with no boost for Knock off but yeah its pretty bad.

Otherwise Im agreeing with everything 100%
 
D Rank
Reserved for Pokemon with very little offensive or defensive capability. Barely viable, they are very rarely real considerations for specific roles. Reliant on almost the full team for support while still affected by some of their flaws. They may even suffer from massive amounts of opportunity cost to the point of being outright outclassed.


Chansey? Seriously?
 
Kebabe said:
boo836 Agreeing with pretty much everything but I want to note on Deoxys-S that it still very useful with its niche on HO. Its a bit like Espeon last gen, really bad outside of its niche but still required on one of the best archetypes in the meta. I guess C+/B- makes sense.

However I dont agree with Groudon in B, It have never checked special threats like Darkrai. And imo it have similar sweeping potential as those poke you mention while still giving very good support.

Donkey idk about Kangaskhan, as you said it has a big 4mss but its roles are very unique and useful. And I cant see how Gengar beats it. Sure it can switch in but its not doing anything back. And Kanga is probably best on teams that needs something vs offense and you can use something else for Giratina. But I have not used it that much so idk for sure (Mega Gengar on all teams)

Gira-O might have a niche in checking Blaziken with no boost for Knock off but yeah its pretty bad.

Otherwise Im agreeing with everything 100%
Click to expand...
+2 knock off does 80% to max hp
 
Donkey said:
+2 knock off does 80% to max hp
Click to expand...
Yeah I said it was pretty bad. Still most things get OHKO after SR and you probably have def investment on Gira-O

EDIT calc: +2 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 200 Def Giratina-O: 300-354 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Some other opinions of mine:

Ho-oh - A+ or A. Very metagame defining- but it also got buffed to the point that people actually prepare a lot for it, either by using a lot of random Rock-moves to help killing it or using Rockceus. Its exploitable weakness is and great need of Defog support keeps it from being S-rank.

Yveltal - A+ or A. Is very versatile, but has a slight weakness to Xerneas which is very common. I just never feel Yveltal is that dominant when I use it or when used against me so I can't really say why it should be S-rank.

Kyogre - A+. Has three good sets, scarf/specs/sdef, it doesn't support its team the way it used to so justifying S-rank here is incorrect. It's still a mon every team has to prepare for.

Gengar - A+. It's just a great utility mon, support moves are excellent and Shadow Tag let's you use these moves to full capacity despite your low defenses. It has really good immunities to offer to any team too, usually these immunities lets you switch in a lot more than you expect. S-rank is not far away imo but it needs to mega evolve to get its ability, so A+ is a good fit.

Kanga - Goes in A- for me. Burn prone in as support Arceus meta is pretty dull. It's very good vs offensive teams, but it will always have trouble switching in since its typing doesn't offer resistances to common attacking types.

Blaziken - A. What Fireburn said.

I'll post more later
 
- Also, Manaphy, Yveltal is not close to being S rank lol
Click to expand...
I can understand if you want to put it lower. Looking at the criteria it seemed like a good fit to me.
 
Last edited:
While knock off hurts, giratina should be A just cause it has defog. Cuz ho oh.

Should we perhaps just do S/A/B/C first without the + and -? So confusing
 
114 said:
While knock off hurts, giratina should be A just cause it has defog. Cuz ho oh.

Should we perhaps just do S/A/B/C first without the + and -? So confusing
Click to expand...
Uhhhh... no. Giratina's pretty garbage in general this generation due to its abundance of common weaknesses (Dragon, Fairy, Ice, Dark, Ghost) that compromise its bulk, it lost its niche as a spinblocker because of Defog, has really bad 4MSS, and is fairly weak and slow. Also, a lot more Pokemon than Giratina have Defog, notably Arceus.
 
I think gira's main niche this gen is vaguely walling kyogre whilst being impossible to trap by m-gengar..

Still, it's too weak to really hit anything.. it kinda just dies this gen.
 
Piexplode said:
I think gira's main niche this gen is vaguely walling kyogre whilst being impossible to trap by m-gengar..

Still, it's too weak to really hit anything.. it kinda just dies this gen.
Click to expand...
It is unable to do anything in the face of kyogre and being impossible to trap doesn't do much for it when it gives mega gar a free turn
 
Yeah I've been running gira on my stall and it's been disappointing.. really need something else that's better at walling kyogre that actually can do something to it..
 
Donkey said:
Mega Kanga - 4mss. Sucker/PuP/Return/EQ loses to offense since non-stab sucker is simply not enough damage to bring down pokemon that aren't Mewtwo and everything else is faster than you. Sucker/Fake Out/Return/EQ is good vs offense, but it will be literally useless vs bulky teams. Have fun against Willowisp Arceuses and Giratinas! Additionally, if you aren't running Crunch, then you're gonna get fucking boned by Mega Gengar since it can just never Mega evolve and switch rather freely, especially with defog.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of your points in your list but I very strongly disagree with putting Khan all the way down in C+. Khan's 4MSS isn't that severe IMO (I agree that PuP isn't the best in Ubers) since the main choice is between Crunch and EQ, and even if you forgo Crunch the Giratina formes are really easy to take advantage of this generation (and by putting Gira-O in C+ you basically just said yourself Giras are not so great in the XY metagame) and are not terribly prevalent. Return is still really strong, you do 40% to max/max+ Impish Groudon and >50% to support Arceus that aren't Rock or Ghost (both easy formes to take advantage of and Rock is weak to EQ) meaning they can't switch in well at all without being greatly pressured, so Fake Out Khan is definitely not useless vs bulky teams. It is burn prone but all physical attackers not named Ho-Oh or Blaziken are and it can still effectively pressure Wispers so its not that huge a problem. A+ might be too high but its incredible strength and utility vs both offensive and balanced teams make it at least A-.

Also, Mega Gengar vs Mega Khan is a 50/50 at worst since Gar dies to Sucker Punch and Khan can potentially stall DBond. If you keep Gengar not Mega'd just to keep switching in on EQ Khan then you're wasting your Gengar IMO since base Gar is honestly not very threatening.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top