I have been using some Chesnaught before, the experience was rather nice, if you team is good enough against Talonflame and possibly some psychics than it definitely worth a try(I assume every team should have some sort of fire/ice solution).
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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I have been using some Chesnaught before, the experience was rather nice, if you team is good enough against Talonflame and possibly some psychics than it definitely worth a try(I assume every team should have some sort of fire/ice solution).
Chesnaught is actually pretty neat. It's one of the few counters to Aegislash:
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 75-89 (19.7 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
What kind of awful player user doesn't run a boosting item on Cloyster? With LO or Icicle Plate that's a clean 2HKO so Aegislash isn't a counter.
Cloyster is also one of the very few physical sweepers that doesn't rely on contact moves, meaning Aegislsh can't screw it over with King's Shield.
With its massive physical bulk and Mach Punch users becoming less common it fears no form of priority besides Mega Lucario's Vacuum Wave. Speaking of priority, it has the strongest Ice Shard in the game after setting up, meaning common scarf users such as Latios aren't a reliable answer.
You also underestimate Cloyster's set up opportunities, which are way more numerous than they used to be in Gen 5 thanks to the Defog buff and the assistance of reliable dual screen users such as Klefki.
Sadly Cloyster has a bad reputation for being one of the many pokemon low ladder players use wrong (no, kids, the Focus Sash and Power Herb sets aren't good) which turns off many players. However it's still a great late-game sweeper and definitely deserves the A-rank.
Doesn't matter if it's a 2hko, shadow ball OHKOs. I've never had a problem with cloyster and never will. It requires a considerable amount of support, meaning it's not A-rank. If you're going to use dual screen and defog support, you're better off ddancing with dragonite or something. Its power isn't actually that great -- banded scizor has a higher attack stat than +2 cloyster. Speaking of which, scizor's banded bullet punch does 60-70% after the defense drop, so it's pretty easy to revenge kill. Its coverage is walled by pretty much every steel, and bulky waters also do amazing. Oh, and +2 cloyster can't even OHKO lucario.
Lastly, with physically defensive variants of rotom-W everywhere, cloyster can't do much. It doesn't even OHKO 252/0 Rotom, doing 75-90%. Volt switch is an easy OHKO.
I'm not saying cloyster isn't a good late game sweeper, I'm just saying it's outclassed, and doesn't deserve A-rank. There's a reason it's not used much 1850+.
I agree chesnaught should get a rating, but A- is definitely too high. B might make sense, but you have to take in that it has a lot of flaws. Biggest is probably its 6 weaknesses, one of them being x4 weakness to flying. Also, as a defensive pokemon, most would choose ferrothorn first (I know they do different things, but ferrothorn is the more used of the 2 for a reason). It is not an aegislash counter as several Aegislashes are special now, and the physical ones would just boost. Just throwing some food for thought out there.
Well, it is true that the majority of Aegislash are specially biased now, but usually the only special move they carry is Shadow Ball, which Chesnaught happens to be immune to thanks to Bulletproof. If Aegislash happens to be carrying Flash Cannon or HP Ice, then you have a problem.
And...what exactly can Chesnaught do back to Aegislash? It can run Earthquake, but between Spikes, Leech Seed, Hammer Arm, Roar, Synthesis, and Stone Edge, it really has no room for Earthquake. Without Roar you have to sit in front of it helplessly as it either smacks you around with Iron Head or sets up Swords Dance. Even with Roar all you do is temporarily remove it.
Fortunately for Chesnaught, the bold is untrue. I won one of my OU battles partially in thanks to my Chesnaught that single-handedly defeated a Swords Dance Aegislash. I could outspeed it before it could attack and use Substitute and Spiky Shield in alternation. The reason is that I could restore ¼ HP every two turns (1/16 from leftovers and 1/16 from leech seed=1/8, x2 due to spiky shield protection giving me a free turn =¼ HP, which is how much you need for a substitute :]). Also, my set is a page back and I only ran one attacking move for the record (Seed Bomb or Earthquake).
So...you end up being even more bait? Chesnaught runs Hammer Arm because it can actually do relevant damage to a lot of threats not covered by Seed Bomb or Earthquake. Spiky Shield is an option but you give up Spikes in return, which means you lose a lot of your utility. Or you can give up Leech Seed or Synthesis, also not really options. Spiky Shield is also really, really predictable, just like Protect. Ferrothorn is a lot better at Leech Seed+Protect shenanigans anyways. Hammer Arm at least hits Excadrill.
Yeah, I used it, and I was having tons of problems with Crobat, Talonflame, and Aegislash. Chesnaught is a decent physical tank and Spiking pivot, and its main draw is hitting harder than Ferrothorn, but I think its problems are really too much for it to be A- even. B/B- Rank would be fine, though I would not object to C.
I object to both A and C, A is far too high and C is far too low. B tier allows being set up bait for sweepers, which Chesnaught can easily be depending on which build you run, but A doesn't, so A is too high. But at the same time Chesnaught performs his niche (spike layer, tank) very well and only requires minimal help from other pokemon to do so while his typing, defenses and ability make it easy to partner him up with other pokemon like Gyarados, Heatran, Slowbro, Jellicent, Tyranitar, etc. He is definitively a cut above the likes of Diggersby and Gourgeist-Small, and performs very-well in game as opposed to just on paper like those mons. He's also not outclassed by any one particular mon, some might make better tanks, scouts or hazard layers individually, but none can do all 3 as well as Chesnaught can.
I was going to respond to SansNickel, but then I realized he was talking about Jolly/Naive Cloyster instead of Adamant Cloyster. Honestly, I don't see the point in outrunning scarf genesect and the incredibly rare choice scarf terrakion if you suddenly become unable to kill things. You still have ice shard for scarf hydriegon and both of the landorus forms. Why run Jolly?
Because scarf genesect is everywhere and will rape you with thunderbolt or energy ball or flamethrower. Adamant cloyster doesn't kill anything anyway.
What you run is irrelevant, what is important here is that Chesnaught can be a good spikes layer if you want it to.
Anyway we should really get Jirachi rated - has anybody here actually used it in XY or should I go test it? I can't believe that it's not good given how downright amazing it was last gen.
The abundance of fire types (charizards, talonflame, entei, etc) and ground types (excadrill, landorus) and its lost neutrality to dark and ghost make it hard to run a utility/defensive set. Electric types being immune to thunderwave (ground types also) sucks too. The scarf set is probably its best bet right now, with iron head hitting fairies, ice punch for good general coverage, and fire punch as well. It can u-turn and run healing wish to bring back a sweeper (megas!!) back to full strength. I haven't really tried to sub CM set. It also used to really love the rain, taking away the fire weakness and throwing off 100% accurate thunders. In my opinion it really only has a couple of viable sets, but I guess technically still has a million sets and can be unpredictable. I think I'm going to give it an A- / B+.
Like i said a few posts up its probably still good, but faces more competition now from Excadrill and Aegislash, as well as fairy types who counter Dragons better. Plus electric types absorb t-wave, and no more perm rain. I would test it out bc I never see them. Like SansNickel said, id try choice scarf before any other set
And I don't run any tanks in my current team, that doesn't stop Mega-Venusaur from being a fantastic one. What you personally use doesn't determine viability ranking, it's how good a pokemon is at its job, and Chesnaught is good at its job.
Why would you run a choice Scarf on something as slow as Chesnaught (68 spe), the metagame is extremely offensive, way more than last gen, people scarfing the 100 tier, Mega Evolutions, Sticky Web, more priority, and way fast pokemons introduced, the metagame is extremely offensive that putting a -Spe nature, 0 IV, 0 Evs base 90 Spe in a trick room will work relatively well, as even Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Scizor, Aegislash, and Mawile are running a bit of speed to outspeed key pokemons. Choice Scarfing a base 68 spe is definitely not an option, especially when Chesnaught's main niche is tanking, Spiking, Absorbing (Leech Seed), and Spiky Shield as a superior Protect. Pain Split is a good option too, but Scarf? No, MAYBE CB, but you'd be missing out on Chesnaught's niche. Chesnaught has enough speed to outspeed key pokemons, such as Tyranitar, Aegislash, and Scizor, a scarf is preposterous.
If you require +2 to 2HKO and they OHKO you back, that's a counter. You're either setting up on the switch or attacking on the switch, neither scenario is going to turn up with Cloyster alive and Aegislash dead.
Let's not even talk about Aegislash though, Cloyster can't even OHKO Rotom-W at +2 and will eat a volt switch or WoW for its trouble.
I won't argue too hard regarding its placement because I've only seen terrible players use it but A seems far too high regardless.
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