While I do agree with some of your points, I suggest that we stop including the opportunity cost of Megas in arguments particularly in placements, the reason which is because smogon has no clear-cut definition on how we should handle this new mechanic, therefore we'll lack a common median and invalidate any argument made.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
- Status
While I do agree with some of your points, I suggest that we stop including the opportunity cost of Megas in arguments particularly in placements, the reason which is because smogon has no clear-cut definition on how we should handle this new mechanic, therefore we'll lack a common median and invalidate any argument made.
Then if anything this should be addressed now seeing as Mega Venusaur has been a rather huge standstill and such an opportunity cost clearly exists - even on some defensive teams.
The difference between Mega Venusaur and other Megas like Mega Pinsir and Mega Lucario is that Mega Venusaur is a defensive pokemon, and should only be used for that reason. Its tanking capabilities are unmatched as far as I'm concerned. I don't think anything else in XY OU walls as many pokemon as Mega Venusaur does, considering it tanks hits on both sides and has only two, comparatively uncommon weaknesses.
I also question if people saying that Mega Venusaur should be A+ or even A rank have actually used it sufficiently. I was sceptical about Mega Venusaur at first myself too; that said, I had never used it before. After experimenting with it on different teams and figuring out the right sets on the right team (Mega Venusaur is actually very flexible with its moveset) it quickly proved invaluable.
Especially on Stall, Mega Venusaur almost has to be used just because it walls so many pokes in a single teamslot, which is crucial in the current metagame. That said, Mega Venusaur fits in just as easily on Bulky Offense as a pivot/wall. Just my opinion from using it extensively.
I also disagree with the opportunity cost argument, Mega Venusaur is in the same tier as Mega Lucario which is arguably the most powerful Mega pokemon atm. I'll leave that debate for somewhere else as the point is, both are S rank. Top tier pokemon. Comparing them to each other is rather useless too, considering the nature of their abilities (sweeper <-> wall).
Lastly, I read somewhere that Sleep Powder isn't as relevant anymore due to the nerf. Sleep is the most powerful status in the game aside from Frozen, which isn't really abuseable. The presence of maybe five relevant Grass-types in OU doesn't take away from this undisputable fact (also, they have trouble beating Mega Venusaur). You can neutralize any threat on your opponents team temporarily with Sleep Powder, which is incredibly valuable.
I also question if people saying that Mega Venusaur should be A+ or even A rank have actually used it sufficiently. I was sceptical about Mega Venusaur at first myself too; that said, I had never used it before. After experimenting with it on different teams and figuring out the right sets on the right team (Mega Venusaur is actually very flexible with its moveset) it quickly proved invaluable.
Especially on Stall, Mega Venusaur almost has to be used just because it walls so many pokes in a single teamslot, which is crucial in the current metagame. That said, Mega Venusaur fits in just as easily on Bulky Offense as a pivot/wall. Just my opinion from using it extensively.
I also disagree with the opportunity cost argument, Mega Venusaur is in the same tier as Mega Lucario which is arguably the most powerful Mega pokemon atm. I'll leave that debate for somewhere else as the point is, both are S rank. Top tier pokemon. Comparing them to each other is rather useless too, considering the nature of their abilities (sweeper <-> wall).
Lastly, I read somewhere that Sleep Powder isn't as relevant anymore due to the nerf. Sleep is the most powerful status in the game aside from Frozen, which isn't really abuseable. The presence of maybe five relevant Grass-types in OU doesn't take away from this undisputable fact (also, they have trouble beating Mega Venusaur). You can neutralize any threat on your opponents team temporarily with Sleep Powder, which is incredibly valuable.
I told myself I wasn't going to join in the Mega Venusaur discussion, but...
I don't honestly think that the Mega Slot alone is warrant to throw M-Venusaur down a rank when it fits the definition of S-rank to a tee. It being one of the best Megas in the entire game, the slot isn't even slightly wasted on it. If we were talking about, say, Mega Manetric or Ampharos, whose strengths are simply not strong enough to warrant their use over the other megas, then I would agree with you, but we are talking about one of the best and most versatile Pokemon in the OU tier. Due to the excellent combo of its typing, ability, and great bulk, it can easily wall a giant amount of the meta on either side of the offensive spectrum while retaining excellent survivability thanks to recovery in Giga Drain, Synthesis, and Leech Seed, and possessing means to hit back surprisingly hard due to great 100/122 offenses and awesome offensive movepool. Power, bulk, and unpredictability help make Mega Venusaur a top-tier choice for all teams, and an easily justified choice over other Megas.
Last edited:
Being s-rank doesnt mean theyre suspect test worthy, last gen stuff like ttar and jirachi were s-rank, doesnt mean they should be suspected, s-rank just means it is amazing, which is what it is.
Although i have been arguing for s-rank, i havent been so sure, but the arguments for have been so much better than the arguments against, a-rank arguments being 'its weak to hazards, can get burned and cant check talonflame'. If you are arguing for a-rank use evidence, not 'omg talonflame kills it', so far i have not sen 1 decent argument suggesting it should be a-rank.
With crobat, it was great prebank, when it was one of the best defoggers(argubly better than mandibuzz), but now post bank, it is mached with the latwins and others.
Also talonflame isnt good for it.
Still crobat is an excellent stall breaker and revenge killer due to its outstanding speed, it deserves B- imo
I want to talk about a pokemon that hasnt talked about;
I nominate Azelf to B+
I have always liked azelf in ou and in this gen, i feel it is better
It has amazing move coverage alowing to break throug comon walls, such as ferrothorn, and has a strong STAB coming of a great 125 attack and special attack. Not only that but its nice 115 speed lets it outspeed the latwins, gengar, terrakion, keldeo and more. The scarf set easily outspeeds genesect and can ohko with fire blast.
The previous gens, it couldnt do much to dragon types, but now, it gets dazzling gleam as a tm so can revenge kill dragons or dent them on the switch in. It is also great at gaining momentum by uturning on ttar or heatran, its 2 biggest threats.
Alas, it does have terrible defenses, so it can not afford to switch into too many moves and has to be careful of the ever so comon knock off
Even so it does have decent support, including being one of the natural fastests dual screeners as well as having stealth rocks, trick, taunt and knock off or even a strong explosion as a suicide lead.
It is also very versitile, both of its attacks are 125 and can run a physical set, which gets the elemental punches. Overall Azelf is a great pokemon to have and one of the best scarfers imo.
1) Noiverns typing makes him more frail than Crobat.
-Aside from Lightning and Psychic Noivern shares all the same weaknesses as Crobat, but also has a 4x weakness to Ice a weakness to Dragon and a weakness to Fairy. I fail to see why Crobat is considered frail but Noivern's bulk isn't an issue. Furthermore Crobat's typing gives him three 4x resistances, including one to Fighting, which is still a very common attacking type. Crobat is far from a tank but he can take hits very well, and while I'll admit Noivern's water and fire resistances are cool, they don't make up for how much better Crobat's defensive typing is.
2) Those Calculations are Biased
Note that Crobat's 252 Atk BB> Noiverns 252 SPA Draco meteor. Crobat can run 252 Atk fairly easily and get away with it on teams where a fast, offensive defogger is needed since his typing grants him several valuable switch ins. As a pure attacker he is indeed outclassed by Talonflame, but Noivern is mostly outclassed by Lati@s as a pure attacker anyways. The difference is that between his typing, more useful STAB and added utility Crobat is a better choice.
Basically you're using a double standard when arguing about Crobat. You can't argue that since Specs Noivern is stronger than non-Banded Crobat, Noivern is the better option. You're also saying that Noivern is better than Crobat as an Infiltrator user since Talonflame outclasses Crobat but ignore the fact that Lati@s outclass Noivern.
As for Crobat's Niche, Fast Defogger is definitly his bread and butter in this meta, but the thing is that you can run a set that functions both as Fast Defogger and Attacker, just because you put Defog on Crobat doesn't mean you have to completely sacrifice his offensive presence. You do have to run Jolly>Adamant but you can still give him 252 Atk EVs and not lose out.
I was gonna bring this up to mods back in the megakhan banning but I didn't have enough knowledge on the matter.
Basically, should we include the opportunity costs of mega when tiering them? For example, the existence of MegaLuke in OU creates the question "why would you use other offensive Megas when you have MegaLuke". MegaLuke would've been fine if there was no opportunity cost involved, since other offensive Megas such as Megados, MegaZardX and MegaPinsir all cover different niches. However, since there is an opportunity cost, taking advantage of that would mean getting the most out of the cost that you paid for, which, in this case, would translate to picking MegaLuke as your mega.
This fact would now affect the viability of all other Megas covering the same niche. Imo a separate thread should be made about this, not by me of course but perhaps be made by a mod with adequate knowledge of the subject being discussed. Until a consensus is reached, we should avoid including the opportunity costs as a criteria when tiering Megamons.
A tank costing a mega slot isnt hard to justify. Yes, other tanks that dont go mega re good, but the mega slot is aboslutely worth taking as mega venu is one of the best tanks ever. There may be a steep opitniuty cost but there wont be if you base your team around mega venu. Since alot of teams are based around megas, you can have all the other pokemon in the team fit mega venus playstlye or help mega venu out. There is no optinity cost there as the other pokemon suite/help mega venu, and no other megga.
Good. The posts I liked by the three individuals are what I was waiting to see. Also frankly speaking - I use Mega Venusaur a lot (every non-Mega Gyarados team has it). Just one minor thing:
Sleep in itself is powerful; however, Sleep Powder cannot shut down other potential threats as well anymore - walls. Furthermore, Overcoat becoming immune to Sleep Powder is pretty significant too. It means Mandibuzz can come in and Taunt + Foul Play. Poison is risky but it is regular poison. Heal Bell has also increased in popularity with Sylveon and Clefable - and Umbreon might follow shortly as well. Rest + Sleep Talk users also dont really care about it either. Sleep Powder is still good, but it is not a non-negotiating move as it was generations ago. 3 attack + Synthesis Mega Venusaur is great, and let's face it Roar and Leech Seed are also powerful support options for Mega Venusaur. Synthesis is arguably the only attack that is mandatory. The next is usually Sludge Bomb.
Last edited:
If you are actually running this set you are not even using it correctly before you rank it correctly.
I am 100% sure that I have repeated it more than once about the difference between having recover as an option and relying on it to be viable.
Mandibuzz and Blissey rely on recovery to be Viable. In fact most good stall/wall mons (except maybe T-tar) rely on recovery to be viable, recovery is WHY they are viable, this makes no sense.
Assault vest donphan is easily its best set right now. And the only reason you'd use it is because you have another team member laying down stealth rocks. Because rapid spin is still a much better move than defog when you've got your own hazard layer. If you're still using donphan to lay down SR this gen, you might as well use forretress. And we've already talked about how lousy forretress is this generation.
I probably misread something, but I saw somebody ask why cresselia should be used as a wall over something like Deo-D? Well, deoxys defense form isn't a very good wall. Terrible hp means he doesn't last very long against...anything. He'll probably get off some hazards or a thunder wave before he dies but I have never seen anybody actually attempt to use deoxys as their primer wall.
I probably misread something, but I saw somebody ask why cresselia should be used as a wall over something like Deo-D? Well, deoxys defense form isn't a very good wall. Terrible hp means he doesn't last very long against...anything. He'll probably get off some hazards or a thunder wave before he dies but I have never seen anybody actually attempt to use deoxys as their primer wall.
Heatran says hi.
And if I am not specific enough, I mean recover move when I say recover, recover move which only heals and does nothing else noteworthy.
No boosting move, mediocre STAB coverage, sorry I don't see what you mean.
Concerning "no clear argument", may be 10 pages is not enough, I think me alone have presented quite some relevant arguement
Even it may have presented itself invaluable in stall teams, it still doesn't change the fact that stalling is a sub par strategy this gen.(spoken as a stall player my own self)
I know what you mean. And yes I missed heatran, and sort of Rotom, but that's it. Stall isn't viable without at least most of the pokemon using reliable recovery. Also Stall is very viable this Gen, probably more so than last Gen given the weather nerf and defog buff, it just looks a lot different.
And you are also missing Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, etc. TBH leftover is only reason stalling is viable as a strategy, and the healing from leftover is never to be underestimated, which is what Megasaur lacks.
And even stall is viable, the fact that it is nowhere close to be the premier strategy is also there.
So, on a different topic. Slowbro for A rank.
B rank is rather insulting considering you're saying that Slowbro is in the same class as Sylveon and Tentacruel (but maybe they should just be knocked down a tier or two). Slowbro gained a lot this year due to the heavy physical meta and the rise of Lucario-mega. He also is, in my opinion, the single greatest assault vest user. His access to regenerator added with his naturally diverse amount of coverage moves (fire blast, scald/hydro pump, psychic/psyshock, Ice beam, focus blast, shadow ball, signal beam. But this is simply his mixed tank set, which allows him to tank a Solar beam from Charizard Y with no investment as well as take a +2 Dragon claw from dragonite in case you accidentally break a WP.
Even the lack of recover and leftovers is acceptable when you have 1/3 recovery via regenerator. Yeah, he likes wish support, but it isn't essential. Toxic is actually a fine status to have since Slowbro is a defensive pivot and tank and regenerates off all the damage effortlessly. Too slow to bother with the Twave repercussion, and absolutely not bothered by burns, Slowbro is perhaps the definition of tank with the assault vest.
But his assault vest set isn't all he does. One of the traditional physical wall sets allows him to take the physical meta but turn into a wall instead of a tank. With slack off + 3 attacks or slack off, status move +2 coverage moves, Slowbro becomes one of the best physical walls in the meta, especially given his pivot ability and inherent recovery due to regenerator. Dealing with pivots in this meta is common, and uturning on slowbro, though super effective, does not do enough damage to make him lose health after regenerator. He simply has the kind of physical defense that skarmory has, with better recovery, better attacks and a tad less support. He also has the special defenses to take a hit if needed (as long as it isn't SE).
Really, this guy is underrated AF.
B rank is rather insulting considering you're saying that Slowbro is in the same class as Sylveon and Tentacruel (but maybe they should just be knocked down a tier or two). Slowbro gained a lot this year due to the heavy physical meta and the rise of Lucario-mega. He also is, in my opinion, the single greatest assault vest user. His access to regenerator added with his naturally diverse amount of coverage moves (fire blast, scald/hydro pump, psychic/psyshock, Ice beam, focus blast, shadow ball, signal beam. But this is simply his mixed tank set, which allows him to tank a Solar beam from Charizard Y with no investment as well as take a +2 Dragon claw from dragonite in case you accidentally break a WP.
Even the lack of recover and leftovers is acceptable when you have 1/3 recovery via regenerator. Yeah, he likes wish support, but it isn't essential. Toxic is actually a fine status to have since Slowbro is a defensive pivot and tank and regenerates off all the damage effortlessly. Too slow to bother with the Twave repercussion, and absolutely not bothered by burns, Slowbro is perhaps the definition of tank with the assault vest.
But his assault vest set isn't all he does. One of the traditional physical wall sets allows him to take the physical meta but turn into a wall instead of a tank. With slack off + 3 attacks or slack off, status move +2 coverage moves, Slowbro becomes one of the best physical walls in the meta, especially given his pivot ability and inherent recovery due to regenerator. Dealing with pivots in this meta is common, and uturning on slowbro, though super effective, does not do enough damage to make him lose health after regenerator. He simply has the kind of physical defense that skarmory has, with better recovery, better attacks and a tad less support. He also has the special defenses to take a hit if needed (as long as it isn't SE).
Really, this guy is underrated AF.
Guys, just because M-Venusaur can act as a great wall, it doesn't necessarily mean you should use him as such or even use him in a stall team. I do not use stall teams. I find them to be too slow for my taste. Yet I still use M-Venusaur in my teams. That's because he can act as a fantastic tank. His STABs aren't going to grant amazing coverage, but they hit a fair number of things for neutral damage. Add an extra attack for coverage and slap on synthesis to increase his longevity and boom, you got a nice offensive tank called M-Venusaur. With an attack stat of 100/122/80 paired with defensive stats 80/123/120, not only does he hit hard and have solid defenses, he's also pretty darn fast for a tank. He only has 2 weaknesses and if he really wanted to, he could still tank a super-effective hit as so long as it doesn't come from something like a CB Adamant Talonflame.
M-Venusaur can function in more than just stall teams. He can act as a wall for your balanced team (because balanced teams are bound to have some sort of wall or pivot) or he can be part of a bulky offensive team.
M-Venusaur can function in more than just stall teams. He can act as a wall for your balanced team (because balanced teams are bound to have some sort of wall or pivot) or he can be part of a bulky offensive team.
Naming Arcanine for B-/C+
It checks some important physical threats (Talonflame, SD Aegislash, Mega-Mawile, Genesect) and some of his main switch-in loathes burn (Landorus-T, Azumarill, Garchomp, Gliscor especially) and some Heatrans risks the 2HKO from Close Combat. If healthy it actually beats Life Orb Talonflame one on one and it can get a burn on stuff like azumarill, gyarados or dragonite since it's faster. If it hasn't intimidate it checks Bisharp (or even counters). The only reason to use him over Heatran is Extremespeed but priority is always good.
It checks some important physical threats (Talonflame, SD Aegislash, Mega-Mawile, Genesect) and some of his main switch-in loathes burn (Landorus-T, Azumarill, Garchomp, Gliscor especially) and some Heatrans risks the 2HKO from Close Combat. If healthy it actually beats Life Orb Talonflame one on one and it can get a burn on stuff like azumarill, gyarados or dragonite since it's faster. If it hasn't intimidate it checks Bisharp (or even counters). The only reason to use him over Heatran is Extremespeed but priority is always good.
Well... Arcanine is also faster than Heatran and he sports a bigger offensive movepool as well, including gems like Wild Charge and Close Combat. Still though, he's rarely seen in OU. All of his stats are middling, that is... they're decent or even above average, but nothing great. Mono-Fire is not a great typing to have, leaving you weak to common things like stealth rock, earthquake, etc. Arcanine is definitely somewhat viable in OU, but I don't see him going past C+. I'm not even sure if he deserves to be on the list.
Well, I'm getting a really good impression by using him and the fact that people don't expect him cause them to lose their Tyranitar.
I hope at least for a D mention since I think it's at least more useful than Malmar and Mono-Fire it's not that bad right now.
He's already been denied a seat in the ranking list due to not getting an OU analysis.
Arcanine is definitely more viable this gen than last as SR is easier to keep off, he can switch in on fairy moves, he absorbs burns (though he wouldn't appreciate STAB hydro pump from Rotom-W), and there's plenty of times that intimidate is a huge blessing. Main problem is that he was so mediocre last gen that people won't be quick to use him, and he's rather outclassed offensively by Talonflame and Charizard-X. Plus he doesn't have an OU analysis, so there's that.
Okay so apparently you still don't understand.
Noivern is not being used in the same manner as Crobat. The only key thing they share is Infiltrator.
A typing can't make you inherently more frail, besides in the case of entry hazards where both have the same weaknesses to it. If you're going to talk about how common fighting is you can completely disregard your first post claiming flying is better than dragon because neither of them had any nerfs besides Fairy which is almost irrelevant because there's only one fairy using it's typing defensively. Noivern's bulk isn't an issue because it's just attacking, whereas Crobat is trying to use utility moves and needs to live to use more than one. His defensive typing isn't that good when he's losing about 80% to neutral hits and is weak to SR (it has to be there for him to blow it away).
These calculations aren't biased, Noivern will 9 times out of 10 be using Specs in OU. Crobat will be using a Band maybe 1 out of 20 times in OU, and when he is, he isn't doing the job you're advertising. If he isn't running Black Sludge, he's reducing his bulk which severely limits his capabilities as a utility mon. He is almost never going to be investing in attack, because if you're doing that, you're using Crobat in a role played much better by many mons. Talonflame is a way better Choice Band user, for example.
Never once did I say Noivern was a good Pokemon. I'm glad you understand that much, and you need to understand if Noivern is not good and outclasses Crobat as an Infiltrator attacker, Crobat also is not good.
If you give Crobat 252 Atk EVs, you're either losing out on Speed or Bulk, both of which are crucial to Utility Scouts. He can't afford to do it. He's deadweight as an attacker compared to other things. All he can do is Defog faster than other stuff. He's C Rank at best.
Crobat does a few things as a band user that Talonflame doesn't though. Firstly he hits through substitutes and through screens,which shouldnt be washed over. It lets him beat all subseeders, speed passers and most focus punch users too. 130 speed is not the same as priority but it does allow him to revenge kill a lot of threats, and his typing is definitely better than talonflame with two 4x resistances and only a 2x weakness to rocks. These two resistances means he can switch into certain attacks and take them well even with no hp investment. He also has a hypnosis that can hit through substitute as a complete last resort, something which no other pokemon has.
I think banded bat is strong as an offensive mon and carves its own niche as the fastest infiltrator mon and the only viable pokemon with a sleep that hits through substitute. I've been using it a lot and I've been impressed with the results.
I also definitely dont think Crobat gets outclassed with band by Noivern with specs. A U-turn that actually hurts, along with doing more with its bulk due to 4x resistances and no 4x weaknesses. It also doesn't have to switch out after using its main attack.
- Status