Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Sturdynips]

I personally disagree. I think he certainly CAN wreck your soul! With the choice scarf moxie set, you can switch into a pokemon that needs revenge killing and get to work! For the following calculations, Salamence has revenge killed one mon and has a moxie boost. (What if the revenge-ee switches out? You can either fake a choice and not run choice or switch.)

Salamence 2HKOs Rotom-W with dragon claw and is not OHKOd by HP Ice.
Talonflame can only 2HKO with Brave Bird and is OHKOd by Stone Edge
Outspeeds and OHKOs Genesect with Fire Fang
Outspeeds and OHKOs Gengar with Dragon Claw
Outspeeds and OHKOs Garchomp with dragon claw
2HKOs Aegislash S with Earthquake and is almost never KOd by an Iron Head + Shadow Sneak combo (Blade)
.

The problem with scarf mence is the fact that it can't spam Outrage any more. Its coverage moves are never meant for sweeping, except in rare situations. Any move now that Salamence locks itself into can be easily exploited, unlike before. EQ for obvious reasons, Fire Fang and Stone Edge are weak and unreliable, respectively, and Outrage can let you be revenge killed by any Fairy, and Aegislash which is everywhere right now. Dragon Claw simply doesn't cut it in terms of power. As for those calcs; Rotom-w will use w-o-w and ruin your scarfer/sweeper, CB Talonbird KOs after Stealth Rock, Genesect is never going to come into a scarf Salamence locked into fire fang (unless it's CB where Espeed does ~50%)
Basically, there are so many flaws with Scarf Mence; there are so many better scarf users right now

 

[Ryolain]

The issue I have with Salamence, is that the Gen 6 Meta is heavily Priority based, fast paced, and Salamence struggles more than ever to break some of the solid walls this Gen. Togekiss stands out, as something Salamence is really threatened by, as MixMence is no longer as threatening with it around, and DD needs to pick between Stone Edge or Fire Blast, which leaves it vulnerable to other threats. To be fair, Garchomp for instance, also has this issue, but Garchomp isn't Stealth Rock weak, and has a better typing / bulk, better speed and STAB Quake (to name a few things). Its potentially B or even B-, although I wouldn't mind dropping it to a C even, its just that vulnerable atm. Leaning toward B- atm

Agreed with C rank. Dragons in general struggle to remain relevant this generation, and Salamence is all the way at the bottom of the stack. Its one big niche, Scarf Moxie, is too risky to rely on now.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

The problem with scarf mence is the fact that it can't spam Outrage any more. Its coverage moves are never meant for sweeping, except in rare situations. Any move now that Salamence locks itself into can be easily exploited, unlike before. EQ for obvious reasons, Fire Fang and Stone Edge are weak and unreliable, respectively, and Outrage can let you be revenge killed by any Fairy, and Aegislash which is everywhere right now. Dragon Claw simply doesn't cut it in terms of power. As for those calcs; Rotom-w will use w-o-w and ruin your scarfer/sweeper, CB Talonbird KOs after Stealth Rock, Genesect is never going to come into a scarf Salamence locked into fire fang (unless it's CB where Espeed does ~50%)
Basically, there are so many flaws with Scarf Mence; there are so many better scarf users right now

Better scarf users? Maybe, but they operate differently. Most of them focus on revenge killing and U-turning out. Salamence usually waits until the things it fears are out, and then thrashes about until it dies. If my opponent has 1 fairy and 1 steel type, I'll often lose 4 pokemon getting rid of them, then wreck the other 4 with 1 outrage. I realize that's a pretty weird niche, and that's why I'm not pushing for a rank as I don't really know what its worth, but it does it well

Agreed with C rank. Dragons in general struggle to remain relevant this generation, and Salamence is all the way at the bottom of the stack. Its one big niche, Scarf Moxie, is too risky to rely on now.

Struggle to remain relavant? They're not the omnipresent monsters they were last gen, but they're still some of the most deadly pokemon out there. The 2 best, Charizard (on the fast side) and Dragonite (on the bulky side) both demand you treat them accordingly if you don't want to get swept. In fact, besides a few key pokemon (specifically lucario), I can't think of a pokemon that can wreck an entire team as easily as dragons can

 

[Colonel M]

Moxie Salamence has a lot of issues overall and with Mold Breaker + Poison Jab it is impossible for Haxorus to get trolled by Unaware Clefable. Though not a OHKO +1 Adamant Haxorus does 70-82% with Poison Jab. And let's face it aside from Low Kick and Superpower it's not like slot 4 is in huge competition. Meanwhile, Salamence can only dream of pushing through. And Choice Scarf Salamence didn't even get a slot in the analysis to give an idea. The best Scarf Dragon is Garchomp and it's more or less because now STAB Outrage / Dragon Claw aren't mandatory and STAB Earthquake still wrecks a lot despite the number of Pokemon immune to it.

 

[RP2865]

The problem with scarf mence is the fact that it can't spam Outrage any more. Its coverage moves are never meant for sweeping, except in rare situations. Any move now that Salamence locks itself into can be easily exploited, unlike before. EQ for obvious reasons, Fire Fang and Stone Edge are weak and unreliable, respectively, and Outrage can let you be revenge killed by any Fairy, and Aegislash which is everywhere right now. Dragon Claw simply doesn't cut it in terms of power. As for those calcs; Rotom-w will use w-o-w and ruin your scarfer/sweeper, CB Talonbird KOs after Stealth Rock, Genesect is never going to come into a scarf Salamence locked into fire fang (unless it's CB where Espeed does ~50%)
Basically, there are so many flaws with Scarf Mence; there are so many better scarf users right now

You raise good points. This sounds like a valid debate with two valid sides. Exciting! Anyway, I think its a good idea to have a rapid spinner on a team focused with salamence, so SR isn't much of an issue.

 

[RP2865]

Moxie Salamence has a lot of issues overall and with Mold Breaker + Poison Jab it is impossible for Haxorus to get trolled by Unaware Clefable. Though not a OHKO +1 Adamant Haxorus does 70-82% with Poison Jab. And let's face it aside from Low Kick and Superpower it's not like slot 4 is in huge competition. Meanwhile, Salamence can only dream of pushing through. And Choice Scarf Salamence didn't even get a slot in the analysis to give an idea. The best Scarf Dragon is Garchomp and it's more or less because now STAB Outrage / Dragon Claw aren't mandatory and STAB Earthquake still wrecks a lot despite the number of Pokemon immune to it.

ScarfMence can dream of breaking through. If it switches in, I win the battle, since I can hit it three times (on switch in and next two turns) because moon blast isn't a OHKO. Stone Edge is a guaranteed 3HKO, while Aqua Tail is about a 98% 3HKO. That's important.

 

[Colonel M]

ScarfMence can dream of breaking through. If it switches in, I win the battle, since I can hit it three times (on switch in and next two turns) because moon blast isn't a OHKO. Stone Edge is a guaranteed 3HKO, while Aqua Tail is about a 98% 3HKO. That's important.

Maybe against Calm. Bold ones?

252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 69.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lolkeeptrying.

And if Stealth Rock is on the field on Salamence's side:

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Right. So. Tell me where Salamence even comes close to winning when Clefable can just recover.

 

[Ryolain]

ScarfMence can dream of breaking through. If it switches in, I win the battle, since I can hit it three times (on switch in and next two turns) because moon blast isn't a OHKO. Stone Edge is a guaranteed 3HKO, while Aqua Tail is about a 98% 3HKO. That's important.

The point is that you won't hit it on the switch in because (presumably) it's going to come in on a Dragon attack that it's immune to. And if you're Scarfed, you have to switch. Before, a lot of Steel types could often be muscled through with a +1 from Moxie. Even with +6, Scarfed Outrage is going to do 0% to a Fairy. There's a critical difference between a resistance and an immunity, in that the existence of a Dragon immunity nerfs any Poke that likes to lean on Choice-locked Dragon moves.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

The problem with scarf mence is the fact that it can't spam Outrage any more. Its coverage moves are never meant for sweeping, except in rare situations. Any move now that Salamence locks itself into can be easily exploited, unlike before. EQ for obvious reasons, Fire Fang and Stone Edge are weak and unreliable, respectively, and Outrage can let you be revenge killed by any Fairy, and Aegislash which is everywhere right now. Dragon Claw simply doesn't cut it in terms of power. As for those calcs; Rotom-w will use w-o-w and ruin your scarfer/sweeper, CB Talonbird KOs after Stealth Rock, Genesect is never going to come into a scarf Salamence locked into fire fang (unless it's CB where Espeed does ~50%)
Basically, there are so many flaws with Scarf Mence; there are so many better scarf users right now

Lock-in moves do not lock you in when hitting something with an immunity. So if your opponent switched a fairy into Salamence's outrage, you can still switch it out. I won't deny that to sweep with scarf mence you absolutely need fairies removed, but this is not a crippling flaw any more than its need for ice shard users to be removed last gen was. It's still good, it just requires significantly more support to wreck stuff, which is why B seems like a good place for it.

 

[Sturdynips]

Lock-in moves do not lock you in when hitting something with an immunity. So if your opponent switched a fairy into Salamence's outrage, you can still switch it out. I won't deny that to sweep with scarf mence you absolutely need fairies removed, but this is not a crippling flaw any more than its need for ice shard users to be removed last gen was. It's still good, it just requires significantly more support to wreck stuff, which is why B seems like a good place for it.

It does lock you in. In the context of scarf mence, you Outrage a weakened Pokemon, grab a moxie boost, and get locked in. A fairy comes in, and you're helpless.

Anyway, I've made my points about Salamence so I'll leave it at that, C rank fits it IMO

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Lock-in moves do not lock you in when hitting something with an immunity. So if your opponent switched a fairy into Salamence's outrage, you can still switch it out. I won't deny that to sweep with scarf mence you absolutely need fairies removed, but this is not a crippling flaw any more than its need for ice shard users to be removed last gen was. It's still good, it just requires significantly more support to wreck stuff, which is why B seems like a good place for it.

If you kill something and the opponent send in a fairy youre forced to stay in. Thats why scarf mence has no purpose in this metagame.

 

[Ryolain]

Lock-in moves do not lock you in when hitting something with an immunity. So if your opponent switched a fairy into Salamence's outrage, you can still switch it out. I won't deny that to sweep with scarf mence you absolutely need fairies removed, but this is not a crippling flaw any more than its need for ice shard users to be removed last gen was. It's still good, it just requires significantly more support to wreck stuff, which is why B seems like a good place for it.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I think this fits better. If it needed some support last gen, it needs twice as much now, and we're not even taking into consideration how much it dislikes a lot of the other new threats in XY. For example:

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 286-337 (86.4 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

[Chev]

If you kill something and the opponent send in a fairy youre forced to stay in. Thats why scarf mence has no purpose in this metagame.

Although lacking the greater power, a scarf set with Aerial Ace to go for some KO's on the more prevalent fighting and grass types? I didn't run any numbers on it, but it would be a minor loophole around this little fairy issue he seems to be having. also handles Whimsicott quite handily (if it even existed in use at this point).

 

[Magcargo]

Salamence is a B-/C+ Pokemon at the moment. Its not a bad Pokemon, but its eclipsed by nearly every Dragon in A-Rank and B-Rank. Dragon Dance sets are outclassed by Mega Charizard X, Zygarde, and Dragonite, Mixed sets are outclassed by Mega Garchomp, Kyurem-B, Hydreigon, Mega Charizard X, and Dragonite, and the scarf set is very underwhelming and is weak to a large amount of priority sweepers (Azumarill, Tallonflame, Mega Pinsir) as well as fairy-types. I would say that this gens Salamence is comparable to last gens Haxorus, a good Pokemon that was outclassed by a large majority of Dragons.

Lets take a look at the description for C-Rank:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

Salamence can be effective given the right support, but is completely eclipsed by Dragon-types in A-Rank, most notably Mega Charizard X and Dragonite.

 

[6feetunder]

Although lacking the greater power, a scarf set with Aerial Ace to go for some KO's on the more prevalent fighting and grass types? I didn't run any numbers on it, but it would be a minor loophole around this little fairy issue he seems to be having. also handles Whimsicott quite handily (if it even existed in use at this point).

Aerial Ace is lol. Even with STAB it's only 90 BP, weaker than Earthquake.

 

[RP2865]

The point is that you won't hit it on the switch in because (presumably) it's going to come in on a Dragon attack that it's immune to. And if you're Scarfed, you have to switch. Before, a lot of Steel types could often be muscled through with a +1 from Moxie. Even with +6, Scarfed Outrage is going to do 0% to a Fairy. There's a critical difference between a resistance and an immunity, in that the existence of a Dragon immunity nerfs any Poke that likes to lean on Choice-locked Dragon moves.

First, I don't carry Outrage. I carry Dragon Claw. Second, if the opponent has a Clefable, I probably wouldn't use dragon moves unless I wanted to surprise a, say, Garchomp (which is usually faster than salamence) with a SE dragon claw and KO it. Second, it has to switch in eventually, and if it lets pokemon die before it, it gives me more boosts to destroy it. I do see your point, though.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

It does lock you in. In the context of scarf mence, you Outrage a weakened Pokemon, grab a moxie boost, and get locked in. A fairy comes in, and you're helpless.

Anyway, I've made my points about Salamence so I'll leave it at that, C rank fits it IMO

Okay I get it now, that's a very good point. That certainly would make it useless as a revenge killer, but it's still a great sweeper if you can remove fairies, which while a major flaw is not crippling. And while talonflame's brave bird is a huge threat to it, it's also a huge threat to almost every other sweeper that's not particularly bulky. All that said, I'm starting to come around to everyone else's point of view, B- to C+ looks all right given that apparently the scarf set isn't as good as I remember it (I haven't really used it recently). That was what really made salamence different than dragonite in my eyes.

 

[RP2865]

Maybe against Calm. Bold ones?

252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 69.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lolkeeptrying.

And if Stealth Rock is on the field on Salamence's side:

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Right. So. Tell me where Salamence even comes close to winning when Clefable can just recover.

Really, was the lolkeeptrying necessary :)? Anyway, most Clefable are specially defensive, so that spread and nature unusual. Also, do you think that I would have a spinner if I have a salamence? Probably.

 

[RP2865]

Although lacking the greater power, a scarf set with Aerial Ace to go for some KO's on the more prevalent fighting and grass types? I didn't run any numbers on it, but it would be a minor loophole around this little fairy issue he seems to be having. also handles Whimsicott quite handily (if it even existed in use at this point).

Good idea, but I prefer fire fang since fire fang hits steels nicely as well as grass types. How interesting...

 

[King]

Diggersby is completely and utterly outclassed by Lando-T. Why do I say so?

Jolly Diggersby (280 Spe) is outsped by Adamant Lando-T (281 Spe), and is also weaker with this Jolly-Adamant (422 Attack Diggers contra 427 Attack Lando-T)
Lando-T has much superior bulk in 89/90/80 coupled with Intimidate and a relevant immunity to ground-type moves, meaning he can be a superior pivot and scarfer
Lando-T does DoublaDance/SubSD/Rock Polish better, due to aforementioned bulk

The only thing Diggersby has is a usable secondary STAB to use offensively, as well as slight more power if he runs Adamant. Yeah, and that he can check Aegislash slightly more comfortably. That's it, really.

So, he's eclipsed by a superior mon, but he still has a tiny niche that gives him a reason to stay in the rankings.

Let's highlight the most important thing you said. Now that that's done, lets focus on it. Diggersby is by no means a defensive presence like lando-t is, you're right. But lando-t isn't that strong when you make it a diggersby, it has another role. In this meta where Aegislash is a S ranked mon and it's on almost every single team out there, you'd think a more reliable check to that kind of mon would be more applicable on a team, right? Also i'll add that Diggersby is, in my opinion, at least B level. I never said anything like a+ or S ranked, where lando-t i believe falls. But on an offensively oriented team that can appreciate hard hitting mons with great stabs, Diggersby fits the role easily. Due to its frailty, it is not S or A+ ranked nor is it A ranked yet. But I feel that you touched on the points to at least make it a B ranked threat in that not only can it counter one of the most prevalent threats in the metagame and has two very reliable and usable stabs, but it also has access to a hard hitting priority move. At least B rank please.

 

[Ryolain]

Really, was the lolkeeptrying necessary :)? Anyway, most Clefable are specially defensive, so that spread and nature unusual. Also, do you think that I would have a spinner if I have a salamence? Probably.

We're getting into this annoying "with all counters gone and my opponents setting their EVs the right way and field conditions perfect and accurately predicting every move and the planetary alignment occurring on the winter solstice" nonsense. Every qualifier you make or discussion of how the team will fix his flaws only pushes him further down in rank, not up.

 

[RP2865]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

I will use this as basis for two arguments.
1. Salamence is NOT a C+. Maybe it can be a B-, but not any C. It can sweep through significant portions of the metagame (not everyone, maybe not fairies, but at least significant). Salamence for B-, B, or B+.

2. Diggersby is NOT a B. Diggersby cannot sweep through significant portions of the metagame, and let's not even start about walling. Priority moves can wreck it (it's weak to ice shard and aqua jet). It has a speed of 78, which is slow for OU, and just won't work with 85/77/77 defenses. Also, the two types don't cover any weaknesses. Certain match ups destroy it (Skarmory, Gengar) and allow the opponent to gain momentum. Diggersy for C

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Salamence discussion is going nowhere at this point, let's leave it at least for now and move on.

Diggersby is C+, B- at ABOLUTE best. Checking or countering an s-rank threat is not enough to put something in B rank, or we would have had Slowking there last gen for countering Keldeo and scolipede for countering Deoxys-D. It doesn't check much of anything else besides things it can OHKO with quick attack, and for a spot like that you're really better off with a scizor or azumarill, both of which have more bulk and better typing (and in the case of scizor, more power). Offensive teams want hard hitting FAST mons with great stabs (normal is not even approaching great), and diggersby just doesn't cut it. He hasn't got the power to be a wallbreaker, or the power behind Quick Attack to be an effective revenge killer or sweeper with his low speed.

 

[6feetunder]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

That's the definition for B rank, not C.

 

[Ajwf]

Can we talk about slowbro at all? I made a post a while ago about him, and am slightly disappointed to have no discussion on this fantastic pokemon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-54#post-5131228 is a recap of my reasoning, I'm still pushing for his rank to be upgraded to A.