Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Diggersby is not a C+ pokemon. I'm sorry. But it just isn't. I would like for discussions about it being a B level pokemon to happen. Thanks

Diggersby is completely and utterly outclassed by Lando-T. Why do I say so?

Jolly Diggersby (280 Spe) is outsped by Adamant Lando-T (281 Spe), and is also weaker with this Jolly-Adamant (422 Attack Diggers contra 427 Attack Lando-T)
Lando-T has much superior bulk in 89/90/80 coupled with Intimidate and a relevant immunity to ground-type moves, meaning he can be a superior pivot and scarfer
Lando-T does DoublaDance/SubSD/Rock Polish better, due to aforementioned bulk

The only thing Diggersby has is a usable secondary STAB to use offensively, as well as slight more power if he runs Adamant. Yeah, and that he can check Aegislash slightly more comfortably. That's it, really.

So, he's eclipsed by a superior mon, but he still has a tiny niche that gives him a reason to stay in the rankings.

 

[Lazybeef]

I would like to nominate Mew for at least B+to A Rank

Mew was UU last gen, but he was still capable of competing in higher tiers due to his sheer versatility and unpredictability. Although capable of running other sets for support, I would like to mainly touch on one of Mew's new found roles.

The 6th generation has given Mew a defog buff as an addition to its already huge support move-pool.
It is one of only a select group of pokemon that can clear the field of both hazards and screens, then proceed to set up hazards for its own team. Hazard setting and removing makes up a crucial part of most good teams, and Mew can do both.

Mew's typing is its biggest downfall defensively, however he makes up for it with impressive 100/100/100 defenses and reliable recovery in the form of soft-boiled. He is capable of using will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers, taunt to prevent set up or if an opening arises he can even pass boosts on to team mates.
The inclusion of Mew in a team allows for more versatility in team building and in my opinion is very worthy of an analysis for these reasons.

Mew may not be that popular at the moment, however we are still in the early days of the gen 6 meta-game. I expect to see him get increased usage as teams look for an alternative to other hazard setters and removers such as Donphan, Forretress, Empoleon, Tentacruel and Avalugg. (Can't think of any others that are close to being viable). With a reliable recovery option Mew already has an advantage over these pokemon. It is also beneficial to the user of Mew because they can bluff other sets should his usage become more common.

Another thing worth mentioning is that unlike many other defog candidates he is not weak to stealth rock. It is true however that he is weak to spikes and toxic spikes, but these two moves will see decreased usage due to the need to set up multiple layers. Players who try to set up multiple layers are obviously in danger of wasting too many turns due to the ease of using defog.

Mew fits this criteria:

• "fulfil a given defensive niche" (B rank criteria)
• "Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time." (A rank criteria)

Therefore I would like to see him at least ranked from B+ to A rank.

Mew doesn't have a defensive niche. Psychic is a bad defensive typing and there are loads of other pokemon who can take hits better. Bug and Dark weaknesses are not good at all with knock off and genesect being so common. Therefore if Mew is to be ranked at all it should be as a supporting pokemon.

As for hazards setter, you list several alternatives which are all mediocre in todays metagame. The best hazard setters are for example Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Heatran, Mamoswine etc. As for hazard removers your best bets are Excadrill, Starmie, MBlast, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Gliscor and Lati@s.

As you can see, Mew faces alot of competition from numerous top tier pokemon. As for the defog+recovery+hazard niche Mew still has to compete with gliscor and skarmory who both have better defensive typings and better physical bulk. The only thing mew has over these two pokemon is higher speed and special bulk, and that is just not enough to compete for A rank.

Mew is an interesting pokemon because it is so versatile, but every single one of it's sets are done better by some other pokemon. Still, mew is a very good support pokemon in it's own right, and given the right support it can be effective. Mew's bulk and great movepool is enough to drag it out of C rank.

Mew for B- rank.

 

[Baharoth]

Hi everyone,

i am kinda new to the forum and competitive battling. However, I have been reading these forums and this thread for quite a while now and there is something thats been bugging me from the beginning of this thread so i finally decided to register and just ask about it.

Its about Jolteon, a pokemon that i am using alot in my battles, that startet off in this thread as a D Rank but meanwhile its gone completly, from what i have read because its considered to be outclassed, unfortunately i couldnt find the reasoning behind that and i dont realy understand it myself so i hope someone can enlighten me here.

From what i can see the only "Rivals" Jolteon has as a fast and strong electric type are Mega Manectric and Thundorus-T. While Mega Manectric pretty much outclasses it, its also using up the Mega Slot which, in my opinion gives Jolteon a niche. If u want a pokemon like that, but have ur megaslot reserved for something else, Mega Manectric is out of the question.
That said the only remaining rival is Thundorus-T. Both have the same ability and are overall very similar with Jolteon being faster while Thundorus packs more power. On the typing side Jolteon is vulnerable to earthquake/power while thundorus is weak to rock and ice attacks. So far they are more or less even. That leaves the coverage options where both of them have very few options. Both get hiddenpower, Thundorus gets focusblast while Jolteon gets shadow ball, which is a very handy move to have from my experience, with all those Ghost/psychic types around, imo even better than focusblast. Electric/Ghost has good neutral coverage though i have to admit that shadowballs power without specs isnt realy thrilling against neutral targets. I dont want to start a discussion whether Jolteon is better/worse than Thundorus, but i would like to understand why Thundorus is considered to be OU worthy (he gets an analyisis) while Jolteon is not.

There are quite a few things that differentiate them from each other. Jolteon ist outspeeds and hits stuff like Gengar, Aegisslash, Chandalure, the lati twins and quite a few other things for super effectiv dmg while Thundorus has better overall stats and packs more power. Is that realy enough to outclass Jolteon completely? I have read the discussion about Sylveon/Florges and I fully understand why Florges is outclassed here, in the Jolteon case however its not so obvious, at least not to me so i would like to hear some opinions about that.

 

[alphatron]

When talking about mediocre pokemon in OU, a lot of people like to say that they're outclassed by Pokemon of the same type. This is usually an argument worth ignoring unless the Pokemon are really similar or are intended to run the same role (sylveon and Florges. Fifth gen Pinsir and heracross). It's not so much that jolteon is outclassed by mega manectric. It's higher initial speed, permanent immunity, and ability to hit harder differentiate him quite a bit. Mega manectric doesn't hit that hard and only really shines as a pivot switch / momentum keeper.

Jolteon's problem is that he just isn't that good. He's really fast but is also too easily stopped by a lot of things. it's not necessary to compare him to potential sweepers like thundurus (who can abuse prankster) or mega manectric at all because he doesn't even rank. He's frail and is usually too weak to get rid of threats that can easily tank a hit and ohko him. Assault vest didn't do him any favors either. Add that to his lack of coverage (a curse for every eeveelution not named vaporeon) and what's left for him? He can't sweep with a base 60 hp ice, thunderbolt, and shadow ball. Rain's nerfs havent helped him either. Don't forget that even with thundurus-I banned and manectric being irrelevant in Gen 5, he was dangerously close to falling out of OU anyway (until Stone made that RMT).

Also, the argument about taking up a mega slot usually doesn't work. If I want to use mega manectric, it's because I already have an idea in mind of what role he's supposed to play on my team. Unless there were plenty of non-mega Pokemon who could do his job, I'm not wasting my mega slot at all. The same goes for mega venusaur since I don't exactly see a plethora of other mega options that can do what he does and be used instead.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Jolteon's not getting an analysis this time around.

 

[Tressed]

Hi everyone,

i am kinda new to the forum and competitive battling. However, I have been reading these forums and this thread for quite a while now and there is something thats been bugging me from the beginning of this thread so i finally decided to register and just ask about it.

Its about Jolteon, a pokemon that i am using alot in my battles, that startet off in this thread as a D Rank but meanwhile its gone completly, from what i have read because its considered to be outclassed, unfortunately i couldnt find the reasoning behind that and i dont realy understand it myself so i hope someone can enlighten me here.

From what i can see the only "Rivals" Jolteon has as a fast and strong electric type are Mega Manectric and Thundorus-T. While Mega Manectric pretty much outclasses it, its also using up the Mega Slot which, in my opinion gives Jolteon a niche. If u want a pokemon like that, but have ur megaslot reserved for something else, Mega Manectric is out of the question.
That said the only remaining rival is Thundorus-T. Both have the same ability and are overall very similar with Jolteon being faster while Thundorus packs more power. On the typing side Jolteon is vulnerable to earthquake/power while thundorus is weak to rock and ice attacks. So far they are more or less even. That leaves the coverage options where both of them have very few options. Both get hiddenpower, Thundorus gets focusblast while Jolteon gets shadow ball, which is a very handy move to have from my experience, with all those Ghost/psychic types around, imo even better than focusblast. Electric/Ghost has good neutral coverage though i have to admit that shadowballs power without specs isnt realy thrilling against neutral targets. I dont want to start a discussion whether Jolteon is better/worse than Thundorus, but i would like to understand why Thundorus is considered to be OU worthy (he gets an analyisis) while Jolteon is not.

There are quite a few things that differentiate them from each other. Jolteon ist outspeeds and hits stuff like Gengar, Aegisslash, Chandalure, the lati twins and quite a few other things for super effectiv dmg while Thundorus has better overall stats and packs more power. Is that realy enough to outclass Jolteon completely? I have read the discussion about Sylveon/Florges and I fully understand why Florges is outclassed here, in the Jolteon case however its not so obvious, at least not to me so i would like to hear some opinions about that.

The issue with Jolteon is that it really isn't that great and faces a lot of competition. When you think of the offensive Electric types in OU that Jolteon has to compete with, the ones that come to mind are Rotom-W, Thundurus-I, Thundurus-T, and Mega Manectric, and Rotom-H has been getting some notice recently as well. All of these have major selling points over Jolteon. Rotom-W has Hydro Pump, Thundurus-I is versatile with Prankster and amazing offenses, Thundurus-T is pure power, Manectric has a much wider movepool and can take a hit, and Rotom-H has an interesting typing defensively while packing offensive presence. Conpared to these, Jolteon doesn't have much outside of its Speed, and to be honest there isn't that many things past 110 that Jolteon would want to go after, Greninja and Torn-T being the only notable exceptions that come to mind. The special moves nerf also left it with less power in its bread and butter moves, Thunderbolt and Hidden Power, and the weather nerf means that it can't run Thunder as reliably any more.

I don't think Jolteon really has much of a niche this gen. It wasn't very good last gen, and the various nerfs and strong competition leaves it in a bad spot. The highest I would want it would be C Rank, there's just too many things against it now.

 

[Salemance]

I made a post about Crawdaunt last night that, aside from one person, went unnoticed. It made basically the same points as yours (though in more detail) and I came to the same conclusion. Crawdaunt fits the description of B very well, though it's pretty easily threatened by much of the metagame. C+/B- would be the most reasonable ranking.

Here is that post:

Okay then, glad to see someone else was thinking of the lobster, and I really don't think there is much more to say about him other than that he is also ironically checked by Azumarill. XD

On the topic of Hippowdon, I agree with Remedy's idea of A rank. The amount of threats Hippowdon can counter is simply ridiculous. In addition to Remedy's list Heatran is incredibly common this generation and Specially Defensive Hippowdon is the just about the best Heatran switch in in this metagame. It can just tank whatever hit and Slack Off as Heatran is forced out. Physically Defensive Hippowdon is also able to beat a big threat in Assault Vest Conkeldurr which is able to muscle past many Pokemon with great bulk and power. Also Hippowdon gets access to the best move in the game, Stealth Rock and is able to phaze Pokemon that try to set up on it with Whirlwind. With correct prediction he can Whirlwind when his counters come in and just build up more SR damage. For all these things, Hippowdon deserves an A rank.

I would also like to add to your post that Hippo has 10% more bulk than Skarm thanks to that HP stat and he has great base attack for a tank. I can agree on the idea of A Rank.

 

[SergantGold]

Okay then, glad to see someone else was thinking of the lobster, and I really don't think there is much more to say about him other than that he is also ironically checked by Azumarill. XD


I would also like to add to your post that Hippo has 10% more bulk than Skarm thanks to that HP stat and he has great base attack for a tank. I can agree on the idea of A Rank.

In a tankish role, which implies he is meant to attack and power through, Zygarde would likely do better than hippodown due to kickass movepool and far better overall bulk

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Okay then, glad to see someone else was thinking of the lobster, and I really don't think there is much more to say about him other than that he is also ironically checked by Azumarill. XD


I would also like to add to your post that Hippo has 10% more bulk than Skarm thanks to that HP stat and he has great base attack for a tank. I can agree on the idea of A Rank.

Thirding (or fourthing or whatever) hippowdon for A. It's basically just a really solid defensive mon that can do a lot of useful stuff, plus sandstorm.

Crawdaunt I see as C+ max, maybe C. It's an absolute nightmare to switch into IF it gets in on something that can't outspeed it and OHKO it, but it is incredibly easy to force it out.

 

[chra]

I'd like to talk about Jolteon a little bit longer, actually. I won't claim that I know a whole lot about his role in past generations (this is the first generation I've jumped into competitively), but he has served me incredibly well as a really, really fast nuke that can take a shot to the face now and again.

Thundurus-T and Mega Manectric aside, he's been an all-star on several of my teams when he's got Specs on. Because he outspeeds pretty much everything that's not boosted or has a scarf (and he event outspeeds some scarfed mon with a beneficial nature), he's able to steal initiative by Volt Switching into a check/counter or just nuking whatever is in front of him with the appropriate coverage move. And if you predict a switch into a ground type, he has HP Ice or even Shadow Ball for neutral coverage.

I understand that the metagame is heavily invested in priority at the moment, but he resists some of the most common ones in Bullet Punch and Brave Bird. With the rise of Mega Pinsir, he also resists the Quick Attack/Return combo that's been showing up a lot as well.

Beyond that, however, I honestly feel like Jolteon isn't necessarily outclassed by the aforementioned, but that he serves an entirely different purpose: speed. With Jolteon on my team it has often felt like it's running both Specs AND Scarf at the same time. Not a lot outspeeds it. He ties with Mega Manectric, and is only outsped by Mega Aerodactyl, all the while slinging coverage moves to weaken or even OHKO common sweepers.

I may be speaking through rose-tinted glasses, but my experiences with Jolteon have shown that he is quite far from outclassed in this current gen.

 

[Colonel M]

Rotom-H is really good actually. It is one of the few Pokemon other than Heatran that, literally, resists every attack Genesect throws at it barring ExtremeSpeed. It also is good for checking a variety of other threats. There are some minor issues with it, but it definitely is B worthy.

Crawdaunt is B- - not C+. It is very hard to boast what Crawdaunt has in power and it is actually hard to produce a hard counter to it. Crunch 2HKOes most of Crawdaunts counters as does Knock Off. Crabhammer is monstrous for power too. Even Azumarill is nervous switching into Choice Band Crawdaunt since Azumarill risks being 2HKOed or losing its item.

Ironic how everyone points to Thundurus-T as a fast Pokemon (though at least with Agility that is true) but they forget regular Thundurus and Raikou who heavily outclass Jolteon in many roles barring Baton Pass. 130 Speed is nice and it may resist a lot of priority moves; however, they do a good chunk of damage due to Jolteon's poor bulk. Outside of outspeeding Starmie, Greninja, and Noivern Jolteon doesnt outspeed enough extra threats to warrant usage. Most smart Talonflame invest in some HP to take recoil easier.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

I'd like to talk about Jolteon a little bit longer, actually. I won't claim that I know a whole lot about his role in past generations (this is the first generation I've jumped into competitively), but he has served me incredibly well as a really, really fast nuke that can take a shot to the face now and again.

Thundurus-T and Mega Manectric aside, he's been an all-star on several of my teams when he's got Specs on. Because he outspeeds pretty much everything that's not boosted or has a scarf (and he event outspeeds some scarfed mon with a beneficial nature), he's able to steal initiative by Volt Switching into a check/counter or just nuking whatever is in front of him with the appropriate coverage move. And if you predict a switch into a ground type, he has HP Ice or even Shadow Ball for neutral coverage.

I understand that the metagame is heavily invested in priority at the moment, but he resists some of the most common ones in Bullet Punch and Brave Bird. With the rise of Mega Pinsir, he also resists the Quick Attack/Return combo that's been showing up a lot as well

Beyond that, however, I honestly feel like Jolteon isn't necessarily outclassed by the aforementioned, but that he serves an entirely different purpose: speed. With Jolteon on my team it has often felt like it's running both Specs AND Scarf at the same time. Not a lot outspeeds it. He ties with Mega Manectric, and is only outsped by Mega Aerodactyl, all the while slinging coverage moves to weaken or even OHKO common sweepers.

I may be speaking through rose-tinted glasses, but my experiences with Jolteon have shown that he is quite far from outclassed in this current gen.

Well I'll make this quick.

1. HP Ice isn't exclusive to Jolteon, nor is Volt Switch, the main draw to Jolteon is the ability to hold Specs or another item.
2. The same can be applied to Mega Manectric who resists the same priority, but Manectric boasts better HP and Defenses not even taking into account Intimidate.
3.I'd hate to be that guy, but Mega Manectric dosen't tie with Jolteon, Manectric is faster with 135 compared to Jolteon's 130 Base Speed.

Anyway, before anyone brings up the Mega Slot, that's usually a bad argument, as Mega Manectric has qualities that no other Mega can really fill, a fast pivot with Intimidate that pairs wonderfully with Lando-T on Volt-Turn, as double Intimidate can be such a momentum grabber. Of course, like any argument, feel free to respond on what you think I may of missed and the like, I'm all for the discussion, so long as it's civil.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'd like to talk about Jolteon a little bit longer, actually. I won't claim that I know a whole lot about his role in past generations (this is the first generation I've jumped into competitively), but he has served me incredibly well as a really, really fast nuke that can take a shot to the face now and again.

Thundurus-T and Mega Manectric aside, he's been an all-star on several of my teams when he's got Specs on. Because he outspeeds pretty much everything that's not boosted or has a scarf (and he event outspeeds some scarfed mon with a beneficial nature), he's able to steal initiative by Volt Switching into a check/counter or just nuking whatever is in front of him with the appropriate coverage move. And if you predict a switch into a ground type, he has HP Ice or even Shadow Ball for neutral coverage.

I understand that the metagame is heavily invested in priority at the moment, but he resists some of the most common ones in Bullet Punch and Brave Bird. With the rise of Mega Pinsir, he also resists the Quick Attack/Return combo that's been showing up a lot as well.

Beyond that, however, I honestly feel like Jolteon isn't necessarily outclassed by the aforementioned, but that he serves an entirely different purpose: speed. With Jolteon on my team it has often felt like it's running both Specs AND Scarf at the same time. Not a lot outspeeds it. He ties with Mega Manectric, and is only outsped by Mega Aerodactyl, all the while slinging coverage moves to weaken or even OHKO common sweepers.

I may be speaking through rose-tinted glasses, but my experiences with Jolteon have shown that he is quite far from outclassed in this current gen.

I wouldn't say he's outclassed, as much as he's just not all that great. He's just average. While his STAB attacks are powerful, you also have to take into account his bulk 60 hp and 65 defense is pathetic, and means you can't get Jolteon in unless something dies or your opponent predicts that. The thing about Jolteon is that it pretty much HAS to run Specs to be usable. Without it, you lack any real backbone to your attacks. It resorts to 2HKOs most of the time even with the specs, and that opens it up to being revenged, or worn down pretty quickly. I just feel like if you want a quick volt turner, you should just use Rotom-W or Mega-Manectric. Jolteon has competition from Thundurus-T, which can offset its poor speed with Choice Scarf and Agility, while packing more power. Choice Scarf users will amost always outspeeding Jolteon, making Jolteon even less effective.

 

[Colonel M]

Actually a huge perk Manectric has over Jolteon is access to Flamethrower / Overheat which makes Ferrothorn a non-issue and Magnezone a less significant threat.

In my 4ish years of competitive Pokemon I thought I would never say this... but here I am saying it.

Salamence faces very stiff competition this generation as a Dragon in general. The advent of Fairy-types does not help the situation either. Dragonite, Haxorus, and Mega Charizard X are arguably better users of Dragon Dance this generation and competition from Garchomp doesn't help Salamence either.

I actually think A-/B+ is more suitable this generation. Salamence is still monstrous, but the 6th generation brought a hefty hammer to it.

 

[Baharoth]

I dont realy see Jolteon as a sweeper tbh. He realy lacks the Coverage and Power to actually attempt a sweep. But as a lead/revenger/lategame cleaner he is quite good imo. Yes his physical bulk ist horrible but he can take a few hits on the special side and aside from priority and scarf users nothing can even hit him as long as the target is in ohko range (which it should be when ur using him a revenger/late game cleaner if its not just voltswitch the hell out of there or dont switch in in the first place)

If i were to rank him i would probably put him in C Rank or something because I see a niche for him with his outstanding speed, but he surely has some competition (though i dont realy see Rotom-W/H as competition since they serve a completely different role usually) and he needs support to work. The question is do you think he deserves a ranking or is it definite that he wont get an analysis and therefore cant be ranked? If its already decided that he doesnt get an analysis then its pointless arguing over a possible rank for him.

/edit @ shadowmariogalaxy64 The question is, doesnt he have an analysis by now because nobody volunteered to write one, or did someone ask to write one but it was decided that he doesnt deserve one.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

Guys and ginganinja (if she's reading...and likely will), Jolteon is not getting an OU Analysis (as far as I saw in the list), therefore cannot be ranked. Since then, we should likely blacklist it.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Actually a huge perk Manectric has over Jolteon is access to Flamethrower / Overheat which makes Ferrothorn a non-issue and Magnezone a less significant threat.

In my 4ish years of competitive Pokemon I thought I would never say this... but here I am saying it.

Salamence faces very stiff competition this generation as a Dragon in general. The advent of Fairy-types does not help the situation either. Dragonite, Haxorus, and Mega Charizard X are arguably better users of Dragon Dance this generation and competition from Garchomp doesn't help Salamence either.

I actually think A-/B+ is more suitable this generation. Salamence is still monstrous, but the 6th generation brought a hefty hammer to it.

Since my favorite Jolteon set is the specs revenge killer one, and Manectric is more of a sweeping (ish) pokemon, I don't think they compete that much. Jolteon gets in, blows something up (or forces it out), and switches out (or faints for the clean switch), Manectric goes in and blows stuff up, and blows stuff up, and blows stuff up, until something either KO's it or forces it out.

As for the Salamence, I'd still say its better than Haxorus because of Moxie, and it can do something Charizard can't, choice scarf. Anybody trying to dragon dance with Salamence obviously played a little too much during RSE, and haven't seen the sun since. Salamence is one of my favorite late game sweepers because once you eliminate any fairies (and steel types if possible), you can throw it out and outrage until the world crumbles before you.

 

[Judgement Blade]

Salamence's "problem" is a lot of little things that added up. The way the meta is right now is a bit too bulky for him to just waltz up and wreck your soul, burns being chucked around hurts him a lot, megas in general mess with him, priority being popular and fairies falling in a blind spot of his coverage. He's still "good" in the sense that if you give him an inch he'll take your arm, your friend's arm and your sister's innocence, but it's harder for him to pull it off.

 

[RP2865]

Salamence's "problem" is a lot of little things that added up. The way the meta is right now is a bit too bulky for him to just waltz up and wreck your soul, burns being chucked around hurts him a lot, megas in general mess with him, priority being popular and fairies falling in a blind spot of his coverage. He's still "good" in the sense that if you give him an inch he'll take your arm, your friend's arm and your sister's innocence, but it's harder for him to pull it off.

I personally disagree. I think he certainly CAN wreck your soul! With the choice scarf moxie set, you can switch into a pokemon that needs revenge killing and get to work! For the following calculations, Salamence has revenge killed one mon and has a moxie boost. (What if the revenge-ee switches out? You can either fake a choice and not run choice or switch.)

Salamence 2HKOs Rotom-W with dragon claw and is not OHKOd by HP Ice.
Talonflame can only 2HKO with Brave Bird and is OHKOd by Stone Edge
Outspeeds and OHKOs Genesect with Fire Fang
Outspeeds and OHKOs Gengar with Dragon Claw
Outspeeds and OHKOs Garchomp with dragon claw
2HKOs Aegislash S with Earthquake and is almost never KOd by an Iron Head + Shadow Sneak combo (Blade)

Those are just some examples. Feel free to request proof, and have a nice day :)

Actually a huge perk Manectric has over Jolteon is access to Flamethrower / Overheat which makes Ferrothorn a non-issue and Magnezone a less significant threat.

In my 4ish years of competitive Pokemon I thought I would never say this... but here I am saying it.

Salamence faces very stiff competition this generation as a Dragon in general. The advent of Fairy-types does not help the situation either. Dragonite, Haxorus, and Mega Charizard X are arguably better users of Dragon Dance this generation and competition from Garchomp doesn't help Salamence either.

I actually think A-/B+ is more suitable this generation. Salamence is still monstrous, but the 6th generation brought a hefty hammer to it.

Those mons may be better at dragon dancing, but Salamence has better special attack than the first two and has Moxie (which none of them has). However, I think your ranking is spot on. :) Salamence isn't dominant enough to be an A neutral.

 

[Sandoori]

Volcarona sort of went unnoticed amidst the Florges arguments yesterday. Can we get some discussion on it?

I think Volcarona could fit in B+. Both offensive and bulky sets have merit in the metagame, and are especially notable for beating slower special attacking Water-types (bar Manaphy) one-on-one. Offensive sets can get really dangerous really quickly, and can screw up certain defensive responses with either Giga Drain or Hidden Power Ground. Bulky sets put their resistances and SpD boost from Quiver Dance to much better use, and can outlast and overpower bulky threats with Roost or even occasionally make use of Flame Body to soften certain hits (mainly Fighting-types that forgo Rock coverage). The Stealth Rock weakness as well as the presence of Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir and Azumarill do not do it any favors whatsoever, but an amazing boosting move in Quiver Dance coupled with very nice STABs are hard to ignore.

B+ sounds like a good spot for it. It definitely needs a lot of support - namely hazard removal - but physically defensive Volcarona's been working wonders for me (248HP/252Def/8SpAtk Modest). It can safely switch in on a lot of relevant threats, namely Genesect and Mega Lucario, and can even set up against Rotom-W then heal up with Giga Drain if it hasn't volt switched out.

Some calcs of interest:
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 68-81 (18.2 - 21.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 4 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 104-123 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 84.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 134-158 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- 92.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 508-604 (179.5 - 213.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Flame Body is the icing on the cake here, and has swung several matches in my favor by taking the edge off of U-Turns.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 147-173 (39.4 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 98-116 (26.2 - 31%) -- 9.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 50-59 (13.4 - 15.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 89-105 (23.8 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 326-386 (116 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's completely safe for Volcarona to switch in on any common attack from Mega Luc or SD/NP, take a hit, and then OHKO in return. In a similar vein, Volc can be used to revenge a +2 Lucario. The only thing it needs to worry about is Stone Edge, but a Mega Luc running Stone Edge has things other than Volcarona to worry about.

(hi everyone first post)

After playtesting it more I'd almost say it belongs in A/A- instead, but the stealth rock weakness and presence of Talonflame really hurts.

 

[RP2865]

You should probably say why it's A/A-, and I disagree with you. The reasons are that it has terrible physical defense (65) supplemented by a mediocre HP (85). It is weak to aqua jet, and is vulnerable to every entry hazard. If every entry hazard was on the field, and it held a life orb (and attacked every turn), it would die in two turns! I am not expecting a full layer of hazards for everything, and rapid spin does exist, but that is a problem. Feel free to consider :)

 

[Ropeburn]

You should probably say why it's A/A-, and I disagree with you. The reasons are that it has terrible physical defense (65) supplemented by a mediocre HP (85). It is weak to aqua jet, and is vulnerable to every entry hazard. If every entry hazard was on the field, and it held a life orb (and attacked every turn), it would die in two turns! I am not expecting a full layer of hazards for everything, and rapid spin does exist, but that is a problem. Feel free to consider :)

Volcarona is the very definition of a win condition. Obviously, it needs proper support, but it's still a prevalent threat. I guess on a team that didn't properly support Volcarona, it wouldn't seem very good, but it's a damn monster in the right hands. Defog and Rapid Spin go a long way.

Also, what runs Aqua Jet besides Azumarill? The bulky volcarona set is not OHKO'd by aqua jet from a CB azumarill.

 

[Sandoori]

The reasons are that it has terrible physical defense (65) supplemented by a mediocre HP (85)

1. This isn't very far behind Sylveon's bulk, which is far from terrible.
2. Apparently you didn't see the quoted calcs matching it up against Mega Lucario. This thing is far from fragile.

But here, if you need more convincing, Mega Pinsir can't switch in on it after a Quiver Dance:

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 204-240 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Mawile ends up in about the same boat as Mega Lucario, and just like him is threatened by burns from Flame Body, though Volcarona needs to run a stronger fire attack than Fiery Dance or have more SpAtk from somewhere to ensure a KO on a bulky build:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 143-168 (38.3 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 127-150 (34 - 40.2%) -- 40.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 170-200 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
8+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

That said, most mawiles run a significant number of speed EVs:
8+ SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 120 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 258-306 (95.2 - 112.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

It is weak to aqua jet

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Volcarona: 246-290 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Considering it's probably answering that with a Giga Drain - and might burn its attacker with Flame Body - I don't think it'll care too much in most cases.

If every entry hazard was on the field

if every hazard was on the field why are you sending volcarona in and not spinning or defogging them off of it

and it held a life orb

To my mind, physically bulky Volcarona's the way to go, which would run leftovers instead.

Also it has healing available from both Giga Drain and Roost, the former which also lets it beat a lot of water types that would otherwise give it trouble.

 

[Star]

Volcarona is the very definition of a win condition. Obviously, it needs proper support, but it's still a prevalent threat. I guess on a team that didn't properly support Volcarona, it wouldn't seem very good, but it's a damn monster in the right hands. Defog and Rapid Spin go a long way.

Also, what runs Aqua Jet besides Azumarill? The bulky volcarona set is not OHKO'd by aqua jet from a CB azumarill.

Crawdaunt also runs Aqua Jet to answer your question. The question is not whether or not Volcarona is good because it undeniably is. Its just that the amount of support it needs can be annoying. You have to constantly make sure hazards are off the field and this can ruin the momentum of the team. Also, Volcarona's defensive typing is not too good and he has to live enough to set up one or preferrably two Quiver Dances. I would suggest A-/B+ because of these flaws.

 

[lordkira]

I personally disagree. I think he certainly CAN wreck your soul! With the choice scarf moxie set, you can switch into a pokemon that needs revenge killing and get to work! For the following calculations, Salamence has revenge killed one mon and has a moxie boost. (What if the revenge-ee switches out? You can either fake a choice and not run choice or switch.)

Salamence 2HKOs Rotom-W with dragon claw and is not OHKOd by HP Ice.
Talonflame can only 2HKO with Brave Bird and is OHKOd by Stone Edge
Outspeeds and OHKOs Genesect with Fire Fang
Outspeeds and OHKOs Gengar with Dragon Claw
Outspeeds and OHKOs Garchomp with dragon claw
2HKOs Aegislash S with Earthquake and is almost never KOd by an Iron Head + Shadow Sneak combo (Blade)

Those are just some examples. Feel free to request proof, and have a nice day :)


Those mons may be better at dragon dancing, but Salamence has better special attack than the first two and has Moxie (which none of them has). However, I think your ranking is spot on. :) Salamence isn't dominant enough to be an A neutral.

Scarf Salamence doesn't outspeed scarf Garchomp.
Scarf Salamence's dragon claw does not OHKO garchomp.

252 Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 282-332 (78.7 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO