Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Really, was the lolkeeptrying necessary :)? Anyway, most Clefable are specially defensive, so that spread and nature unusual. Also, do you think that I would have a spinner if I have a salamence? Probably.
Uh.

[19:13] <TIBot> Calm:252/0/0/4/252/0 17.022% | Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 15.098%

Yeah that's pretty fucking close honestly. Way too fucking close for comfort.

Also don't you think that most people who pack Clefable will be smart and completely shitstomp Salamence? Probably.

Dude get it - Salamence. Fucking. Sucks. It's not like it was in the older gens. It isn't bad, but to even think it being A is extremely laughable in the current metagame.
 
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

I will use this as basis for two arguments.
1. Salamence is NOT a C+. Maybe it can be a B-, but not any C. It can sweep through significant portions of the metagame (not everyone, maybe not fairies, but at least significant). Salamence for B-, B, or B+.

2. Diggersby is NOT a B. Diggersby cannot sweep through significant portions of the metagame, and let's not even start about walling. Priority moves can wreck it (it's weak to ice shard and aqua jet). It has a speed of 78, which is slow for OU, and just won't work with 85/77/77 defenses. Also, the two types don't cover any weaknesses. Certain match ups destroy it (Skarmory, Gengar) and allow the opponent to gain momentum. Diggersy for C

Actually a +2 diggersby has a lot of potential in our metagame. Please don't underestimate it. I also never said Diggersby for A rank which I am placing most of the OU metagame under. I simply said B, corresponding to UU maybe, so please stop attacking me. C+ looks RUish to me and frankly it would destroy the tier. Diggersby has a lot of potential because of its stab and priorities that DO in fact hit hard. I can prove to you in a few matches that diggersby can wreck your shit, if you would like.

Also about salamence- as sad as I am to see one of my favorite mons lose credit, it seriously deserves no place in the A rank with the amount of steels and new immunities running around. It's outpaced by stronger dragons and moxie just isn't as important as it used to be.
 
Can we talk about slowbro at all? I made a post a while ago about him, and am slightly disappointed to have no discussion on this fantastic pokemon.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-viability-ranking-thread.3495992/page-54#post-5131228 is a recap of my reasoning, I'm still pushing for his rank to be upgraded to A.

I agree with either Slowbro moving up to A or Tentacruel and Sylveon moving down to C. Not sure which necessarily makes more sense, but Slowbro is absolutely more viable than either of those two this generation. It's a perfect Assault Vest user, IMO only trumped by Conkeldurr. I'd say the main thing that hurts it is the increase in Dark/Ghost moves, which makes its Psychic typing a liability.
 
Actually a +2 diggersby has a lot of potential in our metagame. Please don't underestimate it. I also never said Diggersby for A rank which I am placing most of the OU metagame under. I simply said B, corresponding to UU maybe, so please stop attacking me. C+ looks RUish to me and frankly it would destroy the tier. Diggersby has a lot of potential because of its stab and priorities that DO in fact hit hard. I can prove to you in a few matches that diggersby can wreck your shit, if you would like.

These viability rankings are purely for within OU. Nothing here is going to be UU or below unless it's in D rank, which is reserved for stuff that basically has 1 small niche in OU but no other purpose. C is perfect for Diggersby, he hurts when he works but it's not uncommon for a team to unintentionally have a counter or check for him. He doesn't need to be specifically planned for and he pretty much always requires support to achieve the free turns he wants for his SD/Agility boost.
 
So, on a different topic. Slowbro for A rank.

B rank is rather insulting considering you're saying that Slowbro is in the same class as Sylveon and Tentacruel (but maybe they should just be knocked down a tier or two). Slowbro gained a lot this year due to the heavy physical meta and the rise of Lucario-mega. He also is, in my opinion, the single greatest assault vest user. His access to regenerator added with his naturally diverse amount of coverage moves (fire blast, scald/hydro pump, psychic/psyshock, Ice beam, focus blast, shadow ball, signal beam. But this is simply his mixed tank set, which allows him to tank a Solar beam from Charizard Y with no investment as well as take a +2 Dragon claw from dragonite in case you accidentally break a WP.

Even the lack of recover and leftovers is acceptable when you have 1/3 recovery via regenerator. Yeah, he likes wish support, but it isn't essential. Toxic is actually a fine status to have since Slowbro is a defensive pivot and tank and regenerates off all the damage effortlessly. Too slow to bother with the Twave repercussion, and absolutely not bothered by burns, Slowbro is perhaps the definition of tank with the assault vest.

But his assault vest set isn't all he does. One of the traditional physical wall sets allows him to take the physical meta but turn into a wall instead of a tank. With slack off + 3 attacks or slack off, status move +2 coverage moves, Slowbro becomes one of the best physical walls in the meta, especially given his pivot ability and inherent recovery due to regenerator. Dealing with pivots in this meta is common, and uturning on slowbro, though super effective, does not do enough damage to make him lose health after regenerator. He simply has the kind of physical defense that skarmory has, with better recovery, better attacks and a tad less support. He also has the special defenses to take a hit if needed (as long as it isn't SE).

Really, this guy is underrated AF.

First of all, it's pretty questionable to try to determine a rank based on other mons in the same tier - tentacruel and sylveon are honestly pretty good anyway. While slowbro is good, it's not overwhelmingly good and I haven't ever seen one be particularly hard to get past. Since you are pushing for it to make A, can you post some calcs showing that it "walls a significant portion of the metagame"? That would be more convincing.

Also on SD Diggersby, it seems pretty badly outclassed by SD scizor (mega or not).
 
Clefable Vs Salamence --

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Salamence stands literally no chance at KOing until +2 range is achieved, and that's through E-quake. Lesson learned, Clefable will pull out a win outright unless you've gotten (2) moxie boosts
 
Actually a +2 diggersby has a lot of potential in our metagame. Please don't underestimate it. I also never said Diggersby for A rank which I am placing most of the OU metagame under. I simply said B, corresponding to UU maybe, so please stop attacking me. C+ looks RUish to me and frankly it would destroy the tier. Diggersby has a lot of potential because of its stab and priorities that DO in fact hit hard. I can prove to you in a few matches that diggersby can wreck your shit, if you would like.

Also about salamence- as sad as I am to see one of my favorite mons lose credit, it seriously deserves no place in the A rank with the amount of steels and new immunities running around. It's outpaced by stronger dragons and moxie just isn't as important as it used to be.
One more thing. In my opinion, the rankings correspond to
S: May be used in Ubers (Scizor in Gen VI)
A: Great in OU (Infernape in Gen IV)
B: Somewhat often seen in Ubers (Togekiss this gen)
C: Usable in OU (Diggersby this gen?)
D: Mostly unusable in OU
 
Again enough with the salamence (talking to the discussion on both sides). This is no longer a productive discussion, it's turning into more of what got this thread absolutely broken a few days ago. Please move on so we can rank something else.

EDIT: RP2865 I'm sorry but that's incorrect, we do not rank things based on individuals' opinions of the rankings, but on the objective ranking descriptions in the OP.
 
Clefable Vs Salamence --

4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Salamence stands literally no chance at KOing until +2 range is achieved, and that's through E-quake. Lesson learned, Clefable will pull out a win outright unless you've gotten (2) moxie boosts
No. That is not true, sorry :). First of all, unaware clefable ignores moxie boosts. Anyway:
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 159-188 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(^ with NO boosts)
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (your post)
We can all assume that Scarf Mence is faster than Clefable. If clef able switches into Earthquake, it loses. That was my point...
 
One more thing. In my opinion, the rankings correspond to
S: May be used in Ubers (Scizor in Gen VI)
A: Great in OU (Infernape in Gen IV)
B: Somewhat often seen in Ubers (Togekiss this gen)
C: Usable in OU (Diggersby this gen?)
D: Mostly unusable in OU
So looking at your ratings list Salamence would definitely hit a C-D rank since:

[19:35] <Colonel_M> !usage salamence ubers
[19:35] <TIBot> Salamence - #80 in Ubers | Usage: 0.95914% | Raw count: 4,231 | Weight: 0.317577628946

So yeah. C rank for Salamence it is!
We can all assume that Scarf Mence is faster than Clefable. If clef able switches into Earthquake, it loses. That was my point...
Clefable can just recover the damage anyway. So it barely matters unless Salamence rolls a critical hit.
 
I'm just gonna say it here without quotes that a Salamence 1v1'ing a Clefable is already a loss but if you take out the those threats with the right pokemon, you can brush past that. This is exactly why I said that Salamence needs support in order to perform decently in the meta. I see that Mence is being brush down to C but I guess that's fine. I didn't expect the argument to be this heated up....

Can we just talk about the other pokemon before a certain someone locks this....again? >.>

For example, Rotom H? I used to use him because my old team was prone to burns a lot and I used him before I switched to Wash. I saw a few pages on it but I don't know if he is getting an analysis or if he is already ranked. I'll go see if that is the case but the previous two pages kinda made me feel a bit.....sad (I don't know how else to word it. The thread was going so fine earlier.....)
 
Haiyama: B- or C Rank
Offensively, he is slow and generally outclassed by Machomp and Conkeldurr. However, he has access to two things they don't: Whirlwind and Thick Fat. With access to five resistances and a slew of coverage moves (Notably: Rock Slide/Stone Edge, since he will probably lure out Talonflame...) and Knock Off (... or Ghosts), and the ability to Phaze and Knock Off (Mass Removal of items), this guy could be a welcome addition to OU with a good team balance. Packing only weaknesses to Flying, Psychic, and Fairy, he can balance out teams that don't care as much about those (but need some of his resistances).

On a totally different Hariyama note, a "joke"
Hariyama @ Wide Lens
Adamant 252 Attack / 252 Def / 4 HP
- Focus Energy
- Cross Chop
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
100% crits on two moves, and Knock Off with 50% crits. =D Now you laugh because it's a joke.
 
Let me restate. I don't think you understand :(
"IN MY OPINION"
my opinion is in no way the views of smogon, of mods, of other people, or even necessarily right!
Well, if those are your own personal rankings, they are irrelevant to the thread. If they are your ideas of Smogon's rankings, they are just incorrect. Either way, we should move on. Anyone else want to weigh in on slowbro? I'm still not convinced that it needs to be moved out of B.
 
For B I mean "in OU" not in Ubers. Sorry. Fail #2 :)
[19:38] <Colonel_M> !usage salamence
[19:38] <TIBot> Salamence - #52 in OU | Usage: 3.52396% | Raw count: 115,878 | Weight: 0.488931800817
[19:39] <Colonel_M> !usage togekiss
[19:39] <TIBot> Togekiss - #31 in OU | Usage: 5.60964% | Raw count: 173,755 | Weight: 0.519189777771

So what are we suggesting is "often used in OU"? It's even worse for 1850s:

[19:39] <Colonel_M> !usage1850 salamence
[19:39] <TIBot> Salamence - #64 in OU | Usage: 2.73507% | Raw count: 115,878
 
No. That is not true, sorry :). First of all, unaware clefable ignores moxie boosts. Anyway:
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Clefable: 159-188 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(^ with NO boosts)
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 236-282 (71.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (your post)
We can all assume that Scarf Mence is faster than Clefable. If clef able switches into Earthquake, it loses. That was my point...
Scarf mence should ALWAYS be running a Jolly nature to beat scarf Genesect. Beating Scarfed Genesect is the main reason why Scarf Mence isn't completely irrelevant.
Also please do not Double Post, as it is heavily looked down upon.
 
One more thing. In my opinion, the rankings correspond to
S: May be used in Ubers (Scizor in Gen VI)
A: Great in OU (Infernape in Gen IV)
B: Somewhat often seen in Ubers (Togekiss this gen)
C: Usable in OU (Diggersby this gen?)
D: Mostly unusable in OU
TL;DR version of rankings, as per OP

S: Fantastic in OU, top of the tier
A: Great in OU
B: Good in OU
C: Might have a niche in OU, but more often than not aren't that great
D: Trash in OU

Your opinion on how the rankings should work is irrelevant because they already have set definitions.
Let me restate. I don't think you understand :(
"IN MY OPINION"
my opinion is in no way the views of smogon, of mods, of other people, or even necessarily right!
If you don't even believe your own opinion is right, why bother?

Anyways, its been a solid day and we're already spiraling into madness once again. Lets not make Ginga cleanse this thread again, folks.
 
Haiyama: B- or C Rank
Offensively, he is slow and generally outclassed by Machomp and Conkeldurr. However, he has access to two things they don't: Whirlwind and Thick Fat. With access to five resistances and a slew of coverage moves (Notably: Rock Slide/Stone Edge, since he will probably lure out Talonflame...) and Knock Off (... or Ghosts), and the ability to Phaze and Knock Off (Mass Removal of items), this guy could be a welcome addition to OU with a good team balance. Packing only weaknesses to Flying, Psychic, and Fairy, he can balance out teams that don't care as much about those (but need some of his resistances).

On a totally different Hariyama note, a "joke"
Hariyama @ Wide Lens
Adamant 252 Attack / 252 Def / 4 HP
- Focus Energy
- Cross Chop
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off
100% crits on two moves, and Knock Off with 50% crits. =D Now you laugh because it's a joke.

Hariyama is not getting a 6th gen OU analysis and as such will not be ranked.
 
Calcs on Slowbro being a beast? Well, I'm going to use my custom spread for his AV set. The spread is 252/220/36 on the defensive invests respective to how they appear running bold nature.

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(In response):
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 212-250 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special side:
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 282-334 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(The above scenerio is WP Dnite that Dragon dances, you break multi scale with ice beam and he retaliates next turn... Generally, you shouldn't LET this happen, but you can still win).

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I like showing off just how good the AV is even if this situation should never happen.

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Slowbro wins 1v1. Pretty cool, if you ask me :0
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(to which, Gene dies next turn).
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 272-322 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Slowbro is slower so more relevant calc. Obviously can't switch in, but Aegi is a tempting switch-in to slowbro.)

Any questions?
 
Calcs on Slowbro being a beast? Well, I'm going to use my custom spread for his AV set. The spread is 252/220/36 on the defensive invests respective to how they appear running bold nature.

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(In response):
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 212-250 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special side:
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 282-334 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(The above scenerio is WP Dnite that Dragon dances, you break multi scale with ice beam and he retaliates next turn... Generally, you shouldn't LET this happen, but you can still win).

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I like showing off just how good the AV is even if this situation should never happen.

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Slowbro wins 1v1. Pretty cool, if you ask me :0
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(to which, Gene dies next turn).
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 272-322 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Slowbro is slower so more relevant calc. Obviously can't switch in, but Aegi is a tempting switch-in to slowbro.)

Any questions?
Okay so this is in fact very impressive. I can see him in B+, maybe A. Do you find that regenerator is always enough to keep him going throughout a match? He doesn't look too difficult to wear down, but I know from experience that regenerator is deceptively effective.
 
I think the first results solidify my point. Almost top 50 in OU should spell B- at worst. What is 1850's though? (Feel free to tell me in conversation :)

1850 stats; stats restricted to players with ratings of 1850 or higher. You can find them in the usage stats thread.
 
Okay so this is in fact very impressive. I can see him in B+, maybe A. Do you find that regenerator is always enough to keep him going throughout a match? He doesn't look too difficult to wear down, but I know from experience that regenerator is deceptively effective.
Given the damage that those calcs deal seem to be worst case scenarios, I'd say that Slowbro won't be too difficult to keep going as long as you have some sort of hazard control.

Anyways, +1 for Ajwf, I'll throw my support in for B+ minimum, possibly A-.
 
Calcs on Slowbro being a beast? Well, I'm going to use my custom spread for his AV set. The spread is 252/220/36 on the defensive invests respective to how they appear running bold nature.

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 122-146 (30.9 - 37%) -- 79.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(In response):
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 212-250 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Special side:
+2 252 SpA Mega Lucario Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 282-334 (71.5 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(The above scenerio is WP Dnite that Dragon dances, you break multi scale with ice beam and he retaliates next turn... Generally, you shouldn't LET this happen, but you can still win).

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I like showing off just how good the AV is even if this situation should never happen.

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Slowbro wins 1v1. Pretty cool, if you ask me :0
+1 252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(to which, Gene dies next turn).
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Slowbro: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Assault Vest Slowbro: 246-290 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 272-322 (83.9 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Slowbro is slower so more relevant calc. Obviously can't switch in, but Aegi is a tempting switch-in to slowbro.)

Any questions?

I think that Slowbro should rise to B+, but not A. Its not outclassed by any pokemon and is a great part to a defensive core with mega venesaur. I believe you, I've played against your stall team with it. However it has a few problems of its own that prevent it from functioning as well as it would like and it can't be thrown on any team. Its special defense is somewhat lackluster, and an assault vest prevents it from using healing on the spot and using thunder wave. It can be pursuit trapped by Band Tyranitar, and actually as a chance for OHKO. It can also be walled by pokemon such as mega venesaur (if they have some sort of status support) or celebi. I think that B+ is still pretty good (up there with skarmory) and that it definitely is viable in today's meta.
 
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