Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Plus, lets go over stat differences.
Sylveon:
HP: 95Atk: 65Def: 65SpA: 110SpD: 130Spe: 60BST: 525
Abilities: Cute Charm, Pixilate (Hidden Ability)

Florges:
HP: 78
Atk: 65
Def: 68
SpA: 112
SpD: 154
Spd: 75
Abilities: Flower Veil, Symbosis (Hidden Ability)

Sure, Sylveon outclasses Florges in HP and Abilities, but thats it. Everything else, Florges has it greater than Sylveon (Even Defense). I don't see how Sylveon outclasses Florges. Sure, it has better HP and abilities, but every other stat, Florges has it higher. Is it because Sylveon is an Eeveelution? Is it because it has ribbons? Is it because Florges is (semi) based off of an inanimate object? I don't know.
 
AwesomeFennekin said:
Plus, lets go over stat differences.
Sylveon:
HP: 95Atk: 65Def: 65SpA: 110SpD: 130Spe: 60BST: 525
Abilities: Cute Charm, Pixilate (Hidden Ability)

Florges:
HP: 78
Atk: 65
Def: 68
SpA: 112
SpD: 154
Spd: 75
Abilities: Flower Veil, Symbosis (Hidden Ability)

Sure, Sylveon outclasses Florges in HP and Abilities, but thats it. Everything else, Florges has it greater than Sylveon (Even Defense). I don't see how Sylveon outclasses Florges. Sure, it has better HP and abilities, but every other stat, Florges has it higher. Is it because Sylveon is an Eeveelution? Is it because it has ribbons? Is it because Florges is (semi) based off of an inanimate object? I don't know.
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A couple dozen pages back, we were explicitly told to not bring up Florges again due to how the arguing was getting. I'd imagine that still stands as doing so was said to get you black listed.

Here is said post for reference, just sorta giving you a heads up man, hate for ya to not be able to contribute due to not knowing.

ginganinja said:
O.k I ended up deleting something like 40 posts, and infracted a number of people. Restarting this again.

Quick points: I don't want to see Arcanine and Florges discussed at all within the next 60 pages. To make this clear to a few users I have blacklisted them from the thread, and will start deleting + infracting posts made about these mons that are terrible and / or backed up with little or no reasoning. This is not limited to just Arcanine and Florges, so IF you nominate a pokemon for a tier, make sure, you can back it up with solid, well reasoned evidence, or your post WILL be deleted and infracted. In exchange, I will take an open mind with each and every pokemon submitted. If you are unsure or not confident if your post meets the required criteria, you can ask an OU mod for assistance. Its much easier to correct one post quickly, than to wade through four pages of flaming, bitching and thread derailment, so please, talk to someone if you are unsure.

If for whatever reason, an OU mod is busy or I am afk (it happens), you can contact a Mentor on smogon for advice. They are not hard to find, (you can ask Birkal if you have any questions) and are there to help you. If you are a new user wanting to post in this thread and are unsure, I am sure there are mentors on hand to give you advice.
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*deleted because its been said already*
This reaaallyyyyy needs to get dropped as there are way more important things to talk about (like Rotom-H, where are we placing him?) and its already been settled several times
 
There's been dearth of new placements in general, unless I've missed something in the last 20 pages.

How about Chesnaught? Bullet proof allows it to hard counter most Aegislash sets. Also, resisting earthquake and dark moves is particularly good this meta. It also has a better protect for seed stalling, and still packs a decent punch when needed.
Honestly I can't argue for it particularly well as I haven't played it myself, but some 2000+ people I've watched used it to moderate success.
 
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UnicornDemon said:
Can someone explain to me what makes Deoxys-Speed so threatening? Cause I'm not seeing it. Suicide hazard/dual screen lead sets aren't very useful if the opponent has a defogger. And it's not the best supporter due to it's downright awful defensive typing. It's offenses are too mediocre to make use of an offensive set. And it still gets out-sped by choice scarf users over 103 speed as well as any priority user (unless you're running a physical set with extreme speed- but then you'd have to give up psycho boost).

Seriously, what set is this thing running in OU that deems it worthy of S-tier?

Also, fwiw:

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 256-303 (106.2 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Deoxys s is pretty much the only hazard setter that skarmory can't just switch into and use defog. Having the fastest taunt in the game means it can stop any defogger from switching into it and clearing its hazards or screens. Also there aren't a lot of scarfers faster than 103 this gen, as scarf keldeo and terrakion are much rarer this gen. Its really invaluable for HO teams that need to set up a frail sweeper at a moments notice.
 
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UnicornDemon said:
Can someone explain to me what makes Deoxys-Speed so threatening?
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I would look back at ALL of my posts consisting of reasons why Deoxys-S is S-Rank and why it is one of the most difficult Pokemon to directly handle. Many people haven't, so...let's begin.

Suicide hazard/dual screen lead sets aren't very useful if the opponent has a defogger.
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I doubt a defogger is going to switch into Deoxys-S at first. You have to significantly consider this: You don't know what set it will run. Oh, so it's the lead? That means NOTHING! It could be the Anti-Lead. Example: That Tyranitar of yours? This Superpower takes care of it and now you're 6-5 *claps*. You can't know what set it will run unless you scout it. It's quite possibly the most unpredictible Pokemon right now. Why would you put your defogger out there immediately if you don't know what move it's going to use? Suicide Hazard remains its most effective set, yes, and it could fake you out with an Ice Beam (instead of Fire Punch if the team in question has Genesect on lock), scare you off, then proceed to set a Stealth Rock up and Magic Coat your Sableye's Will-O-Wisp back at you.

it's not the best supporter due to it's downright awful defensive typing.
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Oh, because the Defensive Typing says EVERYTHING. Let's talk about Tyranitar, Reuniclus, Chesnaught, Lapras, and many other Pokemon that have bad typings. You forget to mention the lack of bulk and how Priority is big, but the typing doesn't matter if the Pokemon in question doesn't have the bulk for a Defensive Pokemon (in all honesty, it's like you switched from Speed to Defense Forme; choose a premise and stick to it!).

It's offenses are too mediocre--
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I'll stop you right here...
breathe for me...in...and out...
Now...Deoxys-S doesn't have the sheer offenses, but it has Life Orb and a vast Super-Effective Movepool. Fire Punch/Superpower/Ice Beam/Psycho Boost is one of the hardest movepools to switch into. Genesect, Tyranitar, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Dragonite, Salamence, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and even some Pokemon hit neutrally like Physically Defensive Rotom-W, etc. These are some big threats that can't switch into Deoxys-S. Want the calcs? Fine.
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 291-343 (102.8 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 406-478 (100.4 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 515-608 (145.4 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 484-572 (126.7 - 149.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
232 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 203-239 (62.6 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guys, that's with Multiscale up...)
Don't think I have to post about Salamence if Dragonite is screwed...
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 276-328 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, going to your "dies from Priority" argument...
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 177-208 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...too soon?
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 166-198 (47.1 - 56.2%) -- 21.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Still a hefty chunk of damage off of the most Physically Defensive Spread here.
232 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-W: 222-263 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Followed by...
20 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 75-90 (24.6 - 29.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
If the Rotom-W in question isn't dead, then it's entirely crippled.

Of course, this is all considering the spread of the Defenders as well. The big plus in all of this is that Deoxys-S outspeeds all Genesect, minus ExtremeSpeed, which does this:

252 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 90-107 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

it still gets out-sped by choice scarf users over 103 speed as well as any priority user (unless you're running a physical set with extreme speed- but then you'd have to give up psycho boost).
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Okay, so...flee from Priority users and not many people use Scarf anymore (even on Terrakion nowadays, which I haven't seen in a while), so...

Seriously, what set is this thing running in OU that deems it worthy of S-tier?
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You won't know until it's too late.

Oh yeah, and you know...fastest Knock Off...
 
Professional2341 said:
Nominating Chandelure B-/C+
Chandelure DID get an analysis b4 anyone tries to troll me here.

Alright, Ghost- types in general got a lot of stuff in this gen, they are un-trappable, they get past Steel- Type, they are only resisted by 1 type (Dark) and only 1 type is immune to it (Normal), furthermore it has two immunities (Fighting & Normal).

Chandelure is resistant to 7 types and weak to 4 types, but immune to 2 types. STAB Ghost in gen VI is as good as STAB Dragon in Gen V; probably the most powerful STAB.

Furthermore Chandelure has base enormous 145 base SpA and mediocre 80 speed that is enough to wallbreak. With average bulk of 60/90/90.
Chandelure is also very versatile, can run HP Ground & Fighting, can run SubSplit, can run Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb, and WoW support.
Chandelure has amazing movepool too, Fire blast, Shadow Ball, Overheat, Energy Ball, Heat Wave, etc.
With Choice Specs it is just overkilling the whole metagame.

Flash Fire just helps your teammates getting through Fire Weakness, while Infiltrator lets you pass Subs & Screens just to make this guy an even better sweeper/wall breaker.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 246-291 (34.4 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 204-241 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

With Choice Scarf & Timid nature it is outspeeding the whole non-scarf 252+ 144 base speed metagame.
With LO it is not getting locked & can still do a lot.
SubCM or SubSplit is also amazing as chandelure forces many switches and thus making substitute easy to set up. They also add to his versatile. Not to mention Fire + Ghost combo is very very good (Gets the likes of Heatran too this gen).
It also gets Momento and Trick, two moves that support the team immensely. Trick is amazing with choice items.

It has downsides tho, being Pursuit & Sucker Punch weak, being weak to 2 priorities (Aqua Jet & Shadow Sneak) even though resisting 1 priority (Bullet Punch) and being immune to 2 (Vacuum wave & Mach Punch), it also vulnerable to all kinds of hazards (A balloon can be given to avoid Spikes & Sticky Web though).
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I'm reposting this to get us off of that topic, what do you think of Chandy guys?
 
Chandelure is fine in B, it is no longer walled by Heatran now and it also serves as one of the best Genesect counters around. It's still weak to SR, but a SubSplit set or Defog support can remedy that easily. Also, it's one of the harder pokemon to successfully wall. Tyranitar is a pain though if you don't have HP Fighting, and it can Pursuit-trap choiced variants pretty easily. Nevertheless it fullfills a proper offensive niche, it does have its flaws but they don't prevent Chandelure from being effective at what it does (unlike C rank). Thus, B rank it is.
 
On the topic of Deoxys-S, is there any real reason you absolutely have to run max Speed? (Last gen OU people said "to outrun most Dragon Dancers" which is extremelly stupid.) I don't think ScarfMence/Rachi are worth even hitting 493 (+1 Timid Volc maybe but you can't really OHKO that.) 448 beats Timid Scarf Rotom which is much more relevant and allows you to focus more on offenses. (208 Speed EVs, which means you can run 252 SpA and still have a +nature, and 48 Atk EVs)

If I missed anything that's really important then fine, but I can't really see ever needing more since you will never outspeed stuff like +1 Terrakion or Latios.
 
dbzmariogeno said:
On the topic of Deoxys-S, is there any real reason you absolutely have to run max Speed? (Last gen OU people said "to outrun most Dragon Dancers" which is extremelly stupid.) I don't think ScarfMence/Rachi are worth even hitting 493 (+1 Timid Volc maybe but you can't really OHKO that.) 448 beats Timid Scarf Rotom which is much more relevant and allows you to focus more on offenses. (208 Speed EVs, which means you can run 252 SpA and still have a +nature, and 48 Atk EVs)

If I missed anything that's really important then fine, but I can't really see ever needing more since you will never outspeed stuff like +1 Terrakion or Latios.
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Last generation in Ubers, we ran max Spe on Deoxys-S mainly to outspeed and almost guarantee a KO on Choice Scarf Genesect with Fire Punch, and then just to speed tie with opposing Deoxys-S. (252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 276-328 (97.52 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO.) Not sure if this translates to OU that well, but Genesect is a fairly big threat right now if I'm not mistaken. This is mostly for a hazards lead set, as an all-out attacker would probably prefer max SpA investment.

However, Deoxys-S can run a spread of 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe with a Jolly nature to achieve the same ends.
 
dbzmariogeno said:
On the topic of Deoxys-S, is there any real reason you absolutely have to run max Speed? (Last gen OU people said "to outrun most Dragon Dancers" which is extremelly stupid.) I don't think ScarfMence/Rachi are worth even hitting 493 (+1 Timid Volc maybe but you can't really OHKO that.) 448 beats Timid Scarf Rotom which is much more relevant and allows you to focus more on offenses. (208 Speed EVs, which means you can run 252 SpA and still have a +nature, and 48 Atk EVs)

If I missed anything that's really important then fine, but I can't really see ever needing more since you will never outspeed stuff like +1 Terrakion or Latios.
Click to expand...

Depends on what set you're running really. If you're going for the LO/Ebelt set, 236 speed EVs with a + speed nature (500 Spe) are best to outspeed Scarf Garchomp and KO with ice beam.

On the screens set, there isn't really any standard spread, though scarf Genesect is a good benchmark I guess, if you carry fire punch.
 
T-Bolt said:
You missed Sylveon, who can stall it out with wish+protect, specially defensive M-venusaur isn't 2HKOed by fire blast and can synthesis+leech seed stall. I can't think of anymore at the moment (except Florges, but that's outclassed). Anyway, I'm pretty sure stall/semi-stall teams will be packing one of these mons (including the ones you've listed).
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252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (always 2HKO after rocks... and no one runs max SpDef on Sylveon)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
blitzlefan said:
Last generation in Ubers, we ran max Spe on Deoxys-S mainly to outspeed and almost guarantee a KO on Choice Scarf Genesect with Fire Punch, and then just to speed tie with opposing Deoxys-S. (252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 276-328 (97.52 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO.) Not sure if this translates to OU that well, but Genesect is a fairly big threat right now if I'm not mistaken. This is mostly for a hazards lead set, as an all-out attacker would probably prefer max SpA investment.

However, Deoxys-S can run a spread of 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe with a Jolly nature to achieve the same ends.
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I know about outspeeding Genesect and everything, but at the same time, better players will never stay in against a Deoxys-S. I've been playing Ubers since 2011 and it's become extremelly obvious not to stay in when Fire Punch has become so common, it was just a thought that would hopefully move discussion away from things like Florges

Also the entire point wasn't those EVs, just possibly a better EV spread
 
blitzlefan said:
Last generation in Ubers, we ran max Spe on Deoxys-S mainly to outspeed and almost guarantee a KO on Choice Scarf Genesect with Fire Punch, and then just to speed tie with opposing Deoxys-S. (252 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 276-328 (97.52 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO.) Not sure if this translates to OU that well, but Genesect is a fairly big threat right now if I'm not mistaken. This is mostly for a hazards lead set, as an all-out attacker would probably prefer max SpA investment.

However, Deoxys-S can run a spread of 56 HP / 252 Atk / 200 Spe with a Jolly nature to achieve the same ends.
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Genesect is always hasty, so only 156 Atk investment is enough
156 Atk Deoxys-S Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 284-336 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Also, now that genesect can be pursuit trapped, naive prevents a OHKO from Band Tyranitar.

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch (Pursuit on the switch) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 255-301 (90.1 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 229-271 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Gennosuke Fujiki said:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (always 2HKO after rocks... and no one runs max SpDef on Sylveon)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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You forget protect on Sylveon. With protect and some SpDef investment, Sylveon can take a second fire blast too, and use wish. Protect again and repeat.

Yes, I guess I was wrong about mega-Venusaur. Still, if you predict right and get in on any of the other moves, you can stall charizard out since Synthesis gets increased recovery in Sun.

But yeah, I guess this does change my mind about the effectiveness of Mega-Charizard. It might be an issue of interpreting the A+ rank though, since it does specify that the Pokemon must be able to sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame. A rank seems like the highest rank a wall breaker can go.
 
Gennosuke Fujiki said:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Sun: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (always 2HKO after rocks... and no one runs max SpDef on Sylveon)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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I run 252 HP / 252 +SpDef on my Sylveon. It's the standard for the cleric set.

As long as Sylveon is healthy, it can check Mega Charizard Y. Switch it into Fire Blast, then Protect for Lefties recovery. Zard has almost no chance of 2HKOing with Fire Blast while you just Wish up and Protect again. Zard can only do this twice, or it'll run out of PP (unless the user gets smart and uses Solarbeam on Protect...).
 
November Blue said:
I run 252 HP / 252 +SpDef on my Sylveon. It's the standard for the cleric set.

As long as Sylveon is healthy, it can check Mega Charizard Y. Switch it into Fire Blast, then Protect for Lefties recovery. Zard has almost no chance of 2HKOing with Fire Blast while you just Wish up and Protect again. Zard can only do this twice, or it'll run out of PP (unless the user gets smart and uses Solarbeam on Protect...).
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I always see max defense Bold variants which takes physical hits much better. But eh, it might be a check in that case.

T-Bolt said:
You forget protect on Sylveon. With protect and some SpDef investment, Sylveon can take a second fire blast too, and use wish. Protect again and repeat.

Yes, I guess I was wrong about mega-Venusaur. Still, if you predict right and get in on any of the other moves, you can stall charizard out since Synthesis gets increased recovery in Sun.

But yeah, I guess this does change my mind about the effectiveness of Mega-Charizard. It might be an issue of interpreting the A+ rank though, since it does specify that the Pokemon must be able to sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame. A rank seems like the highest rank a wall breaker can go.
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Prediction shouldn't be an argument, as it goes for both sides.
As for wallbreakers, they are not sweepers. Their role is to break down walls. ZardY does that to great extent, I mean his coverage moves are stronger than Scarf Kyogre's coverage moves. So, basically, there's so few things that can reliably switch in on it that it's not even funny.
 
Pipotchi said:
(like Rotom-H, where are we placing him?)
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(Sweet, I can use color texts (I know I used it before but not outside of quotes)....not sure if that's allowed but might as well mention it somewhere.... ^^;)

I agree to this. The fact that Rotom-H has a decent STAB (makes Heat more of a hit and run pokemon compared to Wash), absorbs two statuses and can inflict statuses to the opponent makes Heat good but not as good as Wash IMO.

Heat has 3 more resistances (can resist Fairy and make steel 1/4 resistant, which is sorta big....depending on your team) but 1 more weaknesses compared to Wash and one of the weaknesses is 4x (negated by Levi but still pretty bad). Not sure what else to say about Heat....similar movesets compared to wash but replace Hydro Pump with Overheat. Kinda feel Heat should be around the B range if not the borderline between B+/A. ._.
 
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