Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Triskili said:
(Sweet, I can use color texts (I know I used it before but not outside of quotes)....not sure if that's allowed but might as well mention it somewhere.... ^^;)

I agree to this. The fact that Rotom-H has a decent STAB (makes Heat more of a hit and run pokemon compared to Wash), absorbs two statuses and can inflict statuses to the opponent makes Heat good but not as good as Wash IMO.

Heat has 3 more resistances (can resist Fairy and make steel 1/4 resistant, which is sorta big....depending on your team) but 1 more weaknesses compared to Wash and one of the weaknesses is 4x (negated by Levi but still pretty bad). Not sure what else to say about Heat....similar movesets compared to wash but replace Hydro Pump with Overheat. Kinda feel Heat should be around the B range if not the borderline between B+/A. ._.
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He fills many of the same roles as his W counterpart, but that usually is why he does not get much use and why he is outclassed. The two both resist Talonflame, x4 resist Steel, both make great use of Levitate, and while Wash gets the less weakness typing, Heat gets the better over all typing with when factoring in all his additional resistances.

Sadly he will always be compared to Wash, and seeing how Wash is A+ rank, I believe B+ rank is highly suitable.
 
Triskili said:
(Sweet, I can use color texts (I know I used it before but not outside of quotes)....not sure if that's allowed but might as well mention it somewhere.... ^^;)

I agree to this. The fact that Rotom-H has a decent STAB (makes Heat more of a hit and run pokemon compared to Wash), absorbs two statuses and can inflict statuses to the opponent makes Heat good but not as good as Wash IMO.

Heat has 3 more resistances (can resist Fairy and make steel 1/4 resistant, which is sorta big....depending on your team) but 1 more weaknesses compared to Wash and one of the weaknesses is 4x (negated by Levi but still pretty bad). Not sure what else to say about Heat....similar movesets compared to wash but replace Hydro Pump with Overheat. Kinda feel Heat should be around the B range if not the borderline between B+/A. ._.
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Regarding the 4x Ground weakness, obviously Levitate alleviates that, but it's worth looking into how each Appliance deals with Mold Breakers, namely Mega Gyarados and Excadrill.

  • Mega Gyarados- Neither one is particularly suited to taking on Mega Gyarados (unless it tries to stay in base form, in which case the Mold Breaker part isn't in effect.) However, Mega Gyarados only has a 6.3% chance to OHKO Rotom-W with EQ if it has a 252 HP/ 0 Def spread. Rotom-H can never avoid the OHKO, and has a harder time switching in due to weakness to Waterfall. All bets are off if Gyarados gets a Dragon Dance though.
  • Excadrill- Again, there's nothing Rotom-H can do to avoid being OHKO'd by EQ. Rotom-W can just barely manage to avoid the OHKO with a Bold Nature and 252 HP/ 252 Def. Both can OHKO standard Excadrill with their STAB's though, and Overheat is more accurate, so it has a slight, if totally ignorable, edge there.
Unless you count regular Pinsir (which I don't,) those are the only two Pokemon that'll get past Rotom-H with Earthquakes, but they're both really important.
 
But Rotom W needs to be at full health to avoid the OHKO from those earthquakes, and stealth rock damage alone pretty much makes it so that, in practice, is getting OHKOed over 90% of the time.
 
T-Bolt said:
While it's true that Mega-Charizard Y is incredibly powerful, there are a few flaws that don't make it A+ rank material IMO.

- Crippling 4x stealth rock weakness. Even with Defog being used commonly, SR is still a hazard you see in nearly every game, even your calcs take SR into account. Charizard can't switch in more than twice, and using roost means you lose a moveslot of valuable coverage.

- Drought only lasts for 5 turns. While Fire blast/Solar beam does do more than 50% to several special tanks and walls, most of these Pokemon (like Sylveon) can stall out the turns of sun without fainting using recovery moves or protect. This kinda reduces Mega-Charizard's viability as a wall breaker.
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Stealth Rock was only included into the calculations to ensure certain KOs. Keep in mind that as a wall-breaker Mega Charizard Y is not required to KO the opposing defensive Pokemon 100% of the time. Just weaken them severely to the point where a sweeper can easily brush past them. And if you look at the calculations, the Pokemon are usually dented more than enough. The only one that probably matters is Rotom-Wash and Latias switching in on Fire Blast ; but then again, Mega Charizard Y has the appropriate coverage moves to finish them off while they fail to KO Mega Charizard Y.
The fact that Drought only lasts for 5 Turns is not something that lowers his viability in the slightest. If the opposing player is forced to play a Protect game with Mega Charizard Y to avoid certain KOs, then Mega Charizard Y is doing a phenomenal job of applying pressure and giving free-switch ins to other teammates.

Gennosuke Fujiki said:
Prediction shouldn't be an argument, as it goes for both sides.
As for wallbreakers, they are not sweepers. Their role is to break down walls. ZardY does that to great extent, I mean his coverage moves are stronger than Scarf Kyogre's coverage moves. So, basically, there's so few things that can reliably switch in on it that it's not even funny.
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If the Sylveon player is always forced into a Protect scenario in order to avoid a straight-up 2HKO, this gives the Mega Charizard Y player an essential free-switch opportunity, which is actually a detriment for the Sylveon player.
Now this whole argument can be swayed here and there by speaking of prediction, but as Gennosuke Fujiki stated, prediction should not be the basis of viability.
Mega Venusaur is not even a solid answer for Mega Charizard Y as 90% of the time, the Zard Y player will be clicking Fire Blast. (As calculations can show, Fire resistance means almost nothing for many Pokemon when it comes to switching in on Y's Fire Blast).
 
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I honestly think Zapdos should be B+ rank. He is easily as viable if not more so than the likes of Goodra. Capable of easily walling and beating a plethora of extremely common sets such as mixed Aegislash, most Genesect, Heatran, Deoxys-S, Special Mega Lucario and non-Ice Punch physical Lucario, most Latias, Gengar, Scizor, Skarmory etc etc. Against all of these Pokemon, Zapdos can either Toxic stall them, Power Point stall them, or simply KO them with Thunderbolt or Heat Wave.
 
Chompx29 said:
I honestly think Zapdos should be B+ rank. He is easily as viable if not more so than the likes of Goodra. Capable of easily walling and beating a plethora of extremely common sets such as mixed Aegislash, most Genesect, Heatran, Deoxys-S, Special Mega Lucario and non-Ice Punch physical Lucario, most Latias, Gengar, Scizor, Skarmory etc etc. Against all of these Pokemon, Zapdos can either Toxic stall them, Power Point stall them, or simply KO them with Thunderbolt or Heat Wave.
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Not to also mention it's one of the best Defoggers in the tier right now, though from the stuff Zapdos can do, it sounds more of an A- Pokemon.
 
Chompx29 said:
I honestly think Zapdos should be B+ rank. He is easily as viable if not more so than the likes of Goodra. Capable of easily walling and beating a plethora of extremely common sets such as mixed Aegislash, most Genesect, Heatran, Deoxys-S, Special Mega Lucario and non-Ice Punch physical Lucario, most Latias, Gengar, Scizor, Skarmory etc etc. Against all of these Pokemon, Zapdos can either Toxic stall them, Power Point stall them, or simply KO them with Thunderbolt or Heat Wave.
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Zapdos can't wall about half the pokemon you listed. Aegislash can set up on zapdos if it has shadow claw, while zapdos can't poison it and thunderbolt does very little. Even if it doesn't have shadow claw, zapdos isn't going to be applying much pressure at all, and aegislash can easily switch out. Zapdos can do nothing to specially defensive heatran (the most common set), while heatran can use toxic on it. Zapdos also struggles against genesect if it has a SpA boost and ice beam. Physical Lucario can 2HKO with close combat after stealth rock. And that's with no boosts. If its +2 you can forget about it. Even without stealth rock, any previous damage will ensure a 2HKO.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 163-192 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'd say Zapdos biggest problem as a wall, is that it applies very little pressure on the other team and there are tons of pokemon that can safely switch in. Even against the pokemon it can wall, it often can't do anything back. It's decent as a defogger, but outside that, it really isn't all that useful. Because of all this, I think Zapdos should remain in B.
 
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rachet67 said:
Zapdos can't wall about half the pokemon you listed. Aegislash can set up on zapdos if it has shadow claw, while zapdos can't poison it and thunderbolt does very little. Even if it doesn't have shadow claw, zapdos isn't going to be applying much pressure at all, and aegislash can easily switch out. Zapdos can do nothing to specially defensive heatran (the most common set), while heatran can use toxic on it. Zapdos also struggles against genesect if it has a SpA boost and ice beam. Physical Lucario can 2HKO with close combat after stealth rock. And that's with no boosts. If its +2 you can forget about it. Even without stealth rock, any previous damage will ensure a 2HKO.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 163-192 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'd say Zapdos biggest problem as a wall, is that it applies very little pressure on the other team and there are tons of pokemon that can safely switch in. Even against the pokemon it can wall, it often can't do anything back. It's decent as a defogger, but outside that, it really isn't all that useful. Because of all this, I think Zapdos should remain in B.
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Zapdos gets Heat Wave, which it should always be using. Also, Aegislash + Shadow Claw is awful, and hardly used, if at all. Aegislash already has 4MSS, and trying to use Shadow Claw just makes that problem even worse. SD Aegislash is probably the easiest version of Aegislash, anyway, and can easily be eliminated with bulky ground-types which are huge Zapdos partners, including Hippowdon, Landorus-T and Gliscor.

Zapdos is also one of the best counters to Mega Lucario in the tier, I am surprised many people aren't using this fact when pushing for its viability to be raised.

I also agree with Primary when regarding Mega Charizard Y. Charizard Y is not a support pokemon like Ninetails is, which is exactly why Drought only lasting 5 turns should never be an argument against its viability. Charizard uses Drought for itself and its wall-breaking capabilities, much like most Kyogre in Ubers. Charizard is not a sweeper, it's a wall-breaker, as Primary sated perfectly. This means it doesn't have to OHKO walls, it just has to dent them enough as to where a sweeper like Lucario, Talonflame, Landorus, or what have you can push past their checks/counters and get you the win.

EDIT: I also feel like Manaphy should be much higher than it currently is, but I do not have enough experience with it to make a solid argument as to why. Hopefully someone else can argue this for me?

EDIT 2: Also, how is Galvantula on the list and not Smeargle? Smeargle should either be B or B+, as it's far superior to Galvantula. Smeargle can magic Coat, parting Shot, which I enjoy using so much, Spore, lay down any hazard your team needs, and many more stuff. It's definitely not the best pokemon for these roles, however, it is the best Sticky Web user in the current metagame.
 
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Adam Lambert said:
Zapdos gets Heat Wave, which it should always be using. Also, Aegislash + Shadow Claw is awful, and hardly used, if at all. Aegislash already has 4MSS, and trying to use Shadow Claw just makes that problem even worse. SD Aegislash is probably the easiest version of Aegislash, anyway, and can easily be eliminated with bulky ground-types which are huge Zapdos partners, including Hippowdon, Landorus-T and Gliscor.

Zapdos is also one of the best counters to Mega Lucario in the tier, I am surprised many people aren't using this fact when pushing for its viability to be raised.

I also agree with Primary when regarding Mega Charizard Y. Charizard Y is not a support pokemon like Ninetails is, which is exactly why Drought only lasting 5 turns should never be an argument against its viability. Charizard uses Drought for itself and its wall-breaking capabilities, much like most Kyogre in Ubers. Charizard is not a sweeper, it's a wall-breaker, as Primary sated perfectly. This means it doesn't have to OHKO walls, it just has to dent them enough as to where a sweeper like Lucario, Talonflame, Landorus, or what have you can push past their checks/counters and get you the win.

EDIT: I also feel like Manaphy should be much higher than it currently is, but I do not have enough experience with it to make a solid argument as to why. Hopefully someone else can argue this for me?

EDIT 2: Also, how is Galvantula on the list and not Smeargle? Smeargle should either be B or B+, as it's far superior to Galvantula. Smeargle can magic Coat, parting Shot, which I enjoy using so much, Spore, lay down any hazard your team needs, and many more stuff. It's definitely not the best pokemon for these roles, however, it is the best Sticky Web user in the current metagame.
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SD aegislash is not the best set, regardless of whether it's the easiest (it's not). Mixed Pivot is by far the best, but Zapdos beats it pretty effectively too:
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 164-192 (42.8 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You can switch in with rocks and either roost or heat wave for the KO. Not a hard wall, but zapdos still wins.

Manaphy is in A+, so it can't get much higher. I doubt that it's strong enough to go to S-tier, which is only tier left above it.

Galvantula's main selling point over smeargle is its awesome 108 base speed along with a reasonable 98 special attack. Because of these traits it can set up sticky web ahead of almost every taunter (crobat is irrelevant because it can just defog anyway), and actually be a little threatening with its reasonable attacking power paired with a 97% accuracy 120 BP thunder. Smeargle, on the other hand, will set up sticky web, maybe sleep something, and that's it. Smeargle has enough options to be in C or C-, but that's really all it can do.
 
Adam Lambert said:
Zapdos gets Heat Wave, which it should always be using. Also, Aegislash + Shadow Claw is awful, and hardly used, if at all. Aegislash already has 4MSS, and trying to use Shadow Claw just makes that problem even worse. SD Aegislash is probably the easiest version of Aegislash, anyway, and can easily be eliminated with bulky ground-types which are huge Zapdos partners, including Hippowdon, Landorus-T and Gliscor.

Zapdos is also one of the best counters to Mega Lucario in the tier, I am surprised many people aren't using this fact when pushing for its viability to be raised.

I also agree with Primary when regarding Mega Charizard Y. Charizard Y is not a support pokemon like Ninetails is, which is exactly why Drought only lasting 5 turns should never be an argument against its viability. Charizard uses Drought for itself and its wall-breaking capabilities, much like most Kyogre in Ubers. Charizard is not a sweeper, it's a wall-breaker, as Primary sated perfectly. This means it doesn't have to OHKO walls, it just has to dent them enough as to where a sweeper like Lucario, Talonflame, Landorus, or what have you can push past their checks/counters and get you the win.

EDIT: I also feel like Manaphy should be much higher than it currently is, but I do not have enough experience with it to make a solid argument as to why. Hopefully someone else can argue this for me?

EDIT 2: Also, how is Galvantula on the list and not Smeargle? Smeargle should either be B or B+, as it's far superior to Galvantula. Smeargle can magic Coat, parting Shot, which I enjoy using so much, Spore, lay down any hazard your team needs, and many more stuff. It's definitely not the best pokemon for these roles, however, it is the best Sticky Web user in the current metagame.
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It's hardly a counter to most physical versions especially with Ice Punch being a thing. I'll give you that Zapdos is a decent check, but that is it.
 
Adam Lambert said:
Also, how is Galvantula on the list and not Smeargle? Smeargle should either be B or B+, as it's far superior to Galvantula. Smeargle can magic Coat, parting Shot, which I enjoy using so much, Spore, lay down any hazard your team needs, and many more stuff. It's definitely not the best pokemon for these roles, however, it is the best Sticky Web user in the current metagame.
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Smeargle is C+ at best. Yeah, it can use any move in the game, but it only has 4 slots; you can't run magic coat, parting shot, sr, sticky web, spore, etc. all in one set. The spore nerf and defog buff did not help Smeargle at all.
 
Look at the first page for the rankings. Also, he made a typo. He meant easiest aegislash to shut down.

It isn't used as a selling point because Zapdos is a shaky counter, much like half of the things that supposedly counter mega lucario. Moltres works if it isn't running the physical set. Zapdos works if it isn't running stone edge (which isn't that uncommon). Gliscor works if it isn't running ice punch. Even aegislash works...if it isn't running crunch / dark pulse. Even if a lot of lucario were unprepared to deal with Zapdos as a counter somehow, they'd just adapt if it ever became popular and make it invalid. Kind of like what happened to jolly azumarill users thinking they could outspeed rotom-W.

Smeargle usually doesn't do much against decent teams but I don't want to talk too much about him right now. Sticky web usually isn't good enough to warrant a team slot and the spore nerf hurt him a lot more than it did breloom or amoongus. In a generation where priority is more popular than ever, his defenses mean that he's probably doing nothing before he dies unless you still have your sash.
 
I'd say C+ for Smeargle. When you use sets that aren't "suicide hazard setter lead" or "spore+smashpass" it catches people completely off-guard, I found a scarf set running Spore/Foul Play/Destiny Bond/Parting Shot in particular to be surprisingly effective. At the end of the day that endless movepool is still stuck on Smeargle's stats, though.

EDIT: I'm amazed King's Shield didn't even show up in Smeargle's usage stats. That won me a ton of free passes using Smeargle in-game.
 
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rachet67 said:
Zapdos can't wall about half the pokemon you listed. Aegislash can set up on zapdos if it has shadow claw, while zapdos can't poison it and thunderbolt does very little. Even if it doesn't have shadow claw, zapdos isn't going to be applying much pressure at all, and aegislash can easily switch out. Zapdos can do nothing to specially defensive heatran (the most common set), while heatran can use toxic on it. Zapdos also struggles against genesect if it has a SpA boost and ice beam. Physical Lucario can 2HKO with close combat after stealth rock. And that's with no boosts. If its +2 you can forget about it. Even without stealth rock, any previous damage will ensure a 2HKO.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 163-192 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'd say Zapdos biggest problem as a wall, is that it applies very little pressure on the other team and there are tons of pokemon that can safely switch in. Even against the pokemon it can wall, it often can't do anything back. It's decent as a defogger, but outside that, it really isn't all that useful. Because of all this, I think Zapdos should remain in B.
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I dont think you guys are really considering Zapdos in the right way. I mean, firstly I dont think Zapdos is best suited as a defog wall, he has a ground immunity and 5 extra resistances too (including a resistance to u-turn), which gives him a lot of switch-in opportunities, as well as self-healing in roost. I think what we are looking at here is an offensive defog pivot, very similar to defog Scizor- 100 base speed, great 125 SpA, volt switch, as well as roost and heat wave is great for this, having the ability to scare out all the steel hazard setters with a powerful fire attack. Anyone like Scizor who intends to u-turn out of Zapdos' switch-in is risking paralysis with Static too (I wish he still got lightningrod for immunity to volt switch.... but static is good too i guess)

Zapdos has a rock weakness which is really disappointing as otherwise it would be truly great as a pivot, but having access to reliable recovery really helps alleviate this, especially with the switches it can force. I think ultimately he's still best around the B area, maybe B or B+ but as far as defog goes its definitely worth remembering all the chances he has to switch in on supportive/utility/pivot mons and kill enemy team's momentum due to static procs and volt switch of his own
 
530.png

Excadrill for A+ Rank!

  • Arguably the best Rapid Spinner due to its efficiency
  • Access to Stealth Rock ; not many Pokemon can boast of being able to set hazards and provide hazard control
  • Sky high base 135 Attack makes him an offensive threat
  • Two amazing abilities in Mold Breaker and Sand Rush
  • Boasts a great typing that provides an immunity to Poison and Electric Moves while having a plethora of resistances
  • Diversity is definitely capable of describing Excadrill. From Assault Vest to Choice Scarf, Excadrill is far from being short on options
  • Swords Dance allows Excadrill to break holes and sometimes sweep in rare scenarios
 
Pipotchi said:
I dont think you guys are really considering Zapdos in the right way. I mean, firstly I dont think Zapdos is best suited as a defog wall, he has a ground immunity and 5 extra resistances too (including a resistance to u-turn), which gives him a lot of switch-in opportunities, as well as self-healing in roost. I think what we are looking at here is an offensive defog pivot, very similar to defog Scizor- 100 base speed, great 125 SpA, volt switch, as well as roost and heat wave is great for this, having the ability to scare out all the steel hazard setters with a powerful fire attack. Anyone like Scizor who intends to u-turn out of Zapdos' switch-in is risking paralysis with Static too (I wish he still got lightningrod for immunity to volt switch.... but static is good too i guess)

Zapdos has a rock weakness which is really disappointing as otherwise it would be truly great as a pivot, but having access to reliable recovery really helps alleviate this, especially with the switches it can force. I think ultimately he's still best around the B area, maybe B or B+ but as far as defog goes its definitely worth remembering all the chances he has to switch in on supportive/utility/pivot mons and kill enemy team's momentum due to static procs and volt switch of his own
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While part of this is right, Zapdos has Pressure, not Static. While I can sort of agree, especially with the immunity to Sticky Web, the SR weakness hurts it.
 
rachet67 said:
Zapdos can't wall about half the pokemon you listed. Aegislash can set up on zapdos if it has shadow claw, while zapdos can't poison it and thunderbolt does very little. Even if it doesn't have shadow claw, zapdos isn't going to be applying much pressure at all, and aegislash can easily switch out. Zapdos can do nothing to specially defensive heatran (the most common set), while heatran can use toxic on it. Zapdos also struggles against genesect if it has a SpA boost and ice beam. Physical Lucario can 2HKO with close combat after stealth rock. And that's with no boosts. If its +2 you can forget about it. Even without stealth rock, any previous damage will ensure a 2HKO.

252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 163-192 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 240+ SpD Zapdos: 216-256 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'd say Zapdos biggest problem as a wall, is that it applies very little pressure on the other team and there are tons of pokemon that can safely switch in. Even against the pokemon it can wall, it often can't do anything back. It's decent as a defogger, but outside that, it really isn't all that useful. Because of all this, I think Zapdos should remain in B.
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First of all Zapdos gets Heat Wave meaning that neither Aegislash or Mega Lucario are safe. Secondly, SD Aegi is not only an inferior and less common set, but it is also horrible with Shadow Claw. Genesect will NEVER have a +spA boost because Zapdos is switching in and has higher spDef than Defense. What's your point again?
 
Salemance said:
He fills many of the same roles as his W counterpart, but that usually is why he does not get much use and why he is outclassed. The two both resist Talonflame, x4 resist Steel, both make great use of Levitate, and while Wash gets the less weakness typing, Heat gets the better over all typing with when factoring in all his additional resistances.

Sadly he will always be compared to Wash, and seeing how Wash is A+ rank, I believe B+ rank is highly suitable.
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Rotom-H technically is the more anti meta one of the two, being able to resist talonflames entire set inclusive of banded u turn. Other threats it can switch into which rotom w is shaky for include genesect, megazard y. It also takes on thundurus, ferrothorn, aegislash better than the latter.
 
escarlata said:
Rotom-H technically is the more anti meta one of the two, being able to resist talonflames entire set inclusive of banded u turn. Other threats it can switch into which rotom w is shaky for include genesect, megazard y. It also takes on thundurus, ferrothorn, aegislash better than the latter.
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I realize, but I was merely stating what I hear people say to justify them using Rotom-W over H. Rotom-H does a many great things, and anti-meta may be what it is.

EDIT: In retrospect I see the fault I had there as I did not begin to go further and say what H could do better over W. I should take that into account in the future for when I post again as it does not help just giving minimal details on the pokemon.
 
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