Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Kairyu_Gen1]

The fact that you have to play the 50/50 game with guessing what Charizard might Mega-Evolve into already fulfills one of the S-Rank requirements: Unpredictability and Versatility
Allowing a dangerous Pokemon like Mega Charizard to either set up a Dragon Dance or set up Drought safely is already a huge detriment for the opposing player. But that's not all. Once Charizard mega evolves, its respective Mega Evolutions demand different approaches. While specially defensive Pokemon are the go-to answers for a Mega Charizard Y, Mega Charizard X doesn't give anything about them.
Also Venusaur, Gyarados, Heracross and Garchomp? Sure they might play slightly different but the same Pokemon that beat their base forms can manage to beat their Mega Evolved form. Venusaur despite Thick Fat despises powerful STAB Fire-Type Moves and Ice Type Moves. Talonflame remains a deadly threat to Venusaur, mega-evolved or not. Gyarados does lose its 4x weakness to Electric Type moves but Rotom-W and bulky Water-Type Pokemon remain solid switch-ins into Gyarados. Rotom-W can either tank an Earthquake from Mega Gyarados and Volt Switch out and bring in a faster threatening Pokemon, such as Terrakion, or it can Volt Switch on the Mega Gyarados as it decides to Dragon Dance and bring in an appropriate answer, such as Ferrothorn. Heracross ... I don't see how it plays any differently. It still struggles to get past its usual answers such as Skarmory or Talonflame. Garchomp does hold some validity for S-Rank as physically Defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Ferrothorn will not appreciate Draco Meteor or Fire Blast respectively.

You can look at a team and say which charizard makes more sense on that team, since I'm right at least 90% of the time, I'd say that fails the unpredictable criteria. I spend most of my time in the low 2000s, people are smart enough to have well built, synergistic teams, but not smart enough to run something just for the surprise factor without giving up viability. I don't know if its a thing in the top of the top to run Y on a team that appears to be built around X, but I know its not anywhere else. If a team is running the Charizard that is less effective on their team, I look at it as a pleasant surprise, and while I often have to adjust my strategy, somebody using the less effective of 2 pokemon is never a bad thing in my mind.

Talonflame's a threat to every grass type, without exception. Venusaur can run a tanking or stall set similar to its mega, but the only thing I've seen it do is use Chlorophyll to gain momentum on a sun team. That role is something that is worth a rating, but if you were to rank Venusaur and Mega Venusaur together, nobody would even mention it because its so overshadowed by its mega.

Gyarados and Mega Gyarados have totally different checks. Bulky water types can reliably be used, but the mega can take electric and rock hits way better, while the regular takes bug, fairy, and fighting type moves better. This is the one I'm usually wrong predicting because they're both viable, and while you can't usually tell from team preview if its gonna mega evolve, you have to treat them very differently, so you should rank them differently. They fill different roles on a team. (Also, Rotom tanking an EQ? That is not something Rotom can afford to do at the best of times, and often its enough remove Rotom from the match. Just check the calcs)

Heracross attempts to sweep, mega Heracross wall breaks. They have similar checks, but are viable for totally different reasons.

Garchomp similar "problems". The regular is fast and strong, great for sweeping and revenge killing. The mega is not fast, but much stronger, great for wall breaking and tanking. They fill totally different roles on a team

 

[Primary]

I spend more of my time in the 2300s as well so I speak from experience, especially considering the fact that I have utilized both Mega Charizard X and Y extensively.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it but could you please expand on how X requires support so different from Y that one is able to determine what variant it is from Team Preview?
And correct if I'm wrong but I don't think you understood my main point:
Let's assume the Charizard player has brought in a Charizard successfully onto the field through either death foddering or pivoting. The opposing player is now in a certain predicament. Will the following Mega Evolution be X or Y? If one guesses incorrectly, one could potentially allow a Mega Charizard X to Dragon Dance freely or allow a Mega Charizard Y to nuke something with Fire Blast. Now this scenario is grossly over-simplified but the mind-games one can play around with Charizard are unprecedented when it comes to the Mega Evolutions.

Also Garchomp and Heracross, while they may do separate roles, can be handled in much the same manner. Same goes for Venusaur.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I spend more of my time in the 2300s as well so I speak from experience, especially considering the fact that I have utilized both Mega Charizard X and Y extensively.
Maybe I'm just not seeing it but could you please expand on how X requires support so different from Y that one is able to determine what variant it is from Team Preview?
And correct if I'm wrong but I don't think you understood my main point:
Let's assume the Charizard player has brought in a Charizard successfully onto the field through either death foddering or pivoting. The opposing player is now in a certain predicament. Will the following Mega Evolution be X or Y? If one guesses incorrectly, one could potentially allow a Mega Charizard X to Dragon Dance freely or allow a Mega Charizard Y to nuke something with Fire Blast. Now this scenario is grossly over-simplified but the mind-games one can play around with Charizard are unprecedented when it comes to the Mega Evolutions.

Also Garchomp and Heracross, while they may do separate roles, can be handled in much the same manner. Same goes for Venusaur.

Obviously if there's a sun abuser on the team, you can increase the chance for Y. Neither are bulky enough to be part of a bulky offense team, so if you see one on a team like that, you can look for if it needs a physical sweeper or a wall breaker more. If you see checks for Heatran and Azumarill, then its more likely to be X (yes Y wants support for Heatran, but he's more about supporting the team than being supported). Most teams are about balance and versatility to cover the most number of threats. If you can't look at a team and at least guess what charizard fits in better, then I have trouble believing you're in the 2300s.

Anyway, if I misunderstood your main point, you definitely misunderstood mine. Since this thread is about ranking pokemon by their viability, and the mega's viability is drastically different from its base form, we need to rank them differently because we need to understand the base form's viability since they need to be understood if the mega slot is already taken. Rating them separately is just more useful to the team building process, even if it is less useful to the battling process (which I've supplied arguments suggesting it isn't, at least at the level where viability is a major factor in your opponents).

 

[effyouzion]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was trying to make a point for all viable sets Suicune could've run last generation. The specific set I was referring to was Suicune's CM + 3 Attacks set, which draws comparison to Tail Glow Manaphy in that both are boosting sweepers. I'm sorry if my statement was not clear earlier.

Regarding Resttalk, Manaphy has no business dealing with CroCune, as they are both fundamentally different Pokemon in the defensive aspect of things. What I wanted to point out is that it's best set, Crocune, is getting more and more unreliable each generation. RestTalk has always been a shaky strategy and becomes even more so with the increase of offensive pressure in the metagame. When asleep, Suicune has a 33% chance of attacking, which means if its against a wallbreaker or sweeper, those two have a 66% chance of boosting and killing it or do massive damage on it. Suicune has come a long way since the slightly stally/defensive metagame, and I really think that the changes over time pretty much removed him from the running as a B Pokemon.

I know you were talking about CroCune, and I was too (I even mentioned that set by name a few times). Basically, Suicune can set up on anything that can't 3HKO him, which is a lot of things. Right now on the ladder you see a ton of teams that use Rotom-W as the only electric. Suicune can come in on something like Talonflame, force it out easily, and CM on the switch. An uninvested volt switch from Rotom does next to nothing after a CM (avg 25%), and Cune can keep boosting further. Now whatever switches in on the volt switch is going to face a +2 Suicune at no lower than 50% health after leftovers. There are very few things outside of the main physical megas (Pinsir, CharX, and Lucario) that want to face that monster. And if they do have one of those things that can hurt you? Scald the switch in. A +1 scald, even uninvested, is nothing to laugh at, especially since all of those megas have low special defense and are completely ruined by the 30% burn chance. Other attackers that threaten to 3HKO Cune, like Thundurus and CB Terrakion, are pretty fragile themselves or even weak to water in Terrakion's case.

IMO, Cune is at least as useful as Bisharp, a mon who also has huge sweeping potential but can't even touch the most threatening poke in the game right now (Lucario). The mons Cune can't touch are things like offensive Gyarados and Ferrothorn, who are pretty rare right now, and even those pokes are ruined by the burn chance from scald. Bisharp is A rank. I think Suicune should be too.

 

[Punchshroom]

The way I see with Suicune, the problem is not so much itself, but that it has Manaphy to compete with. Yes, CroCune has greater overall bulk, but "CroManaphy" has the option of HydraRest, which not only gives it the same invulnerability to status, but also boosts its Scald and it doesn't have to deal with Sleep Talk's unreliability. Manaphy's speed tier also helps against dudes like Rotom-W and Landorus-T that Suicune cannot outspeed, and obviously Manaphy far outshines Suicune in an offensive role. So Suicune already faces potential competition with Manaphy while using its best set? Now I'm not saying Suicune is bad, but you can see the thin line between "competing with" and "outclassed by" here. B+ is the highest rank I'd expect to see Suicune.

 

[Tava]

^ 100% agree that Manaphy does CroCune at least just as well as Suicune does at the moment. HydraRest combo is clearly not as strong as it once was (takes a turn to set up now/a move slot on manaphy) but it removes the random factor that you have to deal with when running Sleep Talk. Manaphy also has higher sp att/speed than Suicune, but that comes with noticable less bulk in general.

tl;dr : Suicune vs Manaphy is based on preference.

 

[effyouzion]

The way I see with Suicune, the problem is not so much itself, but that it has Manaphy to compete with. Yes, CroCune has greater overall bulk, but "CroManaphy" has the option of HydraRest, which not only gives it the same invulnerability to status, but also boosts its Scald and it doesn't have to deal with Sleep Talk's unreliability. Manaphy's speed tier also helps against dudes like Rotom-W and Landorus-T that Suicune cannot outspeed, and obviously Manaphy far outshines Suicune in an offensive role. So Suicune already faces potential competition with Manaphy while using its best set? Now I'm not saying Suicune is bad, but you can see the thin line between "competing with" and "outclassed by" here. B+ is the highest rank I'd expect to see Suicune.

Hydra rest is shit because you need to have rain up before you can rest. It's also easily exploitable and can be punished by Tyranitar and CharY, 2 mons that Suicune can easily beat with rest talk and superior defenses. This is ignoring the fact that Manaphy's defenses are both noticeably weaker than Cune's (100/100 vs. 115/115). As far as speed goes, under speeding Rotom-W, for example, is a benefit in Suicune's favor. Almost all Rotoms use volt switch as their only electric move, and under speeding that volt switch lets you scald any switch ins.

There's also the advantage of pressure. Pressure lets you outstall moves like mixed KyuB's uninvested fusion bolt (does 48% max to Suicune, can rest after first 2 uses and survive the next 2 with about 20% health), while Manaphy would always be forced out.

 

[DaiGuren]

You guys forget Suicune's ability to PP stall though, it's still something that Suicune does that Manaphy can't. This is what allows CroCune to win against Mega-Venu and other walls.

 

[SansNickel]

CroCune is severely underrated, but it might be because nobody prepares for it in the metagame. Suicune has better bulk, and pressure is what is really good, allowing it to stall out thunderbolts and giga drains. Suicune doesn't need to outspeed rotom (Volt switch does shat when Suicune has 1 CM) nor landorus-T. If people were running a really bulky manaphy it wouldn't be outspeeding much without investment anyway. I've run CroCune on my pressure team and it's at least decent, hitting 2180 in OU. Bulky suicune is good for a similar reason Rotom-W is good -- many teams carry powerful electric/grass attacks. I'd give it a solid B.

Here's a replay: it's not that good of an example as I just had one match since ladder reset lol but nonetheless it shows how it's effective in the metagame:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-77797141

 

[Punchshroom]

Hydra rest is shit because you need to have rain up before you can rest. It's also easily exploitable and can be punished by Tyranitar and CharY, 2 mons that Suicune can easily beat with rest talk and superior defenses. This is ignoring the fact that Manaphy's defenses are both noticeably weaker than Cune's (100/100 vs. 115/115). As far as speed goes, under speeding Rotom-W, for example, is a benefit in Suicune's favor. Almost all Rotoms use volt switch as their only electric move, and under speeding that volt switch lets you scald any switch ins.

There's also the advantage of pressure. Pressure lets you outstall moves like mixed KyuB's uninvested fusion bolt (does 48% max to Suicune, can rest after first 2 uses and survive the next 2 with about 20% health), while Manaphy would always be forced out.

Highlighting option isn't enough for you? What I meant is that Manaphy has 2 methods of full-healing; you can still use RestTalk Manaphy. While HydraRest can be exploited, it's not like Tyranitar and YZard are risk-free switch-ins, since boosted Scalds can still sting even under their respective weather, and what can they do if Manaphy Rain Dances (again) on the switch?

Underspeeding the Volt Switch lets you Scald switch-ins, while outspeeding the Volt Switch lets you Calm Mind to weaken it. It's up to personal preference here.

I won't deny Pressure being a selling point for Suicune (though using a faster Pokemon that can 3HKO Suicune isn't quite the best example, seeing as it will KO Cune before it wakes up). That said:

0 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 150-178 (37.12 - 44.05%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO

What you calced for Suicune was an Adamant Kyurem-B with 0 Attack EVs, which doesn't exist. Both Manaphy and Suicune avoid a 2HKO from 0 Atk Kyu-B, but both get totalled by any physical variant of Kyu-B.

Pressure is nice for Suicune, but Hydration can be just as good an advantage, allowing Manaphy to rack up boosts more efficiently rather than hoping Suicune selects the right move in its sleep while not getting critted into dangerously low amounts of health.

 

[Rotosect]

You can look at a team and say which charizard makes more sense on that team, since I'm right at least 90% of the time, I'd say that fails the unpredictable criteria.

This.
I would like to point out that this site has an article about guessing Arceus' formes from team preview: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue26/arceus_formes
Keep in mind that Arceus is no longer an S-rank pokemon.

Now, if it's possible to make an educate guess about a pokemon with 18 different formes and be right most of the time, it shouldn't be too hard to do so with a pokemon with just two formes, especially when you consider that each of them only plays one distinct role (physical sweepers vs special attacker).

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Obviously if there's a sun abuser on the team, you can increase the chance for Y. Neither are bulky enough to be part of a bulky offense team, so if you see one on a team like that, you can look for if it needs a physical sweeper or a wall breaker more. If you see checks for Heatran and Azumarill, then its more likely to be X (yes Y wants support for Heatran, but he's more about supporting the team than being supported). Most teams are about balance and versatility to cover the most number of threats. If you can't look at a team and at least guess what charizard fits in better, then I have trouble believing you're in the 2300s.

I usually play in the 2.6ks, myself. The only way I can safely determine what Char it is, is by checking if he switches in on my ZardY. You can guess, yes, but I really do not enjoy playing that guessing game. One could even adjust the team to throw you off, whilst still remaining effective (which is basically what I did with my team), so I'm sorry.. you're still in a guessing game. The thing about Zard is that the team support required is incredibly similar on both Megas, being Defog... and that's really it. Xard can break down his main checks with EQ/TPunch respectively, Yard doesn't even need to kill his targets and can run Mix to break down the Three that can switch in on it.

CharY really doesn't need help with Heatran...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-264 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (This is with 0 Attack IVs)

Anyway, if I misunderstood your main point, you definitely misunderstood mine. Since this thread is about ranking pokemon by their viability, and the mega's viability is drastically different from its base form, we need to rank them differently because we need to understand the base form's viability since they need to be understood if the mega slot is already taken. Rating them separately is just more useful to the team building process, even if it is less useful to the battling process (which I've supplied arguments suggesting it isn't, at least at the level where viability is a major factor in your opponents).

I like to look at it as if the Mega formes is simply a set to these pokemon. Sure, they play vastly different in most cases, but they cannot be used without the pokemon itself. I really do not see the issue either, considering how it is quite easy to guess which pokemon is holding the megastone on the opponents team, and from thereon you've basically guessed the pokemon's set. Some pokemon are viable due to their megas, but that is similar to Togekiss being viable due to receiving the Fairy typing. It's basically a new option for them that makes them OU viable.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

I usually play in the 2.6ks, myself. The only way I can safely determine what Char it is, is by checking if he switches in on my ZardY. You can guess, yes, but I really do not enjoy playing that guessing game. One could even adjust the team to throw you off, whilst still remaining effective (which is basically what I did with my team), so I'm sorry.. you're still in a guessing game. The thing about Zard is that the team support required is incredibly similar on both Megas, being Defog... and that's really it. Xard can break down his main checks with EQ/TPunch respectively, Yard doesn't even need to kill his targets and can run Mix to break down the Three that can switch in on it.

CharY really doesn't need help with Heatran...
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 210-248 (54.4 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-264 (58 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (This is with 0 Attack IVs)



I like to look at it as if the Mega formes is simply a set to these pokemon. Sure, they play vastly different in most cases, but they cannot be used without the pokemon itself. I really do not see the issue either, considering how it is quite easy to guess which pokemon is holding the megastone on the opponents team, and from thereon you've basically guessed the pokemon's set. Some pokemon are viable due to their megas, but that is similar to Togekiss being viable due to receiving the Fairy typing. It's basically a new option for them that makes them OU viable.

Can't really tell if you're for or against ranking megas with the bases, so I'll just respond to points and try to keep this neutral.

Since my highest account is barely in the 2500s (last I checked, that was way back when I actually cared about Showdown other than to test new sets and teams without having to breed them), I don't know about higher ranks, but there are very few teams that I've seen that can effectively run either Charizard. Its possible that misdirection could become part of Charizard's strategy, but at this point of the metagame, I have not seen anyone effectively pull it off. A few months down the line I could be proven wrong though. While the support for Charizard is pretty similar (from my use of Y, I always liked to remove Heatran before bringing him in. I just hated having to worry about him switching in on a fire blast and wasting a turn of drought), the support they give is drastically different, and by identifying which would aid a team more, its pretty easy to predict which one it is. Since I'm not the only one confident in my ability to guess an opponent's mega before a match, I think we can consider it at most versatile, but not unpredictable.

As for the Togekiss comment, since there's no instance where you CAN run normal Togekiss, but there's plenty of instances where you can, and maybe even have to run the base form for megas, we need to identify the base forms' viability if it can't MEvolve.

 

[Punchshroom]

My thoughts on Mega rankings:

long ass post

I believe Megas should be ranked separately, but only if their base forms are eligible in OU and possess very distinct playstyles from their Megas.

If the Mega directly outclasses its base form at its main role(s) or their base form is simply not good enough for OU, such as Aerodactyl, Pinsir, Blastoise, Charizard, Ampharos, Houndoom, Heracross (possibly), Mawile, Aggron, Medicham, Manectric, Banette, Absol and Abomasnow, then only their Megas show up on the list, duh.

Now for the tricky part, Pokemon whose base forms can / do see use in OU: the ones I haven't mentioned so far are Venusaur, Alakazam, Gyarados, Scizor, Tyranitar, Gardevoir, Garchomp, and Lucario. We'll have to assess whether the Mega can replicate / improve their base form's role to the point where they'd otherwise outclass it, or perform a different enough niche to be warranted a separate ranking.
- Mega Lucario eclipses Lucario so hard it's not even funny, and it's not like regular Lucario is a small threat either. We obviously prepare for the bigger threat that is Mega Luke, so Luke is excluded from the rankings.

- Mega Alakazam is now a super fast, super powerful sweeper, but losing Magic Guard means it cannot perform its original niche as a 'panic button' or 'catch-all revenge killer'; now Alakazam is just your straightforward special sweeper that hopefully picks up a good ability for use when sweeping. I feel this is probably different enough to separate Alakazam from its Mega.

- Mega Garchomp loses speed in favor for greater offensive power on both ends (plus Sand Force). This means the amount of favorable matchups doesn't increase (like most other Megas), but they definitely do change. Swords Dance MegaChomp I feel doesn't really have any better matchups compared to what regular Chomp had, but its mixed wallbreaker set now has the power to crack open former obstacles, that are physical walls, without the need to boost, essentially replacing ChainChomp from previous generations. This I feel may also be enough to warrant separate ranks.

- Mega Gyarados has an easier time to sweeping due to Mold Breaker nullifying such abilities as Levitate, Storm Drain, Thick Fat, and Unaware. Regular Gyarados has an easier time setting up due to its defensive typing, and can also wall certain threats with said typing as well. Apparently the differences were already recognized, since regular Gyara and Mega Gyara are side by side in ranking.

- Mega Venusaur is the beast we all know and love / hate. Regular Venusaur has no chance at performing the support role now without being horribly overshadowed, but its Chlorophyll niche still hasn't been occupied by other sweepers. The Sun nerf will definitely bring it down though, and the Hidden Power nerf doesn't help either. Despite Chlorophyll Venusaur not being 'outclassed', it might just not be good enough anymore.

- Mega Gardevoir has frightening power with Pixilate, Calm Mind, and good coverage moves, so she can wallbreak with powerful Fairy attacks, thus providing a niche. Regular Gardevoir can don a Scarf to outspeed the many targets MegaVoir just wishes she could outspeed and blast them with Fairy moves, providing a fast Fairy attack as opposed to MegaVoir's powerful one, and it can Trick unlike MegaVoir. They could also see a difference in rank, even if it won't be too high.

- Now this is the trickiest one in my eyes: Tyranitar and Scizor. The Mega forms are the ones struggling to prove themselves to be better than their base forms with alternative held items, instead of the other way around: either Scizor or Tyranitar likes Leftovers, Assault Vest (for Tyranitar), or Choice Band which make them more specialized in their roles.
--- Currently the only Mega Tyranitar set that is inherently better than Tyranitar is Dragon Dance (which is still a very potent threat), but anything else is probably better off left to regular TTar. Mega Scizor gains a very negligible Attack boost such that its Bullet Punch is outdamaged by even Iron Plate Scizor's Bullet Punch (for those wanting a stronger Bullet Punch without being Choice-locked), and Mega Scizor's Special Defense increase is mitigated by regular Scizor's Leftovers, so often you still don't have to resort to Scizorite. Mega-Scizor's best bet would be to employ Roost and / or Swords Dance into its moveset to make use of its buffed Defense, which would result in a Mega that is substantially easier to wall than its regular counterpart.

Mega Tyranitar may deserve a different ranking from its counterpart despite the predictability (since it plays differently), but I don't know about Scizor: it's about the only Pokemon whose Mega form seems less threatening than its base form.

C+

Diggersby:
Gourgeist-Small:
Salamance:

ginganinja pls

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Can't really tell if you're for or against ranking megas with the bases, so I'll just respond to points and try to keep this neutral.

I'm with either, it's not important to me.

Since my highest account is barely in the 2500s (last I checked, that was way back when I actually cared about Showdown other than to test new sets and teams without having to breed them), I don't know about higher ranks, but there are very few teams that I've seen that can effectively run either Charizard. Its possible that misdirection could become part of Charizard's strategy, but at this point of the metagame, I have not seen anyone effectively pull it off. A few months down the line I could be proven wrong though. While the support for Charizard is pretty similar (from my use of Y, I always liked to remove Heatran before bringing him in. I just hated having to worry about him switching in on a fire blast and wasting a turn of drought), the support they give is drastically different, and by identifying which would aid a team more, its pretty easy to predict which one it is. Since I'm not the only one confident in my ability to guess an opponent's mega before a match, I think we can consider it at most versatile, but not unpredictable.

It's possible to guess, it is however also possible it thoroughly backfires.

As for the Togekiss comment, since there's no instance where you CAN run normal Togekiss, but there's plenty of instances where you can, and maybe even have to run the base form for megas, we need to identify the base forms' viability if it can't MEvolve.

It was an example on how a change can turn them OU viable.
If Yanmega got Tail Glow, it'd be more or less the same as if it got a Mega form.

 

[Pipotchi]

If we're seriously considering moving Charizard up to S, then I'm gonna propose Dragonite for A+. From my personal use, Dragonite's only 3 flaws are reliance on Defog or Rapid Spin, huge weakness to ice, and its crippled by any of the major statuses. If Charizard reaches S, then we clearly don't care about SR enough to let it affect ranking, the only ice types that I really care about are Mamoswine to revenge kill it, and Greninja to OHKO through multiscale (also Cloyster if it runs a sash, but I don't see much of those, and they're pretty easy to take care of otherwise), and status isn't as much as a problem as other physical attackers because Lum berry sets are still out there. Besides, other A+ pokes (I'm specifically referring to Mega Pinsir) have it arguably worse problems with status. There are of course arguments against that, but there are plenty of arguments against Charizard for S. Think about it.

Yea but the whole point of Dragonite is that he gains his bulk from being full hp, letting him dragon dance once while avoiding any chance of ohkos- then he can go off and smack people after his setup. He is severely hindered by multiscale getting broken and his niche is broken if he gets hit by stealth rock.
You can lose 50% of your health as Charizard X but you still have an almost forced switch for fear of a Charizard Y fire blast, as well as the benefit of completely changing your list of weaknesses and resistances, and possession of fantastic boosting, instant recovery and great mixed attacking stats. Charizard doesn't lose any of his scariness at 50% hp whereas Dragonite does.

Looking at trends for A+ pokemon, the main thing Im seeing is either huge unpredictability regarding which set will be used (and a large punishment for predicting incorrectly) or being so good at your job that being predictable is not an issue (eg. Talonflame, Pinsir). I dont think Dragonite reaches either one of these, he's good but all his sets are countered in the exact same way and with introduction of fairies its hard out there for a dragon. Landorus-T is in the exact same scenario, he's fantastic and is one of the best pivots in the game, but thats all he does. You can prepare for landorus-T by resisting edgequake, because even if he runs an offensive sweeping set or a pivot set with u-turn you ultimately just have to not be afraid of edgequake and you will be favourable against him.


Edit: I'm against Charizard X and Y being ranked together. Charizard X definitely benefits more from Charizard Y's existence than the other way round, since Char-Y encourages you to switch that turn into a defensive wall, which Charizard X absolutely loves as he can now roost, or dragon dance. If you predict Charizard X and it happens to be Y, then you most likely switched into a fairy type or a phaser perhaps. Fairies have the special defense to take a single hit from Charizard Y and a phaser will be able to do the same most likely, so less is gained for Y, even if he does manage to take out a single mon due to a bad switch. Char X can take out your whole team if you predict him wrongly.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Edit: I'm against Charizard X and Y being ranked together. Charizard X definitely benefits more from Charizard Y's existence than the other way round, since Char-Y encourages you to switch that turn into a defensive wall, which Charizard X absolutely loves as he can now roost, or dragon dance. If you predict Charizard X and it happens to be Y, then you most likely switched into a fairy type or a phaser perhaps. Fairies have the special defense to take a single hit from Charizard Y and a phaser will be able to do the same most likely, so less is gained for Y, even if he does manage to take out a single mon due to a bad switch. Char X can take out your whole team if you predict him wrongly.

They play different roles. One is a sweeper, the other is a supporter for a sweeper.

 

[Pipotchi]

They play different roles. One is a sweeper, the other is a supporter for a sweeper.

Thats true, I guess Im just conflicted because it would be good to take advantage of their clear differences and rank them separately. obviously we cant rank every set for every different ou pokemon so it was nice to see a clear split between the two different sets

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Thats true, I guess Im just conflicted because it would be good to take advantage of their clear differences and rank them separately. obviously we cant rank every set for every different ou pokemon so it was nice to see a clear split between the two different sets

Of course. Any free setup for a sweeper is nice. But a wallbreaker also enjoys being capable of 2HKOing the entire metagame.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You can look at a team and say which charizard makes more sense on that team, since I'm right at least 90% of the time, I'd say that fails the unpredictable criteria.

This.
I would like to point out that this site has an article about guessing Arceus' formes from team preview: http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue26/arceus_formes
Keep in mind that Arceus is no longer an S-rank pokemon.

Now, if it's possible to make an educate guess about a pokemon with 18 different formes and be right most of the time, it shouldn't be too hard to do so with a pokemon with just two formes, especially when you consider that each of them only plays one distinct role (physical sweepers vs special attacker).

This is complete nonsense. Just because you guess it right often doesn't mean anything. It's always a guessing game. You never know beforehand for certain which set a pokemon will run. The fact that Charizard has two Mega formes with completely different stats and movesets just proves that it is one of the most unpredictable pokemon in the current OU metagame. I'm really not going to elaborate on this. This statement is ridiculous, and the fact that people actually agree with it is just... saddening.

 

[effyouzion]

Highlighting option isn't enough for you? What I meant is that Manaphy has 2 methods of full-healing; you can still use RestTalk Manaphy. While HydraRest can be exploited, it's not like Tyranitar and YZard are risk-free switch-ins, since boosted Scalds can still sting even under their respective weather, and what can they do if Manaphy Rain Dances (again) on the switch?

Underspeeding the Volt Switch lets you Scald switch-ins, while outspeeding the Volt Switch lets you Calm Mind to weaken it. It's up to personal preference here.

I won't deny Pressure being a selling point for Suicune (though using a faster Pokemon that can 3HKO Suicune isn't quite the best example, seeing as it will KO Cune before it wakes up). That said:

0 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 150-178 (37.12 - 44.05%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO

What you calced for Suicune was an Adamant Kyurem-B with 0 Attack EVs, which doesn't exist. Both Manaphy and Suicune avoid a 2HKO from 0 Atk Kyu-B, but both get totalled by any physical variant of Kyu-B.

Pressure is nice for Suicune, but Hydration can be just as good an advantage, allowing Manaphy to rack up boosts more efficiently rather than hoping Suicune selects the right move in its sleep while not getting critted into dangerously low amounts of health.

Hydration rest is not an option in this metagame. Spending 2 turns before you can heal is bad. Ttar/CharY switch ins never need to risk switching in on a scald; they switch in when you are low and about to rest, and now your Manaphy is asleep and set up bait for the rest of the match. You also run into situations where you might need to rest but your rain has 1 turn left. You can't rain dance, because it's already active and will fail, but if you rest, you stay asleep the full 2 turns as rain wears off. Resttalk, flawed as it is, is much more reliable than setting up your own rain and trying to use hydration + rest.

As far as that KyuB calc goes, the specific damage is irrelevant. Manaphy isn't ever 2HKO'd by the one I ran either. The point is that Suicune can PP stall the fusion bolt and survive. Manaphy never can because he doesn't have pressure.

 

[Michael Duran]

I will preface this by saying that, although I've lurked on this thread for quite a while, I haven't read every page, so apologies if this was already discussed. I was wondering why Haxorous is nowhere to be found on the list; I've been running a CB set on him with great success. I understand he is the least used of the three major physical dragons, but he has his advantages. I was just curious as to what makes him so terrible that he isn't even listed, seems like he deserves at least a B :D

 

[Flamebot]

I want to bring in another Pokemon that I believe should be in OU (It was last generation according to what I've seen). Tho, I'm not sure how OU viable it is. That Pokemon is Fraligatr (Excuse my spelling if it is incorrect). Not sure if it can survive a CB brave bird, but SR can stop that from happening. Now, here is why tho. Sheer force is an amazing abillity, and LO can be stacked on to of that to make you have even more power, and Super power doesn't give a stat drop with sheer force. This could allow for more ivestment In bulk. But Fraligatr has Aqua jet and Priority is pretty good, not to mention it can run a DD set to atempt to outspeed other Priority users. Plus new items such as AV (Probally not, but maybe) and WP (Hmm, Calcultor is being stupid so I cant se if he can make use of this item). I'm not sure on any calculations, ao this post could be ignored but I think Fraligatr needs to be looked over some more, and a new analysis, maybe some more tankish sets are possible. Not to mention the move pool this monster has....

Water, is still a great typing, he has Priority(Which I'm not sure on this but I think it has more relevance this generation). It doesn't like MegaSaur or Mega Luke much tho, Mega Luke could die tho if Fraligtr happens to get possibly +2 he can likely beat mega luke (Sheer force LO AJ should do it to.

I'm thinking it does belong in OU, not surewhere but I'm sure Iif it does, A more experienced player could determine where.

I'm almost certian tho, that it wont be any less than UU but I could very well be wrong. Fraligtrs stats are not the greatest but netheir are some OU pokemon.

Any thoughts on this tho?

 

[SergantGold]

I want to bring in another Pokemon that I believe should be in OU (It was last generation according to what I've seen). Tho, I'm not sure how OU viable it is. That Pokemon is Fraligatr (Excuse my spelling if it is incorrect). Not sure if it can survive a CB brave bird, but SR can stop that from happening. Now, here is why tho. Sheer force is an amazing abillity, and LO can be stacked on to of that to make you have even more power, and Super power doesn't give a stat drop with sheer force. This could allow for more ivestment In bulk. But Fraligatr has Aqua jet and Priority is pretty good, not to mention it can run a DD set to atempt to outspeed other Priority users. Plus new items such as AV (Probally not, but maybe) and WP (Hmm, Calcultor is being stupid so I cant se if he can make use of this item). I'm not sure on any calculations, ao this post could be ignored but I think Fraligatr needs to be looked over some more, and a new analysis, maybe some more tankish sets are possible. Not to mention the move pool this monster has....

Water, is still a great typing, he has Priority(Which I'm not sure on this but I think it has more relevance this generation). It doesn't like MegaSaur or Mega Luke much tho, Mega Luke could die tho if Fraligtr happens to get possibly +2 he can likely beat mega luke (Sheer force LO AJ should do it to.

I'm thinking it does belong in OU, not surewhere but I'm sure Iif it does, A more experienced player could determine where.

I'm almost certian tho, that it wont be any less than UU but I could very well be wrong. Fraligtrs stats are not the greatest but netheir are some OU pokemon.

Any thoughts on this tho?

I am pretty sure Sheer Force is unrealeased on Fearaligator. if it was realeased then it could be OU material

 

[Colonel M]

Sheer Force Feraligatr isn't released.

Also lol at predicting the Charizards. Sun teams can utilize X very effectively. They both work well on the majority of similar teams.

Also please refrain from calling Mono Attacking Manaphy "Cro-". There is no CroDos. There is no CroManaphy. There is only CroCrune due to Cromat.