XY Suspect Testing Round 1 np: Michael Jackson - (extreme)Speed Demon (READ POST #1278)

[Jaroda]

Regarding Genesect I think one of the reasons many people are on the fence about him is because he doesn't usually sweep. And its usually the pokemon that can sweep so well, Like Mega Lucario, that scream the most broken. But while he may not sweep, he sure does have an obscene damage-dealt:damage-taken ratio. Frankly, this guy is hard to hit and hits hard, mainly thanks to U-Turn which unlike Landorus-T for example, gets STAB... and a potential item boost... and a potential Download boost too. Genesect, like Mega Gengar did, has the luxury of picking its fights. U-Turn is almost always a safe option for it and it can get it off a lot during the course of a match and the only times it wouldn't is if it happened to be able to revenge something on the spot with plenty of viable mixed attacks. Priority may exist but again, Genesect gets to pick his battles and can always U-Turn out of whatever counter you try to throw in its face. How are you going to make up for that outside of something like Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn or Garchomp? And this is of course pointless because Genesect frequently carries moves that both are 4x weak to. Spikes would be great to wear him down with, but Genesect fits very well onto HO teams its impossible to find the time. Like was said, he's great at wearing you down. Now as to whether he should be banned I'm not entirely sure yet. But I'm totally willing to make an alt and use some combination of him and Mega Luke and Deo S on the same team and see how easy it is to get to 1700.

Deoxys S is simply really fast and has appropriate power considering the creep as well as bulk. Hazards seem a misuse of his potential, he's unparalleled as a revenge killer, with enough power and move variety to make switches very hard for your opponent is you actually abuse his offensive sets. Taunt is great on something that fast too. I'm thinking he'll be manageable in OU though.

Mega Lucario does not need my input. You've all seen what people have said in this thread.

 

[Pridy]

Have a hard time seeing any scenario where Lucarionite won't be sent to ubers. Don't really feel like repeating what has been/will be said so I'll be brief:
-112 Speed putting it just ahead of thundurus means it is extremely fast and not many things can revenge it without having to rely on a choice scarf
-Absurdly powerful STAB options that can easily 2hko many resistances before setup unless they invest heavily in whichever spectrum Lucario is hitting from AND resist STAB
-Answers to the Physical and Special variant are very different and you can never really know which spectrum it is going to hit from so you are often put in a situation where you have to guess and hope that the check you send in is effective against that specific Lucario set.
-Ways of getting past its "traditional checks", For example Talonflame is foiled by a +2 Extremespeed or unboosted one after rocks. Aegislash is OHKO'd by a +2 EQ, a common switchin to Mega Lucario, Vacuum Wave slams Greninja attempting to outspeed and ohko with a hydro pump, +2 Ice Punch destroys any Zapdos.

You may be inclined to say that "Mega Lucario doesn't have 8 moveslots" and yes this is true, but the thing is that MegaLucario's STAB options are so powerful that it can often be enough to take out the grand majority of an opposing team and by just foiling your check with a move you don't expect, it can just sweep your team like that.

Genesect, the scarf set is really nothing that notable but rather the Choice Bander and mixed Life Orb variants that can tear apart and punch severe holes in teams. Dunno I personally don't think it should be quite banned, at least not yet. Genesect does not have a very easy time against many pokemon that are very common in the current OU metagame: any Mega Charizard, Talonflame, Aegislash, Heatran, AV Conkeldurr to name a few. If it has a Scarf, it is not powerful at all and is pretty much forced to always be guessing because locking itself in the wrong move with a Choice Scarf can put yourself at a big disadvantage. If it is CB or LO (much harder to deal with than Scarf, admittedly) it is prone to any faster, strong attacker of which there are many considering that 99 speed is nothing that great.

Obviously a top tier threat, but never have I felt like it was nearly impossible to deal with a Genesect (Like it was with Mgar, Mkang, and now Mega Lucario) so I do not think it should be banned quite yet.

Deoxys-S on the fence, can't really give an opinion on it. The Spike stack set is not even that great anymore and to be honest, Deoxys-Defense is a far more threatening Suicide Lead Hazard Setter because it can actually potentially set up a lot more hazards than Deoxys-S can (I actually believe Deoxys-Defense should be suspected because I find the support it gives to Hyper Offensive teams to be often way too overwhelming, especially with the advent of Defog and Bisharp, but that is a topic for another time)

So I think the best set Deoxys-Speed should be running is the Life Orb mixed attacker. Which often consists of Psycho Boost / Fire Coverage / Ice beam / Superpower. Sometimes they fit Extreme Speed in over Ice beam or Superpower.

This is obviously a very good cleaner in the late game and can be quite threatening to frailer, offensive teams that have lost their powerful priority user (or simply don't have one).
Personally and from watching others' battles, I have never found an instance where Deoxys-S shows any hint of being "too much for OU", Psycho Boost boosted by Life Orb is strong, but not absurdly strong. And the rest of his moves are quite weak unless you are either a) a frail attacker and x2 weak to it or b) 4x weak to it

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I agree with you on the Genesect call. His power and unpredictability are an extreme nuisance and he is very difficult to take down, even when making correct plays.

Genesect is not as unpredictable as, say, Mega Lucario or the Mega Charizards. Usually, regardless of its EVs or item, it has U-Turn and its known special moves, the coveted Ice Beam and Flamethrower, although players do have to watch out for Thunderbolt or Iron Head. U-Turn, Ice Beam, and Flamethrower are on most sets, and are not exotic or niche sets that enable Genesect to get past a particular counter. Interesting, the usage statistics indicate that the later is underutilized as it is an invaluable tool allow it to hax things to death with STAB and a potential Download boost. The Shift Gear set is an exception to this as it usually does not run U-Turn. Extreme Speed allows it to clean up against weakened Pokemon, but once it uses it, it probably revealed it is carrying a Choice Band.

I do not think the Expert Belt set should be used as a part of an argument for its banning. Isn't bluffing and luring a part of competitive Pokemon? And one should be wary that Genesect can carry Expert Belt, and realize that switching in something that can tank an ostensibly Choice-locked Ice Beam on the assumption Genesect is locked into it is a calculated risk.

Still, hazard damage compromises its ability to act as a revenge killer against Mega Luc and Pinsir, and it cannot U-Turn against a Gliscor because it may use Genesect as sub bait if it predicts the U-Turn. Rocky Helmet and Protect really hamper the Scarf set, but Rocky Helmet does require one to predict a U-Turn.

Since Genesect does run a Choice Scarf most of the time, perhaps the best way to counter it, aside from running specific counters such as AV Conkeldurr or Heatran, is not to run multiple Pokemon that are weak to Fire, Ice, or Bug moves, so it will be forced to switch out or be locked-in a suboptimal move. That would usually force it out once it makes a revenge kill.
---
I am reluctant to ban it, and I am unconvinced by arguments primarily based on its ability to generate momentum through U-turn spamming since it is not impervious to residual damage and that compromises its ability to act as a revenge killer against HO treats such as Mega Pinsir. Although, I really have little sympathy for players for have their Gliscor or Ferrothorn killed when it was predicting a U-Turn as this is a part of the game (perhaps because I really hate those things), I would be more receptive to arguments concerning the pressure by its mere presence on a team, generated by its movepool, in the opening stages of the game. Stealth Rock setters such as Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Garchomp, Skarmory, and Tyranitar are especially vulnerable to its common moves.

Also, arguments concerning its ability to revenge kill things and clean up due to Download and its movepool would also interest me. Unlike something like Scarf Lando-T who has to use an STAB-less U-Turn, the inaccurate Stone Edge, and the predictable Earthquake, Genesect has reliable moves it could spam, with the possibility of pseudo-STAB for its special moves, and makes it less prediction reliant for its user.

 

[LuS]

Though I'm pro-ban for Genesect, there is a reliable counter to it in Rotom-H who resists all of it's moves on the standard set. Rotom-H can also volt switch out upon the U-turn/Hard switch. The only flaw with using Rotom-H is the SR weakness but defog/spin support help that.

This is a custom set Rotom-H, so bear with me. Here are some calcs of Rotom-H's effectiveness.

Choice scarf:
+1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-H: 51-60 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO (For when you switch in)
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Rotom-H: 58-68 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 5HKO

Shift gear: (I'm calcing it on Download boost on a teammate, and shift gear upon the switch in)
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-H: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-H: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Blaze Kick vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-H: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 97.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Genesect Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Rotom-H: 61-71 (20 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

It works fairly well against Genesect, except for Douse Drive Genesect and +2 Extreme-Speed Life Orb'd Genesect.

 

[Chrattac]

Only thing that can handle pretty much every Mega Luke set I ahve ran across is Moltres specially designed for that job, even Zapdos dies if Luke is running Ice Punch as does Moltres if there is Thunder Punch which, luckily, is very rare. Moltres with non boosting defensive nature and only 52 defense investment along with 248 HP and positive 208 SpD takes anything from +2 (SpA or Ark) Mega-Luke and OHKOing back with single flamethrower. Problem is 4×SR weakness tho, but hazards are more manageable in this gen anyway.

Genesect sure is annoying but what imo makes it broken is how many sets it can be running and you never know because it always just u-turns back and forth until it decides to show wheter it is Scarf, Banded or the hardest to counter one – Shift Gear. Although Scarf special variants are most common and very easy to deal with (I use AV Magnezone) it contains same problems as mega luke, you are guaranteed to lose at least one poké if you predict its set wrongly and even it might sweep your entire team if you are predicting scarf and too late you see it setting up eg. Shift Gear.

Deoxys-S's problem is how versatile it is along with that speed which makes it very hard to even revenge if you don't pack priority or your priority user(s) have been worn down or even fainted before Deo comes in.

Personally most iffy banned to ubers is Deo-S, but I'd like to see them all go for healthier meta since now you have to use too much time to counter them all and their all sets and thus restricts team building options. And if you don't prepare or overlook for some specific set (it being rare or something) the things just sweep right off the bat. Like for genesect, since most are running scarfs you are not maybe prepared for shift gear and boom, the one that you face just outright kills everything and their mothers.

Am not eligible to vote (ELO topping at 1450+) but I guess I still can throw my 2 cents...

 

[Ewil]

My two cents:

M-Lucario: He's broken like everyone says for the arguments that everyone says. He has few counters and too much ATK, SPA and SPE and even his defenses combined with his typing are good, good ability, Nasty Plot, Sword Dance, good STAB and good coverage.

Genesect: he's the king of momentum gaining thanks to the STAB on U-Turn (an immunity-less momentum gaining move) coming from a 120 ATK with a possible +1 from the Download ability and a possible +1 from a very viable Choice Band item. Other than this he has one of the best priority in game (if not the best), good coverage move. Fire-Type and another few mons are the best counters to this monster and he can always U-Turn out to bring a pokémon that can get the advantage. Other than that, he can also use setup-sets like the Rock Polish or Shift Gear ones and he can bluff choice items with an Expert Belt set. I really like how this pokemon function and his design, but i think he needs to go.

Deoxys-S: This is the hardest to judge. He has two viable sets in revenge killer and hazard setter. The hazard setter is often a suicide set that can be punished with a Defog user, but that's when Bisharp come in and gain that sexy boost, the constant pressure of the Deo-S team is essential to keep the work that Deo did in the first 1-2 turns, so he might not always functions.
The offensive set, on the other hand, can be used first turn to bluff the more common hazard setter and score an OHKO, then starts preserving it for the revenge killing duties since he's faster then a lot of Scarf users. The coverage moves are what you have to guess, he's a bit too unpredictable since he's coverage depends on his team needs.
My real thoughs are that if Deo-S don't get the boot this time, he will be very broken in the next turn, so i think he needs to go too, but i've to test him more.

 

[Lazybeef]

Lucario-Mega: Broken, obviously. I always find myself dedicating two team slots to deal with it, and even if his checks are perfectly viable in OU (aegi,lando-t, thundurus, volc etc.) I feel that it puts a strain on teambuilding, even moreso than talonflame and pinsir-mega. It can sweep pretty much any kind of team with very little support, and his attacks are very spammable, especially when the opponent loses his ghost type. His power is too much for OU. Ban.

Genesect: Not broken imo, but worthy of a test. The scarf set can be very annoying to deal with but most teams have something to take a u-turn, and if it locks itself into something else this can easily lead to genesect losing momentum itself. If forcing favourable match-ups was ban-worthy then rotom-w would also be ban worthy. A bulkier metagame which is also more friendly to fire types helps to balance it out. The better sets are probably the physical life orb sets with ESpeed, but I don't see how those sets are broken either. It is very unpredictable but that could be said for many mons, and does not by itself constitute a ban. It has to have some individual set that's broken to deserve a ban. I personally find gensect powerful but still balanced in the current metagame.

Deoxys-S: Not broken. Even if it is hard to defog vs hyper offense nobody can say that it hasn't become way easier to deal with deoxys-S this gen.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Genesect: Not broken imo, but worthy of a test. The scarf set can be very annoying to deal with but most teams have something to take a u-turn, and if it locks itself into something else this can easily lead to genesect losing momentum itself. If forcing favourable match-ups was ban-worthy then rotom-w would also be ban worthy.

Indeed, just because it has a STAB Volt/Turn move does not make something ban worthy. Other Volt/Turn team members make him more effective and give him free switches since it does not have the bulk to switch into most attacks.

----

Genesect: The Scarf set fits so many different playing styles. A more aggressive player may try to predict a switch-in and KO it with its appropriate coverage move, while a more conservative player, such as myself, will try to preserve it against offense teams so it can revenge kill a speedy target with strong neutral priority. I try to be aggressive sometimes if I feel confident I can predict a switch or to signal that I am not predictable.

Due to its coverage and Download, Scarf Genesect is a premiere OU revenge killer, with only Talonflame forcing me to use the indefinite article.

 

[Rotosect]

Deoxys-S isn't that good.
For starters it's predictable. Yes you read that right, I said predictable.
If it's used as a lead then you know it's the standard entry hazard setter that Deoxys-D does a million times better in this metagame. Deo-S will usually lay down SR and a layer of Spikes, only to get KO'd and have them removed by Defog later in the match. Deoxys-D will be able to come in and lay down hazards multiple times durng the match, thanks to its superior bulk and the ability to make use of Recover.
If it's not leading then Deo-S is most likely running the LO set, often lauded as one of the best revenge killers in the tier, but that's where its major flaw is: it's strictly a revenge killer.
It's not like Scarf Garchomp or Talonflame that can double as wallbreakers or sweepers if you need them to do so, Deo-S's attacks are just too weak to do anything other than revenge killing weakened targets.
Against teams carrying bulky offensive powerhouses such as Aegislash, Kyurem-B and Mega Mawile it's pretty much dead weight. It doesn't help that its most powerful moves, Psycho Boost and Superpower, have those nasty Atk/Sp.Atk drops which turns it into set up bait.

I don't have much to say about Mega Lucario and Genesect other than I agree they're too strong for OU. It's Deoxys-S the one that shouldn't be banned.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Deoxys-S isn't that good.
For starters it's predictable. Yes you read that right, I said predictable.
If it's used as a lead then you know it's the standard entry hazard setter that Deoxys-D does a million times better in this metagame. Deo-S will usually lay down SR and a layer of Spikes, only to get KO'd and have them removed by Defog later in the match. Deoxys-D will be able to come in and lay down hazards multiple times durng the match, thanks to its superior bulk and the ability to make use of Recover.
If it's not leading then Deo-S is most likely running the LO set, often lauded as one of the best revenge killers in the tier, but that's where its major flaw is: it's strictly a revenge killer.
It's not like Scarf Garchomp or Talonflame that can double as wallbreakers or sweepers if you need them to do so, Deo-S's attacks are just too weak to do anything other than revenge killing weakened targets.
Against teams carrying bulky offensive powerhouses such as Aegislash, Kyurem-B and Mega Mawile it's pretty much dead weight. It doesn't help that its most powerful moves, Psycho Boost and Superpower, have those nasty Atk/Sp.Atk drops which turns it into set up bait.

I don't have much to say about Mega Lucario and Genesect other than I agree they're too strong for OU. It's Deoxys-S the one that shouldn't be banned.

Deoxys-S can also act as an offensive lead, since it has moves (Ice Beam and Fire Punch) that KO common Stealth Rock leads.

 

[T-Bolt]

Genesect: Not broken imo, but worthy of a test. The scarf set can be very annoying to deal with but most teams have something to take a u-turn, and if it locks itself into something else this can easily lead to genesect losing momentum itself. If forcing favourable match-ups was ban-worthy then rotom-w would also be ban worthy. A bulkier metagame which is also more friendly to fire types helps to balance it out. The better sets are probably the physical life orb sets with ESpeed, but I don't see how those sets are broken either. It is very unpredictable but that could be said for many mons, and does not by itself constitute a ban. It has to have some individual set that's broken to deserve a ban. I personally find gensect powerful but still balanced in the current metagame.

Except that the 'something that takes U-turn' is forced to switch in repeatedly into Genesect's, and there's only one Pokemon that can switch in to U-Turn and manage to take any of Genesect's other attacks repeatedly (heatran). Unlike Rotom-W, Genesect not only forces favourable matchups, but is also more powerful thanks to download, and has a much wider move pool to punish any wrong switch ins. Adding to that, a Ground type Pokemon can give a scarfed Rotom user second thoughts about volt switching, but nothing other than Shedinja is immune to U-turn, allowing Genesect to spam it with impunity.

While the Metagame is indeed bulkier, it also provided several immensely powerful Pokemon like Mega-Mawile, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir and Mega-Lucario, all of which can take advantage of the momentum Genesect provides, and setup a sweep/ punch holes in your opponents team.

Though a lot of people say the other sets are better, I think the choice scarf sets are really what make Genesect ban worthy, they turn any U-Turn weak Pokemon into free momentum. You know something is an unhealthy influence when you have to hesitate every time you send a Latios or Tyranitar when the opponent's team has a Genesect.

So yeah, the combination of power, unpredictability and utility that Genesect has makes it banworthy IMO.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Actually, when I fight deoxys S, I just send in something bulky and attack, attack attack-- regardless of what set it could be.

If it's LO, I'll overwhelm and kill it. If it's hazards, I'll take care of them later-- no reason NOT to have Defog or Spin on the team since one is so easy to incorporate. I will be very surprised if Deo-S gets banned.

 

[Debury]

The commotion over Genesect is very harsh for people who are pro ban. It is much like the group of individuals who swear against using legendary Pokemon. Its main set is usually the scarf one which causes chip damage over time to your physical wall but it isn't much different to Rotom-W's Volt Switch where the opponent can simply switch out the more favorable match.
Like with most battles it is a team of six different Pokemon and Genesect can be removed over time due to it not being particularly bulky. Its versatility of moves can really help galvanize teams who have particular gaps in their arsenal but at the same time it could be much worse. In most sets you find that Genesect doesn't work too much with its STAB attacks outside of U-Turn in most Choice Scarf sets. Even then it is underpowered because people are using special effort value spreads so the physical move gets diluted somewhat.
The inclusion of Genesect in OU isn't a bad one. It is down here for a reason and it needs a little more time to show its best form. It isn't overpowered and is strongly countered hard by Heatran in a big way. As I mentioned earlier, it is a great utility/pivot Pokemon and justifies its high usage for the job it does and does very well.

Lucarionite is another level though. Credit to the people who use Mega Lucario effectively but also at the same time the people using it for a reason. Mega Lucario has the capability of obliterating pretty much anything in the tier with very little set up usage. If it does set up a Swords Dance or a Nasty Plot or two then good luck to those trying to take it down as it has access to some solid priority moves which can be used above the priority moves that the opponent could be using to chip away at it. The item has a great effect on the way the tier is being shaped with people almost having to make a team to specifically counter one Pokemon which isn't particularly fair.
I consider the use of Lucarionite as exploitive abuse in the worst form possible. The typing of Lucario doesn't particularly help either. The argument behind why Talonflame isn't necessarily suspect is pretty much down to the decking it takes from Stealth Rock or any well predicted punch while it is switching in. Lucario can handle rocks and spikes pretty well and it only needs one opportunity to end the battle in 5 turns flat.
The banning of the item might bring back the appreciation of what regular Lucario can do for teams but at this time people are more prone to using the Lucarionite to exploit its seemingly overpowered skills and attributes.

On Deoxys-S, I cannot particularly judge from personal experience. Its versatility of moves to cover its counters only help it flourish well and also can keep opponents on their toes with the actual moves that it could have. It isn't too much of a problem though from my own personal experiences but I have no place to comment on whether it should be banned or not.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

M-Lucario takes a large chunk of health from even neutral attacks.You can attack it on the turn it SD's.

Having a few Pokemon that can outspeed positive-nature base 90s are helpful since it prevents them from being set-up bait. Often can has to sac a Pokemon in order to weaken Mega Luc for something like Conkeldurr's Mach Punch. Life Orb Iron Fist KOs it, IIRC, but it does about ~60-70% with the Assault Vest variant.

Still, you need something with strong priority to kill it from a Banded Azumarill, or Conkeldurr or Breloom's Mach Punch.

However, requiring strong priority or something that outspeeds a positive nature base 90 that can hit it super-effectively or a strong priority user to finish up hinders team building.

 

[PkMn Gravija]

So no one has caught on to the fact that download is essentially a free choice item which means that although people are saying "herp derp it's easy to beat it just predict this or that" (which isn't the case since the only legit OU counter is Heatran, while Rotom-H is dwelling in UU-) are completely unaware of this it seems. Lets take the Choice Scarf set, ok now Genesect is nice and speedy making it a premier revenge killer of anything not faster + scarfed or called deoxys-s (who lol is on the suspect too). It just came in on your special wall, it gets a free choice band, it comes in on your physical wall it gets a free choice specs this is essentially why it's broken offensively. Not to mention it's god-tier movepool, which includes psychic if it cares about conkeldur enough to run it. 120/120 mixed offenses, free choice item boosts simply for being used in battle, a tonne of viable movesets and items to boost its offensive capabilities....

Actually lets take a time to analyse this.... this is how genesect really works, there is no set movelist, no easy counters outside of heatran, there isn't a set item it runs, it doesn't have to spam U-Turn for momentum. Genesect is broken because it is essentially a swiss army knife and each blade/tool on it is sharper than the next. You design Genesects movepool (and boy does it have a beautiful movepool) to eliminate whatever the hell you want, it is essentially Mega-Gengar without the shadow tag (except with hardcore dual spectrum damage). It chooses what it wants to kill, what you designed its movepool to kill. Genesect may or may not be offensively uber by definition but it most definately fits the support criteria that got Mega Gengar banned. That is why Genesect is broken, that is exactly why it deserves to be banned and I'm shocked and ashamed that out of 15 pages no-one has really acknowledged this as fact.

Now you couple all of this with the item of choice for it's job and you have a monster of a support mon on your team, tell me I'm wrong I dare you.

 

[Meleotta3]

Having a few Pokemon that can outspeed positive-nature base 90s are helpful since it prevents them from being set-up bait. Often can has to sac a Pokemon in order to weaken Mega Luc for something like Conkeldurr's Mach Punch. Life Orb Iron Fist KOs it, IIRC, but it does about ~60-70% with the Assault Vest variant.

Still, you need something with strong priority to kill it from a Banded Azumarill, or Conkeldurr or Breloom's Mach Punch.

If you invest enough EV's into Togekiss's sp.a, it OHKOes Mega Luke

 

[PkMn Gravija]

If you invest enough EV's into Togekiss's sp.a, it OHKOes Mega Luke

If you invest in bullet punch or flash cannon it OHKOes Togekiss...

 

[Serrak]

Has anyone done calcs on +3 attack Mega Lucario? Justified is (arguably) it's best ability before Mega-Evolving, and Knock Off is a common move on one of the things Luke is best able to set up on (Mandibuzz) and one of the things Luke is best able to force out (Bisharp) combined with the fact that switching Luke into it keeps another team-mate from losing an item. I'm aware people were trying to get off of the topic of Luke, but the possible Justified boost didn't seem to have been considered.

 

[BlackyXD]

Has anyone done calcs on +3 attack Mega Lucario? Justified is (arguably) it's best ability before Mega-Evolving, and Knock Off is a common move on one of the things Luke is best able to set up on (Mandibuzz) and one of the things Luke is best able to force out (Bisharp) combined with the fact that switching Luke into it keeps another team-mate from losing an item. I'm aware people were trying to get off of the topic of Luke, but the possible Justified boost didn't seem to have been considered.

Justified is almost a non factor because of the fact their is almost no reason not to mega evolve on the turn lucario comes so, justified is very very rare to activate since the second you mega evolve the ability is changed to adaptability. So the chances you actually can get a Justified boost is very low

 

[Jaroda]

Justified is almost a non factor because of the fact their is almost no reason not to mega evolve on the turn lucario comes so, justified is very very rare to activate since the second you mega evolve the ability is changed to adaptability. So the chances you actually can get a Justified boost is very low

His point was you switch Justified Lucario into a predicted Knock Off, and then Megavolve the following turn.

While it is possible, few people would want to risk their premiere sweeper to a miscalculation. Would YOU switch Lucario into Conkeldurr if you predicted a Knock Off coming? In high level play, this is one very risky and unreliable strategy.

 

[BurningMan]

His point was you switch Justified Lucario into a predicted Knock Off, and then Megavolve the following turn.

While it is possible, few people would want to risk their premiere sweeper to a miscalculation. Would YOU switch Lucario into Conkeldurr if you predicted a Knock Off coming? In high level play, this is one very risky and unreliable strategy.

maybe not into Conk, but Mandibuzz, Bisharp and other defensive mons with foul play/knock off etc. are pretty easy to switch into since they can't really hurt luke.

 

[Jaroda]

maybe not into Conk, but Mandibuzz, Bisharp and other defensive mons with foul play/knock off etc. are pretty easy to switch into since they can't really hurt luke.

I considered those and while yes its possible, I still wouldn't say it is a reliable enough strategy to necessitate factoring into calculations for the sake of suspect testing, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Sarpyn]

I'm not that of an active forum member, but i spend my time in showdown a lot, and meta gaming is one of my favorite thing to do in my free times. I don't really want to talk about mega luke, since everything has been mentioned about him, and about deo-s i really don't have much experience against him (only couple of deo-sharps, which is a different case), neither i used him in my team. So i will refrain giving any comments about them.

First thing i would like to mention about genesect is the play style it has. Scarf U-turn spam. This is a really cheap but efficient tactic to utilize, and it is not that interesting to talk about. But there is something special about this set that no other volt turner has, download. Download gives it a different mechanic and depending on which mon it is against, it changes it's offensive stats. This gives an additional depth to a pokemon that no other pokemon has. (yes porygon-z has it aswell, but it can't use the physical boost) Something similar for this is mixed salamence. If a salamence is against physicaly defensive pokemon it can get a moxie boost with a strong draco meteor, or dent with a physical move if it's a specially defensive pokemon that it is facing against. This is a interesting concept of a play style that not many pokemon has, being able to play around your weaknesses.

The above statement that i made may be the pure reason for mega luke ban, since a simple miss prediction can doom your game. But it's not the case with genesect. Yes it will dent you if you eat a +1 U-turn with a pokemon that doesn't resist it, but it's not going to sweep entire teams with it, and there are many ways to play around. In this genesect's case, more than the damage, the momentum U-turn brings is the main problem. So I believe the only reason genesect should be considered ban worthy is for the damage potential of a move with so less risk has.

Let's leave why genesect is strong for now, and let's focus more on what genesect has to offer for our meta game. A mixed unpredictable set, that can adapt to many situations. Do you know what this means? it is like before team preview back in gen 4, you had to scout your enemy, you didn't have much idea of your oponent right of the bat, and scouting and adapting was an important aspect. Right now everyone is so used to team preview that most people expect same thing from most pokemons. Of course back in gen 4 pokemons had mostly same sets as well, but not having team preview had additional effort requirement for scouting and information management.

What genesect brings to a team is far more than ideal for balance, everyone can slap a genesect into their team without much thought. But i believe that genesect offers an entirely different play style that not many pokemon can achieve. I think cookie cutter teams that you can guess the play style just by looking at team preview, shouldn't be the norm, and we need more unpredictable pokemons so we can get back to our roots of pokemon. We shouldn't be able to guess what opponents tactic will be just by team preview.
I tend to play with anti meta game teams alot, and using unexpected pokemons can win you a game quite effectively. Of course some people might think this is a cheap way to win, but it has come to this, if an opponent doesn't pack the exact same sets as the norm, people struggle against it and tend to whine about it. This situation has to be the flavor of the game, it shouldn't be considered as abusing of meta game.

I think i derailed a little, but i'm against genesect ban, because what it has to offer is far more valuable for the metagame than any pokemon that is going to fill up it's slot can offer when genesect is banned.

 

[TheDuckChris]

Honestly I'm on the fence for both genesect and deoxys. Both have similar levels of versatility, and facing them down is always intimidating. One way to consider if something is overpowered is to think of how you use it not how others use it against you. Really overpowered Pokemon will win you games even if the rest of your team is shit. This was seen with gengarite, blaziken, and especially khan.

Versatility on the opponents side often translates to 4MSS when you're constructing your own teams. For example, deoxys really wants spikes/taunt/fire punch/superpower/psycho boost plus magic coat or ice beam to function as a powerful lead. Genesect as well, loses a lot of its effectiveness without u-turn or any of it's coverage moves, but can't beat priority without espeed.

What is potentially broken then, is their ability to beat potential checks because of the danger in scouting them. The situation is similar to keldeo's ability to run different hidden powers to beat its counters. The situation may be a bit more extreme, but similar. Genesect without thunderbolt loses to gyarados, crocune etc. deoxys without psycho boost loses to Tentacruel in a similar way. I guess we just need to look at how much damage they can do during the scouting phase

 

[Colonial]

I'm not that of an active forum member, but i spend my time in showdown a lot, and meta gaming is one of my favorite thing to do in my free times. I don't really want to talk about mega luke, since everything has been mentioned about him, and about deo-s i really don't have much experience against him (only couple of deo-sharps, which is a different case), neither i used him in my team. So i will refrain giving any comments about them.

First thing i would like to mention about genesect is the play style it has. Scarf U-turn spam. This is a really cheap but efficient tactic to utilize, and it is not that interesting to talk about. But there is something special about this set that no other volt turner has, download. Download gives it a different mechanic and depending on which mon it is against, it changes it's offensive stats. This gives an additional depth to a pokemon that no other pokemon has. (yes porygon-z has it aswell, but it can't use the physical boost) Something similar for this is mixed salamence. If a salamence is against physicaly defensive pokemon it can get a moxie boost with a strong draco meteor, or dent with a physical move if it's a specially defensive pokemon that it is facing against. This is a interesting concept of a play style that not many pokemon has, being able to play around your weaknesses.

The above statement that i made may be the pure reason for mega luke ban, since a simple miss prediction can doom your game. But it's not the case with genesect. Yes it will dent you if you eat a +1 U-turn with a pokemon that doesn't resist it, but it's not going to sweep entire teams with it, and there are many ways to play around. In this genesect's case, more than the damage, the momentum U-turn brings is the main problem. So I believe the only reason genesect should be considered ban worthy is for the damage potential of a move with so less risk has.

Let's leave why genesect is strong for now, and let's focus more on what genesect has to offer for our meta game. A mixed unpredictable set, that can adapt to many situations. Do you know what this means? it is like before team preview back in gen 4, you had to scout your enemy, you didn't have much idea of your oponent right of the bat, and scouting and adapting was an important aspect. Right now everyone is so used to team preview that most people expect same thing from most pokemons. Of course back in gen 4 pokemons had mostly same sets as well, but not having team preview had additional effort requirement for scouting and information management.

What genesect brings to a team is far more than ideal for balance, everyone can slap a genesect into their team without much thought. But i believe that genesect offers an entirely different play style that not many pokemon can achieve. I think cookie cutter teams that you can guess the play style just by looking at team preview, shouldn't be the norm, and we need more unpredictable pokemons so we can get back to our roots of pokemon. We shouldn't be able to guess what opponents tactic will be just by team preview.
I tend to play with anti meta game teams alot, and using unexpected pokemons can win you a game quite effectively. Of course some people might think this is a cheap way to win, but it has come to this, if an opponent doesn't pack the exact same sets as the norm, people struggle against it and tend to whine about it. This situation has to be the flavor of the game, it shouldn't be considered as abusing of meta game.

I think i derailed a little, but i'm against genesect ban, because what it has to offer is far more valuable for the metagame than any pokemon that is going to fill up it's slot can offer when genesect is banned.

While your point of predictability and variety being beneficial to the metagame is a good one, but I'm not sure we should be looking for it in genesect. You yourself said why: Genesect spends most of his time U-Turning, he provides little variety to the metagame. You know exactly what he's going to do from the moment you see him. You might run into non-scarf variants, but I've found you very rarely have to scout him out: physical or special or mixed, the counters, tactics, and responses are all the same. His vaunted movepool most boils down this: Ice beam, Thunderbolt, U-Turn, Fire attack, Steel attack. He's predictable.

He doesn't offer much to the metagame in my opinion because what he does isn't unique or particularly interesting, he just does it better than the competition. There are other mixed attackers, there are other good pivots, losing genesect isn't losing anything for the metagame other than a dominant force that has very negatively effected the viability of any pokemon that he can take advantage of.

Also: I don't understand your final paragraph. I have never seen the opinion expressed that using unorthodox teams is "cheap", it's encouraged in fact. I think you just enraged some noobs after beating them on Showdown and they tried to insult you, lol. I'm also getting the vibe that you think genesect is somehow anti-meta or being banned because he isn't cookie-cutter, though I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding your point there- could you expand on those points a bit please?